Author Topic: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn  (Read 140594 times)

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1170 on: 09 February 2024, 12:51:22 »
One other possibility for the name of the Eden Rose: it could simply be named for flora native to Eden. Given the importance of the Pentagon worlds to the Clans, I’d say there’s at least an equal chance (if not greater) than a Clan naming a WarShip after a line written by a French Renaissance poet.

The Scabbard I feel is named as it is because of its original appearance in the JFSB, as all of its attached DropShips are named after bladed weapons. Makes perfect sense that the Scabbard would be named so as that’s where they were “sheathed”. Makes even more sense as I go through the JFSB and notice that this seems to be a common thread with their WarShip/DropShip combos, keeping them under a single naming theme.

Another research question. Have we ever figured out which three Warships we traded to the Snow Ravens for 2 Galaxies of equipment?

Just a quick addendum: the Spirits only received one Galaxy’s worth of ‘Mechs, not two, per FM:WC.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2024, 13:22:53 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1171 on: 09 February 2024, 13:33:15 »
FM Crusader Clans, which deals with the Blood Spirit end of the arrangement says two Galaxies of second line was traded for the three Warships. That there's discrepancy between the two accounts is typical.

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1172 on: 09 February 2024, 13:41:07 »
FM Crusader Clans, which deals with the Blood Spirit end of the arrangement says two Galaxies of second line was traded for the three Warships. That there's discrepancy between the two accounts is typical.

Oh, I see what you’re seeing: Omicron and Omega.

Ironically, FM:CC contradicts itself here because Omicron says in its own entry that it was formed much earlier than that: as one of the first second-line Galaxies formed after the Spirits acquired OmniMech technology. It also says in Omega Galaxy’s entry that it was formed in the same year as Omicron was claimed to have been, and also as part of the final shipment.

That leads me to believe that only Omega Galaxy was formed in 3010 and the FM:WC entry is actually correct, because it gives the specifics of the deal: “By the fall of 2979, we had reached an agreement; over the next three decades, we would supply the Blood Spirits with the equivalent of a Galaxy of 'Mechs in exchange for three of their WarShips.”

I think the writer intended to say Omega and not Omicron, and editorial didn’t catch it.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2024, 13:58:55 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1173 on: 09 February 2024, 14:11:44 »
Sarna refers me to page 21, but I found the relevant section on page 24 leading to 25. They didn't give a number until the last shipment, which was used in the standing up of Omnicron Galaxy. To me, the wording previous to that covered *allot* of equipment going to the Blood Spirits over several decades - much more than a single Galaxy's worth. They just stood up a new Galaxy with the last shipment. That it misaligns with other materials both in the book and ithers is as I say typical.

Confusing matters too is the Blood Spirits penchant to breaking up Clusters and Galaxies, reforming them.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2024, 14:24:46 by Terminax »

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1174 on: 09 February 2024, 14:19:06 »
Unfortunately, nothing exists to support that in the text except for a single mention of Omicron at the top of page 25 in FM:CC. Every other direct reference, in both FM:CC and FM:WC, pretty clearly indicates that only a single Galaxy’s worth of ‘Mechs were shipped over the course of those decades, and that it was specifically Omega that was formed. Omicron already existed well before that deal ever came to be. Also, FWIW, newer canon sources trump older, and FM:WC (which specifies the terms of the deal) is the newer source.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2024, 14:27:40 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1175 on: 09 February 2024, 14:41:33 »
I'll agree with you up to the point that it should probably have been Omega, not Omicron but the rest? Open to my interpretation just as much as yours. It's murky, like half the writing that gets too cute for itself. On one hand it says build them up by more than a magnitude and another that they raised one new Galaxy with the last Shipment. It's just as easy to say the Warden Book is also in error, though it is at least more likely it isn't. Both are 25 years old and have errors that we don't need to litigate over.

At least for my purposes the warships are what matters not the Snow Ravens gave in return for them. The speculation is interesting at least though again, we can't really say.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2024, 14:46:46 by Terminax »

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1176 on: 09 February 2024, 15:08:02 »
I'll agree with you up to the point that it should probably have been Omega, not Omicron but the rest? Open to my interpretation just as much as yours. It's murky, like half the writing that gets too cute for itself. On one hand it says build them up by more than a magnitude and another that they raised one new Galaxy with the last Shipment. It's just as easy to say the Warden Book is also in error, though it is at least more likely it isn't. Both are 25 years old and have errors that we don't need to litigate over.

Fair enough, but it’s telling that more than one source specifies that it was a single Galaxy, creative wording like “order of magnitude” aside. But for the sake of putting it to rest (because I had always assumed up until now that your position was correct, until researching it turned up more evidence to the contrary than not), I posed the question to TPTB for clarification.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1177 on: 09 February 2024, 15:28:18 »
I'm nearly blind at this point, so hunting up every little reference is a trial so I rely on Sarna as a short cut. You're probably more in the right than I am in this than I am, but it's hard to say IMO. We don't have an exact accounting of the Blood Spirits until after the Burrock Absorption, then next during FM Updates then not again until the Wars of Reaving. That crucial build up period, from start to finish we don't have..
« Last Edit: 09 February 2024, 15:38:29 by Terminax »

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawnroc
« Reply #1178 on: 09 February 2024, 15:39:51 »
I'm nearly blind at this point, so hunting up every little reference is a trial so I rely on Sarna as a short cut. You're probably more in the right than I am in this than I am, but it's hard to say IMO. We don't have an exact accounting of the Blood Spirits until after the Burrock Absorption, then next during FM Updates then not again until the Wars of Reaving.

The thing is, the Spirits had to get all those Galaxies they dropped on the Burrocks/Adders from somewhere, and we do kind of have a more-or-less exact accounting of them just before the Absorption: 6 front-line Galaxies (Alpha, Beta, Delta, Kappa, Pi and Omega) and 6 second-line Galaxies (Omicron, Sigma, Tau, Upsilon, Mu and Rho). So don’t think I’m not as stymied as you are here!
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1179 on: 09 February 2024, 15:49:28 »
Yeah I'm not trying to be cranky here. I know where you're coming from. I just figured they got more than just the Mechs. Just a Galaxy for three Warships seems a little light to me with over thirty years with multiple shipments plus as you say, they had to get the stuff they used from somewhere.

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1180 on: 09 February 2024, 15:55:58 »
It’s even lighter than you think, too: three WarShips for three Clusters of Mechs, because Omega Galaxy was an undersized Galaxy of three Clusters before the Burrock Absorption. It boggles the mind that this was seen as a good deal by anyone with sense.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1181 on: 09 February 2024, 16:00:51 »
Good catch that Eden Rose might be a reference to something tied to the Planet Eden. You are probably right about that.

On the Scabbard... I'm aware of the synchronization between the warships and dropships named there in the Jade Falcon Sourcebook. But we know that's a Snow Raven vessel loaned to the Jade Falcons. To preserve the canon of that document I can only presume the Ravens and/or the Jade Falcons assembled the appropriately named dropships and put them with the Scabbard. Doesn't really speak to the vessel's distant origins. It could be taken as a bit of irony that such a warship was such-named (originally) to symbolize a gesture of peace, and then got sold off to a Clan that only saw it as a bladed weapon reference under its own owners/users/operators. I know that's probably a stretch, but I find the thought amusing. Either way, I made my case (and it wasn't a strong one and I'm happy to drop it.)

About the only thing I'll really hang my hat on at this point (on the topic of what the mystery missing Spirit Warships were) is a strong belief that at least one of the Blood Spirit warships came from the cargo/dropship focused warship classes. I'm talking about the Potemkin, Volga and Carrack.

The reason I say that is because every Clan fleet has at least one of those cargo/troop/dropship-centric hulls and often multiple hulls from those classes. Except the Blood Spirits as of FM: CC. Even the weak Mandrill fleet had a Carrack and Potemkin.

It's certainly possible that they lost one of these class warships in the Burrock Absorption (we know two were lost due to a reference in FM: CC). But I doubt the Carmine Justice was one, because that was the old flagship of the entire Spirit warship fleet.

So I believe 1-3 of the hulls traded to the Snow Ravens was of the Potemkin, Volga or Carrack classes. Possibly renamed after the transfer.

If I was leading Clan Blood Spirit and was looking to trade warships for 'mechs and other combat equipment, I'd probably be willing to get rid of a Volga or a Carrack, or two such vessels. Giving up a Potemkin would be a hard pill to swallow, but I could see how I might be talked into it.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2024, 16:05:41 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1182 on: 09 February 2024, 16:19:45 »
I don’t think the Spirits giving up transport WarShips would be a hard pill at all for them to swallow. They had no real need for large troop transports given their very limited holdings and lack of drive to expand those holdings or establish new ones. And given how little they actually got for those WarShips (a Galaxy of Mechs, an understrength Galaxy at that), it was probably the best deal they could get under those less-than-ideal circumstances.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1183 on: 09 February 2024, 17:44:25 »
The warship loses from the Burrock Absorption were also vague IIRC. Just a number, no specifics.

Going from speculation to beyond I suppose requiring that part going to a fan area.

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1184 on: 09 February 2024, 20:34:11 »
EDITED: I'm gonna take a stab at the composition of the Burrock fleet. Had posted it here. But not the best thread for it. Also it needed cleaning up in terms of writing/editing.
« Last Edit: 10 February 2024, 06:36:46 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1185 on: 09 February 2024, 22:12:18 »
Bah, get that Burrock trash outta here. Did you forget where you are?!  :laugh:
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1186 on: 10 February 2024, 06:37:41 »
Bah, get that Burrock trash outta here. Did you forget where you are?!  :laugh:

I know you were at least partially kidding, but you are also right. I pulled that long-winded Burrock post. I'll put it somewhere else, also it needed some additional work.

Terminax, I sent you a PM on the Burrock fleet topic.
« Last Edit: 10 February 2024, 09:06:17 by Alan Grant »

Gaiiten

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1187 on: 10 February 2024, 13:50:03 »
I know you were at least partially kidding, but you are also right. I pulled that long-winded Burrock post. I'll put it somewhere else, also it needed some additional work.


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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1188 on: 10 February 2024, 14:03:10 »
You are welcome at the Star Adder thread  azn

Y'all never learn, do you?  :cheesy:
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1189 on: 10 February 2024, 14:24:15 »
I wish our annihilation had been a much harder pill to swallow ... enough to bring CSA to just a hair above the level of the other clans.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1190 on: 10 February 2024, 22:14:48 »
Be interested if we had any proof of why there are nine Avatar-class, when only 6 that survived.

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1191 on: 10 February 2024, 22:21:55 »
Be interested if we had any proof of why there are nine Avatar-class, when only 6 that survived.

The Fuego Lobo and Blood Fang are theorized to have been rechristened as the Jerome Winson and Victoria Ward when the Jade Wolves were renamed as just the Wolves, and the Morello appears to be an anachronism of some sort that hasn't had any sort of official ruling. That's about as good as you're gonna get.

Not that this is the place for this, given that the Blood Spirits got exactly zero of those ships.  :laugh:
« Last Edit: 10 February 2024, 22:23:50 by tassa_kay »
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truetanker

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1192 on: 10 February 2024, 22:23:35 »
Except, the clans never built new ones...

So where did these three appear from?

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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1193 on: 10 February 2024, 22:25:33 »
Except, the clans never built new ones...

So where did these three appear from?

The Jerome Winson and Victoria Ward are among the six named Liberators the Clans had (along with the Constantineau, the Spirit in the Sky, the Gauntlet and the Korat).
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truetanker

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1194 on: 10 February 2024, 23:39:20 »
Yes, but if you read the Liberator named vessels, there's 3 more...

And the Avatar was modified into them, there were only 5 SLDF and a captured one that Kerensky took with him. So... where did they come from, those 3 named...

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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1195 on: 11 February 2024, 01:01:15 »
Okay, let's try this one more time, LOL.

1) Constantineau
2) Spirit in the Sky
3) Gauntlet
4) Korat
5) Jerome Winson
6) Victoria Ward
7) Blood Fang (likely renamed as either the Jerome Winson or Victoria Ward, which are on the list above, when the Jade Wolves became the Wolves; see the Sarna entry)
8) Fuego Lobo (likely renamed as either the Jerome Winson or Victoria Ward, which are on the list above when the Jade Wolves became the Wolves; see the Sarna entry)
9) Morello (likely just a mistake, given the only source of it even existing is in an illustration of a listing in FM:U; there's a whole explanation for this on Sarna)

I don't know how many other ways I can keep saying the same thing here, LOL, but I really don't think this discussion belongs here at all, because this has absolutely nothing to do with the Blood Spirits.
« Last Edit: 11 February 2024, 01:05:14 by tassa_kay »
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
Favorite Factions: Capellan Confederation • Clan Blood Spirit • Clan Smoke Jaguar • Clan Hell's Horses • Raven Alliance • Fronc Reaches • Rim Worlds Republic • Magistracy of Canopus
Favorite Characters: Malvina Hazen • Kali Liao • Katherine Steiner-Davion • Anastasia Kerensky • Danai Liao-Centrella • Karianna Schmitt • Lady Death • Tara Campbell • Katana Tormark
Favorite Units: The Golden Ordun • Wolf Hunters • 1st Horde Cluster • 1st Rasalhague Bears • Thuggee Warrior Houses • Hikage • Raptor Keshik • Kara's Scorchers • 1st Star Sentinels

Terminax

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1196 on: 11 February 2024, 08:36:00 »
There's little mistakes everywhere. Try not to get too hung up on them. Between those, retcons and FASAnomics you'll drive yourself mad if you take things too seriously.

Speaking of which, bringing us back tangentially closer to Blood Spirit matters: how do the Clans conceal anything? I was under the impression every Clanner has a codex, which basically functions as your entire records of note from your genetic profile, sibko records, caste information etc Do the Clans not share this data, or is it limitedly distributed only upon contact between Clans? The Blood Spirits obviously aren't the only Clan that have kept secrets but they're definitely good at it.

Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1197 on: 11 February 2024, 08:56:18 »
Lots of people operate under the mistaken impression that Clanners never conceal anything. Or are constantly broadcasting the truth of all things on all channels all the time. The truth is much more nuanced.

The Burrock leadership concealed their dark caste dealings. They just confined that information to people they trusted. The Wolves hid the devastation of their eugenics program after Tamar was hit by at least one nuke during the Jihad era. After the Wars of Reaving era, the Cobras hid the revelation that their eugenics program was compromised by scientist tampering (many genetic legacies corrupted) for as long as possible and worked feverishly to get more genetic material in the short term. Khan Bjorn Jorgensson was quietly a Warden in the days that the Crusaders dominated the Ghost Bears. His Warden side came out gradually through his leadership style of the Clan, and gradually it became more open as the Clan shifted toward Warden views. Ulric Kerensky played lots of games with his real intentions. Aiden Pryde concealed his identity for a long time. Falsified his codex and lived as a freeborn warrior. Years before Revival, the Jade Falcon Khans increased the number of sibkos in training, a reality that came out once the Khan had been devastated by the Refusal War and needed to rebuild quickly. But few seemed to know about it, even within the Clan.

Khan Showers was embarrassed to admit how weak Huntress's defenses were, once Taskforce Serpent took it and he had to go to the Grand Council to ask for help. So the other Clans thought Huntress's defenses were stronger. He was also then shocked by the revelation that the Jade Falcon science station on that world was also gathering intelligence on the Jaguars.

Kindraa Smythe-Jewel didn't know the Horses and Coyotes were embarking on a campaign to destroy them until they showed up and declared a batchall. But that coalition had been planning that event for a while.

We've seen many Trials between Clans where a unit was surprised at the composition/makeup of the opposing force in some way. Or where reinforcements showed up that weren't expected.

That's by no means a complete list. It just illustrates the point.

Yes there are certain levels and types of data that are meant to be open and shared. But often that only happens once you've initiated a Batchall. Even then we've seen accusations made that someone was misled. Other times a Clan only truly gains all the information once they've won a Trial and acquired the isorla, including personnel and equipment.

The book Warriors of Kerensky tells us that the Bloodname House leaders of shared bloodnames often make up for in information brokering (by gathering reports from their various Bloodname House members) what they lack in voting power in one Clan. The Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes prided themselves on being the best at information gathering via their merchants. The Star Adders had an actual intelligence branch.

Such things would not be necessary if everything was truly shared all the time. That just isn't the case. Tradition dictates certain things are shared, but only when certain circumstances are triggered. The best known, best understood circumstance of this is when someone issues a Batchall and wants to know with what do you defend a target. You are supposed to then show your cards. But even then, it doesn't have to be everything you have, just with what you intend to defend the target.

Other times, the isorla of a Trial, such as the bondsmen/bondswomen taken, present their new Clans with their codexes and also to some extent share what they know about their old Clan.

We see things concealed all the time. We see people lie. In general the Clans TEND to be more honest and direct than Spheroids. But it's shades of different. It isn't a society that completely broadcasts every new development, every codex, every troop deployment, all the time. It's just a society that has a different set of criteria and circumstances for when/how tradition dictates you share information.

Zeroing in on what you said about codexes. I doubt they are shared all the time and continuously. Otherwise, many of the examples I laid out above would be simply impossible. You could use that codex data to constantly plot and update your understanding of the exact composition and location of every Clan warrior everywhere. Accordingly, you would be able to decipher where every Clan touman unit is. We know they don't have that information. Ergo, codex data isn't shared all the time. Just at certain moments and under certain specific circumstances as dictated by Clan law and traditions.
« Last Edit: 11 February 2024, 09:19:56 by Alan Grant »

alex blood spirit

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1198 on: 20 February 2024, 10:41:49 »
have a question about new clan mech , vehicle designs coming to the clan from the inner sphere threw the Wolfs Dragoon prior to there defection in the early 3030 .? any ideas

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1199 on: 20 February 2024, 14:34:49 »
Admittedly, we don't know the particulars that were shared beyond the basics that the Great Houses were all still intact despite centuries of warfare, outlines of their military forces and such. Their mission changed after the 2nd Supply run do presumably their most in-depth data was on the first four contracts.

How much info passed from the Wolf Khan(s) to the Clans in general, we can't really say but we can say most of the Clans didn't pay much attention to them and those that did, didn't believe allot of it. The Blood Spirits I expect had more pressing issues at home to really make use of the data even if they believed it. Like what are you looking for? The Blood Spirits struggled as it was. Nothing from the Inner Sphere eould really aid them.

 

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