Great Refusal and clan law

[Akalabeth]

It's been a while since I've read the task force serpent books and I no longer have them in my possession so I may be a bit vague on the subject, but having read Warriors of Kerensky the last two days I'm kinda wondering something.

How exactly does the Great Refusal fit into clan law? Like what sort of binding agreement can Victor introduce which would forbid any further invasion?

Because the original Operation Revival already had a refusal, it was fought by Wolf at 4 to 1 odds and they lost.
So what now was the pseudo-SLDF fighting for no less at 1 to 1 odds??

And if it was something that Victor himself introduced, a new motion, then could not a refusal be fought against that decision? I don't get it. Would probably help if I had the books on hand but sounds pretty bogus.

[Fallen_Raven]

Well I don't have the books on me either, but if the SLDF had a Trial of Possesion for the right to conquer the Inner Sphere then it would have neutered the Clans. But really Clan law is vague enough (i.e. we don't have all the legal codes as source books) that we can't know for sure what is the appropriate IC arangement, and any Clan that fought in the Refusal is permenantly bound by the outcome. Part of the difficulty in judging a fictional case is that it is fictional.

[Akalabeth]

Well I don't have the books on me either, but if the SLDF had a Trial of Possesion for the right to conquer the Inner Sphere then it would have neutered the Clans.

Yeah but how can you have a trial of possession over invasion rights? I mean I understand that it was the only way to get the clans to stop invading, so one way or the other they were going to railroad the idea into fiction (Along with usual factional biases to boot) but I'm curious how they actually did it and whether the way they did it actually makes sense.

[Wotan]

As far as i remember the Grand Council forced all the clans to accept the outcome. But the Falcons directly agrumented that the were not defeted and therefore are not affected. Vlad jumped to that point and said the same for his Wolves.
All others - including the Star Adders - feels bounded by the Great Refusal.

[Fallen_Raven]

I don't know of anything the Clans can't fight a trial over, though the invasion rights do seem silly. But that's the only thing I can think of that would actually bind the Clans. On the other hand, they did just see the Smoke Jaguars get stomped on their own homeworld, which was bound to set a few people to posturing. And some of them had to be wondering what other planets the SLDf could get to. So maybe a few Khans decided to show the shpereiods that they could beat them anyway, but the Wardens said "put up or shut up," and when things went horribly wrong they had no graceful way to back out.

[Akalabeth]

Yeah but what exactly was the Great Refusal in terms of clan law? A Trial of Possession? A trial of Refusal (as the name suggests)? If so what decision was it refusing.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

It was actually a Trial of Refusal over the Invasion itself. They refuted the Go vote as cast by the Grand Council in 3049. So the official organized invasion of the Inner Sphere by a United Clan force has been ended. However, the Falcons led the way in declaring that while the official Grand Council Invasion had been ended, individual Clans could still trial for Inner Sphere worlds and gain more territory in classic Clan style. Thus if a clan wants to begin taking worlds with the final goal of reaching Terra, that Clan is free to do so. It just has to do it on its own with no help from the rest of the Clans.

[Akalabeth]

It was actually a Trial of Refusal over the Invasion itself. They refuted the Go vote as cast by the Grand Council in 3049. So the official organized invasion of the Inner Sphere by a United Clan force has been ended. However, the Falcons led the way in declaring that while the official Grand Council Invasion had been ended, individual Clans could still trial for Inner Sphere worlds and gain more territory in classic Clan style. Thus if a clan wants to begin taking worlds with the final goal of reaching Terra, that Clan is free to do so. It just has to do it on its own with no help from the rest of the Clans.

So how can you have a Trial of Refusal over a vote when a Trial of Refusal has already taken place? Isn't one of the main ideas of clan law is that you cannot have two trials of refusal?

Also the original invasion vote was a vote of 16 to 1. So why then is the Trial of Refusal against the SLDF fought at 1 to 1 odds?


The thing does't follow clan law yet it's followed by the clans as law for what reason exactly??

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

The first trial was issued by a dissenting Clan force (the Wolves) while the second was issued by the offended party (the Inner Sphere) I think that is why it is acceptable. But, more important, the Inner Sphere just wiped out a whole Clan, one of the strongest in fact. In a Might Makes Right society such as the Clans, that gives you some leeway to bargain, and in this case the IS used to to issue the Trial of Refusal.

[Akalabeth]

The first trial was issued by a dissenting Clan force (the Wolves) while the second was issued by the offended party (the Inner Sphere) I think that is why it is acceptable. But, more important, the Inner Sphere just wiped out a whole Clan, one of the strongest in fact. In a Might Makes Right society such as the Clans, that gives you some leeway to bargain, and in this case the IS used to to issue the Trial of Refusal.

Even assuming legal grounds to bend the law as they did. Why the 1 to 1 odds? (despite the obvious answer that the inner sphere needed to win). The original vote was 16 to 1. Even with bidding down by the clans, Clan Wolf still fought at 4 to 1 odds. Yet the SLDF for no reason fights at 1 to 1 odds? Well technically they even have a numerical advantage.

And yes one could say that the clans under-estimated the SLDF. But at the same time they just destroyed Smoke Jaguar. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[Fallen_Raven]

I don't think many of the Crusaders felt like adding in their allowed number of units. If they bid nothing in their rightful forces, then no other Clan should have been able to up the bid to make up the difference. This was the first (and only) case I've heard of in which a Clan on the winning side didn't participate in the Trial to defend the cause.

[Nibs]

It doesn't matter how large a touman one has in representing oneself at a Trial of Refusal. The initial one fought by Clan Wolf at 16 to 1 odds was due to that they were a single party objecting to the vote where sixteen parties approved. To fight one on one would give great advantage to the Wolves, as they were a tiny minority of dissent. Appropriately, odds were given to reflect that fact.

With the Inner Sphere forces, it was not a Trial of Refusal where a voting member or members chose to effect a Trial of Refusal over a decision made by the voting body. It was a different organization entirely, so it was the Clans vs. the Inner Sphere, one on one.

[roosterboy]

So how can you have a Trial of Refusal over a vote when a Trial of Refusal has already taken place? Isn't one of the main ideas of clan law is that you cannot have two trials of refusal?

Not quite. The same party cannot bring additional Trials of Refusal after the first one is lost. But other affected parties can. So the Wolves fought and lost a Trial initially, but the Inner Sphere nations, as an additional affected party, can bring another Trial.

The Trial of Refusal has its limits, however. First, the challenge must come from someone cited in the decision or within the appropriate body. Furthermore, Clan law forbids challenging the outcome of a Trial of Refusal with another Trial of Refusal but members of the council in question and those cited in the matter may stage additional Refusals. These usually occur simultaneously but may, if circumstances demand, be carried out separately if those cited in the matter were not given the opportunity to challenge the original decision. This helps protect the interests of those cited in the matter and only one such Refusal  need be successful for the motion to be struck down. However, though the first Refusal must be accepted, a majority vote of the council may deny the petition for a second challenge.

[Akalabeth]

It doesn't matter how large a touman one has in representing oneself at a Trial of Refusal. The initial one fought by Clan Wolf at 16 to 1 odds was due to that they were a single party objecting to the vote where sixteen parties approved. To fight one on one would give great advantage to the Wolves, as they were a tiny minority of dissent. Appropriately, odds were given to reflect that fact.

With the Inner Sphere forces, it was not a Trial of Refusal where a voting member or members chose to effect a Trial of Refusal over a decision made by the voting body. It was a different organization entirely, so it was the Clans vs. the Inner Sphere, one on one.

Eh, it still sounds like they're making it up as they go along which is why I find the whole legally binding thing a bit odd.
Also it's kind of interesting that the Warden clans were all non-participants considering that the fears upon which they voted to go to war in the first place were now the exact fears which had been realized with the destruction of Smoke Jaguar.

[Callista]

Even if you were allowed the full odds in the refusual, how much honor is there in engaging a 'barbaric inner sphere' force with 16 times the forces?

[Jaim Magnus]

Indeed.  To gain any honour at all, you would have to take less forces against them.
This is why the Great Refusal was fought binary vs. company.  That, and the binary force size was determined by the fact that Osis and the Jags only had a binary available to fight with. 

[Akalabeth]

Since when have Trials of Refusal been a matter of honour?
Every example I've ever seen has always been fought with the protesting side at a significant disadvantage. Not 16 to 1. But certainly 3 or 4 to 1.

[Jaim Magnus]

The whole trial system is about honour... and preserving resources.

[Akalabeth]

Trials of Refusal are about maintaining the vote cast by the grand council or alternatively the clan council. The only one with honour to gain is the one who was wrong in my opinion. Aidan fought at 3 to 1 odds. Clan Wolf fought at 4 to 1 odds for Op Revival.

It's not about honour it's about who's right. And if someone is very wrong, they have to fight at very difficult odds to prove that they're right.


This isn't a Trial of Possession.

[Jaim Magnus]

You do realize that right = honour amongst the Clans, right?

[Akalabeth]

You do realize that right = honour amongst the Clans, right?

This isn't about your or my interpretation of clan honour, this is about precedent. Previous Trials of Refusal have not been fought at one to one odds. They've been fought at the odds of the initial vote or something a less drastic but always to my knowledge in favour of the voting side. So then suddenly, a trial of refusal over a vote that was 16 to 1 is now at 1 to 1 odds? It makes no sense.

It's like "This is the way the clan system works, this is how examples are played out" and then some other party, who isn't even part of the clan system comes along and tries to use the rules, and then not only are they accomodated but they get special preference without precedent in written clan history all so they can win because in the grand fiction of things they're the "good guys" or maybe more accurately because they need to win.

The fact that Smoke Jaguar has only a binary left is irrelevant also by the way. The battles could've been binary vs a lance. Roughly 3 to 1 odds which is better than Clan Wolf, the foremost clan among the clans got back in 3048. Also remember that the inner sphere has just routed the foremost Crusader Clan. I don't think anyone views them as weak anymore.

[Jaim Magnus]

The Great Refusal was fought at that strength because that's what the parties involved agreed to.
It was binding because the bidding declared that it would be so.  If the Clans one, the invasion would have continued.  They thought it unlikely they would lose, so agreed to Victor's terms.

The fact that the Jaguars only had a binary actually was a deciding factor.  The initial thoughts were that the fights would be larger, but Osis was forced to admit he only had that binary.  That was used as a baseline and the fights were designed to be fairly even.

[Nibs]

This isn't about your or my interpretation of clan honour, this is about precedent. Previous Trials of Refusal have not been fought at one to one odds. They've been fought at the odds of the initial vote or something a less drastic but always to my knowledge in favour of the voting side. So then suddenly, a trial of refusal over a vote that was 16 to 1 is now at 1 to 1 odds? It makes no sense.

The Trial of Refusal over Operation Revival's beginning and the Great Refusal were two separate Trials, so yes, different odds apply. The first one was a single Clan attempting to overturn a decision where they were outnumbered sixteen to one. The second was the Grand Council of the Clans defending their decision against the Inner Sphere. It was not over a vote, so odds need not apply.

Additionally, the method of trial changes depending on bidding. The sixteen to one odds had little honour, so it was reduced to four to one odds by bidding. The combatants agreed to force compositions as such to be a fair representation of the Trial. However, with the Great Refusal, both sides chose eight battles of even forces to represent the Trial. As said, there was no odds as it wasn't a Trial over the internal voting results of the Grand Council, so the force composition could have been anything. That the Jaguars had but a Binary left shaped the size of forces, and the Inner Sphere chose to respond with a company each. Both sides agreed to the Trial being as such.

It's like "This is the way the clan system works, this is how examples are played out" and then some other party, who isn't even part of the clan system comes along and tries to use the rules, and then not only are they accomodated but they get special preference without precedent in written clan history all so they can win because in the grand fiction of things they're the "good guys" or maybe more accurately because they need to win.

What do you mean, without precedent?  ???

The fact that Smoke Jaguar has only a binary left is irrelevant also by the way. The battles could've been binary vs a lance. Roughly 3 to 1 odds which is better than Clan Wolf, the foremost clan among the clans got back in 3048. Also remember that the inner sphere has just routed the foremost Crusader Clan. I don't think anyone views them as weak anymore.

After Lincoln Osis declared that he had only a binary left, the other Clans decided that it was the size of force that they were going to use. And the Inner Sphere bid companies to combat the binaries.

[Akalabeth]

What do you mean, without precedent?  ???

I mean if every other Trial of Refusal that we've heard about (or at least I've heard about) has been at the odds of the vote, ie, more than 1 to 1 then that's the precedent. The defending side has always been out numbered to some degree because they've always been on the losing side of the vote. Now suddenly it's 1 to 1 when previous to this, it's not happened. Maybe it has happened but I'm not aware of any such occasion.

After Lincoln Osis declared that he had only a binary left, the other Clans decided that it was the size of force that they were going to use. And the Inner Sphere bid companies to combat the binaries.

Wait, so the inner sphere BID to combat the clan forces? Shouldn't it have been the other way around? One more thing that doesn't make sense. If it's a grand council decision, and the inner sphere is the aggrieved party, the grand council should be picking forces to combat whatever the Inner Sphere is presenting. Even the fact that it's 8 battles or whatever instead of just 1 is another new thing that to my knowledge hasn't happened.

[Shockwave]

Eh, it still sounds like they're making it up as they go along which is why I find the whole legally binding thing a bit odd.

Actually, no.

They did it before in the Legend of the Jade Phoenix. Joanna, Adian and Tel all separately demanded their Trial of Refusal, granted they fought it together, even Joanna who's own guilty verdict was at a reduced odds to the ratio Adian and Tel were guilty of, but she choose to fight with Adian.

This trilogy was written and set significantly before the Great refusal.   

So no, they were not making it up as they went along in this case.

[Akalabeth]

Actually, no.

They did it before in the Legend of the Jade Phoenix. Joanna, Adian and Tel all separately demanded their Trial of Refusal, granted they fought it together, even Joanna who's own guilty verdict was at a reduced odds to the ratio Adian and Tel were guilty of, but she choose to fight with Adian.

This trilogy was written and set significantly before the Great refusal.   

So no, they were not making it up as they went along in this case.

I'm sorry but how does that example support your point? If you're arguing that multiple trials of refusal can be fought over one verdict, well the fact that Joanna had separate odds suggests that each person had separate votes and that there was effectively three trials which were instead just lumped into one at the worst odds.

Which is a little different than one trial split into 8 different battles.

Plus we've already established that the IS as the aggrieved party can call for a separate trial of refusal. (Though why that separate trial wasn't at the odds of the original vote, or furthermore why it was the IS that determined the balance of forces is beyond me).


What exactly is the typical order for a Trial of Refusal?
The council makes a vote
dissenting voters can fight against the vote
aggrieved parties can fight against the vote
in both cases, the council determines the odds which are up to the ratio of the fight but are typically bidded down in favour of the defenders but still at substantially difficult odds (ie 16:1 becoming 4:1). The trial takes place in one fight.

Now with the Great Refusal what happens?
The council made a vote
the Aggrieved party disputes the vote
So instead of typical policy, the it instead becomes some sort of batchall thing. The council says what they're defending with. The IS then determines what they're attacking with. Then the battle is not one battle but 8 battles with the winner being that which won the most (and then of course contrary to various fluff, the fan-favourites predictably win their battles).

Is this a Trial of Refusal or a Trial of Possession? Why is the IS bidding? Why are there multiple battles? Why is the ratio of the original vote not at all factored into the equation? Aidan, Joanna and Tel didn't vote. But they still fought at 3 to 1 odds. They were the aggrieved party. Why would the IS be ANY different?

[Nibs]

I mean if every other Trial of Refusal that we've heard about (or at least I've heard about) has been at the odds of the vote, ie, more than 1 to 1 then that's the precedent. The defending side has always been out numbered to some degree because they've always been on the losing side of the vote. Now suddenly it's 1 to 1 when previous to this, it's not happened. Maybe it has happened but I'm not aware of any such occasion.

Because there was no vote contested (the Inner Sphere was not a voting party, and therefore was not contesting a vote), no odds were given.

There are examples of where the system of odds is not always used. The Refusal War is considered one Trial of Refusal where battling was done one Clan versus one Clan, even odds, and that occurred before the Great Refusal. In addition, Shockwave gave another example. Other than the Operation Revival vote and Trial of Refusal performed by Clan Wolf, what are other examples of odds specifically given for the Trial?

Wait, so the inner sphere BID to combat the clan forces? Shouldn't it have been the other way around? One more thing that doesn't make sense. If it's a grand council decision, and the inner sphere is the aggrieved party, the grand council should be picking forces to combat whatever the Inner Sphere is presenting. Even the fact that it's 8 battles or whatever instead of just 1 is another new thing that to my knowledge hasn't happened.

It's simply the way they chose to fight the Refusal. They could have said one massive battle, or a proxy battle between two champions, or whatever style they preferred. The system is very open as to how to hold a Trial of Refusal. However, in this case, they decided that eight battles would be the case. In this situation, the Clans bid a binary each. In response, the Inner Sphere chose a company to combat the binaries.

Bottom line is that the Clan Trial system, though regimented, is not too restricted in how it can be performed. Situations vary, as long as combat decides who is right.

[Jaim Magnus]

If you're having a particularly difficult time with this, I'd suggest posting in the 'Ask the Writers' thread.

[Akalabeth]

Because there was no vote contested (the Inner Sphere was not a voting party, and therefore was not contesting a vote), no odds were given.

There are examples of where the system of odds is not always used. The Refusal War is considered one Trial of Refusal where battling was done one Clan versus one Clan, even odds, and that occurred before the Great Refusal. In addition, Shockwave gave another example. Other than the Operation Revival vote and Trial of Refusal performed by Clan Wolf, what are other examples of odds specifically given for the Trial?

Aidan, Joanna and Tel were not members of the Clan Council. They didn't vote. But they still fought at 3 to 1 odds. So I don't know where this idea is coming from where if you don't vote you get 1 to 1 odds. You fight at the odds of the vote regardless of whether you're a member of the council or not. WoK suggests this quite clearly.

In a Trial of Refusal, the refusing party declares what forces he or she will use to challenge the decision. The opposing side then declares what forces will uphold the verdict, up to the ratio of the decision.

Furthermore, it also says

However, though the first Refusal must be accepted, a majority vote of the council may deny the petition for a second challenge

Did this vote even take place in the TotC books??


And then EVEN after the trial takes place. You've got people like Vlad and Joanna saying they're not affected by the vote because they either won their individual battles or because they abstained.


Honestly the whole thing is, the Great Refusal is pretty much the most important political trial in the history of the clans. But the nature in which it is carried out is seemingly so adhoc and irregular that it's just bizarre. The order of bidding is wrong. The ratio of the vote is not observed. The battle is not one battle but several. Participants openly deny the outcome of the battle due to special circumstances. Factions which voted in favour of the original vote aren't even involved in the trial despite the reason for their voting in favour having taken place (That being the inner sphere has threatened the clan way of life, etcetera).

[Akalabeth]

If you're having a particularly difficult time with this, I'd suggest posting in the 'Ask the Writers' thread.

It's not about understanding. I understand it quite well, that's the problem. The more I learn about it the less it makes sense in the context of clan society. As for the writers, I imagine they'll give me the answer I already know "the inner sphere needed to win to end the threat of the clans so that's the way it went".