Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 163994 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Mech design decisions that make no sense
« on: 07 December 2018, 01:27:37 »
There have been a lot of mechs over the years that have been less-than-optimized.

But sometimes, there's a mech that's built in a way that just leaves you saying "what were they smoking?"  I'm interested in hearing what people think are some of the worst offenders.

A big one for me is the Cerberus.  Eleven tons of armor doesn't come close to being sufficient, but that's compounded by wasting tonnage on a pair of rear-facing machine guns and two double heatsinks (giving it 24 heat dissipation on a mech that can only generate 19 on a standing alpha strike).
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Icerose20

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #1 on: 07 December 2018, 04:19:00 »
Because the Cerberus was designed to a Direct Fire support platform, the 11 tons of FF armor is adequate.  I am not too worried about the 12 DHS, I'd rather not have to deal with heat and this design solves that.  the rear dual MGs were usually replaced.  Common one i did was c3 slave and a small laser.  If you use the mech to take hits, you will be in trouble.  Put it with an Atlas or Awesome, then it will work well.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #2 on: 07 December 2018, 04:25:13 »
I'm almost certain what they were thinking with the Cerberus was "What do you mean it looks too much like a Gunslinger? Fine, I'll change it."

Seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if the original authors of the two designs came up with basically the same thing and then got into an argument over who had to make theirs worse.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #3 on: 07 December 2018, 05:29:07 »
It's hard to beat the Peacekeeper. Way more weapons than its heat sinks can handle, and a SRM2 whose only purpose appears to be blowing up when you get into heavy fighting (since there's no practical use for it as a weapon.).

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #4 on: 07 December 2018, 11:52:35 »
The SRM2 is not so much the problem IMO as is the three big heat makers and a lack of weapons to fine tune them so you can use the TSM properly.  Going 5/8 with that weapons load on a mech that damage potential in a kick could be fun but its hard to manage that the 2.5t from the SRM2 & CASE would make easier (ERML, 2 ERSL, SL).
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #5 on: 07 December 2018, 11:59:58 »
Because the Cerberus was designed to a Direct Fire support platform, the 11 tons of FF armor is adequate.  I am not too worried about the 12 DHS, I'd rather not have to deal with heat and this design solves that.  the rear dual MGs were usually replaced.  Common one i did was c3 slave and a small laser.  If you use the mech to take hits, you will be in trouble.  Put it with an Atlas or Awesome, then it will work well.

The problem is that it came out as the same time as the Inner Sphere was seeing a bunch of new heavy cavalry mechs also being deployed.  So just being able to stand off and snipe was not something it could guarantee.  And that's without even considering the Clans, which it was allegedly built to fight.  And the extra heatsinks are especially pointless if it's supposed to be used for fire support: if all it's going to be firing are the Gauss Rifles it can afford to take a dip in Inferno gel without gaining heat before the extra heatsinks are factored in.  That right there is the definition of oversinked.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #6 on: 07 December 2018, 13:19:35 »
I'd nominate most of new-toy-syndrome 'Mechs.
Like, the Artemis IV upgrade for the Whitworth.
Or the Goliath upgrade with two tons of MG ammo. "Prototype rushed to production" works only for so far.
There are good ones around to be sure, but so many of them don't make sense neither out of universe, nor in-universe by any reasonable metric. This leaves irrational reasons, so figuring them out is basically impossible.

The Hellbringer comes to mind as well, though i suppose it can be justified by the fact that without endo-steel or ferro-fibrous, it is relatively easy to repair, and its nature allows for quick duels ("time-economical"), well suited for the Clans. But given that the Clans are perfectly capable of producing designs that are smart and effective, it is really baffling. Then again, i seem to recall that the design competed against even worse designs before it got selected for production...

The Hercules isn't too bad design overall, with its speed and primary armament, but its secondary weapons array is somewhat baffling. Small pulses in the rear? Yes, they're accurate but for anti-infantry use it would've made sense to locate them in the left arm, that way twisting torso would allow shooting more or less behind the 'Mech to keep infantry out of your back. The singular Streak launcher is also a bit dubious, something the field refit partially corrects by adding another Streak by removing the AMS and its ammo.

massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #7 on: 07 December 2018, 15:00:37 »
I'd nominate most of new-toy-syndrome 'Mechs.
Like, the Artemis IV upgrade for the Whitworth.
Or the Goliath upgrade with two tons of MG ammo. "Prototype rushed to production" works only for so far.
There are good ones around to be sure, but so many of them don't make sense neither out of universe, nor in-universe by any reasonable metric. This leaves irrational reasons, so figuring them out is basically impossible.

The Hellbringer comes to mind as well, though i suppose it can be justified by the fact that without endo-steel or ferro-fibrous, it is relatively easy to repair, and its nature allows for quick duels ("time-economical"), well suited for the Clans. But given that the Clans are perfectly capable of producing designs that are smart and effective, it is really baffling. Then again, i seem to recall that the design competed against even worse designs before it got selected for production...

The Hercules isn't too bad design overall, with its speed and primary armament, but its secondary weapons array is somewhat baffling. Small pulses in the rear? Yes, they're accurate but for anti-infantry use it would've made sense to locate them in the left arm, that way twisting torso would allow shooting more or less behind the 'Mech to keep infantry out of your back. The singular Streak launcher is also a bit dubious, something the field refit partially corrects by adding another Streak by removing the AMS and its ammo.

I'd argue there are some in-universe factors that we don't really see on the tabletop.

While it's easy for us to max out the armor on a custom design, I don't think it's supposed to be that simple for the engineers in the game world.  While a 65 ton mech can carry a max of 13 tons of armor, I like to think that means squeezing every last possible bit of protection onto the frame.  As in, you're probably making compromises in the design elsewhere.

If you think of a mech not just as a list of numbers, and instead as a complicated combat vehicle with thousands of moving parts, it makes more sense.  I used to write out my mech designs on a piece of paper, and it looked something like this:

Quote
65T
-13.5T    260 engine
51.5T
-6.5T    internal structure
45T
-6T     gyro/cockpit
39T
-12T     armor (192)
27T

And so on down the page.  Like that, optimization is easy.  But if you think about building it as in drawing up the technical diagrams, and figuring out where ammo feeds are going to be, etc, it suddenly gets a lot more complicated.  While a particular design might be perfectly legal on the tabletop, that doesn't mean it's going to be easy to make it work in the universe.  The Bushwhacker had notorious problems with engine and weapon placement, even though it was a standard 3025 design.  I'd argue that certain under-armored mechs may have been designed with the intention of carrying more protection, but once the chassis was finished they found out that the placement of certain components prevented them from up-armoring the thing like they wanted.  This sort of thing happens with real life military equipment, and you basically find out when it's too late to fix it.

And maybe the production model of the Hellbringer is just a nice budget heavy Omnimech.  It's cheap to manufacture, fast enough to keep up with better designs, and carries a big punch.  It uses a lot of the same parts as the Summoner, so you can keep your costs down even though it's relatively easy to damage.  The logistical benefits of the mech outweigh the weaknesses in the design, so it's not really worth changing.

With the Hercules, there are a few mechs (like the Falcon) that put anti-infantry weapons in the rear.  So there's some history there.  Perhaps a favored tactic of anti-mech infantry is to stay hidden and then attack from behind?  While the game rules allow you to torso-twist, it's possible that it's still not quite as effective as dedicated rear-mounted weaponry.
« Last Edit: 07 December 2018, 15:03:07 by massey »

massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #8 on: 07 December 2018, 15:22:22 »
There have been a lot of mechs over the years that have been less-than-optimized.

But sometimes, there's a mech that's built in a way that just leaves you saying "what were they smoking?"  I'm interested in hearing what people think are some of the worst offenders.

A big one for me is the Cerberus.  Eleven tons of armor doesn't come close to being sufficient, but that's compounded by wasting tonnage on a pair of rear-facing machine guns and two double heatsinks (giving it 24 heat dissipation on a mech that can only generate 19 on a standing alpha strike).

The Cerberus seems like a design that probably started with a different weapon loadout.  It probably started out as a mech carrying PPCs, where the designers thought they'd need the extra heat sinks.  So they place orders for 380 XL engines with 12 internal double heat sinks, and then partway through it's like "oh hey, we can use Gauss Rifles instead".  The design gets changed, but you've already got engines being produced.  Just because a piece of technology was around before the design, that doesn't mean it was going to be available to every manufacturer.  Maybe they hoped for Gauss Rifles but designed for PPCs to be on the safe side.

As far as the machine guns go, versatility is important.  Not everything is high intensity combat.  Sometimes your mech is on its own and it's important to be able to murder a couple of infantry platoons.  It may be that was a requirement of the RFP for the design.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #9 on: 07 December 2018, 15:40:06 »
Or for the Cerb it could have simply been the -5M with a ERPPC instead of a 2nd Gauss Rifle and more armor & DHS was the original design but someone called during the procurement/set up for a double Gauss version to be the primary version produced.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #10 on: 07 December 2018, 16:26:24 »
No-Dachi 2KO.

Yes, it is a pulse beast. Yes it is a scary mech... but WHY OH WHY did they mount 2 ER Medium lasers pointing rear!  Heck, they have the longest range on the mech, tied with the large pulse laser. But to the rear is never used. If someone is behind me I'll rotate and use the LPL, MPL, SPL in the arm, or hit them with my sword. Not two ER medium lasers.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #11 on: 07 December 2018, 16:45:45 »
The Cerberus seems like a design that probably started with a different weapon loadout.  It probably started out as a mech carrying PPCs, where the designers thought they'd need the extra heat sinks.  So they place orders for 380 XL engines with 12 internal double heat sinks, and then partway through it's like "oh hey, we can use Gauss Rifles instead".  The design gets changed, but you've already got engines being produced.  Just because a piece of technology was around before the design, that doesn't mean it was going to be available to every manufacturer.  Maybe they hoped for Gauss Rifles but designed for PPCs to be on the safe side.

That only makes sense if the MR-V2 was a field refit.  Or if the lead designer was the same guy who did the upgrade for the Draconis Combine's ASFs.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #12 on: 07 December 2018, 17:26:08 »
That only makes sense if the MR-V2 was a field refit.  Or if the lead designer was the same guy who did the upgrade for the Draconis Combine's ASFs.

Not a field refit, a last minute change.  Or last minute enough that they can’t undo certain design decisions they’d already made.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #13 on: 07 December 2018, 17:48:14 »
Not a field refit, a last minute change.  Or last minute enough that they can’t undo certain design decisions they’d already made.

Yes . . . ordering & supply pipe lines
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #14 on: 07 December 2018, 18:12:29 »
Not a field refit, a last minute change.  Or last minute enough that they can’t undo certain design decisions they’d already made.

That would basically require a change that was made in-transit, though.  If you've got the engines at the factory, you can remove the heatsinks at the same time you're installing the gauss rifles.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #15 on: 08 December 2018, 00:05:34 »
Run the Cerberus under Solaris VII dueling rules.

Suddenly those extra heat sinks and machine guns make a LOT more sense (admittedly I'd rather have the MGs facing forward on a 4/6 machine).

The armor sucks, but it's hardly the only long-range gunboat that follows the battlecruiser philosophy.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #16 on: 08 December 2018, 02:24:19 »
I think it's about time to stop appealing to an obscure box set that a large percentage of modern players have never even seen, much less used.  Unless the Cerberus was actually designed for the Solaris rules (which it wasn't, unlike, say, the Juggernaut), its performance under those rules is irrelevant.

Hmm, maybe we need a corollary to Apollo's Law.  The S7 Law: If you have to invoke the Solaris Box Set rules as proof that a mech isn't badly designed, you're admitting it's badly designed.

We can work on it.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #17 on: 08 December 2018, 02:34:59 »
I fail to understand the design ideas for the Axman AXM-2N, and especially not the Berserker BRZ-B3.

While the basic idea is simple to grasp-turning the two platforms into decent missile support units, especially in the case of the latter-the execution is terribly flawed by the design decisions of the machines themselves. I'd assume the design for both to either A; Attack with the LRMs while closing to hatchet range, or B; Rush forward and use the hatchet when an enemy gets into LRM minimum range. But for both models, that tonnage could be used for something far more valuable.

If anything, I'd say the abuse of the BRZ-B3 is the more egregious of the two. While putting twin LRM-15s on the Axman makes less sense, it at least has considerable backup weaponry considering the weight class, even if SRMs or extra laser packages would certainly make more sense over long-range missiles. But the Berserker only gets range out of the deal, losing out on damage and minimum ranges and the lack theorof when, perhaps worst of all, it would have the tonnage to at least mount a single AC/20 or Gauss Rifle. Or a big laser battery.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #18 on: 08 December 2018, 03:13:49 »
Hmm, maybe we need a corollary to Apollo's Law.  The S7 Law: If you have to invoke the Solaris Box Set rules as proof that a mech isn't badly designed, you're admitting it's badly designed.

The question is not "is the design good or is it bad", the question is "does it make sense". The mere existence of the Solaris rules, however antiquated (and frankly broken) they might be, is sufficient proof that there are conditions in-universe where performance can be very different from what you get under standard rules. And under those conditions, machine guns on BattleMechs and "too many" heat sinks do indeed make a lot of sense.

All game rules are by their nature abstractions. TW rules have a particular set of abstractions that crap all over certain equipment (AC/2s and machine guns are clearly not terrible in-universe, otherwise they would be extinct; the fault must be in the rules) because the rules are designed for a particular kind of scenario and don't handle edge cases very well. TW doesn't support extra heat sink capacity allowing you to fire your medium lasers 25% more often, but that doesn't mean it's impossible in-universe, just that the rules weren't designed for that kind of edge case.

From an intradiagetic (aka Watsonian) perspective no unit is "designed" for a particular rules set. They're designed according to particular in-universe criteria which we as board game players are neither privy to nor restricted by. It's farcical to call any canon design good or bad without framing it in the context in which it belongs. There is more to judge a design by than performance under tabletop rules; if there weren't every faction would be exclusively deploying 5/8/7 pulse boats with max armor and piles of heat sinks. There is a huge difference between bad in the fiction and bad on the table.

Speaking extradiagetically, virtually all canon units are hobbled in some way to make them more interesting to play. Sometimes even just by assigning them to a faction that
doesn't have anything else good to team them up with.

In any case nothing with dual Gauss rifles and the ability to shoot them can be considered "bad", it's mediocre at worst!
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #19 on: 08 December 2018, 03:22:03 »
I fail to understand the design ideas for the Axman AXM-2N, and especially not the Berserker BRZ-B3.

While the basic idea is simple to grasp-turning the two platforms into decent missile support units, especially in the case of the latter-the execution is terribly flawed by the design decisions of the machines themselves. I'd assume the design for both to either A; Attack with the LRMs while closing to hatchet range, or B; Rush forward and use the hatchet when an enemy gets into LRM minimum range. But for both models, that tonnage could be used for something far more valuable.

Consider two Axmen working together. The basic model has no ranged capability at all. An AXM-1N and AXM-2N working as a pair have an AC/20, 30 LRM tubes, two large pulse lasers, and two bigass hatchets. The 2N can support the 1N with ranged bombardment as they close and still has a fearsome surprise for anyone who decides to play "rush the missile boat". Once the battle is joined at close range the 2N is somewhat less effective but the enemy should be well softened-up from the early long-range salvos, and the 1N's autocannon will find them easy prey.

...unless someone is going to propose a "law" that says teamwork is just covering for weakness?
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #20 on: 08 December 2018, 06:55:02 »
The shadow hawk. Cool imagery, really bad rules. Given that size wise he could have been said to have an AC10 instead of an AC5 (and make a lot more sense in that case), well, I think it is simply badly designed and never reviewed.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #21 on: 08 December 2018, 08:46:26 »
The shadow hawk. Cool imagery, really bad rules. Given that size wise he could have been said to have an AC10 instead of an AC5 (and make a lot more sense in that case), well, I think it is simply badly designed and never reviewed.

I do believe it was designed back when there was only one AC type, which would morph into the AC/5...

Ruger
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #22 on: 08 December 2018, 10:58:01 »
I do believe it was designed back when there was only one AC type, which would morph into the AC/5...

Ruger

It was, just like the Wolverine, Rifleman, and Marauder.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #23 on: 08 December 2018, 11:02:02 »
So it makes no sense due to a lame revision. I keep up my "mech that makes no sense" candidate

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #24 on: 08 December 2018, 11:14:29 »
AC/10s weighing 8 tons would be so much more attractive to folks i'm sure.

It was, just like the Wolverine, Rifleman, and Marauder.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #25 on: 08 December 2018, 12:31:12 »
The royal shadow hawk is a nod to the AC/5 complaint

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #26 on: 08 December 2018, 15:51:09 »
This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I don't get the Vulpes. It just runs so darn hot, 14 base heat from running  an XXL with the ECM on and then main lines ER lasers with just 14 DHS. The fluff around it makes it seem like some sort of next-tier mech, but it's just not that good to me.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #27 on: 08 December 2018, 16:38:14 »
I think it's about time to stop appealing to an obscure box set that a large percentage of modern players have never even seen, much less used.  Unless the Cerberus was actually designed for the Solaris rules (which it wasn't, unlike, say, the Juggernaut), its performance under those rules is irrelevant.

Hmm, maybe we need a corollary to Apollo's Law.  The S7 Law: If you have to invoke the Solaris Box Set rules as proof that a mech isn't badly designed, you're admitting it's badly designed.

We can work on it.

But it explains a lot of the weirdness around TRO3050 and 3055.

For starters you have the chronic under armouring of 3025.

Then there is this obsession with using XL engines to boost speed. To me that points to a close range dueling environment. Under 3025 weapons and ranges were so weak physical combat was the expectation, and it is the name of the game in Solaris.

I suspect that there was a group of designers quite enamored with Solaris as the way of the future. Not an unreasonable assumption. It is a hyped up version of 3025 play. Unfortunately the rules didn't become general play and Clantech and growth of L2 encouraged armour and range based play.

So by 3058 you see everyone, Clan and IS, slowing down and adding guns and armour.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #28 on: 08 December 2018, 19:06:33 »
The shadow hawk. Cool imagery, really bad rules. Given that size wise he could have been said to have an AC10 instead of an AC5 (and make a lot more sense in that case), well, I think it is simply badly designed and never reviewed.

In a 3025 context the AC/5 isn't that bad. It has the same range as a PPC and only 5 points less damage at 1/10 the heat. A PPC by itself is going to eat all of your base 10 heat sinks and you'll need two more to be able to move without building heat. The AC/5 gets you most of the PPC's performance (mind you, the deadliest weapon in 3025 play is the one that does any damage to a 2 or 12 on the location table!) and doesn't penalize you for carrying secondary weapons.

It's double heat sinks what killed the AC/5.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #29 on: 08 December 2018, 23:26:10 »
Narc on an Archer, or any other LRM boat for that matter. By the time you can hit with IS-Narc, you can't hit with LRMs, and odds of being able to back off afterwards aren't great against most foes.

It makes sense on the stalker, as that's a brawler with LRM as something to do as it gets close. Kintaro has more SRM than LRM. Sorta works on an Orion, that's a general purpose mech that works as a brawler/spotter. The -5S Archer is a mess, the SRM are streaks that can't even use the Narc, and two tons of ammo for four tubes is four times what it needs in it's primary role.
« Last Edit: 08 December 2018, 23:28:57 by Greatclub »