Author Topic: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk  (Read 110386 times)

truetanker

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #510 on: 01 October 2023, 19:05:24 »
ToP Lacrosse style...


Mandrill colors vs. initiates.

Not necessarily Mandrill Bloodname trials but...

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #511 on: 02 October 2023, 13:57:14 »
Let's hope a return of the Mandrills in the ilclan Era.

As a new champion of these wacky fellows I support this!

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #512 on: 02 October 2023, 14:17:14 »
You might think of some kind of Mexican-style wrestling  :wink:
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #513 on: 31 December 2023, 09:14:07 »
In terms of day to day interactions would mandrills go out of their way to avoid other kindraa vs interacting with a non mandrill. As is my understanding the mandrills scorn pretty much every one and are always looking to start fights so I wonder if the preference is to “ keep it in the family” or bother outsiders

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #514 on: 01 January 2024, 07:30:53 »
The answer, if there were one, would be found in percentage chances. Because the Kindraa did interact with each other, and they did interact with other Clans. They did both. They weren't completely insular like the Blood Spirits. They didn't monitor every single inter-caste and inter-Clan relationship like the Steel Vipers (who practically operated their own Clan like a police surveillance state).

So literally it could be "Monday we had a trade meeting with the Diamond Sharks", "Tuesday members of our Kindraa met the members of an adjacent Clan enclave to discuss a non-military border issue regarding the water of a river that flows through both our enclaves" and "Wednesday, we met with the leader of a Clan Wolf Bloodname House to try to negotiate some genetic pairings between our Bloodname Houses" and "Thursday, depending on who we think is a better target, we are going after either a fellow Kindraa or a Clan in a Trial of Possession, because we want to Trial to acquire another Overlord-C dropship."

It's not 100% one or the other. Both do happen.

Their preferences on the matter take a backseat to whatever they need to do most at any given moment. Such is life.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2024, 08:45:30 by Alan Grant »

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #515 on: 08 January 2024, 16:35:47 »
The answer, if there were one, would be found in percentage chances. Because the Kindraa did interact with each other, and they did interact with other Clans. They did both. They weren't completely insular like the Blood Spirits. They didn't monitor every single inter-caste and inter-Clan relationship like the Steel Vipers (who practically operated their own Clan like a police surveillance state).

So literally it could be "Monday we had a trade meeting with the Diamond Sharks", "Tuesday members of our Kindraa met the members of an adjacent Clan enclave to discuss a non-military border issue regarding the water of a river that flows through both our enclaves" and "Wednesday, we met with the leader of a Clan Wolf Bloodname House to try to negotiate some genetic pairings between our Bloodname Houses" and "Thursday, depending on who we think is a better target, we are going after either a fellow Kindraa or a Clan in a Trial of Possession, because we want to Trial to acquire another Overlord-C dropship."

It's not 100% one or the other. Both do happen.

Their preferences on the matter take a backseat to whatever they need to do most at any given moment. Such is life.

Thank you Alan I think you phrased this so well! And as each kindraa leader is quite independent I must think the chain of command is pretty short…

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #516 on: 08 January 2024, 16:41:39 »
Thank you Alan I think you phrased this so well! And as each kindraa leader is quite independent I must think the chain of command is pretty short…

Yes.  The Kindraa Leaders go with their own gut decisions.  Consulting with the Khans is more likely to end up with an official sanction or denial, since they often are very partial to whatever Kindraa they came from and wouldn't want to see a rival Kindraa gain an advantage.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #517 on: 08 January 2024, 16:43:24 »
Yes.  The Kindraa Leaders go with their own gut decisions.  Consulting with the Khans is more likely to end up with an official sanction or denial, since they often are very partial to whatever Kindraa they came from and wouldn't want to see a rival Kindraa gain an advantage.

I gotta imagine alot of kindraa leader meeting with the khan ended in fist fights…

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #518 on: 08 January 2024, 16:45:53 »
I gotta imagine alot of kindraa leader meeting with the khan ended in fist fights…

Indeed.  And it's not easy for the Khans, either.  Amanda Carroll up and resigned when she knew which way the winds were going to blow in TWoR.  Pretty rare occurrence. 
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #519 on: 05 February 2024, 22:28:13 »
Are the seven Kindraa that survived to the 3050 era, representative of all the original fourteen Kindraa through death and merger? Were there any that went extinct early on or rose up to replace another Bloodhouse? Counting them, including Smythe-Jewel I get thirteen total.

Appreciate any thoughts you guys may have.
« Last Edit: 05 February 2024, 22:38:51 by Terminax »

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #520 on: 06 February 2024, 01:48:10 »
One of my internal assumptions was that Jannik was either part of a kindraa or even a kindrasc that was absorbed by someone like the Sainze sometime during the Golden Century. Given that the Sainze don't allow any non-Sainze bloodnamed warrior to rise above the rank of Star Captain, it's not too far off of a guess.

Also worth considering is how many of the minor bloodnames might have had a kindraa or kindrasc at some point, but lost out while tangoing with an outside Clan, hence the spread of those bloodnames outside of the Clan. Again, just speculation.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #521 on: 06 February 2024, 07:41:36 »
Are the seven Kindraa that survived to the 3050 era, representative of all the original fourteen Kindraa through death and merger? Were there any that went extinct early on or rose up to replace another Bloodhouse? Counting them, including Smythe-Jewel I get thirteen total.

Appreciate any thoughts you guys may have.

Smythe-Jewel gets called out for being the weird exception. Where another Clan stepped in and took out a Kindraa and made off with a lot of the survivors, leftover equipment and genetic legacies. It was quite shocking to the Mandrills as a whole.

From what we know, all the other Kindraa just combined through death and mergers over the years. Even death meaning the genetic legacies were taken and then added to the gene pool of one or more of the remaining Kindraa.

We don't know of any that went TRULY extinct, no genetic legacies left behind and put on the shelf, or anything like that. Even those that fall in battle completely still have leftover equipment, enclaves, lower castes, genetic legacies, that can be picked up and absorbed by the other Kindraa. Sounds like that's exactly what happened all the other times except Smythe-Jewel, where that happened, but mostly to the Horses and Coyotes.

That being said, the early days of the Clan are such a vague void, I could easily imagine that more happened in there than we know. I can easily imagine writers today writing stories about the Mandrill early days and some of those early Kindraa and their fates. Some of those could certainly be surprising, unusual and interesting.
« Last Edit: 06 February 2024, 07:46:15 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #522 on: 06 February 2024, 08:39:28 »
Good speculation on Jannik. I'm mostly dotting Is and crossing Ts making sure there aren't any references I've missed. I've made note of the Bloodnames that aren't exclusive and the legacies we don't know any details save they existed. Beyond that gets into the weeds of actual legacies within any Bloodhouse and that's never been particularly detailed save in early days or rare mentioned  extinction.

As to Smythe-Jewel, they I counted as two Kindraa that merged so they're part of the thirteen original Kindraa I've counted but the 14th is unnamed in any published material so far as I can tell. There isn't any contradictory evidence otherwise.

For my purposes, it doesn't really matter - making up a Kindraa to fit the 14th slot or just making up an extra kindraa or even two isn't a big deal but it's nice to match up as close as I can.

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #523 on: 06 February 2024, 19:32:49 »
Couple obscure Mandrill references...

In the novel Land of Dreams we have a couple Mandrill scenes. Mostly focused on Sainze and Payne (the originals) that shed a little light on their rivalry.

But in one scene we also get some dialogue from Mia Nethercott, another Mandrill founding bloodname that we've never seen referenced anywhere else. Mia recommends to Laura Payne that they retreat in one scene after a lot of fighting with their forces in need of repair and resupply. I've always suspected since then that Nethercott might be another of those minor bloodnames shared by the various Kindraa, but I could also see it always being concentrated in Kindraa Payne, if Mia and Laura Payne had a good relationship (which was the vibe I got from that scene).

Schroeder is another obscure name that gets Star Colonel Hampton Schroeder of Kindraa Sainze as a more famous member during the Wars of Reaving. I could see that being a minor Kindraa from the early days that Sainze absorbs.


EDIT: He's particularly intriguing because FM: CC tells us that only Sainze-named warriors get to be Star Colonels in that Kindraa. So he bucks that trend for some unknown reason. Dating all the way back to FM: Updates, so it isn't a quirk of the WoR era.
« Last Edit: 06 February 2024, 19:46:51 by Alan Grant »

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #524 on: 06 February 2024, 19:45:25 »
Couple obscure Mandrill references...

In the novel Land of Dreams we have a couple Mandrill scenes. Mostly focused on Sainze and Payne (the originals) that shed a little light on their rivalry.

But in one scene we also get some dialogue from Mia Nethercott, another Mandrill founding bloodname that we've never seen referenced anywhere else. Mia recommends to Laura Payne that they retreat in one scene after a lot of fighting with their forces in need of repair and resupply. I've always suspected since then that Nethercott might be another of those minor bloodnames shared by the various Kindraa, but I could also see it always being concentrated in Kindraa Payne, if Mia and Laura Payne had a good relationship (which was the vibe I got from that scene).

Schroeder is another obscure name that gets Star Colonel Hampton Schroeder of Kindraa Sainze as a more famous member during the Wars of Reaving. I could see that being a minor Kindraa from the early days that Sainze absorbs.

Great research! I really liked that the mandrills got so much ink in those novels but also frustrating to see how their flaws got baked in from day one!

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #525 on: 06 February 2024, 19:52:09 »
EDIT: He's particularly intriguing because FM: CC tells us that only Sainze-named warriors get to be Star Colonels in that Kindraa. So he bucks that trend for some unknown reason. Dating all the way back to FM: Updates, so it isn't a quirk of the WoR era.

He isn’t even the most interesting one, either. Another Cluster is commanded by an individual that isn’t even Bloodnamed at all.
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #526 on: 06 February 2024, 19:58:25 »
He isn’t even the most interesting one, either. Another Cluster is commanded by an individual that isn’t even Bloodnamed at all.

True, would be interesting if Star Colonel Collin was freeborn. The Sainze attitude toward freeborns is complex and interesting.

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #527 on: 06 February 2024, 20:01:55 »
True, would be interesting if Star Colonel Collin was freeborn. The Sainze attitude toward freeborns is complex and interesting.

If I had to guess, the reason we see these individuals in charge is likely because after Sainze’s weakening after all of their actions against other Kindraa, they likely didn’t have the qualified Bloodnamed Sainzes to fill in the gaps in their command structure. It seems the most logical explanation. Especially Collin’s Cluster, which swelled with a large intake of bondsmen. He could even be from another Kindraa entirely. Now that would be wild.
« Last Edit: 06 February 2024, 20:04:51 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #528 on: 07 February 2024, 07:50:08 »
It would be, it's certainly a possibility. Either due to casualties the Sainze bloodnamed didn't have enough qualified Star Colonels laying around. Or in the intervening years they relaxed the "Sainze Star Colonels only" policy for one or more reasons. Possibly due to that first issue of available Sainze warriors. But also possibly due to internal pressures within the Kindraa to allow some others to rise up within the Kindraa. I feel like there's an interesting untold story there either way.

Pivoting..

Faraday-Tanaga's write up in FM: CC page 43 says that Kindraa used to contain 5 exclusive Bloodnames. It says they now share two minor names with other Kindraa and other Clans, and that a third name is shared with the Smoke Jaguars but might be considered exclusive "in light of recent events."

I think one of those once-exclusive names they now share is Angharobis (pronounced Angharobi ? silent "s"?). Because we get a Star Colonel in the Faraday-Tanaga Kindraa, and another in in Beyl-Grant.

I think Kolomosi may be the other name referenced. We've got 2 canon Star Captain Komolosi's within the Smoke Jaguars.

Within Faraday-Tanaga we also get a Star Colonel Bush referenced in FM: CC.

So it sounds like Faraday-Tanaga, said to have originally consisted of 5 exclusive bloodnames per FM: CC. I believe they were Faraday, Tanaga, Angharobis, Kolomosi and Bush.

If accurate, that does a lot to clarify the history of those 5 bloodnames, as originating within a single Kindraa. The same writeup tells us Faraday ruled it, so it was originally Kindraa Faraday, with the Tanaga's eventually elevating themselves up to hyphenated name prominence.

I'd kind of love it if those 5 Bloodname Founders served together in the same Star or Binary during Operation Klondike.
« Last Edit: 07 February 2024, 07:55:40 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #529 on: 07 February 2024, 08:40:45 »
Excellent detective work but that'd also imply Tanaga was not one of the 14 original Kindraa by coming up later, which would lower the count back to 12. But that leads to ponder other details as well.

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #530 on: 07 February 2024, 09:28:46 »
Definitely look to the original list of 40. You can find it on Sarna (search "list of bloodnames" on that site) and in the Operation Klondike book.

There are quite a few that have no other named members because the Bloodname Founder. Any of those could have been a Kindraa that was crushed and subordinated to the winner.

I think Kindraa Xing has a nice ring to it, and we do have a Star Colonel Xing within Mick-Kreese.

Misjak has several Clan Wolf (or WIE) members. That could have been a Kindraa at one point. Good enough to catch Clan Wolf's eye but didn't survive as a Kindraa.

And within that list of the original 40, some of those names are prominent in other Clans. Which makes me wonder if they might have been prominent in Mandrill Kindraa at some point. Newclay appears prominently in the Jade Falcons with a couple Galaxy Commanders. Grimaldi has a Steel Viper Galaxy Commander.

These could have been Kindraa that did well for a time. Reaching the rank of Star Colonel or Galaxy Commander usually requires more than just skills. Usually that requires the right connections, political clout, on top of warrior ability.

Even as their powerbase was wrecked in the Mandrills, reducing them to mostly the rank-and-file of another Kindraa, that Bloodname House might have then shifted their political focuses and ambitions to a different Clan where they had more room to grow and prosper.

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #531 on: 07 February 2024, 14:22:46 »
Maybe, eventually I'll spreadsheet Blood house links we know about but that's at least a step or more than I need to go atm. The Fire Mandrills aren't exactly the focus of my project but a part of a greater whole. For being the disorganized, chaotic mess of a Clan they're much clearer than most of the similar Clans.

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #532 on: 07 February 2024, 20:16:39 »
Excellent detective work but that'd also imply Tanaga was not one of the 14 original Kindraa by coming up later, which would lower the count back to 12. But that leads to ponder other details as well.

Both things could be true, given that within a year of those 14 original Kindraa being identified by the other Clans, there were only 12, as two of them had been Absorbed by that time. One of those two could’ve been the Tanagas.

Then again, the phrasing of how the Faradays developed the Tanaga Bloodname into a strong line, with no mention of them being Absorbed, leads me to believe that they were never a separate Kindraa. There’s also the fact that the Faradays distinctly did not engage in feuds with other Kindraa during this time. I think Alan might be right here and the Faradays started off with the Tanagas as part of their Kindraa.
« Last Edit: 07 February 2024, 20:18:36 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #533 on: 07 February 2024, 21:30:06 »
Given that Smythe-Jewel is definitely a merger of two Kindraa, I'm happy to count them as two of the OG fourteen. You're right that we don't know for sure if Tanaga is counted that way. Still that's either twelve or thirteen which means there's definitely at least one missing. Which may have been purposeful to leave room for us to play with too.

I have plans for some alterations for AU purposes (see Blood Spirits thread). As part of that, the intention is for at least one additional Kindraa. Maybe two but I'm still mulling over that. The principal change is a slightly altered distribution of Warships at the SLDF/Clans-as-a-whole level, opening a slot for a logistics/support warship. That warship will be stewarded by my extra first Kindraa, with a front line and second line cluster for martial forces. Notably they'd be non-viable and merger fodder save they're good (unusually so) at playing the three top Kindraa against each other thus retaining their freedom. The other major change is the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa survive the outcome of the Hell Horse's and Coyote attack on Foster leading to a feud/enmity with both and the Paynes resulting a different dynamic in the Fire Mandrills forward. That potential second made up Kindraa feels a little overkill like dessert on top of a dessert so It hasn't been sketched out yet. I may leave that detail until I've fluttered butterfly wings through other Clans first.
« Last Edit: 07 February 2024, 21:40:24 by Terminax »

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #534 on: 08 February 2024, 00:37:32 »
Given that Smythe-Jewel is definitely a merger of two Kindraa

Do we know that for sure?
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #535 on: 08 February 2024, 01:23:43 »
Timing wise they'd almost have to be wouldn't they?  Though I guess it's possible they started out unified but if so that'd be yet another mystery slot opened up. I can believe they overlooked one Kindraas name, maybe two but now we risk getting into three or more.

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #536 on: 08 February 2024, 02:08:10 »
It's certainly possible, but I'm more inclined to think they were originally just one of the multi-Bloodname kindrascs, given how their rise to power is treated as something of a surprise compared to the other big names. We know that two minor Kindraa were absorbed quickly, and given that the time frame of the Clan's fracturing was so very early, it also stands to reason that most Bloodnames were still exclusively controlled and of "equal status" to each other, politically speaking. I dunno, it's all so much speculation, but there's something appealing about the thought of different unknown Kindraas having their brief moments in the sun before being consumed by those that now exist, and it fits with the ultimate lesson taught by the Smythe-Jewel downfall. It also matches the... sad romantic tragedy of the whole Clan's history.
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #537 on: 08 February 2024, 06:12:59 »
I have a Kindraa creation year for you and I think it provides the probable answer you seek to the Smythe-Jewel origin question.

TLDR: It looks like Smythe-Jewel and also Matilla-Carrol were always 1 Kindraa (each) with a hyphenated name. But with the caveat that while Matilla-Carrol were definitely there, FM: CC does note that two of the smaller and less viable Kindraa had been swallowed up in internal Trials in the first year, and we don't know which ones those two were. However the odds that Smythe-Jewel were that seem remote to me.

Turning Points: Foster page 10. Under the Second Jewel Cluster. It says: The Second is Kindraa Smythe-Jewel’s oldest Cluster. The Second Strike was created alongside the Kindraa itself in 2835.....

For context Nicholas Kerensky was killed and the Widowmakers absorbed in 2834.

We know in the earliest days of the Clan it was more like different individual warriors/trinaries/clusters fighting amongst themselves. What started as Kindred Associations a "term that evolved over a few years" (FM: CC page 38) to Kindrasc then Kindraa.

FM: CC's Mandrill history section also says in the earliest incarnation of this, a Kindrasc was basically just another name for a Bloodname House, or a collection of minor Bloodname Houses that had pooled their resources together. Because Kindrasc could span members across multiple units or even multiple Clans it was a helpful way for a warrior to identify their allegiances. But in those days the Clusters, the enclaves, all of it were still just Clan Fire Mandrill. So it was just a non-standard variation on the concept of Bloodname House politics back then, like those found in other Clans.

It then specifically says the next step in that evolution happened after Kerensky's death and the Widowmaker absorption. It says those events had a profound effect on the Mandrills. With Kindrasc Sainze bringing together two clusters it controlled and challenging the Wolves for a Dagda enclave. They won, but rather than turn the enclave over to the entire Clan, they declared it belonged to Kindraa Sainze. They then expelled non-Kindrasc/Kindraa Sainze members and something resembling the Kindraa we know was born. Not too long after that, the Paynes worked to match that move by forming Kindraa Payne. Then Faraday did the same.

FM: CC says in the weeks after that, "countless alliances were made, and fought over, and broken and reforged." By the time that cycle was complete, the Clan separated into Kindraa had appeared. A few paragraphs later it says the Clan had reformed itself into 14 Kindraa.

(side note: Kindraa Matilla-Carrol gets mentioned specifically here, assisting Kindraa Faraday in repulsing the Burrocks, who were first to notice the new factional realignment of the Mandrills and thought that would make then an easy target, so it was another hyphenated Kindraa in the early days as well)

So in terms of timing, Kindraa Smythe-Jewel's stated founding year nicely aligns with the period of time where the actual Kindraa were being formed as distinct entities, rather than just a version of Bloodname House politics and Bloodname House alliances by another name.

Therefore it seems likely to me that Smythe-Jewel was always 1 Kindraa. if Smythe and Jewel stood as separate Kindraa, they only did so for a matter of months to maybe 1 year.

HOWEVER.. big disclaimer. It says that the Clan had reformed into 14 Kindraa, but it took the rest of the Clans about a year to confirm the exact number of Kindraa. By that time, "two of the smaller and less-viable Kindraa had already been swallowed up in internal Trials of Absorption."

So there is a chance they were separate, at least two Kindraa were gone. So in the first 12 months of this Kindraa reshuffle, AFTER 14 Kindraa were established, 2 were absorbed almost immediately. It sounds like they were small and weak and didn't possess the assets needed to stand independently and remain viable by themselves for long.

By probability of odds, I doubt it was Smythe-Jewel. I'd give that certainly less than a 50 percent possibility. It seems much more likely that happened to a couple small more obscure Kindraa that we've never heard of.

If I was a gambling man, I'd bet that Smythe-Jewel was one of the original 14.
« Last Edit: 08 February 2024, 06:55:25 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #538 on: 08 February 2024, 06:34:28 »
It’s also kind of telling as well that we don’t see a single confirmed example of a hyphenated Kindraa being the result of one Kindraa merging with or Absorbing another Kindraa until FM:U, well after the existing Kindraa had been firmly established in writing.
« Last Edit: 08 February 2024, 06:54:56 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk
« Reply #539 on: 08 February 2024, 06:40:50 »
Yeah and Mattila-Carrol definitely started out as a one from the earliest days. I'm surprised I never caught that before. (or maybe I just forgot)

I can recall a few times over the years, having or reading conversations about the Mandrills, in which many people presumed that the hyphenated names were a clear indicator that they merged/absorbed later. They assumed that no Kindraa started out that way.

Mattila-Carrol being there from the start, in the first real test of the Kindraa system at holding off the Burrocks as the first attempt to exploit the Kindraa system as a weakness, is telling. It renders that assumption incorrect in a pretty reliable fashion IMO.
« Last Edit: 08 February 2024, 06:43:02 by Alan Grant »

 

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