Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk

[Takiro]

Perhaps they don't see them as a worthwhile investment with their limited resource situation. With 'Mechs being the predominate focus of the Kindraa all energies maybe focused there with very few things going to aerospace support. Them as see as Mech movers mainly with safcon frequently being invoked in their Trials. 

Politically they run with the Wardens which looking at Coyote and Wolf may have been advantageous to start off in the Political Century but then it turns. Constant Crusader attacks whittle you down over time as both the Toumans of those Clans display a large attrition effect. Kindraa Payne likely looks like them among the Fire Mandrill here and to be fair I doubt they were ever the strongest. Clearly by the time of FM CC their power is waning.

Diplomatically they seem to have respect for Hell's Horses in particular which is contrary to the other Kindraa of the Clan who pretty much hate them. Still, the whole Smythe-Jewel annihilation may have soured Payne somehow on the development of Elementals.

A stubborn streak is the final possibility I can think of. They never got along with Sainze whose feud continues till the end. As it takes two to tango perhaps it is the Payne mentality to forego compromise of any kind. A my way or the highway mentality.

[Angrii]

This does cough up a question I never bothered to contemplate before. Why did Kindraa Payne not invest in an elemental arm? Even a small one. Is this a bias issue? A resources issue? Did the first Payne Elemental sibkos just produce poor Elementals and the Payne leadership just shut the whole thing down?

Perhaps their lack of bloodline diversity is part of the reason. The few heritages they do have may just not be conducive to the Elemental phenotype and/or they've elected to bend their efforts towards keeping their MechWarriors genetically stable (we know that have inbreeding issues).

[Angrii]

Apologies for the double-post but I've stumbled across something while perusing the Rec guides:

The notable pilot for the Elemental III in vol. 24 is a Hell's Horses warrior by the name of Jorge who hails from the obscure bloodline Enriquez. Come to find out, that's a Mandrill legacy! We already knew that the Horses took possession of half of all Smythe, Jewel and Grant legacies but we're not given any proof that those legacies are extant in the modern era.  Now we know at least one Mandrill legacy lives on within the Horses, obscure though it may be. And if Jorge's achievements are any indication, it's a strong one!

[Sjhernan3060]

Apologies for the double-post but I've stumbled across something while perusing the Rec guides:

The notable pilot for the Elemental III in vol. 24 is a Hell's Horses warrior by the name of Jorge who hails from the obscure bloodline Enriquez. Come to find out, that's a Mandrill legacy! We already knew that the Horses took possession of half of all Smythe, Jewel and Grant legacies but we're not given any proof that those legacies are extant in the modern era.  Now we know at least one Mandrill legacy lives on within the Horses, obscure though it may be. And if Jorge's achievements are any indication, it's a strong one!

I love it! Thanks for the info

[Alan Grant]

Good find, and it sent me looking for more.

Another one that might be in the Inner Sphere is members of Bloodname House Schroeder. You can look up that name on sarna and find bloodname members in Clan Wolf and Clan Wolf-in-Exile, but its origin is with the Fire Mandrills.

I don't think we've seen any Schroeders since the Wars of Reaving era though. But it's definitely a contender in my mind for a Mandrill-origin bloodname that may be found in the Inner Sphere in this new era.

Durffey is another one, similar story.

Huddock and Newclay with the Jade Falcons. I could definitely see Newclay remaining among the Jade Falcons. We've seen several prominent Newclays of high rank among the Falcons. So unless those genetic legacies got corrupted by Society tinkering they are probably still around.

[Deadborder]

As per Shrapnel #3, there are hundreds of Bloodnames among the Inner Sphere Clans by 3100. This includes Bloodnames that were previously exclusive to Homeworld Clans, such as N'Buta and Boques. So hypothetically there could be plenty of Mandrill Bloodnames still roaming around.

[wantec]

As per Shrapnel #3, there are hundreds of Bloodnames among the Inner Sphere Clans by 3100. This includes Bloodnames that were previously exclusive to Homeworld Clans, such as N'Buta and Boques. So hypothetically there could be plenty of Mandrill Bloodnames still roaming around.

The way things work, unless the bloodname is listed as exclusive or eliminated, a bloodname could show up in any clan

[Takiro]

Love the minor Bloodhouse finds guys, nice work!

[wantec]

Love the minor Bloodhouse finds guys, nice work!

The Mad Dog (Rec Guide 10) and Gargoyle (Rec Guide 11) have minor bloodname notable pilots

[Sjhernan3060]

Apologies for the double-post but I've stumbled across something while perusing the Rec guides:

The notable pilot for the Elemental III in vol. 24 is a Hell's Horses warrior by the name of Jorge who hails from the obscure bloodline Enriquez. Come to find out, that's a Mandrill legacy! We already knew that the Horses took possession of half of all Smythe, Jewel and Grant legacies but we're not given any proof that those legacies are extant in the modern era.  Now we know at least one Mandrill legacy lives on within the Horses, obscure though it may be. And if Jorge's achievements are any indication, it's a strong one!

Are they still taught that they are from a mandrill origin or died the only thing that matters is who owns the heritage now?

[Angrii]

I very much doubt they would encourage any sense of identity with their Mandrill origins given that their culture was the antithesis of the teamwork oriented Horses.

[Alan Grant]

They probably know the history of their Bloodname House. A lot of identity for that warrior gets attached to that.

But... a lot of this stuff is also tied up in various forms of propaganda and tradition. To the extent the Fire Mandrill stuff comes up it's probably used like a teaching tool on what not to do, what failure looks like (and therefore emphasizing what success looks like). While also celebrating people like the Bloodname House founder and putting that person on a pedestal as one of Kerensky's chosen 800.

We're also talking about a Clan that the Inner Sphere Clans have had no contact with for a long time. That has allowed the Inner Sphere Clans to ensure their version of events is the one that gets told as the story. That's probably also had an impact on these Bloodname Houses and how they tell their story, their history, to their members.

A lot of the pre-Reaving details of the Mandrills probably also gets buried beneath the weight of certain pivotal events.

They were a Homeworlds Clan, who didn't earn the right to come to the Inner Sphere, or find the courage to do so like we did. That speaks to their weakness as a Clan, and to the strength Clan you are a member of. That is part of the Way of the Clans.

They ran afoul of the Wars of Reaving politics, and were effectively part of the effort to drive our Clan from the Homeworlds. The fire they helped start was also the fire that burned them down.

I think the Inner Sphere Clans would emphasize these kind of points. Making the warrior feel grateful that they belong to their current Clan and not the Mandrills.

For more positive lines of thought and pride and inspiration, they'd point to the founding of the Clans in general, and the Bloodname House Founder's role in that. Then more recent events, like their Clan's actions in the Jihad.

The more nuanced Fire Mandrill history probably gets glossed over a bit by all but a small number of history-obsessed warriors within the Bloodname House. Who in turn, recognize the obvious deficiencies and problems with Clan Fire Mandrill. So it remains a topic of mostly historical significance for a few people who find that stuff interesting and a topic worth debating and discussing in a small group setting. While the less-nuanced version that glosses over some parts and emphasizes others is the version of history taught to the majority of warriors, of this or any Bloodname House or Clan.

It's no different in real life. As someone who has been through years of formal education on history. But also studied history as a hobby. Some things get emphasized, and other things do not. As a US Citizen, the formal education experience was learning a lot about a few (admittedly important) pivot points like the American Revolution, the Civil War, WW2, the Great Depression, the Space Race etc. While other events got minimalized, like the Korean War. I believe all I ever got in school on the Korean War was a passing reference and an explanation of it that could be summarized in less than a textbook page and that was it.

At one point after my formal education ended, I became very interested in the Korean War. And there were useful books and websites and videos and documentaries on that topic, and like-minded people out there willing to talk about that in depth. But if you weren't a history buff seeking that out, you could go your entire life and never learn any of that stuff.

So I think the Clan Fire Mandrill history parts of that warrior's heritage would be handled in a similar fashion. A carefully-crafted version that they are taught and told as part of formal education and Bloodname House traditions. To go further is possible, but probably an obsession for a minority.

[Shivetya]

Is Shrapnel #9's Dezgra the first piece of stand-alone Fire Mandrill centric fiction since A Keystone Arch ?

I've got a few arguments here and there, but overall I absolutely loved the piece. Charron-Willard does a fantastic job drip feeding us with new details about Kindraa culture, costume, and attitude while fleshing out the unique character of Kindraa's Payne and Smythe-Jewel. The way the story describes the environment as the characters are interacting, giving us a more candid glimpse into the already (set in 2870) strange culture of the Mandrills, paints this vivid, living picture of the Clan that feels missing from the more straightforward descriptions we see in sourcebooks. 

Also, it wasn't just the Mandrills losing! Well, not entirely. 

What did you all think of it? Gives me hope for a suitably chunky follow-up on the destruction of Smythe-Jewel.     

[Takiro]

I just got my print copy yesterday and am excited to learn about this today.

[Sjhernan3060]

Is Shrapnel #9's Dezgra the first piece of stand-alone Fire Mandrill centric fiction since A Keystone Arch ?

I've got a few arguments here and there, but overall I absolutely loved the piece. Charron-Willard does a fantastic job drip feeding us with new details about Kindraa culture, costume, and attitude while fleshing out the unique character of Kindraa's Payne and Smythe-Jewel. The way the story describes the environment as the characters are interacting, giving us a more candid glimpse into the already (set in 2870) strange culture of the Mandrills, paints this vivid, living picture of the Clan that feels missing from the more straightforward descriptions we see in sourcebooks. 

Also, it wasn't just the Mandrills losing! Well, not entirely. 

What did you all think of it? Gives me hope for a suitably chunky follow-up on the destruction of Smythe-Jewel.     

That’s great to hear I am looking forward to it

[Takiro]

Is that the Kindraa's symbol displayed at the end of the story??  ;)

[Shivetya]

Is that the Kindraa's symbol displayed at the end of the story??  ;)

Must be. Thinking Smythe > Smith > Hammer, and of course Jewel > Gem

A bunch of information on Kindraa Smythe-Jewel we've not (I think) been shown before.

Kindraa Colours: Black and emerald green
General Phenotype: Both producing large Warriors, both producing MechWarriors.
Characteristics: Described as "greedy" as a Kindraa. Smythe almost certainly harbours a greedy streak mixed with an unmandrill-like calculation and quiet confidence. Jewel seems more inward looking, more aware of their greed and more troubled by it.

[truetanker]

As a 666th Mech. Assault Horseman, I find this info historical enough to re-Trial  the results again. ( Reenactment )

Nova Captain Pi
666th Mech.Assault
CHH

[GreekFire]

Of note here is that the 17th Mechanized Strike---a historical formation---got a bit more fleshing out along with its own thematic nickname, the "Thunderhorse Cluster". No insignia, though, but most Alpha Cluster insignias are pretty straightforward in concept so it wouldn't be too hard to extrapolate what this one should look like.

[Sjhernan3060]

Must be. Thinking Smythe > Smith > Hammer, and of course Jewel > Gem

A bunch of information on Kindraa Smythe-Jewel we've not (I think) been shown before.

Kindraa Colours: Black and emerald green
General Phenotype: Both producing large Warriors, both producing MechWarriors.
Characteristics: Described as "greedy" as a Kindraa. Smythe almost certainly harbours a greedy streak mixed with an unmandrill-like calculation and quiet confidence. Jewel seems more inward looking, more aware of their greed and more troubled by it.

I know that after this kindraa got wrecked some of the blood heritages were picked up but did the smythe and jewel lines die out?

[Shivetya]

I know that after this kindraa got wrecked some of the blood heritages were picked up but did the smythe and jewel lines die out?

Not entirely. Field Manual: Crusader Clans has the Hell's Horses picking up the best (half) of Smyth and Jewel (and Grant) legacies and also notes that Payne, Coyote, and the remainder of the Kindraa claimed genetic material as well. We get some confirmation of those legacies being used by the Horses in their TO&E, where a Star Colonel Garrett (claimed to be from Smythe-Jewel stock) leads a Cluster in the Iota Galaxy. Funny side note, the guy manages to survive in the Iota Galaxy all the way until at least 3067, some 8(!) years later while all the other HH commanders excepting the Galaxy Commander disappear from the lists.   

That aside, we've got more solid proof of the survival of Smythe line in the year 3067 TO&E in FM: Updates, where a Star Colonel Tamarin Smythe leads the 27th Vanguard Assault Cluster in Mick-Kreese-Kline. Not certain about the Jewels. Tomas Jewel survives and both he and his genetic legacy are taken by Payne (as per TRO: Golden Century), but I have not seen any sign of the Jewel Bloodname showing back up in the texts.   

[Kojak]

Star Colonel Tamarin Smythe dates all the way back to Kindraa Kline's debut in Field Manual: Crusader Clans -- it's clear from the fluff in that book that Kindraas Kline and Beyl-Grant scooped up most of the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa's remaining heritages after the Horses and Coyotes had their fill of the carcass.

[Alan Grant]

There is a Star Colonel LaDon Jewel in Kindraa Payne as of FM: CC listed as one of the Kindraa's Cluster Commanders.

On page 43, in the Kindraa Payne section it also says Kindraa Payne controls several strong bloodheritages of other lines, including Jewel and Grant.

[Takiro]

There were a lot of interesting things to glean from the story in Shrapnel. I hesitate to describe them in detail but it's a good read. Bidding practices of the trial were certainly one of these along with the formation used by Smythe-Jewel. If the Kindraa had justified its actions by that new grouping alone I might go for their creative excuse but other deceptive practices in the bid and during combat were beyond the pale for me. Final comment; the result of this story I will annoyingly say again by the letter of Clan law was not technically an annihilation but an absorption with a dash of reaving. Well maybe more than a dash.

[GreekFire]

Final comment; the result of this story I will annoyingly say again by the letter of Clan law was not technically an annihilation but an absorption with a dash of reaving. Well maybe more than a dash.

While it was, the first move the Horses made post-Trial was to push for a Trial of Annihilation against the Mandrills as a whole; it's only after the Grand Council shut this down that they and the Coyotes went for the aggressive absorption instead.

Star Colonel Tamarin Smythe dates all the way back to Kindraa Kline's debut in Field Manual: Crusader Clans -- it's clear from the fluff in that book that Kindraas Kline and Beyl-Grant scooped up most of the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa's remaining heritages after the Horses and Coyotes had their fill of the carcass.

Fascinatingly, the Grants are one of the few examples that can be pointed at for a post-founding, pre-Invasion Kindraa evolution. The very strong implication in FM:CC is that Grant Bloodheritages were originally exclusively held by Kindraa Smythe-Jewel; as such, during the time of the Kindraa's destruction, the Beyls were likely their own independent Kindraa.

The Beyl capture of multiple Grant Bloodheritages seems to have been the move that finally give the Bloodhouse room to gain power and influence. They could not have had much within Kindraa Smythe-Jewel---it was not Kindraa Smythe-Jewel-Grant, after all---but joining a Kindraa with mostly aerospace lineages could have allowed them to carve a strong place for themselves.

[Kojak]

There is a Star Colonel LaDon Jewel in Kindraa Payne as of FM: CC listed as one of the Kindraa's Cluster Commanders.

On page 43, in the Kindraa Payne section it also says Kindraa Payne controls several strong bloodheritages of other lines, including Jewel and Grant.

That's right, there was a third Kindraa that scooped up some remains, thank you for correcting that.

Fascinatingly, the Grants are one of the few examples that can be pointed at for a post-founding, pre-Invasion Kindraa evolution. The very strong implication in FM:CC is that Grant Bloodheritages were originally exclusively held by Kindraa Smythe-Jewel; as such, during the time of the Kindraa's destruction, the Beyls were likely their own independent Kindraa.

The Beyl capture of multiple Grant Bloodheritages seems to have been the move that finally give the Bloodhouse room to gain power and influence. They could not have had much within Kindraa Smythe-Jewel---it was not Kindraa Smythe-Jewel-Grant, after all---but joining a Kindraa with mostly aerospace lineages could have allowed them to carve a strong place for themselves.

Yes, I had similar thoughts as I was reading the Beyl-Grant fluff last night -- internal dynamics like that are exactly what make the Fire Mandrills so fascinating.

[Takiro]

I wonder what the fourteen original Kindraa of the Mandrills was to begin with? We only know of eight... likely the remaining six were some of the remaining exclusive or more famous of the Mandrill Bloodnames. Jannik and Lynn have really not been expounded on too much. Other candidates out there??

[Alan Grant]

I'd say all or nearly all of the Kindraa with hyphenated names were once separate Kindraa. They were less like absorptions and more like marriages and retained the names.

Honestly from there who knows. We know the Clan's original 40 warriors from the Op: Klondike book. Probably a decent cross section of those, including some we haven't seen/heard from since. Not because they are gone but becaues they ended up subordinate to Sainze or something, and so got buried among the rank and file.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Of note here is that the 17th Mechanized Strike---a historical formation---got a bit more fleshing out along with its own thematic nickname, the "Thunderhorse Cluster".

Brutal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuphOxBX8YI

[Shivetya]

There were a lot of interesting things to glean from the story in Shrapnel. I hesitate to describe them in detail but it's a good read. Bidding practices of the trial were certainly one of these along with the formation used by Smythe-Jewel. If the Kindraa had justified its actions by that new grouping alone I might go for their creative excuse but other deceptive practices in the bid and during combat were beyond the pale for me. Final comment; the result of this story I will annoyingly say again by the letter of Clan law was not technically an annihilation but an absorption with a dash of reaving. Well maybe more than a dash.

I also found the Smythe-Jewel deception (I'll have to admit, my previous readings of the Death of the Kindraa suggested to me that their twisting of the formations was more subtle) far beyond what I thought any group of Clanners, especially in those Golden Century years, would stoop to. Sure, the swapping of "bidded" formations with Payne's I can see being tolerated, and the business with the misidentification of solahma I can also see being allowed.

Especially when supported by the juicy exchange between Smythe and Jewel:
TJ: "Star Colonel...the bid. You told the Horse[']s Khan he would face two Trinaries of solahma. We have no such troops. That was a lie."
WS: "Hardly Tomas Jewel. You and your warriors have served the Kindraa for a few years, quiaff?. You yourself are nearly twenty-five. How many warriors have been decanted since you passed your Trial of Position? I believe your Trinaries should be called solahma
....
WS: "Perhaps the status of you and your warriors would rapidly change, were you to find victory here?" 

But the sheer gall of doubling Trinaries feels farfetched. Then when you consider that apparently Smythe-Jewel used the same deceptive bidding practices against the Coyotes, even the in-story rationale - the fact that the horses field two-to-a-point vehicle Stars, and five-per-point Battle Armour - falls apart, as the Coyotes would (presumably) have fielded neither of these formations. Not sure about the vehicles, but certainly not the BA.

Maybe this sets us up for a truly heroic oral defence in the Grand Council by Smythe-Jewel where they managed to mongoose out of their predicament? Looking forward to the see how the author navigates the next steps.

While it was, the first move the Horses made post-Trial was to push for a Trial of Annihilation against the Mandrills as a whole; it's only after the Grand Council shut this down that they and the Coyotes went for the aggressive absorption instead.

Fascinatingly, the Grants are one of the few examples that can be pointed at for a post-founding, pre-Invasion Kindraa evolution. The very strong implication in FM:CC is that Grant Bloodheritages were originally exclusively held by Kindraa Smythe-Jewel; as such, during the time of the Kindraa's destruction, the Beyls were likely their own independent Kindraa.

The Beyl capture of multiple Grant Bloodheritages seems to have been the move that finally give the Bloodhouse room to gain power and influence. They could not have had much within Kindraa Smythe-Jewel---it was not Kindraa Smythe-Jewel-Grant, after all---but joining a Kindraa with mostly aerospace lineages could have allowed them to carve a strong place for themselves.

A little embarrassed to say that I'd never made the connection between the Grant legacies Smythe-Jewel lost and Beyl-Grant.

That's right, there was a third Kindraa that scooped up some remains, thank you for correcting that.

Yes, I had similar thoughts as I was reading the Beyl-Grant fluff last night -- internal dynamics like that are exactly what make the Fire Mandrills so fascinating.

Kindraa politics related to the Bloodhouses seems like it might be fertile ground for more Clan fiction, with the added benefit of getting us a deeper look in to culture of Bloodhouses. The sourcebooks don't seem to delve to deep into them. Are there particular novels/fiction you all are familiar with that get into them?

I wonder what the fourteen original Kindraa of the Mandrills was to begin with? We only know of eight... likely the remaining six were some of the remaining exclusive or more famous of the Mandrill Bloodnames. Jannik and Lynn have really not been expounded on too much. Other candidates out there??

If Jannik's ever been mentioned I've missed it entirely. If you all have found any references, I'd love to know where. Lynn, I think has a little more support. Suu Lynn gifts us with an awesome, very "Mandrill" quote in Historical: Operation KLONDIKE:

"We will fight for honour and for glory, knowing that we may be mere mortal, but our legacy will last forever. We may perish, but our children will not be robbed of their very lives because of it" and I believe shows up in the Beyl-Grant TO&E, and Mattila-Carrol descriptions.

There definitely is an advantage to obscuring the precise composition of the earlier Kindraa and keeping a few lines more mysterious though. Great fodder for fan-created Kindraa!