Betrayal of Ideals Epilogue -- Spoilers!

[abou]

So, ComStar finds Barbados in 3041. Nothing much else is said beyond that, but massive implications are present. I would love to read a story where the survey photos from the mission connect with symbols of the invading Clans. That moment where Focht is looking Ulric Kerensky in the eye and thinks, I know something that you don't know that I know!

But what about those carved seats and relatively fresh flowers? Are the Khans of the Clans passing down the true information of the Wolverines to their successors and visiting Barbados in secret out of a collective guilt? Is it Wolverine survivors?

Ugh, so much that I want to be revealed! But will the authors ever tie up that thread out of fear that they could never achieve the epic conclusion we want?

[Decoy]

I would imagine that they visited Barbados for the same reason that Khan Sennet's report on the War of Reaving was probably passed down. This is what happened. Don't let it happen again.

[Empyrus]

Logically, there are Wolverine descendants still living in the Periphery and Deep Periphery, otherwise there would be no fresh flowers and apparently the site was changed since Nicholas Kerensky left.
I doubt these descendants are more than small colonies and perhaps pirates and bandits though, even if they keep up a tradition of honoring their ancestors, or something like that.

I'll note that the information collected by the ComStar may not have found its way to Focht or other ComStar leaders.

If the matter was pursued further, it could explain the Jihad Secrets Wolverine story:

Like, the ComStar follows trails a bit, perhaps not right away but within 20-30 years, finds clues, perhaps some data files from Wolverine bases or survivors or whatever, and together with data brought from the Operation Bulldog and Phelan Kell's writings, tells them the rough story of the Wolverines. Then, during the Jihad, this information is used to manufacture the journal for Stone so that he can convince the Ghost Bears to join the Coalition.
(The Wolverine Journal is likely a fake because the dates given don't match dates in Betrayal of Ideals, and the novels are arguably highest order of canon since they tell things as they were (of course, an error on part of the Journal's writer in-universe could be possible but seems somewhat unlikely). But it does have a lot realistic information, so it may well be based on the real events and data, and such things might have been found from Barbados or wherever Wolverine-descendants might be living.)

The Wolverine-WOB connection sounds too incredible to me and i regard it as a hoax in-universe. But i find my theory somewhat plausible... or at least slightly more believable.

[abou]

What does happen with ComStar's search would be another wonderful story to tell. The details of the SLS Zughoffer Weir would be the best example that I can think of.

Personally, I have this hope that the Khans of the Clans hold a certain cynicism about their origins and Kerensky. However, I admit that the carved symbols in the arch with 19 logos X-ed out speaks to visitation from Wolverine survivors.

[Stormlion1]

An issue I see is that the Clans never returned to Barbados. Or maybe one clan may have at one point and erected the monuments.

[Mendrugo]

The descendants of either the Minnesota Tribe, the Zughoffer Weir crew, or the missing picket fleet probably set up shop somewhere once they stopped running and go back to Barbados for ceremonial reasons from time to time.  The Minnesotans are the least likely candidate, logistically, since their base world was on the far side of the Inner Sphere, near the Magistracy of Canopus.

[Empyrus]

Err, why do you say Minnesotans had a base near MoC?

Everything i know indicates the Minnesota Tribe was a group (if not all) of Wolverine survivors, who raided the Dracs and then disappeared.
Logically, these survivors could likely have founded a colony somewhere between the Clan Space and Inner Sphere, if not on Barbados itself (since the SLDF Exodus fleet didn't settle there, i think the world has something highly problematic that makes it undesirable as a permanent colony), or perhaps merged with local bandit kingdoms and whatever else.


As for the Zughoffer Weir, alias Blake's Sword, i think the ComStar/WoB found the ship abandoned, perhaps because they searched systems around Barbados because of what was found there. Uncle Chandy's data implies recovery date of '61, but if the data was stolen from WoB's databases, it is probably a fake entry to cover the real origin of the ship. Still, it could have been recovered around then. I would not be surprised if the WoBlies had been nosing around the Barbados, either to find more clues about the Wolverines or to scout the systems in preparation for the eventual war against the Clans, and finding the Zughoffer Weir.

[Frabby]

Given that Barbados seems a perfectly habitable garden world, one wonders what disqualified it from settlement by Kerensky's exodus fleet. Or if the same reasons applied to the Wolverines. Otherwise, they might simply have settled the world.

[Empyrus]

Given that Barbados seems a perfectly habitable garden world, one wonders what disqualified it from settlement by Kerensky's exodus fleet. Or if the same reasons applied to the Wolverines. Otherwise, they might simply have settled the world.

I suspect it might have extremely scarce resources (specifically metals) which might be a problem for a fledgling colony.
Or perhaps it has very little land area despite having 4 continents. Or really, really bad storms. Or diseases that would be dangerous for a new colony.

I think the book mentioned it couldn't resupply the whole Exodus fleet, which kinda implies it lacks resources, and the system it is in might be kinda problematic as well. Let's say there are no other planets with easily accessible resources and/or no moons whatsoever. Or perhaps the nearby systems do no have any inhabitable planets, making settling the place equivalent of "all eggs in one basket". When you think about it, the Exodus Fleet did end up settling 5 worlds at once, and the Second Exodus started settling additional worlds pretty soon after finding their way to Strana Mechty.

[Dragon Cat]

Maybe it hasn't gotten anything around it to be useful like no nebula concealing it from the Inner Sphere or extra resources like the Pentagon and Kerensky Cluster

[Mendrugo]

Err, why do you say Minnesotans had a base near MoC?

Everything i know indicates the Minnesota Tribe was a group (if not all) of Wolverine survivors, who raided the Dracs and then disappeared.

The opening fiction from The Interstellar Expeditions sourcebook is set in the 3090s, at an archaeological dig on a world near McEvedy's Folly where the team has found a destroyed bunker containing equipment bearing the Clan Wolverine insignia.  They get obliterated by unknown parties using Celestial equipment before they can report the find.  We don't know if the base was "live" circa 3041.

[rebs]

That is great stuff. 

But, and I hate to say it, we don't know if that's their base or not. 

[Empyrus]

Maybe it hasn't gotten anything around it to be useful like no nebula concealing it from the Inner Sphere or extra resources like the Pentagon and Kerensky Cluster

Well, thanks to lightspeed considerations, i don't think this is a big issue... perhaps it wasn't simply far enough? Barbados is described as being 35 jumps from the Homeworlds, along the Exodus Road, so it would be somewhere within 400 LY from the Inner Sphere, i think. This is guesswork though, based on eyeballing a map.

The opening fiction from The Interstellar Expeditions sourcebook is set in the 3090s, at an archaeological dig on a world near McEvedy's Folly where the team has found a destroyed bunker containing equipment bearing the Clan Wolverine insignia.  They get obliterated by unknown parties using Celestial equipment before they can report the find.  We don't know if the base was "live" circa 3041.

I believe i saw someone note Touring the Stars McEvedy's Folly explains the place's name etc. and effectively kills the theory of it being a Minnesota home. Though i don't have idea when the TTS books are set, if they're pre-3090s, then someone could have moved (fake?) Wolverine stuff to the planet.

I don't think the Minnesota Tribe settled there, way too far away. Going through the Sphere would be risky, and going around would add to the distance so much the trip wouldn't be really feasible with the small amount of resources Wolverine survivors would likely have. Blow a helium seal in deep space and your ship's a loss pretty much.

[Mendrugo]

That is great stuff. 

But, and I hate to say it, we don't know if that's their base or not.

The rest of the I.E. book has some more details, including that archeologists have followed the trail of the Tribe around the Inner Sphere and past the Outworlds Alliance, only to have the trail go cold out beyond the Magistracy.  The inhabitants of McEvedy's Folly claim the Tribe stopped there to resupply, but moved on to an unknown destination.  The base world may not be a relic of the Minnesota Tribe, bit if not, it's an extremely elaborate fake that people are willing to kill to keep secret (which would be odd if it were fake).

[abou]

McEvedy's Folly was named after the scientist who went a little bit Dr. Moreau. In fact, there is no mention of the Minnesota Tribe in the Touring the Stars entry.

[Mendrugo]

McEvedy's Folly was named after the scientist who went a little bit Dr. Moreau. In fact, there is no mention of the Minnesota Tribe in the Touring the Stars entry.

Correct.  But there is a mention of the Minnesota Tribe having stopped at McEvedy's Folly for supplies (according to local folklore) in Interstellar Expeditions.

[Stormlion1]

Hints are the Wolverines that Kerensky didn't catch circled the Inner Sphere until they were opposite the Clan Homeworlds as much as they could be and kept right on going. So it is possible they stopped at McEvedy's Folly. A world they would have had records of and could have taken advantage of for possible resources.

Myself, I like the old saying that there off beyond the rim fighting off the aliens we don't have in the game.

[Dragon Cat]

Providing an army of light for the first ones... Erm maybe not...

[Sharpnel]

The opening fiction from The Interstellar Expeditions sourcebook is set in the 3090s, at an archaeological dig on a world near McEvedy's Folly where the team has found a destroyed bunker containing equipment bearing the Clan Wolverine insignia.  They get obliterated by unknown parties using Celestial equipment before they can report the find.  We don't know if the base was "live" circa 3041.

Funny, none f this was mentioned in the Touring the Stars: McEvedy' Folly PDF. At least not that I can remember

[roosterboy]

Funny, none f this was mentioned in the Touring the Stars: McEvedy' Folly PDF. At least not that I can remember

Why would it? The story in ISP3 didn't even take place on McEvedy's Folly.

[Knightmare]

Why would it? The story in ISP3 didn't even take place on McEvedy's Folly.

Exactly.

Given the disintegration that befell the Wolverines during their flight from the homeworlds it wouldn't surprise me if bits and pieces of the survivors ended up in different locations. It's not outside the realm of possibility that some small survivor group(s) stayed near Barbados, while others made their way around the Inner Sphere. There's also the possibility that the larger, main refugee convoys lost additional groupings along the way, or had some double back due to accident, on purpose, etc.

The point is, once things fell apart for the Wolverines I don't see a problem with their unity fragmenting even further.

[Stormlion1]

I've always figured four groups, the ships that jumped from Barbados, including one noted Battleship. Possibly another that may have become the Ummayyads, one group that joined Comstar nd those who said no to Comstar and continued in there Exodus.

[Knightmare]

I've always figured four groups: the ships that jumped from Barbados, including one noted Battleship, possibly another that may have become the Ummayyads, one group that joined ComStar, and those who said no to ComStar and continued on their Exodus.

Well, we know the Wolverines didn't become the Umayyads.

[Mendrugo]

We don't know that for sure - the lost third picket fleet could have wandered on a course perpendicular to the Exodus Road for years and then arrived at Nueva Castille.  The lack of genetic traces may just mean the bloodlines are pure and well hidden, or that the Escorpions aren't searching very effectively.  It is a longshot, however, and the new scene is a strong argument that they didn't go too far away from Barbados.

[Knightmare]

I'm leaning more towards the idea they didn't become Umayyads based on the data, but you're right, it's not definitive.

[BrokenMnemonic]

Looking at the Blake Documents, the entry on the Spanish worlds simply says that it's a signal from a small cluster of worlds, anti-spinward of their path; that it's Spanish, and there it appears there's a technologically advanced colony out there they might be able to trade with. Given that it's reported in Era Digest: Age of War that the Castilian Principalities were founded in 2392, it would seem unlikely to be Nueva Castille, because even if the Star League didn't care about it as a state (and it doesn't seem to have attracted any interest from anyone) it was presumably a known quantity, and not something that would take a group with Star League era records by surprise, I think?

Nueva Castille isn't the only place where Spanish is commonly spoken, either - IIRC one of the Avellars managed to get the Star League to acknowledge Spanish as the second primary language in the Outworlds Alliance at one point, so it could be that the Wolverines encountered a cluster of worlds set up by people from the Alliance - the number of mining colonies (and the location of a province called Traders Domain) implies there was a fair amount of traffic within the Alliance to allow it to expand as far as it did during the Star League era, and it wouldn't be the first time a group of people looked at the Inner Sphere and decided to go off in another direction during a crisis. Maybe what the Wolverines stumbled across was the New Delphi Compact - and some long-dead Wolverine is having a good laugh about deliberately leaving hints so that pursuers from the Clans end up landing on worlds infected with the Curse to do some righteous smiting, only to end up infecting all their friends...

[MightyBolamite]

Well I wanted weigh in, as I have just finished the book, and I really wanted to talk to some about it.
First off, I loved it. There was a time where I thought the Clans had a pretty cool society, but I outgrew that. It was kind of nice to see a faction kinda echo what I'm thinking. It was really great to see how egomaniacal Nicholas was; just... wow.

I'd also like to say that I've never really accepted, or liked, the idea that the remnants of the Wolverines became Blakists. I just hate that. So I'm rather glad that the book doesn't take it that far. Plus, the ending tends to confirm those Blake documents are hoaxes, which please me (though still not outside the realm of possibility).

I too am quite curious about the monument at the end. Interesting is the 16 chairs and the crossed out clans.
Secretly, I hope the Wolverines are off on their own homeworlds, developing incredible technology to take revenge on the clan homeworlds. Or maybe they were behind The Society, I dunno.

[Dulahan]

I, too, hope the Wolverines didn't become the Wobbies.  Just... doesn't seem to fit, or at the very, very least a SEVERE betrayal of the ideals the clan seemed to eschew.  (See what I did there? ;) )

Here's a thought, what if Devlin Stone is actually the Wolverine Khan?  Or somehow tied to the Wolverines?  Or do we know enough about him now that's impossible?

[Maelwys]

We don't know anything about Devlin Stone, as far as I know. I believe CGL basically has released no information about him, other than "He was at Kittery."

[MightyBolamite]

That would be really cool, though he did kind of disappear.