Will Human expand further?

[JASON9]

Sorry If this topic have already been posted.
It have been more than 300 years since the end of the SL and we still see the same map. Except for the Clan homeworld will human expand further in the Battletech universe?
We know that the Battletech universe are a very small percentage of the Milky Way Galaxy.

[Weirdo]

Check out Interstellar Expeditions: humanity has gone VERY far beyond the Inner Sphere and near Periphery. It's just that most of those settlements and nations are too small and/or remote for them to have any real effect on the larger story.

[Paul]

The Succession Wars have stalled significant human progress by about 5-6 centuries. Advancements now are minor and incremental in proportion.

Which is fine; arguably there are too many factions in BT, not too few.

[pheonixstorm]

Or just too large of a set of factions. One can never have too many potential employers to fight for or against.

[The_Caveman]

The Succession Wars have stalled significant human progress by about 5-6 centuries. Advancements now are minor and incremental in proportion.

Which is fine; arguably there are too many factions in BT, not too few.

Most of those factions only exist for flavor, though. There are less than 10 that really impact the universe at any given time.

[Frabby]

Not sure I agree with the OP's premise here.

Interstellar Expeditions has expanded deep periphery maps that show a plethora of settled worlds and even mini-realms quite far out there.
You need to remember that space is big. The entire BattleTech universe could have fit into the Sol system with room to spare; 2000 light-years in every direction is mind-bogglingly vast. Pushing our strange 2d Kearny-Fuchida projection of the sphere out further gives ever more volume to map out and settle. Expansion at this point is just pointless, there's more than enough room already.

That, and nobody ever said the known maps would be complete. They're invariably presented as in-universe documents.

[JadeHellbringer]

Remember that for a few hundred years now, humanity's primary goal has been to kill each other and rule KNOWN space. Expanding further out for the Successor States means having to go to war with Periphery powers that can prove difficult (Marians, Taurians, etc.), or at the very least strain supply lines by colonizing worlds that now need supporting- and putting new strains on the jumpship fleets.

Nah. Easier to take what the neighbors already have than go find new stuff.  ^-^

[False Son]

Expansion has also occurred closer to home.  The New Colony Region and the Far Looker movements, for example.

[StoneRhino]

I think the problem that is causing the OP to ask this question is that Battletech has always been focused upon the InnerSphere, by that I mean the various houses. This is of course the premise of the game. But, that is not to suggest that those that have forged their own little bubbles of civilization have not been given some attention.

I would say that the reason that we do not see much about these far flung colonies is that Battletech has always focused upon the Battlemech. The Battlemech requires a significantly higher technological base, which requires greater wealth and a much greater industrial base then one would find in a colony outside of the "inner sphere" of humanity's expansion into the stars.

To the OP, I would say that there are products that cover these outer sphere colonies. But, I would also like to suggest that it is unlikely that we will ever see these out sphere colonies rise up to the level of power to rival the houses or the clans. The potential may be there due to the raw materials, space, and lack of major predators, but the population would not be large enough for some time.

I think it would be interesting to see outer sphere colonies covered. The main reason is that they would be reliant upon vehicles and infantry. That could lead to a new TRO covering a bunch of new vehicles that are low tech by I.S. standards, but hopefully something that could be used in a BT game. It might get even more interesting if some factions took interest in these outersphere worlds for some reason.

[I am Belch II]

Is there really any reason to expand that much further out there ??

[False Son]

Is there really any reason to expand that much further out there ??

For resource exploitation, sure.  For living space, no.  Perhaps to build a factory world to intentionally pollute, pull up stakes and resettle somewhere else... maybe.  If there is one thing i've learned from history it is that anywhere there is a patch of Terra Nullius someone is willing to settle down.  Could be prospectors.  Could be defectors or mutineers.  Could be religious breakaways trying to find a place to practice.

[The_Caveman]

The main impetus for founding new colonies post-2750 would be having a place to hide.

Most planets in BT are extremely sparsely populated*, and what population there is normally crams itself into a handful of ultra-dense urban areas, leaving the rest of the planet to agrarian use or completely abandoned. There's very little need for anyone to have an entire planet to themselves unless they're doing secret military/scientific stuff, or are in opposition to the local ruling faction. Even war refugees would generally have little need to go beyond the Inner Sphere when there is plenty of room on settled worlds in the relatively safe core regions of the Successor States and major Periphery kingdoms--except in the case of people who are political pariahs.

Even the Clans, with their inhospitable homeworlds and huge rate of population growth, didn't feel the need to colonize beyond the Kerensky Cluster in any serious way.

There will always be a few people striking out into the unknown looking for solitude or fortune or what-have-you, but that happens very slowly and sparsely. The age of mass colonization waves is pretty much over.

Even if there was any impetus to go out and expand into the Deep Periphery, there'd be pretty much nowhere to go. One of the reasons the Inner Sphere has the shape it does, is it constitutes a "bubble" of space that's conducive to life-friendly worlds. Garden worlds are very rare in the BT universe (to the extent that much of the IS as we know it was only made habitable by Star League terraforming projects), and beyond the near Periphery they become even less frequent. Whether it's a lack of water or the common star types being inimical to life in those regions, the areas beyond the frontier are fairly inhospitable. Up until just before the dark ages the level of technology needed to go out and settle those places was lacking. There may be more areas like the Inner Sphere with hundreds or thousands of habitable systems, but they're so far away that any colonies in those regions would be totally on their own, without even regular communication with the rest of mankind.

*Somewhat off topic, but how the IS is supposed to be home to "trillions" of souls is beyond me. Most of the IS and near Periphery planets are settled to the tune of a few tens of millions, or even less. The planets that have over a billion people are mainly sector capitals or major industrial worlds. One trillion, for the entire Inner Sphere, might be reasonable.

[Paul]

Is there really any reason to expand that much further out there ??

Humanity should be at near 2 trillion, and have hundreds of planets at the multi-billion mark by now, 5,000+ total colonized.
It's well short of that.
Better hope aliens stay away, we're easy pickings even if we win the lottery and they happen to be at our tech base.

[The_Caveman]

So this thread got me thinking about really deep space exploration in BattleTech, and I started crunching the numbers, which led me to come up with this infographic:



For space considerations it's scaled down considerably from the full-size version (Link to download full size).

The boundaries of the Inner Sphere and Kerensky Cluster are marked in red. The orange rings represent the furthest distance that a JumpShip could get from Terra in a series of consecutive jumps at the minimum safe recharge time, going in a straight line. Solid lines are odd numbers of years' travel time, dashed lines are even numbers.

The green lines represent a more conservative approach to deep space exploration, using the typical jump rate of Kerensky's Exodus fleet. Although Kerensky was forced to stop after just two years because of mutinously low morale in the fleet, a dedicated expedition of volunteer explorers or colonists could go much further. I drew lines representing 10 and 25 years of migration, respectively.

As you can see from the map, there isn't any place in the Milky Way that couldn't be reached by a sufficiently well-prepared expedition. Even a group of colonists actively searching for a permanent homeworld could have crossed large swaths of the galaxy within two generations, and done so as early as the 24th century, nevermind the height of the Star League. So it's entirely possible that the Inner Sphere is just the tip of the iceberg where humanity is concerned. A few thousand hardy settlers could have readily created their own Star League in the Perseus Arm and they'd be far beyond the reach of the Explorer Corps.

[I am Belch II]

As big and pouplated as the Inner Sphere is its still nothing in the grand scale of the Galaxy.

[Sir Chaos]

So this thread got me thinking about really deep space exploration in BattleTech, and I started crunching the numbers, which led me to come up with this infographic:



For space considerations it's scaled down considerably from the full-size version (Link to download full size).

The boundaries of the Inner Sphere and Kerensky Cluster are marked in red. The orange rings represent the furthest distance that a JumpShip could get from Terra in a series of consecutive jumps at the minimum safe recharge time, going in a straight line. Solid lines are odd numbers of years' travel time, dashed lines are even numbers.

The green lines represent a more conservative approach to deep space exploration, using the typical jump rate of Kerensky's Exodus fleet. Although Kerensky was forced to stop after just two years because of mutinously low morale in the fleet, a dedicated expedition of volunteer explorers or colonists could go much further. I drew lines representing 10 and 25 years of migration, respectively.

As you can see from the map, there isn't any place in the Milky Way that couldn't be reached by a sufficiently well-prepared expedition. Even a group of colonists actively searching for a permanent homeworld could have crossed large swaths of the galaxy within two generations, and done so as early as the 24th century, nevermind the height of the Star League. So it's entirely possible that the Inner Sphere is just the tip of the iceberg where humanity is concerned. A few thousand hardy settlers could have readily created their own Star League in the Perseus Arm and they'd be far beyond the reach of the Explorer Corps.

Why would anyone want to go that far?

Even in the unrealistic 2D galaxy BT is set in, the numer of star systems within reach increases with the square of the distance travelled. We have, what, 2,000 settled systems within 300 LY of Terra? Assuming those are all systems within that range that CAN be settled, and assuming that the density of habitable world is the same everywhere, there should be 50,000 potential colony locations within 1,500 LY, roughly the distance from Terra to the Kerensky Cluster - and over 500,000 potential colony locations within 5,000 LY.

If some group wants to leave the Inner Sphere and disappear without a trace to never be found again, there´s plenty of space for that within a couple thousand light-years, basically the blue dashed line in your image.

[False Son]

If some group wants to leave the Inner Sphere and disappear without a trace to never be found again, there´s plenty of space for that within a couple thousand light-years, basically the blue dashed line in your image.

Perhaps there is another Kerensky Cluster situation where a group wants to set up an expansive society, just away from the current swathe of humanity.

[Kovax]

Getting someone to commit to something for several years for the sake of exploring is one thing; getting thousands of people to go for their entire lives and most of the lives of their descendants borders of incredulity.  The Clans, fleeing a collapsing civilization and with a military command structure imposing its orders on the volunteers, still faced mutiny after 2 years.  I can't picture ANY situation where an expedition would continue running, without stopping to search for a potential new home, after 5-10 years at absolute maximum.  Now, someone running in turn from THAT civilization might go another couple of years, but you're talking about a small splinter group off of an already small civilization.  Anything beyond 10 years of travel time borders on ludicrous for more than a handful of isolated individuals who have dedicated their lives to what's probably a one-way dead-end trip.

The habitability "bubble" doesn't mean that there aren't habitable planets beyond that range, just that the odds go down, and you'll find a lower ratio of habitable ones to uninhabitable ones.  The knowledge of that lower ratio makes it even less desirable to seek a new life "somewhere out there", because the search at the end of the trip is not likely to be successful anyway.

There are undoubtedly thousands of systems in the Inner Sphere and near Periphery which have not been explored, or only given a cursory look by corporate prospectors for a few specific qualities (mineral resources) and then forgotten.  Mankind already has a tremendous potential for expansion within the borders of the Inner Sphere, and the near Periphery extends that by an order of magnitude.  With so many uninhabited and unexplored systems within a few jumps range, why go further?

[Maingunnery]

Getting someone to commit to something for several years for the sake of exploring is one thing; getting thousands of people to go for their entire lives and most of the lives of their descendants borders of incredulity.  The Clans, fleeing a collapsing civilization and with a military command structure imposing its orders on the volunteers, still faced mutiny after 2 years.

Bad example, the SLDF exodus didn't give anyone an idea of how far they would travel, this prevented them from mentally preparing.

With so many uninhabited and unexplored systems within a few jumps range, why go further?

If colonists go very far, then the chances of ever being attacked by other drops hard.

[Gaiiten]

I still hope for the Homeclans. They have need to expand, getting new resources and new paturelands.

[The_Caveman]

Getting someone to commit to something for several years for the sake of exploring is one thing; getting thousands of people to go for their entire lives and most of the lives of their descendants borders of incredulity.

It's not unheard-of IRL. Niccolo and Marco Polo, for example. Actually for the majority of history, this was how migrating to a new place worked. We're spoiled by the "small world" effect of fast transit times in the modern era. In the past, if you wanted to pick up stakes and move somewhere beyond the borders of your own country, it was likely to be a lifelong commitment.

Anything beyond 10 years of travel time borders on ludicrous for more than a handful of isolated individuals who have dedicated their lives to what's probably a one-way dead-end trip.

Maybe so, but remember there are hundreds of years of time in the BattleTech universe for humanity to have spread out. A migratory group that left Terra in the 23rd century, traveled for a few years, set up a colony, and had descendants who moved on after a generation or two could easily have offspring living on the other side of the galaxy by 3025.

Actually, given that there is a "galactic habitable zone" imposed by the low gas density in the outer rim and strong radiation near the core, and the best places to find earthlike planets are going to be on the fringes of galactic arms, there's a pretty strong impetus to travel long distances if you're looking for a new home with plenty of room to expand. A group that has a "manifest destiny" view of itself, maybe the followers of a religion, might go looking for such a place outside the Orion spur.

[Daryk]

Whatever else is discussed here, that is one brilliant infographic! O0

[Paul]

Whatever else is discussed here, that is one brilliant infographic! O0

Agreed! Good job, Caveman.

[False Son]

A group that has a "manifest destiny" view of itself, maybe the followers of a religion, might go looking for such a place outside the Orion spur.

I wouldn't underestimate the influence of this factor.  IRL members of the human species are considering the long, dangerous migration to Mars.  This is not a habitable world in the traditional sense.  No breathable atmosphere, 1/3 gravity, temperatures well below those a human is comfortable surviving.  And yet, people are putting their minds, their capital and their lives to this project for no reason other than we can. 

[Gaiiten]

I wouldn't underestimate the influence of this factor.  IRL members of the human species are considering the long, dangerous migration to Mars.  This is not a habitable world in the traditional sense.  No breathable atmosphere, 1/3 gravity, temperatures well below those a human is comfortable surviving.  And yet, people are putting their minds, their capital and their lives to this project for no reason other than we can.

Deep inside all humans are explorers. Denying this is denying our humaneness.

[Bedwyr]

I wouldn't underestimate the influence of this factor.  IRL members of the human species are considering the long, dangerous migration to Mars.  This is not a habitable world in the traditional sense.  No breathable atmosphere, 1/3 gravity, temperatures well below those a human is comfortable surviving.  And yet, people are putting their minds, their capital and their lives to this project for no reason other than we can.

Agreed. I would say that if you decide to ignore the dreadful algebra of narrative necessity, the same one that calls for the periphery to be "out there somewhere" and for the earth to always be centered, then this is likely. You still have to keep the other colonial impulses intact, though. Given that combination and assuming a still normal distribution of main sequence stars and habitable planets, I would see major periphery nations proliferate. The Inner Sphere would ultimately look like null sec in Eve Online.

But we have this structure for a great many reasons. One is the set of narrative girders providing structure to a now decades long story. Another is so that we don't make continuity editors and map makers go crazier than they already are.

But yes. Independent of the story, other big nations would rise out there.

[False Son]

But yes. Independent of the story, other big nations would rise out there.

The Canopians and to a lesser extent Calderon Protectorate are trying.  I feel like this sort of thing is now possible because the narrative's slavish callback to the 1st Star League is passing away.  The Clan Homeworlds were possible because of their SLDF roots.  Now it seems that a Magistracy of Canopus with their own resources and momentum could be possible because of the initiatives that begun under Emma and maybe her progenitor.

[Hythos]

Pre-3060, I recall having read of planets/systems which through the ages were abandoned, or never settled - leaving many other star-systems within the InnerSphere as potential hide-aways for pirates, or Lostech caches.

Also, I never read/heard how a Starship navigator would plot points, if from only known, scanned, or observable stars, and how they would plot points to 'deep space'. Obviously for one to actually jump to a 'ghost' system, they would need to have some knowledge or sensor-readings of its presence.

Short of GM'ing up data that players could find (along with the planetary creation rules from AToW Companion) - what's the likelihood or probability that anything of an unknown / abandoned system could be located/traveled-to? Within the IS?

[Fireangel]

The maps mark only the locations of systems that are:

A) known
B) inhabited
C) affiliated

There are plenty more systems in the IS other than the ones shown on the maps.

[marauder648]

Excellent map :)