Author Topic: “Save” the Jags  (Read 143240 times)

Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #870 on: 10 April 2024, 11:13:06 »
A Clan that wins the Absorption bid would be attacking the Jaguars' existing assets, not assets they used to have. There might be an argument that they'd also win the Jaguars' rights to have an invasion corridor, but it's a flimsy one IMO.

It gets the assests and legal rights and duties.
All this can be opposed in more Trials of Grievance or Trials of Possession.

IMHO the Wars of Grievance which happend after the Great Refusal and the Abjuration of the Nova Cats should have happened before.

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Which has nothing to do with their chances of winning the right to Absorb another Clan. Absorptions are bid upon, per ER: Golden Century, with the right going to the Clan that bids the lowest. And at the point where Huntress is taken by the SLDF, literally any Clan would be able to bid and stand an excellent chance of pulling it off.
Correct.
So why did they not do this?
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tassa_kay

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #871 on: 10 April 2024, 11:30:06 »
It gets the assests and legal rights and duties.

There's no source that says this is the case, though I could see it being argued in the Grand Council.

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All this can be opposed in more Trials of Grievance or Trials of Possession.

Now this I can actually agree with. Whichever Clan Absorbed the Jaguars would inevitably get drowned in Trials of Possession for the right to that invasion corridor, and probably lose out on their best opportunity to capitalize on it.

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IMHO the Wars of Grievance which happend after the Great Refusal and the Abjuration of the Nova Cats should have happened before.

Not really, no. The Jaguars were concealing how weak they were and how dire their circumstances were. The Wars of Possession (which is the actual name of those conflicts, not Wars of Grievance) happened when they were supposed to happen.

Quote
Correct.
So why did they not do this?

I already answered this: because they had bigger problems to worry about. The SLDF was on their proverbial doorstep and the other Clans were certainly not wanting to draw the SLDF's ire by getting involved in their Annihilation of the Jaguars.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2024, 11:36:55 by tassa_kay »
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #872 on: 04 May 2024, 11:02:00 »
Bumping this scenario up again with the additional question:

If osis is dead does brandon Howell automatically become khan of the jags?

To clarify further: if osis died/was killed at the moment he asked for help would the GC HAVE to elect a new ilkhan? We know vlad wanted it and him painting himself as the savior of the homeworlds woukd have been very on brand for him

Alan Grant

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #873 on: 05 May 2024, 16:38:08 »
One or more Khans could have easily gotten the Grand Council to delay a vote. Under any number of pretenses. There is nothing that said they had to vote a replacement that day. Even invoking some obscure procedural thing could have delayed the vote for a while.

My precedent for this is the simple fact that there hasn't always been an ilKhan. So, it isn't a post that must always be filled.

Also, after ilKhan Garrett Sainze was killed in February or March 3071. ilKhan Andrews was elected in December 3071. So the better part of a year had passed between those two events and the ramifications of that first death took time to play out. Between those two events, a lot happened. In any case it's further evidence to that fact that they didn't have to vote a successor immediately.

During this period, what we see Vlad do more than anything was stymie the other Clans. He was blunting their other efforts and playing political games. FM: CC does a decent job of showing the snapshot state of Clan Wolf about 5 months prior to the Great Refusal. What it shows is a Clan Wolf still rebuilding, still looking at a few more years of development before it's front-line galaxies would be fully refitted with Omnis and other Galaxies stood up. Working to regain prominence but still rebuilding. Vlad definitely had ambitions that Clan Wolf would one day resume an invasion of the Inner Sphere, but in 3059/3060 his Clan wasn't in a position to lead that.

In that moment any ilKhan would have been forced, first and foremost, to come up with a response to Operation Bulldog/Taskforce Serpent. Vlad was adamantly trying to ensure that there would be no response from the other Clans. Osis was calling for the other Clans to jump in, to act, and Vlad was one of the voices trying to shut that down. He was one of the voices trying to say this was a Jaguar problem, not an attack aimed at all the Clans.

The actual quote from Vlad in FM: CC is "The Jaguars may die, but the Clans are eternal." (FM: CC page 138)

So Vlad wasn't trying to portray himself as a savior of the homeworlds. He was trying to say this is a Jaguar problem and the other Clans should just stay out of it.

It's very telling that after Osis death, there was no ilKhan election. Which I think also answers your question.

Vlad was quite happy to dodge the outcome of the Great Refusal by abstaining, and quite happy to just maintain the status quo with no ilkhan. Clan Wolf needed more time. My takeaway from that was that even if he did have ambitions to be an ilKhan someday, that just wasn't the right time. But honestly I'm not even sure if he did, he was all about just promoting Clan Wolf above all others. His attitude toward the other Clans was frequently downright scornful, and that's not an attitude the other Clans want from an effective ilKhan.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2024, 16:51:04 by Alan Grant »

BrianDavion

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #874 on: 05 May 2024, 17:50:57 »
Vald's ambition was to be Ilkhan, but it wasn't to be elected to a mostly empty spot, his ambition was basicly filled by Alaric Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #875 on: 05 May 2024, 17:59:05 »
Vald's ambition was to be Ilkhan, but it wasn't to be elected to a mostly empty spot, his ambition was basicly filled by Alaric Ward

Vlad also didn't want to be Ilkhan if the Wolves weren't going to be IlClan.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #876 on: 05 May 2024, 20:06:42 »
One or more Khans could have easily gotten the Grand Council to delay a vote. Under any number of pretenses. There is nothing that said they had to vote a replacement that day. Even invoking some obscure procedural thing could have delayed the vote for a while.

My precedent for this is the simple fact that there hasn't always been an ilKhan. So, it isn't a post that must always be filled.

Also, after ilKhan Garrett Sainze was killed in February or March 3071. ilKhan Andrews was elected in December 3071. So the better part of a year had passed between those two events and the ramifications of that first death took time to play out. Between those two events, a lot happened. In any case it's further evidence to that fact that they didn't have to vote a successor immediately.

During this period, what we see Vlad do more than anything was stymie the other Clans. He was blunting their other efforts and playing political games. FM: CC does a decent job of showing the snapshot state of Clan Wolf about 5 months prior to the Great Refusal. What it shows is a Clan Wolf still rebuilding, still looking at a few more years of development before it's front-line galaxies would be fully refitted with Omnis and other Galaxies stood up. Working to regain prominence but still rebuilding. Vlad definitely had ambitions that Clan Wolf would one day resume an invasion of the Inner Sphere, but in 3059/3060 his Clan wasn't in a position to lead that.

In that moment any ilKhan would have been forced, first and foremost, to come up with a response to Operation Bulldog/Taskforce Serpent. Vlad was adamantly trying to ensure that there would be no response from the other Clans. Osis was calling for the other Clans to jump in, to act, and Vlad was one of the voices trying to shut that down. He was one of the voices trying to say this was a Jaguar problem, not an attack aimed at all the Clans.

The actual quote from Vlad in FM: CC is "The Jaguars may die, but the Clans are eternal." (FM: CC page 138)

So Vlad wasn't trying to portray himself as a savior of the homeworlds. He was trying to say this is a Jaguar problem and the other Clans should just stay out of it.

It's very telling that after Osis death, there was no ilKhan election. Which I think also answers your question.

Vlad was quite happy to dodge the outcome of the Great Refusal by abstaining, and quite happy to just maintain the status quo with no ilkhan. Clan Wolf needed more time. My takeaway from that was that even if he did have ambitions to be an ilKhan someday, that just wasn't the right time. But honestly I'm not even sure if he did, he was all about just promoting Clan Wolf above all others. His attitude toward the other Clans was frequently downright scornful, and that's not an attitude the other Clans want from an effective ilKhan.

Alan! As always you bring the facts and analysis. I think you perfectly addressed one of the very important underlying reasons why the jags were allowed to die. And in their death the jags opened a power vacuum which took attention off both the falcons and wolves who needed space to rebuild.

Hence my somewhat sarcastic “save” in my thread title any clan who attempted to preserve and or absorb the jags could not be seen as an immediate threat to wolves.

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #877 on: 07 May 2024, 15:31:40 »
I have wondered why none of the other Clans declared a Trial of Absorption for the Jaguars. At least when they knew Huntress was invaded by the Inner Sphere.
Declared?

I think you mean Propose?

And then from there either the GC has to choose that clan &/or that clan has to win the bid.

And then go make the attacks to claim those properties.

And what/where does that happen?

Vinton?  If the Sharks hadn't already taken the Jag Enclave

Certainly not Huntress which is in SLDF possession.

Strana Mechty against the Khan & his last 9 mechwarriors?

And if it is a bid, how low do they go?  I bid 8 mechs,  I bid 1 star of mechs & 2 BA points.... ...I bid ...blah blah blah.

There was no proposal because there was no time & no target.... the IS had already taken 90% of everything the Jags owned pretty much.

And GOOD LUCK laying claim to any of that with the forces from Serpent/Bulldog squatting right on them.  That's 5 houses of donation units & a bunch of mercs & even some clanners.

In the time the council could have been debating an absorption the IS showed up & said, "HI, we'd like to talk.".
As Tasha pointed out, they had other things to be thinking about.

A Clan that wins the Absorption bid would be attacking the Jaguars' existing assets, not assets they used to have. There might be an argument that they'd also win the Jaguars' rights to have an invasion corridor, but it's a flimsy one IMO.

Which has nothing to do with their chances of winning the right to Absorb another Clan. Absorptions are bid upon, per ER: Golden Century, with the right going to the Clan that bids the lowest. And at the point where Huntress is taken by the SLDF, literally any Clan would be able to bid and stand an excellent chance of pulling it off.

I'd go so far as to say No claim to the IC at all.
The Clans already had clans in line for that,  (Vipers/Cats/Sharks) and the Sharks were the current "Reserve" & due a shot at a full corridor.
Anyone else ranked lower than the top 7 is going to need to EARN that shot IMO.

There is precedence for a clan being awarded the right & not bid for it as in the Adders/Burrocks/Spirits scenario.

That said, given the Scorps & Sharks were snatching up enclaves, I'm really not sure what there was to "Award" that some other clan (or IS) didn't lay claim to by force of arms.

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #878 on: 17 June 2024, 17:14:35 »
Exodus Road is probably the best Clan novel, and it mirrors the history of actual infamous historical traitors like Benedict Arnold almost perfectly in that it wasn't a moral disillusionment that motivated him but grievance over a series of real or perceived personal slights. Nevertheless there's a real pathos in seeing a man turn on his own people, but since it's the Jags you don't have to feel too bad.

And yet the book did a great job of making me appreciate the jags AND hate the really bad ones

Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #879 on: 13 July 2024, 12:49:30 »
Can you imagine how that trial would look like? When Lincoln Osis fled from Huntress the Jaguars had a binary left. Even if they had won they might have cobbled up one Galaxy at most. Plus perhaps 1 or 2 warships. The Jaguars were already dead at that point I feel absorption would have been a meaningless gesture. And probably honorless as well.If you want their resources you can just walk in and take it.

Excellent point, as you and Lincoln osis noted that binary at the great refusal was all they had left. So if the crusaders had won what was the jags plan? They would have been rolled by any clan who challenged them…

Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #880 on: 13 July 2024, 13:40:11 »
I think when the last Jaguars had won their trial in the Great Refusal (crushing Victor and his consorts), the Jaguars might have been given a moratorium for rebuilding.

If they lost, but the Crusaders won, there would have been a call for absorption.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #881 on: 21 July 2024, 10:09:05 »
I think when the last Jaguars had won their trial in the Great Refusal (crushing Victor and his consorts), the Jaguars might have been given a moratorium for rebuilding.

If they lost, but the Crusaders won, there would have been a call for absorption.

But as the leader of a decimated clan osis would have had to be replaced as ilkhan surely?

Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #882 on: 21 July 2024, 13:18:21 »
But as the leader of a decimated clan osis would have had to be replaced as ilkhan surely?

A trial of position, if there would have been still an ilKhan needed. After losing the Trial of Refusal to the Inner Sphere, the whole matter of Operation Revival was void.
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Hellraiser

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #883 on: 21 July 2024, 14:23:52 »
A trial of position, if there would have been still an ilKhan needed.
Trial of Position for what?
iLKhan?
It's an elected position.
Pretty sure the council could just vote to replace him.
Assuming they had the votes.
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Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #884 on: 23 July 2024, 13:20:13 »
My mistake, I meant a Trial of Grievance.

Lincoln Osis has led his Clan to utter annihilation and due his incompetence (Clan  vulgo "unwarriorness") even endangered the other Clans because of the Spheroid invasion of the Homeworlds

Same as Vlad Ward and ilKhan Elias Critchell, I think.
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