Mech design decisions that make no sense

[Sartris]

ammo is 10 per ton (pg 7)

[Atarlost]

There is no way to make energy weapons or LRMs fire Flak ammo however.
Sometimes ACs have a use.

Yes, sometimes ACs have a use.  No one argues that AC-20s are useless.  Some people argue against the AC-2 or AC-10, but I am not one of them. 

The thing about firing flak from an AC-5 is that the AC-2 is now in the running because it's lighter and can still force a PSR.  And if you're worrying about opponents who are going to make most of their PSRs you run smack into the AC-10.  The AC-5 still finds itself in a sad middle ground. 

The AC-10 isn't as likely to force a PSR as twin AC-5s, but if those twin AC-5s are on a Jaegermech you run into the diminishing returns of massed guns for forcing PSRs because you're already putting two flak shots in the air from the AC-2s and the more accurate you are the more the returns on more guns for PSRs diminish.  The AA tracking quirk kind of antisynergizes with the armaments of a lot of things that have it. 

[Daryk]

That's why the Jagermech has an LRM-15 variant that retains the AC/2s...

[Liam's Ghost]

You know, looking at the 3M Goliath, it actually makes a little more sense if it was also a testbed for rapid fire machine guns.

The superfluous heat sinks and all that extra machine gun ammo work really well for using the machine guns in rapid fire mode (as described in tactical operations and battlemech manual). In such a mode each machine gun is expending around 9 to 12 shots each time it's fired, and is throwing in an extra variable heat spike that the Goliath would actually be able to ride out with limited loss of utility.

It's still not a "great" idea. There's so many better things you could be doing with that mass, but it feels like something you'd see in the "new toy" obsessed inner sphere.

Of course this does nothing to help the original writer, since that rule didn't exist when they made it, but it retroactively helps the poor mech make a little more sense.  ;D

[Caedis Animus]

That's why the Jagermech has an LRM-15 variant that retains the AC/2s...

The Jagermech A's supposed rarity always irked me. It's flat-out better than the JM6-S in pretty much every way other than Davion AC spam, and it's not like LRM-15s were hard to make and salvage.

I guess that makes it retroactively a design decision that doesn't make sense? One in the sense of 'Why didn't they make more of these' than 'Why did they do this'?

[R.Tempest]

You know, looking at the 3M Goliath, it actually makes a little more sense if it was also a testbed for rapid fire machine guns.

The superfluous heat sinks and all that extra machine gun ammo work really well for using the machine guns in rapid fire mode (as described in tactical operations and battlemech manual). In such a mode each machine gun is expending around 9 to 12 shots each time it's fired, and is throwing in an extra variable heat spike that the Goliath would actually be able to ride out with limited loss of utility.

It's still not a "great" idea. There's so many better things you could be doing with that mass, but it feels like something you'd see in the "new toy" obsessed inner sphere.

Of course this does nothing to help the original writer, since that rule didn't exist when they made it, but it retroactively helps the poor mech make a little more sense.  ;D

It makes one wonder if TPTB at the time were considering some sort of alternate mg ammo(Long range, heavier damage, incendiary etc.) but they decided against it.
On the other hand it may simply be a designer wanting to guarantee Empire strikes Back type explosions :).

[The_Caveman]

The Jagermech A's supposed rarity always irked me. It's flat-out better than the JM6-S in pretty much every way other than Davion AC spam, and it's not like LRM-15s were hard to make and salvage.

I guess that makes it retroactively a design decision that doesn't make sense? One in the sense of 'Why didn't they make more of these' than 'Why did they do this'?

Hate to say it, but again, Solaris VII rules to the rescue. LRMs take 3 Solaris turns to reload, AC/5s just 1. With the JagerMech primarily being an anti-aircraft 'Mech, that is not only a lot of flak ammo to put down range, but a lot of lawn dart rolls to throw at a fighter. LRMs versus autocannons may have looked better "on paper" (which is the perspective we see in standard rules play) but in practice (RPG/S7 play) things worked out differently.

Obviously the S7 ruleset hadn't been published when TRO3025 debuted, but autocannons have always been fluffed as "rapid fire" weapons so the dueling rules coming out a few years later just makes clear the designers' intent was always that we aren't seeing ACs at their maximum possible rate of fire in standard tabletop play.

[Caedis Animus]

Hate to say it, but again, Solaris VII rules to the rescue. LRMs take 3 Solaris turns to reload, AC/5s just 1. With the JagerMech primarily being an anti-aircraft 'Mech, that is not only a lot of flak ammo to put down range, but a lot of lawn dart rolls to throw at a fighter. LRMs versus autocannons may have looked better "on paper" (which is the perspective we see in standard rules play) but in practice (RPG/S7 play) things worked out differently.

Good thing I really don't care in the slightest about S7 rules, because I don't use them, and good thing you conveniently ignored everything else that makes the JM6-A better than the JM6-S. Mostly improved armor, IDF capability, competition with the Catapult in terms of a strict fire support role, and overall long range.

Edit; I'm well aware that choosing the JM6-A over the JM6-S is basically trading six shots at 5 damage under three turns, for 15-30 damage in one turn out of three; But the other benefits should more than make up the difference. And it still retains the Autocannon 2s, still allowing you to plink at aircraft with flak. 

[The_Caveman]

Good thing I really don't care in the slightest about S7 rules, and good thing you conveniently ignored everything else that makes the JM6-A better than the JM6-S/

What, the slightly better armor (128 vs 96 on a 65-tonner is just a thicker grade of cardboard) and less than half the ammo endurance, reduced heat efficiency, unreliable damage, and giant minimum range? That stuff that makes it overwhelmingly superior?

[Caedis Animus]

What, the slightly better armor (128 vs 96 on a 65-tonner is just a thicker grade of cardboard) and less than half the ammo endurance, reduced heat efficiency, unreliable damage, and giant minimum range? That stuff that makes it overwhelmingly superior?

Yes. Under standard tabletop rules, that still makes it better.

Also, don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was overwhelmingly superior. Just better.

[The_Caveman]

I agree that the JM6-A is better than the JM6-S. But not so much better that it would drive the other extinct. Given that around 3/4 of every ton of LRMs finds its way into the dirt compared with about half of every ton of AC rounds, it's very nearly a wash.

The biggest benefit is IDF capability, which it coincidentally now needs because it lacks the heat sinks to fire on the move. The 6-S can at least keep pace with the battle without pausing its attacks even if it needs to stay in the back, in the woods with its minimal armor.

Had they equipped it with LRM-20s and removed the AC/2s, making room for adequate ammo, heat sinks, and armor, we'd be arguing about why it didn't displace the Catapult instead.

[Caedis Animus]

I agree that the JM6-A is better than the JM6-S. But not so much better that it would drive the other extinct. Given that around 3/4 of every ton of LRMs finds its way into the dirt compared with about half of every ton of AC rounds, it's very nearly a wash.

Oh, you thought that was what I meant? Sorry.

I meant that it was a travesty that only two production runs were ever made, and that the idea was never looked into more. Not that it should drive the S to extinction.

[The_Caveman]

Oh, you thought that was what I meant? Sorry.

I meant that it was a travesty that only two production runs were ever made, and that the idea was never looked into more. Not that it should drive the S to extinction.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense. There are a lot of good ideas in the lore that get briefly touched on and are permitted to slowly evaporate with no good explanation for the abandonment.

One other reason keeping the ACs might be favorable over a missile conversion: AC ammo is tech rating B while LRM ammo is tech rating C, even though the weapons themselves are both tech C. So in a Succession Wars context, there are going to be a lot more planets capable of producing AC rounds than LRM rounds, and that greatly simplifies the logistics pipeline. LRMs are going to have to be shipped from the relatively intact core worlds of your interstellar empire, while the bombed-out, dirt-farming hellhole that is Mudball VI can churn out its own cannon shells to supply the local militia.

Disregard. The ammo is listed that way in Megamek Lab but I can't find support for it in the Tech Manual errata.

[Greatclub]

Longbow -14C

Looks good until you look at the heat load and the sinks. It can only use 2/3 of the MML unless it wants to gain heat, and can quite literally blow itself up firing everything in what should be the short range bracket.

Then they made a variant. It reduces the heat load a bit, but not enough. How something that should have been a dead end survived to produce an offspring...

The fact that the -14C follows the excellent -12C and -13C just make it more repulsive. Did somebody make their sister's kid the head of the redesign team?

[GreekFire]

The fact that the -14C follows the excellent -12C and -13C just make it more repulsive. Did somebody make their sister's kid the head of the redesign team?

I dunno, I don't think it's as bad as you're saying. Compare it with the -13C.

The missile output, to remain heat neutral, drops from 42 missiles to 36 missiles...which isn't a huge difference. Sure, you lose the ArtIV, but that's something a bit inconsequential in my eyes considering the era it exists in, the amount of ECM around, and how often I use them indirectly or with alternate munitions. You also lose some speed, but gain some armor instead.

On the upside, if the -14C loses an arm or gets a TAC on a launcher, it can keep the same rate of fire up without any problems - so I'd argue that the -14C has better battlefield endurance. It also works better with alternate ammo types, which is a definite plus for an MML boat. And if someone stumbles into your short range and you have the numbers, you can use all of the MMLs to up the pain levels - once again, giving you more flexibility.

So yeah, it's not perfect, but I can definitely understand the logic behind it.

[The_Caveman]

Best rationale I can think of for the LGB-14C is it can put at least two launchers into every firing arc without having to move. Light 'Mech sneaks up behind it? Flip arms, 36 SRMs to the face. Enemy pincer maneuver? You can fire two MML-9s each at targets on opposite sides.

It's not the way I would design it, but I can see what they might be thinking.

Honestly the biggest sin it commits is an XL engine plus a body packed full of ammo. One lucky TAC and you're walking back to the DropShip.

(The design works a LOT better with MML-7s and a light engine. Swap the ERMLs for a SNPPC and one SPL to munch hostile PBI, add half a ton of armor to the torso, reduce the ammo load to 8 tons (moving the leg ammo to the arms) and fit a couple A-pods to the legs as party favors. Two more double heat sinks can then fit into the torso. Could fit TAG instead of the A-pods to self-designate for SGLRM. Problem is, you need an engine swap, so that's a depot-level refit at minimum.)

[Atarlost]

Honestly the biggest sin it commits is an XL engine plus a body packed full of ammo. One lucky TAC and you're walking back to the DropShip.

Inappropriate use of XL engines is another common nonsense design decision.  I can see why the Clans use them so much with their dueling culture and only having two crits in each side torso.  The IS, though, really shouldn't be using them on trooper or assault mechs.  Especially not on anything that is both slow and stores explodey bits in the side torso.  It's nice that CASE lets the pilot safely eject, but if they'd not put an overpriced extralight engine next to a bomb CASE would have let the pilot walk off the field. 

I can buy some dumb decisions trying to copy the Clans in the early invasion, but the Star League lostech designs don't have that excuse. 

Back to ragging on AC-5s, the classic MAD-3R Marauder in particular egregiously makes no sense.  It has to fire its PPCs in a 2-1 pattern for 15 average damage sent downrange.  Add the AC-5 for 20.  If it had enough heatsinks the PPCs alone could put out 20 damage a turn and it wouldn't peak at +5 heat for a movement penalty just from firing the longer range guns.  The needed heatsinks would weigh less than the AC-5 and don't require explosive ammunition. 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Inappropriate use of XL engines is another common nonsense design decision.  I can see why the Clans use them so much with their dueling culture and only having two crits in each side torso.  The IS, though, really shouldn't be using them on trooper or assault mechs.  Especially not on anything that is both slow and stores explodey bits in the side torso.  It's nice that CASE lets the pilot safely eject, but if they'd not put an overpriced extralight engine next to a bomb CASE would have let the pilot walk off the field. 

I can buy some dumb decisions trying to copy the Clans in the early invasion, but the Star League lostech designs don't have that excuse.

That depends on the assault mech.  The Thunderhawk, for example, gains enough in firepower that the XL engine is worth it.

What doesn't make sense are the 3050 mechs that got "upgraded" to XL engines while leaving single heatsinks- the Imp and Atlas being prime offenders.  Especially since both of them were given new weapon loadouts that dramatically increased their heat production.

And that ties in with the Draconis Combine's insanely oversinked ASFs.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Star League era XLFE designs make sense in a cruelly harsh, planned obsolescence sort of way...

Not only do manufacturers get to charge more for XL mechs, they die more easily so you get to sell more of them!  The SLDF was a rich enough customer for those economic tactics...

[Sartris]

and yet more are used than ever - upwards of 60% of mech designs and variants produced after 3080 have XL engines while only about 15% use LFEs

[Colt Ward]

Back to ragging on AC-5s, the classic MAD-3R Marauder in particular egregiously makes no sense.  It has to fire its PPCs in a 2-1 pattern for 15 average damage sent downrange.  Add the AC-5 for 20.  If it had enough heatsinks the PPCs alone could put out 20 damage a turn and it wouldn't peak at +5 heat for a movement penalty just from firing the longer range guns.  The needed heatsinks would weigh less than the AC-5 and don't require explosive ammunition.

Hence the Marauder 3D- no explosions, more heat sinks, and a 'cooler' weapon.

What XLs do you say that about?  I mean one I complain about having a XL is the Caeser 3R . . . too thin-skinned for the XL to face the Clans IMO, a cERLL/cERPPC/GR is going to come close to punching through that side torso armor.  Worse is the side torso having a Gauss Rifle & XL- or good if you are the Clanner.  The speed being 4/6 just invites any cavalry design to punch it out and it would be ground under the advance of Clan heavies and assault of similar speed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Forget the Clans, the Caesar is too thin-skinned to face other IS heavy mechs. Every time I've faced one, it's died due to side torso destruction.

[Colt Ward]

Lol, I was trying to be nice since it was "supposed" to face the Clans.

[Sartris]

Lol, I was trying to be nice since it was "supposed" to face the Clans.

while we're on ill-suited for its intended mission, how about the Fireball? A toad hunter that puts out a max of six damage per turn.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

while we're on ill-suited for its intended mission, how about the Fireball? A toad hunter that puts out a max of six damage per turn.

It makes more sense when you imagine how far can a Toad be kicked with a Fireball's running start...

[Sartris]

It makes more sense when you imagine how far can a Toad be kicked with a Fireball's running start...

Why is this not a tacops rule oh my god

[glitterboy2098]

Lol, I was trying to be nice since it was "supposed" to face the Clans.

except it was under design, per the fluff, in the 3040's as part of the development of Davion model Cataphracts. so it was meant to fight the CapCon and Combine, it just happened to come out right in time to fight the clans.
armor wise the Cataphract and the Caesar are pretty similar, so any flaws there were largely inherited from its ancestor. and the Cataphract was fairly decent for the succession wars battlefields. it was just the doctrinal changes caused by the needs of the clan front that made its armor too fragile.

Back to ragging on AC-5s, the classic MAD-3R Marauder in particular egregiously makes no sense.  It has to fire its PPCs in a 2-1 pattern for 15 average damage sent downrange.  Add the AC-5 for 20.  If it had enough heatsinks the PPCs alone could put out 20 damage a turn and it wouldn't peak at +5 heat for a movement penalty just from firing the longer range guns.  The needed heatsinks would weigh less than the AC-5 and don't require explosive ammunition. 

i'm pretty sure the MAD-1R had an AC in setting as a way to give it versatility. you are right it is largely redundant with the twin PPC's. but only if it is being used as an antimech weapon.
but in star league times, when they fielded whole companies of the same model, that AC would be very handy in that it could load Flak ammo for anti-aircraft/anti-VTOL use.
plus the Marauder MAD-1R came out in 2612, the PPC in 2460. it could be that there was still enough institutional memory of early less reliable PPC's that they wanted a backup just in case. especially since the mackie 6S, which was equipped with a Prototype PPC and came out in 2439, would still have been what many of the mech unit commanders  were using earlier in their careers.

[Atarlost]

Hence the Marauder 3D- no explosions, more heat sinks, and a 'cooler' weapon.

It's better, but it's still very silly to mount a large laser that's only useful if you lose an arm or are inside minimum PPC range. 

What XLs do you say that about?  I mean one I complain about having a XL is the Caeser 3R . . . too thin-skinned for the XL to face the Clans IMO, a cERLL/cERPPC/GR is going to come close to punching through that side torso armor.  Worse is the side torso having a Gauss Rifle & XL- or good if you are the Clanner.  The speed being 4/6 just invites any cavalry design to punch it out and it would be ground under the advance of Clan heavies and assault of similar speed.

Remember, the IS still has an easier time getting mechwarriors than mechs in the Clan Invasion era and in-universe nations and mercenaries are buying mechs for C-bills not BV2.  It's also the era the price tables were written for.  Take let's say a Rakshasa.  Remove all the weapons along one side and enough heatsinks that you only have half a heatsink wasted on a running alpha strike.  Switch the engine to a standard.  Drop the weight to 65 tons (the lowest weight that supports its 206 points of armor).  You can now afford 2 Semirakshasa for the price of one Rakshasa.  They have the same firepower, twice as much armor, and can be in two places at once.  They also each are 1.5 tons underweight. 

Or take the NSR-9J.  Drop the ERPPC and four now redundant heatsinks.  Add three tons of gauss ammo to make up for losing your ammoless weapon.  Swap to a standard engine.  You lose a quarter of your firepower and a bit more than half of your price tag.  Alternately, switch one gauss rifle for a second ERPPC and trade two of your seven tons of gauss ammo for two DHS.  You lose only a sixth of your long range firepower but half your headcapping and still cut your price by a bit more than half. 

There's a point where downsizing a mech that's too fast for its weight starts to create mechs completely incapable of their role, but it's when you're looking at mechs faster than most XL heavies, and XLFEs on stuff that isn't going faster than would be reasonable using SFEs are just silly.

i'm pretty sure the MAD-1R had an AC in setting as a way to give it versatility. you are right it is largely redundant with the twin PPC's. but only if it is being used as an antimech weapon.
but in star league times, when they fielded whole companies of the same model, that AC would be very handy in that it could load Flak ammo for anti-aircraft/anti-VTOL use.
plus the Marauder MAD-1R came out in 2612, the PPC in 2460. it could be that there was still enough institutional memory of early less reliable PPC's that they wanted a backup just in case. especially since the mackie 6S, which was equipped with a Prototype PPC and came out in 2439, would still have been what many of the mech unit commanders  were using earlier in their careers.

Except the MAD-3R only has one ammo bin.  Also, in-universe AC-2s existed when it was designed.  With an AC-2 it could have enough heatsinks for a 3-3-2 firing pattern like the Warhammer.  If you're just carrying one autocannon for flak it should be an AC-2 until the LB-2X is invented.  If they didn't trust PPCs they would not have been willing to mount two on the same mech because a 75 ton mech toting just an AC-5 and two ML because the other guns are downchecked is a joke by any standard. 

[ActionButler]

 C:-)
Hey guys, official moderator hat on.

This is an awesome topic and we want you guys to keep discussing, but we also want to remind you that the Fan Designs section is a thing. If people start to stray too far into the designs realm, we will have to start pruning.

And with that... carry on, dear friends.

[The_Caveman]

That depends on the assault mech.  The Thunderhawk, for example, gains enough in firepower that the XL engine is worth it.

What doesn't make sense are the 3050 mechs that got "upgraded" to XL engines while leaving single heatsinks- the Imp and Atlas being prime offenders.  Especially since both of them were given new weapon loadouts that dramatically increased their heat production.

And that ties in with the Draconis Combine's insanely oversinked ASFs.

XL engines, ER energy weapons, and Double HS all have their re-intro dates spread out across the decade. The Atlas-K does solve the number one gripe of 3025 Atlas drivers: insufficient ranged firepower. Designers in-universe didn't just get a whole pile of new toys and the rules to use them one day, like it was LosTech Christmas or something.

One day the R&D guys come to the 'Mech design board with a new lighter engine, which nobody had field experience with to know it was an expensive deathtrap--all they saw was more room for weapons.

The prototype starts looking like a better AS7-RS (one that doesn't need to downgrade the other weapons) which in 3034 would have been pretty scary. Then the designers get their hands on ER lasers and the first reports start coming back on prototype Gauss rifles and anti-missile systems. Those get fast-tracked for the Atlas upgrade project because their utility is obvious.

Double heatsinks had been prototyped a decade earlier during the battle of Hoff (remember Freezers?) and that version hadn't exactly been revolutionary. Conventional wisdom was the Atlas chassis already had plenty of heat dissipation (which for 3025 is true, it's hard to overheat a D model if you show any kind of restraint) and any Kurita pilot who complained about the heat was going to be told he lacks discipline.

DHS would have been a low priority (and judging from the spread of designs that are in TRO3050, the Fedcom had the edge in DHS development) compared to building the logistics pipeline for getting the new machines into the field. A lance of flawed assault 'Mechs is still better than a single machine with all the bugs worked out.

The fighters are harder to defend (since they all come out long after the AT2 design changes that eliminated the heat from thrust points rule), but it should be noted that they're all fairly simple upgrade kits. They swap the sinks in-place without tinkering with anything. Moving around a few tons here and there is a much bigger deal for a fighter than it is for a 'Mech. Aircraft don't have gyros and they're very sensitive to balance changes.

The current rules are really far too gentle on ASFs with regard to heat. They get babied on movement heat despite working their fusion reactors much harder than 'Mechs and their radiators magically work as efficiently in vacuum as they do in air. It's not so much that the Kurita fighter upgrades are oversinked as everything else should be badly undersinked.

But the whole of aerotech desperately needs to be nuked from orbit and rebooted, designs and all. It has never been a good companion to BT and it's a terrible representation of space combat--either the realistic kind or the starwarsy action kind.