3050- Rethinking the Toumans for the invasion

[Colt Ward]

Rereading the BoK trilogy made me wonder again about the originally planned size of the Clan toumans.

Now each invading Clan came in with a ballpark 12-20 clusters, their warships, and large fleets of JS/DS.  But during the campaign it was nothing for Ulric to summon forward 26 PGCs to garrison the worlds they took and other Clans followed suit.  The numbers Phelan provided to his interrogators for mech regiments in each House they found a bit shocking- odd considering the Dragoons reports were not too old- but they did not cause a change of plans.  Ulric was also able to pull those 26 clusters out of the Homeworlds without the other Clans knowing or finding Wolf holdings undefended.

While we never get a solid look at the Clan strength at the time of Revival there are theoretical counts for the cluster strength of the Invaders based on sources & names.  What strength do you think the Invaders would have been at based on early materials keeping in mind some of the characteristics- for example what we saw of the Falcon's touman had more & slightly larger clusters than the Wolves but they were mostly veteran skills while the Wolves had more elite clusters.

[bobthecoward]

About 60?

If we look at the field manuals the strongest clans are

Coyote 35 clusters
Ghost bear 58
Steel viper 45
Hells horses 37
Jade falcon 49 understrength
Star adder 52

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but the FMs are after the Invasion.  I know the guess is the Bears did not lose much strength, but the Jaguars and Falcons should have been about the same with IMO the Wolves a bit less due to the previous elite vs veteran difference cited earlier.

I would have to dig up the count Dan once did and IIRC Rage also cross-checked it . . . but I was wondering what people thought considering at the invasion time a cluster was considered equivalent to a regiment.  The Dracs, Feds and Lyrans all had over 100 regiments, League was in the 80s IIRC and of course the Cappies were below that and the Rassies lower.

[bobthecoward]

My thinking was that the mid 30s of the coyotes and hell horses is consistent with their general perception as second tier. Star adder post absorption is probably comparable to wolf and smoke Jaguar that absorbed a lesser clan.

[Archangel]

Rereading the BoK trilogy made me wonder again about the originally planned size of the Clan toumans.

At the time they probably dismissed the issue as unimportant.  To be fair it wasn't important as they could always decide the actual sizes later when it did needed to be addressed.

Now each invading Clan came in with a ballpark 12-20 clusters, their warships, and large fleets of JS/DS.  But during the campaign it was nothing for Ulric to summon forward 26 PGCs to garrison the worlds they took and other Clans followed suit.

26 PGCs were summoned into the Inner Sphere but were they all full-strength PGCs?

The numbers Phelan provided to his interrogators for mech regiments in each House they found a bit shocking- odd considering the Dragoons reports were not too old- but they did not cause a change of plans.

Why would it?  Most likely dismissed as lies or misinformation.  Even if they did believe him it was too late to change their bid and nobody wanted to be the first to admit that perhaps they underbid.  Not only would it cost them a huge loss of face but forced them to accept the assistance of the Steel Vipers (which the Ghost Bears were forced to do to their dismay given their rivalry) rather than permitted them to increase their forces.  Plus many were overconfident after their mostly easy victories in the Periphery and believed those forces were representative of the forces of the Inner Sphere.  Finally weren't going to all be facing them on the next couple worlds but were spread out across numerous systems.

Ulric was also able to pull those 26 clusters out of the Homeworlds without the other Clans knowing or finding Wolf holdings undefended.

Are you really surprised?  They were PGCs not front-line units.  Heck they weren't even second-line units.  Who really pays attention to them?  As for their holdings, as an Invading Clan they were protected. it would have been dishonorable to stab them in the back while they were focused on the Invasion and could potentially lead to consequences within the Grand Council ("undermining the invasion" blah blah blah).  Besides those holdings guarded solely by PGCs aren't likely worth much to begin with.

[bobthecoward]

I'm pretty sure it was not dishonorable to attack invading clan holdings.

[Deadborder]

I'm pretty sure it was not dishonorable to attack invading clan holdings.

I don't recall the exact quote, but it was seen as such. Sort of a case of "attacking an enemy who is allready engaged with another enemy" situation.

Also bear in mind that the Star Adder numbers are post-absorption which, Blood Spirits aside, was relatively bloodless and allowed them to absorb Burrock Clusters/Galaxies wholesale. Up until that point, the Adders had only been a mid-tier clan in terms of size.

[bobthecoward]

I don't recall the exact quote, but it was seen as such. Sort of a case of "attacking an enemy who is allready engaged with another enemy" situation.

Also bear in mind that the Star Adder numbers are post-absorption which, Blood Spirits aside, was relatively bloodless and allowed them to absorb Burrock Clusters/Galaxies wholesale. Up until that point, the Adders had only been a mid-tier clan in terms of size.

Which is why I said they serve as a good guide for how high the smoke jaguars and wolves could be.

[pensiveswetness]

I thought the Steel Vipers augmented the Falcons, The Nova Cats augmented the Smoke Jaguars OZ's (and nobody augmented the Ghost Bear holdings because they & Clan Wolf were fine, overall)?

[Gaiiten]

I don't recall the exact quote, but it was seen as such. Sort of a case of "attacking an enemy who is allready engaged with another enemy" situation.

Also bear in mind that the Star Adder numbers are post-absorption which, Blood Spirits aside, was relatively bloodless and allowed them to absorb Burrock Clusters/Galaxies wholesale. Up until that point, the Adders had only been a mid-tier clan in terms of size.

The Absorption War cost the Adder 3 galaxies worth of troops, the Burrocks four galaxies and the Blood Spirits 5 galaxies worth of troops. This are 12 (!) galaxies. Hardly relatively bloodless.

[Colt Ward]

The Blood Spirits losses are distorted due to their nature.

I actually think the Adders should have been considered one of the larger Clans, we were given a fluff bit about how they took the Dragoon data and came out with a different cut down in the bidding.

[Hellraiser]

Pretty sure if you look at the Wolf & WIE total forces in the 50's you can find those 26 PGCs either as still existing or as being mentioned as destroyed/disbanded to fill in front line losses.

I have a chart somewhere between 3 PCs of Hard drives where I plotted out every named cluster I could find & they were up north of 50 clusters IIRC.

That said, less than 16? would have been Front Line IIRC.
Tukayyid gives you 13 Front Line names & I think I found 2-3 other clusters in various sources as being in those 4 FL galaxies.  So about 1/3 FL & 2/3 second line/pgc/gc.

[Hellraiser]

I actually think the Adders should have been considered one of the larger Clans, we were given a fluff bit about how they took the Dragoon data and came out with a different cut down in the bidding.

Agreed, I'm pretty sure the Adders were decent sized pre-Absorption.
Maybe not BEAR sized, but they were no Fire Mandrills.
They could have been like the Invaders but said, nope, this is suicide to go this low against IS #'s.
Instead they backed off & made moves in the Homeworlds once the rest of the big boys left the playground.

[Hellraiser]

I thought the Steel Vipers augmented the Falcons, The Nova Cats augmented the Smoke Jaguars OZ's (and nobody augmented the Ghost Bear holdings because they & Clan Wolf were fine, overall)?

Bears had suffered some losses, but they were also in the 2nd easiest corridor, according to the clans.
Ulric only had them give up 1 world to the Sharks in order to give the Sharks a base to operate from & as a way of being nice to a "marginal-Crusader" clan compared to the troublemaker Falcons/Jaguars.

[Hellraiser]

About 60?

If we look at the field manuals the strongest clans are

Coyote 35 clusters
Ghost bear 58
Steel viper 45
Hells horses 37
Jade falcon 49 understrength
Star adder 52

As stated, those are a decade after the era he is talking about.
My guess is the only ones even close to accurate there is the Bears & Horses.
We know the rest of them all changed either just before Revival (Coyotes) or during-post Revival (The rest)

[Bren]

I thought the Steel Vipers augmented the Falcons, The Nova Cats augmented the Smoke Jaguars OZ's (and nobody augmented the Ghost Bear holdings because they & Clan Wolf were fine, overall)?

The Vipers assisted the Ghost Bears early on, before they became official participants in the invasion.

[Hellraiser]

The Vipers assisted the Ghost Bears early on, before they became official participants in the invasion.

Did they?

They were the original "Reserve" clan, but, I don't recall them having to deploy for anything early on.

[Vition2]

I get the impression that, generally speaking, the overall touman sizes for each of the clans was split into 3 tiers.

Tier 1 clans include Clans Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and include enough warriors to fill out 4 front line galaxies and 5-6 second line galaxies.  The Smoke Jaguars and Star Adders both were likely not quite tier 1 but also a bit better than tier 2, and probably both had 4 front line galaxies and 5 second line galaxies (the Jaguars likely artificially inflated their second line number, given hindsight).

Tier 2 clans include the vast majority of the clans, and likely included 3-4 front line galaxies and 4-5 second line galaxies.  All three reserve clans would be included here, as well as the Coyotes, Scorpions, Cobras, Snow Ravens, Horses, Burrocks, and before the Burrock absorption, the Blood Spirits.

Tier 3 clans would have been clans which nearly always had a major lack of resources and had problems with unity.  These primarily include the Hellions and the Mandrills.  They likely include 2-3 front line galaxy equivalents and 3-4 second line galaxies.

Those are my general opinions on the sizes, if we pulled back to around 3040, the overall sizes of most toumans may have been as much as 2 galaxies smaller, and prior to 3100, may have seen only the largest clans being more than 5 galaxies in front and second line strength.

[Bren]

They were the original "Reserve" clan, but, I don't recall them having to deploy for anything early on.

It's mentioned in Invading Clans and Era Report:3052.

While we never get a solid look at the Clan strength at the time of Revival there are theoretical counts for the cluster strength of the Invaders based on sources & names.  What strength do you think the Invaders would have been at based on early materials keeping in mind some of the characteristics- for example what we saw of the Falcon's touman had more & slightly larger clusters than the Wolves but they were mostly veteran skills while the Wolves had more elite clusters.

Another indicator to mull over is from each Clans' opening bid for Operation Revival; 7 to 12 Galaxies.

[Colt Ward]

Vition, not bad . . . and roughly can go along with it except I would put a few more down in the bottom tier- Ravens b/c their naval focus, same with Cobras.  Other problem is some Clans had 'fatter' clusters than others . . . only ones we know did not were the Spirits due to their rigid adherence to Nick's rules.  For instance, the Falcons seemed to have and still do have more points in their clusters than the Clan average.  The Vipers would appear normal except they have half the ASF included.

[Vition2]

Vition, not bad . . . and roughly can go along with it except I would put a few more down in the bottom tier- Ravens b/c their naval focus, same with Cobras.  Other problem is some Clans had 'fatter' clusters than others . . . only ones we know did not were the Spirits due to their rigid adherence to Nick's rules.  For instance, the Falcons seemed to have and still do have more points in their clusters than the Clan average.  The Vipers would appear normal except they have half the ASF included.

Re Ravens: I actually put them in tier 2 primarily due to their ground touman size, their overall efficiency is probably less than many of the other clans in tier 2 (and if I took their warship assets into account they'd actually likely be verging on Tier 1 - they did have at least double the size of other clans' combat fleet assets, and that these forces were often overlooked causes many clans to underestimate their strength) - I would have put them in the lower end of Tier 2 if I had split all of them up like that.  I estimate that it would have looked very close to what FM: Updates suggests.  They suffered fairly serious casualties from the Coyote fit, and then later lost a pair of clusters to the Falcons during the Harvest Trials.  The losses from the Coyotes would likely have been made good by the writing of FMU, but the Harvest Trial losses were likely made up by the extra forces gained from the Blood Spirit deal.  Just how I see things with regards to them, though my sight may be colored slightly due to them being one of my preferred clans.

Re Cloud Cobras: Good point, FMU points out that they were much smaller than what I had thought - I was originally thinking they were closer in size to the Ravens, though they are one of the clans where their dropship-based forces (which aren't included in touman strength lists) might make quite a bit of difference considering their ASF focus.  Upper Tier 1 is probably a good place for them.

Re Falcons:  When I was first doing the size estimates I was considering doing a run down of each of the invading clans, but realized that we only have strong numbers for the Falcons and Wolves.  Originally I was pegging they typical Falcon galaxy at roughly the size of 5.5 clusters.  They typically had 4 standard clusters, 1 Eyrie cluster and 1 Solahma cluster.  Now prior to the invasion I would have pegged the typical Eyrie and Solahma clusters to be roughly 3 trinaries in total size.  I expect them to be understrength for the exact reasons they exist - they are primarily shock and reserve troops.  The Eyrie clusters would quickly be rotating new warriors in and very slightly older warriors out as combat experience is gained or the needs of the galaxy are increased.  The Solahma clusters would be getting used as shock troops, including the massive losses shock troops typically endure and would almost never attain full strength.

[Zellbringen]

If you look at OTP Revival you can get an idea of what the Clans Touman looked like.  Its says on page 13 that "Where other Clans had bid a portion of their touman with the intent of leaving some of their strength behind to defend their interests in the Clan Homeworlds, the Adders shocked the assembly when they bid their entire touman." 

The Bears, Falcons and Jaguars bid 12, 10 and 11 galaxies respectively.  That means each had at least 1 Galaxy beyond this number to be left in the Homeworlds.  The Clans that bid the lowest in the first round did so probably due to less forces, but it still makes the smallest Clan able to commit at least 7 Galaxies to the invasion along with at least one left behind for defense.  The numbers for the Snow Ravens, Wolf, and Star Adders are more in question due to them not giving a number in the first round for different reasons. 

Personally I believe that no Clan with the exception of the Adders and Spirits would have committed less than 2 Galaxies of defensive troops to the Homeworlds to protect their holdings.  The Adders were very much of the opinion that the entire Clan would be needed where the Spirits only had York to defend in the Homeworlds.  A single Galaxy would be stretched thin to defend against other Clans going after their holdings.

Now the exact number of those that were front line or not are unknown.  But needless to say the Invasion would have looked a lot different if the Clans didn't just bring a fraction of their force to the Inner Sphere. 

-Zel

[Gaiiten]

IN FM: Crusader Clans is mentioned that the Adders did have 5 frontline and 5 secondline galaxies pre-Burrock Absorption.