Author Topic: Why Tweak the Autocannon?  (Read 58373 times)

Daryk

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #30 on: 10 September 2019, 19:44:31 »
No one's mentioned Artillery Cannons yet?  ???

AOE damage has a quality all its own...

Fear Factory

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #31 on: 10 September 2019, 20:29:50 »
Increasing damage just works. I'm tied between 3/7/11/20 or 4/8/12/24 for damage. Played both for a while.

I get it that Autocannons are not supposed to be the best weapons. Honestly, I feel like they don't offer anything different than what a laser, PPC, or LRM can offer if you just play the game. This could work:

Lasers/PPC's are vanilla. Just roll to hit and apply damage.
Missiles use the missile hit chart
Autocannons have a +2 damage bonus if they roll above the TN (if you roll a 7 and need a 6 to hit, AC5 does 7 damage)

With this, you're not changing any stats, but they actually feel like a different type of weapon.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #32 on: 10 September 2019, 20:32:18 »
No one's mentioned Artillery Cannons yet?  ???

AOE damage has a quality all its own...

They have many fine qualities

There’s something satisfying about your opponent holing up infantry in tall buildings and being like “that’s nice. Hold still this will only hurt a little”

Increasing damage just works. I'm tied between 3/7/11/20 or 4/8/12/24 for damage. Played both for a while.

I get it that Autocannons are not supposed to be the best weapons. Honestly, I feel like they don't offer anything different than what a laser, PPC, or LRM can offer if you just play the game. This could work:

Lasers/PPC's are vanilla. Just roll to hit and apply damage.
Missiles use the missile hit chart
Autocannons have a +2 damage bonus if they roll above the TN (if you roll a 7 and need a 6 to hit, AC5 does 7 damage)

With this, you're not changing any stats, but they actually feel like a different type of weapon.

I had a powerup in a grinder I did once where all acs got a flat +2 to damage. The results were not unwelcome

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RifleMech

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #33 on: 10 September 2019, 21:10:41 »
No one's mentioned Artillery Cannons yet?  ???

AOE damage has a quality all its own...

I like them. :) Sometimes I'll swap an AC for an artillery cannon just because the damage is so spread out.

Retry

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #34 on: 10 September 2019, 22:17:07 »
Increasing damage just works. I'm tied between 3/7/11/20 or 4/8/12/24 for damage. Played both for a while.

I get it that Autocannons are not supposed to be the best weapons. Honestly, I feel like they don't offer anything different than what a laser, PPC, or LRM can offer if you just play the game. This could work:

Lasers/PPC's are vanilla. Just roll to hit and apply damage.
Missiles use the missile hit chart
Autocannons have a +2 damage bonus if they roll above the TN (if you roll a 7 and need a 6 to hit, AC5 does 7 damage)

With this, you're not changing any stats, but they actually feel like a different type of weapon.
Yeah.  Nearly every bad weapon can be made less bad by pumping more damage in them.  Feels a bit wrong to me when the weapon called an AC/2 doesn't, in fact, deal 2 damage a pop.  You can definitely improve the autocannon without (directly) changing damage, or even weight.

I'll post a thread in Fan Designs on the Autocannon, because specific rules and tweaks seems like it'd be better put there than here.
« Last Edit: 11 September 2019, 00:14:37 by Retry »

Nastyogre

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #35 on: 10 September 2019, 23:50:13 »
I think perhaps a 10% increase to damage (round up so they are 3. 6. 11. 22) with a rule that they cause modifiers to PSR's due to damage or resulting from damage. So the PSR at +20 would have a modifier and if you crit gyro's or leg actuators the force of the AC hit makes it harder to stay upright. Something like if 25% or 50% of the damage sustained in a round is due to Ballistic fire, PSR modifiers apply. It is more bookkeeping, but no more so than cluster hits (less really) or heat and damage weapons like the plasma rifle. This would apply to solid rounds not specialties.

Just a thought.

Everybody ignores they are low heat weapons. Yes yes, you can rip them out and replace them with PPC's and heat sinks in Intro tech and DHS make them all but obsolete by the Clan Invasion.

One thing to point out is that the AC's (with perhaps the exception of the 20) have been understood to be sub-optimal for I dunno, 20 years? New types of AC's and specialty rounds came out to balance that a bit. CGL isn't about to upset the applecart now.  So unless somebody has millions of dollars lying around to buy CGL and remake the game as they would like, this is not really going to convince the people that have the power to alter the game to do so.


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Autocannon Tweaks
« Reply #36 on: 11 September 2019, 00:58:18 »
Posting here instead of "Why Tweak the Autocannon" because actual, specific changes seem better placed in Fan Designs than in general discussion.

When I'm not playing vanilla Battletech, I'm busy fiddling and tweaking with various components of the rules, weapons and equipment to see if I can get something I like a bit better without totally breaking the game.  By the time I take a step back and look, I sometimes find that I've basically created a completely different game with the same name.  I'm guessing a lot of people that have looked at my "Infantry Weapon Overhaul" have figured that out already.  But that's besides the point.

This thread is about the Autocannons, of course.  As the other thread says, lots of people talk about changing up the autocannon from time to time, generally for the better.

The previous thread up in General asks "Why?"  This thread asks "How?"

I really didn't want to change the weight or crit space of what we already had, as then there'd be a serious amount of pain involved in having to redo virtually every single 'mech design to make use of the sudden increase in weight or crits.  I also didn't want to directly increase the Autocannon's damage either, since I didn't want to change the name of the weapon.

Not wanting to do either of those, of course, limits my options a bit.

But I feel it turned out okay in the end.

Here's the top 4 of my "simple" tweaks that I use.  When looked at only by themselves, one by one, they don't seem like much, with the exception of the 4th change.  But

1.Remove the Minimum Range on all ACs

The ACs with minimum ranges, namely the AC/2 and AC/5 and its derivatives, are both very heavy for their firepower.  I feel it hurts no one if they're allowed to apply that firepower even at point blank.  I also don't feel the Autocannon in general needs more crutches.

2.Reduce the heat on all AC/2 variants to 0

Again, the AC/2 is very heavy for its firepower.  And it's basically an overweight long-range machine gun, but it produces heat.  So I figure, why not remove the heat?  Not having that point won't turn AC/2s into 'Mech Eaters, so I figure why not have that tiny bonus of being the overweight machine gun it always wanted to be?

Suprisingly enough, this feels a lot better change than you'd expect a single point of heat to make.  I mean, I logically know that 1 point of heat isn't going to do much to be one way or another, but for whatever reason getting those pot shots in for virtually free just feels good.

3.Increase AC2/5/10/20 ammo to 60/24/12/6 shots per ton.

Originally, I had switched the AC/2 to 50 rounds per ton instead of 45 rounds, because the AC/2 being treated slightly differently with only 90 damage per ton instead of 100 like the rest upset my sense of feng shui.  I ended up increasing the ammo load of all the autocannons by 20%, though.  That puts them on par with the Gauss Rifle.

I had to reasons for this.  One reason of this was to give the AC/20 a nice even number so they can get 3 shots of specialty ammo like AP and precision instead of 2.  As a side effect, mechs that are a bit ammo sparse (King Crab, Rifleman) do get a nice, if short-lived boost.  Overall, the change is minor.

The other reason was to help prepare the autocannon for the fourth tweak...

4.Allow Autocannons to rapid-fire like Ultras with a +1 to-hit penalty
(And change Ultras to not jam, and roll to-hit twice for each shot instead of rolling on the cluster table)

BT's Ultra Autocannons are closer to how I envisioned BT's original, vanilla autocannons than the original: Rapid Fire!  This gives the AC/2 and AC/5 a solid boost in damage output, especially when the target to-hit numbers are relatively low.  Instead of rapid fire being the Ultra's shtick, the new advantage of the Ultra becomes that it's just much better at rapid fire: No jamming chance, no accuracy loss with rapid-fire, and much better at getting at least a partial hit (due to making 2 to-hit rolls instead of just 1 + a cluster roll).

New AC2: Still a bit light on damage, but it's much better than it was.  Compared to the LRM-5, it's still quite a bit heavier, but the AC2 produces no heat, lacks the minimum range, still has a slightly higher maximum range, and can deal almost as much damage in short bursts when double-tapping.  The LRM-5's superiority is no longer quite as clear cut, especially when alternative ammo comes into play.

New AC5: Still fairly heavy, but its damage output with double-tapping is now respectable.  It becomes a decent choice of a main gun for a light tank and can even give the venerable PPC a run for its money, doing nearly the same damage for way less heat and without minimum range issues.

New AC10: Already decent, but now quite strong.  Good range brackets, and can potentially put out even more damage than a Gauss rifle on a good day.  The Large Laser, while still lighter and ammo-less, can't really be a straightfoward replacement to an AC10 anymore.  You sure don't want to be walking around too slowly near one.

New AC20: Downright terrifying.  And you thought the Demolisher was bad before.  Of course, an AC20 is heavy, and a double tapping AC20 is not exactly a cold gun, but the thought of getting pelted by not one, but two 20-point blobs is bound to make any challengers pause.  As a side note, the Medium Laser struggles much more to than it usually does to beat the AC20 in sheer efficiency.



So those are some of my main tweaks.  Though, I've played with a few others from time to time, such as additional ammunition types like Smoke ammo for autocannons, or adding a small anti-infantry bonus to the light autocannons like the AC/2 and (sometimes) the AC/5 like +1D6 damage or so.

carlisimo

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #37 on: 11 September 2019, 02:23:01 »
The least they could is drop the minimum range on the -2 and -5.  I never understood it.

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Re: Autocannon Tweaks
« Reply #38 on: 11 September 2019, 03:03:44 »
Well IMHO the only issue with ACs is inherited from the heat-system - speaking the free engine heatsinks. Most fusion driven vehicles would run with a heavy energy weapon better compared to the Autocannon. Good examples for Mechs are the ShadowHawk, Wolverine, Clint, Hermes II and Dragon, for vehicles it is the Patton (ok a PPC would turn it into a Manticore)

Other designs like the Marauder or Zeus do very good use of their ACs and don't need tweaking (some vehicles might run a AC instead of a second/third energy weapon as well - Shreck with either AC5 or AC10 would make it sturdier, Burke with AC5 would become faster... and so on)

Some designs like the mentioned MAD could even run very good with two AC5s and a single PPC.

So if you want to tweak - tweak Mechs that use the ACs as primary weapon - and that for you have Quirks don't you?
 

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #39 on: 11 September 2019, 07:12:42 »
Everybody ignores they are low heat weapons. Yes yes, you can rip them out and replace them with PPC's and heat sinks in Intro tech and DHS make them all but obsolete by the Clan Invasion.

I can't speak for everyone, but I ignore that they are low-heat weapons because they weigh so much it doesn't even matter. You can take a low-weight, compact energy or missile alternatives and slap in a generous amount of heat sinks to help compensate.

Iracundus

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #40 on: 11 September 2019, 08:05:20 »
Instead of trying to tweak the battlefield performance, why not approach it from the logistics and strategic angle?

Make autocannons significantly cheaper and easier to maintain/operate instead of the reverse.  The current differences in cost right now are either not significant enough or actually disfavor the autocannons. 

So the autocannons become the cheap and easily acquired or repairable weapons that are available nearly everywhere, though at the downside of constantly needing to stock ammunition.  All those fancy energy weapons might run fine on their own but if they should break, good luck finding a replacement or fixing it if you are in the middle of nowhere. 

Fear Factory

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #41 on: 11 September 2019, 08:36:10 »
Yeah.  Nearly every bad weapon can be made less bad by pumping more damage in them.  Feels a bit wrong to me when the weapon called an AC/2 doesn't, in fact, deal 2 damage a pop.  You can definitely improve the autocannon without (directly) changing damage, or even weight.

I mean... they're still causing stock damage?

My complaint is that autocannons don't feel any different from lasers, that's why I figured a damage bonus quirk would help. You can fluff it as a recoil thing, so when you roll the TN you were affected by it. Right now their only big difference is ammo, and that's the one of the first things that scares people from using them outside of their low damage. The risks outweigh the reward.

Instead of trying to tweak the battlefield performance, why not approach it from the logistics and strategic angle?

Make autocannons significantly cheaper and easier to maintain/operate instead of the reverse.  The current differences in cost right now are either not significant enough or actually disfavor the autocannons. 

So the autocannons become the cheap and easily acquired or repairable weapons that are available nearly everywhere, though at the downside of constantly needing to stock ammunition.  All those fancy energy weapons might run fine on their own but if they should break, good luck finding a replacement or fixing it if you are in the middle of nowhere. 

It's a good idea, but it seems that most players don't care about this since they do one-off battles.
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monbvol

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #42 on: 11 September 2019, 09:17:26 »
The existing campaign rules do make them more widely available.  Not sure if they are any cheaper to maintain but are a bit easier for techs to maintain.

Trouble is none of this is enough to offset the extra armor, internal structure, or whatever other components you are going to have to replace more frequently than if you use an alternative.

I can't speak for everyone, but I ignore that they are low-heat weapons because they weigh so much it doesn't even matter. You can take a low-weight, compact energy or missile alternatives and slap in a generous amount of heat sinks to help compensate.

*nod*

If you replace them intelligently with an alternative the weight, not the lack of damage for the weight, is really the crux of the problem.

I've done some testing with ACs going on diets and I'll say I actually liked the outcomes of those tests more than just simply adding damage or extra special case rules to a game that already has too many special case rules and stuff to keep track of.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #43 on: 11 September 2019, 09:31:25 »
The existing campaign rules do make them more widely available.  Not sure if they are any cheaper to maintain but are a bit easier for techs to maintain.

Actually they are not, at least not significantly.   The costs gets worse with the live ammo training requirements of Interstellar Operations, basically using 1/4 of the ammo in peacetime training to keep skills up.  Within 6 months, an AC/10's training costs will have closed the cost gap with a PPC+10 heat sinks.   The Tech Manual for the latest era availabilities, has AC/5 with less availability than a large laser or PPC.  My idea was to make standard autocannons more readily available. 

TL;DR  Autocannons are not actually easier to acquire or cheaper going by the rules as written.  Maybe that is what should change.

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Re: Autocannon Tweaks
« Reply #44 on: 11 September 2019, 09:42:28 »
The Marauder doesn't make good use of its autocannon.  If you got rid of it (and the ammo in the left torso crit trap), you could add enough heat sinks to fire the PPCs consistently for no loss in sustained damage, with enough room left over to improve armor or short-ranged firepower substantially with medium lasers.

The Zeus is merely "okay" in its use of its AC/5, and in fact has a variant (6T) that replaces it with a PPC and heat sinks for slightly better results.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #45 on: 11 September 2019, 09:50:18 »
I mean... they're still causing stock damage?

My complaint is that autocannons don't feel any different from lasers, that's why I figured a damage bonus quirk would help. You can fluff it as a recoil thing, so when you roll the TN you were affected by it. Right now their only big difference is ammo, and that's the one of the first things that scares people from using them outside of their low damage. The risks outweigh the reward.
Well, not if you increase the damage to 3/7/11/22?

I went with a different route, instead of making autocannons deal extra damage, they can rapid-fire like an Ultra (with Ultras also getting improved).  That and a few other minor changes made the ACs feel different, and the light ACs felt much more competitive.
Instead of trying to tweak the battlefield performance, why not approach it from the logistics and strategic angle?

Make autocannons significantly cheaper and easier to maintain/operate instead of the reverse.  The current differences in cost right now are either not significant enough or actually disfavor the autocannons. 

So the autocannons become the cheap and easily acquired or repairable weapons that are available nearly everywhere, though at the downside of constantly needing to stock ammunition.  All those fancy energy weapons might run fine on their own but if they should break, good luck finding a replacement or fixing it if you are in the middle of nowhere. 
That is a good idea, but I think you'd have to modify the costs of basically everything.  Otherwise it's still very, very difficult to beat a medium laser in cost efficiency unless you make the Autocannons absurdly cheap, and for 'Mechs the dominating C-Bill cost is usually the gyro & engine anyways, not weapons.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #46 on: 11 September 2019, 10:02:35 »
One simple change that wouldn't affect the weight or damage, or require a lot of record keeping, would be to apply a +1 to any PSRs taken if at least 5 points of damage came from ballistic weapons.  The lowly AC/5 wouldn't force the piloting roll by itself, but if you hit with that and 3 MLs (or 15+ LRMs), the odds of the target falling go up because of that AC damage.  Having an AC on every 'Mech might not be ideal, but you'd want at least one in any Medium or heavier lance.

Another possibility would be to give them (using standard ammo) a modifier on all critical hit chances, so if you do manage to breach armor, the solid penetrator round of an AC is more likely to do internal damage.

Church14

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #47 on: 11 September 2019, 10:28:28 »
Would it not be simpler to improve the ammunition types? Leave stats as is. Trying to change that now is a lot.

Start by making the alternate ammo types all have full # of shots.

Then, make the bonuses slightly better.


If you do this ACs are still meh in 3025 matches. Come 3050 or whenever, the new, superior ammo types arrive and make ACs viable and good.

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Re: Autocannon Tweaks
« Reply #48 on: 11 September 2019, 11:37:23 »
Dump the AC/10 from Centurion for a PPC and heatsinks and a ton of armor.
Pull the AC/5 from a Sentinel or Clint or Hermes II, Wolverine or Shadow Hawk for a ppc (if the range is important) or LL.
Then the point that mechs use ACs efficiently becomes clear. They don't. So many say that the autocannon died with the return of Star League tech, but the truth is, the PPC and LL killed auto-cannons for anything but ICE platforms before the Age of War.

However, that was kinda the point. ACs still exist for those peeps that can't get Particle Cannons or lasers. They're a "what you can afford" weapon system. In skirmishing this is a pointless balance, no one balances their skirmishes on c-bills, and the only way bv's going to knock you to ACs is if you want to outnumber your opponent in weapons platforms. So there needs to be a reason for ACs in skirmish/non story games beyond "I'm so good I can beat you with garbage."

Inside campaigns though, the disparity between availability/cost of autocannons still isn't wide enough. Maybe quirks helps with that, my campaigning experience is all pre-quirks gaming, but as quirks is an option, I'd be far more comfortable with a retcon of autocannon prices. It's going to invalidate the one stat on recordsheets that would be flexible in a campaign anyway. So here's my take.

For campaigns Cut the autocannon and standard ammo prices in half. Yeah half, make it cheap enough it makes since to field them. Also, no logistics checks to purchase AC ammo, it may not be on planet, but someone somewhere has it, and its easy enough to produce finding it on the market should be a non issue. The "can I purchase" check gets replaced with a "time to arrival check".

For game mechanics. Successful AC hits increase any PSR already forced by 1/1/2/2 before specialty ammo. This shouldn't be cumulative though, to prevent spamming of low end acs. It means you have to respect the unit with the AC, and fits things like the MW games AC knock overs.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #49 on: 11 September 2019, 11:37:25 »
No, engineering reality.

And I say that as a person who is really not a fan of overbalancing high-tech.

Unless you invent TARDIS technology and apply it to make your shell bigger on the inside, you're limited by the shape and space of the shell and practical concerns (adding all your features cannot let your shell look like swiss cheese).

You could make a good APBC-T round.  You could make a good APFSDS round.  You could make a good tandem-charge HEAT or maybe a Proximity HE round.  But you're not going to get a good APBCFSDSHEATP-T round.

Okay. I've seen the displays of cut-outs for the current different types of ballistics for artillery and tank cannons, and I see what you're getting at from a current real-world engineering standpoint. However, smart rounds have been a thing for sci-fi, especially in novels, though getting some nods in movies or shows (Andromeda).  Modern engineering is limited by our understanding of things now.  However, the autocannon is effectively at its peak in 4-500 years in the BTu. They're even trying to work on impact resistant circuits to get some refined versatility in artillery rounds now in the 21st century.  And, look how much things have shrunk in regards to personal electronics in the last 40 years. 

Even understanding that there will come a cap in micronization technologies, I don't find it hard to believe that the Star League's autocannon munitions are much more advanced than what we have now. The stock performance in the game, in this case the game of yore in the BattleTech Master Rules, and even in CityTech, where weapons did their value in damage to a number of bodies, or in armor and internal structure points, is what that looks like.

Do you attribute it to being able to choose proximity explosions for AA or AP work versus rounds homing onto a spot for standard anti-armor work with the loaded cassette before firing?  Or maybe it's a matter of switching between homing in on the shell in front of the next to get a tight grouping on an armored target versus switching parameters for targeting a group of infantry.  (At one point, I'd attributed it to recoil safeties, having it on for armored targets and turning it off to get a spread against infantry groups. But, I'm looking at the munitions aspect, here.)  Either way, the performance is what we got in-game. 

The advanced Armor Piercing and Precision ammo types, which still amp up basic attributes of the standard round, are bulkier/heavier, as you point out from an engineering aspect.

Yet, I'm suggesting that they should have (critique here-) looked at using the bonuses they apply to current alternate ammo types and give those bonuses when stock rounds are used against low-tech materials and combat units. The auto cannon was powerful back in the day and more than what we get now. I still wish to see that portrayed, and am disappointed in the current rule-set's handling of that aspect.

The current range of alternate munitions which bring back the capacities used in the BMR, (strictly speaking how flechette ammo allows an AC to do full damage against a conventional infantry formation), doesn't feel like a fair trade, but something cheeper that gets handed out to militia units. Or, if it were to be a proper upgrade to AC munitions, it should offer some sort of bonus, like rolling a number of d6s like Anti-infantry weapons get to do.  In fact, (another critique) I find it hard to imagine that flechette rounds, which break apart to spray an area with fine shrapnel, should be doing static damage values, altogether, against infantry.

Wouldn't it be funny if 'Front Line' munitions used against commercial grade support armor, or primitive armor, got a crit chance based on AC class?  Or, when dealing with Industrials with older ECM packages, Front Line munitions got to negate TMMs?

(Anyone else remember the head-hunter SRMs? But those are missiles, and they were easily countered with a chip-set change.)

Of course, a lot of this is based on my imagination and the fact that I don't buy into a lot of the buzz-words bandied about in the rules and equipment fiction write-ups.  I don't see a miss as a whiff.  I think of BT's tech as significantly more advanced than what we have now such that some things are effectively magic (armor) and it takes some equally magical stuff to counter it (computers - advanced programs - fancy bullets and missiles moving near the speed of light - megamelta heat rayz).

If that's not part of your BT world-view, then we'll be constantly talking in circles if we don't acknowledge the other viewpoint.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #50 on: 11 September 2019, 11:42:22 »
The least they could is drop the minimum range on the -2 and -5.  I never understood it.

Some have suggested that it's the way the shots focus for the different range bands.  (edit) More, how the barrel tracks to get the higher focus at range.  So, they can't track really close targets easily.

Personally, I think this could be another sign of homing capacity, and much like the LRMs they fly out of the barrels so fast that it takes that much space for the circuitry to be ready.


« Last Edit: 11 September 2019, 11:52:37 by Daemion »
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #51 on: 11 September 2019, 11:48:08 »
TL;DR  Autocannons are not actually easier to acquire or cheaper going by the rules as written.  Maybe that is what should change.

I can get behind that. It really seems to fit since vehicles are supposed to outnumber Mechs, and a lot of chassis use the AC/5 as a primary gun. If that's the case, then there's a case for abundance.  And, during the succession wars, it was known that vehicles would be stripped of fancy things to outfit a Mech.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #52 on: 11 September 2019, 14:07:31 »
Even understanding that there will come a cap in micronization technologies, I don't find it hard to believe that the Star League's autocannon munitions are much more advanced than what we have now. The stock performance in the game, in this case the game of yore in the BattleTech Master Rules, and even in CityTech, where weapons did their value in damage to a number of bodies, or in armor and internal structure points, is what that looks like.
I agree they'll be more advanced than nowadays, and I think that's represented by autocannons being roughly what they are instead of Rifle Cannons which lose damage against 'mech armor.  The regular AC shells are usually described as HEAP (High Explosive Armor Piercing), which honestly sounds a lot like real-life HEIAP or SAPHEI.  Which would make sense since BT's autocannon's primary damage mechanism is not to penetrate armor, but to blast it off.

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Yet, I'm suggesting that they should have (critique here-) looked at using the bonuses they apply to current alternate ammo types and give those bonuses when stock rounds are used against low-tech materials and combat units. The auto cannon was powerful back in the day and more than what we get now. I still wish to see that portrayed, and am disappointed in the current rule-set's handling of that aspect.
Which bonuses, specifically?  Flechettes only, or Flak Rounds and Tracers too?

There's ways to make the ACs more powerful, it isn't necessary to simply give the AC a smorgasbord of bonuses from regular ammo under specific conditions (low-tech materials).  I posted a thread down in Fan Designs on the ACs about that.

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Of course, a lot of this is based on my imagination and the fact that I don't buy into a lot of the buzz-words bandied about in the rules and equipment fiction write-ups.  I don't see a miss as a whiff.  I think of BT's tech as significantly more advanced than what we have now such that some things are effectively magic (armor) and it takes some equally magical stuff to counter it (computers - advanced programs - fancy bullets and missiles moving near the speed of light - megamelta heat rayz).

Sure, BT armor is very advanced.  A small, thinly armored head joint is able to survive hits from 125 kg slugs flying at hypersonic velocities without penetration.  That is what it takes for an armored vehicle to survive for more than 10 seconds in the 31st century.

Advanced isn't the same thing as "no disadvantages".  The ablation also means that much smaller payloads, like 30mm autocannons, tiny 8.3 kg missiles, and even machine guns can peel off that ablative armor bit by bit no matter how thick it is, whereas with conventional anti-penetrative armors (basically everything we use today) they'd bounce right off.  Just the price you have to pay to avoid being instantly cored by a Gauss rifle, or even a regular AC/5.

Thus, there's really no need for a hyper-expensive, magical autocannon round mated with a supercomputing chip in order to damage scratch the paint.  Throwing enough old-fashioned HEAP at the problem will eventually evaporate the armor, and soon after the problem.

We don't really have an "ablative" armor in real-life but the principles of it are pretty straight-foward: The material breaks off, evaporates, or otherwise absorbs the energy of oncoming blows (thermal, kinetic or otherwise) as the "protection" mechanism.  It's not exactly magic.  So I think of Battletech and their technologies as "Extremely advanced, but not incomprehensibly so", generally speaking.

If there was such a magic armor under such a hyper-advanced setting I wouldn't blink twice at seeing something like energy shields.

But none of this seems to be particularly relevant to the Autocannon.

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Re: Autocannon Tweaks
« Reply #53 on: 11 September 2019, 15:40:16 »
Inside campaigns though, ... I'd be far more comfortable with a retcon of autocannon prices. It's going to invalidate the one stat on recordsheets that would be flexible in a campaign anyway. So here's my take.

For campaigns Cut the autocannon and standard ammo prices in half. Yeah half, make it cheap enough it makes since to field them. Also, no logistics checks to purchase AC ammo, it may not be on planet, but someone somewhere has it, and its easy enough to produce finding it on the market should be a non issue. The "can I purchase" check gets replaced with a "time to arrival check".

This is an easy change that I can get behind.  Although the reasoning may differ.  I view ACs as able to accept any bore-size with some minor machine work in the shop.

Here's the top 4 of my "simple" tweaks that I use. 

1.Remove the Minimum Range on all ACs

2.Reduce the heat on all AC/2 variants to 0

3.Increase AC2/5/10/20 ammo to 60/24/12/6 shots per ton.

4.Allow Autocannons to rapid-fire like Ultras with a +1 to-hit penalty
(And change Ultras to not jam, and roll to-hit twice for each shot instead of rolling on the cluster table)

BT's Ultra Autocannons are closer to how I envisioned BT's original, vanilla autocannons than the original: Rapid Fire!  This gives the AC/2 and AC/5 a solid boost in damage output, especially when the target to-hit numbers are relatively low.  Instead of rapid fire being the Ultra's shtick, the new advantage of the Ultra becomes that it's just much better at rapid fire: No jamming chance, no accuracy loss with rapid-fire, and much better at getting at least a partial hit (due to making 2 to-hit rolls instead of just 1 + a cluster roll).

I like all of these, and have considered some of them at one point or another.  I've never completely played around with them, but, they make sense in a development stand-point.  Ultra Autocannon were simply normal autocannon at one point with some tweaks to rate of fire.

I'd never thought about tweaking the ammo beyond standardizing the AC/2's ammo to match the rest. But, I like the notion of improved ammo capacity, as maybe lostech or upgrade.  Anyone remember the Gauss Rifle misprint in TR 2750? It had 10 rounds instead of 8.  I look at that as a lostech find and have incorporated it in my campaigns.  This could very well be the same thing.

My Tweaks
A lot of my tweaks I've really put thought into are less improvements but sideways performance changes. I'm not looking to improve the autocannon, but to get it to perform like it reads it aught. 

Burst Fire Change - As a rapid-fire burst weapon, it should be a cluster weapon that does variable damage to a concise spot.  I don't like the idea that the Class value is its max value, so I've gone through the cluster tables to find which columns average 2, 5, 10 and 20, and that's the column the AC rolls on to determine actual damage, giving it the opportunity to do more or less.  The AC/2 rolls on the 3 column.  The 5 gets a choice between 8 and 9, and tech base can be applied here.  The ten would roll on the 16 or 17 columns, again using tech base to determine which.  And, the 20 would have to double the effect of the 16 or 17 table.  So, on rare occasions, the AC/20 could work better than the RAC 5 at full rate.

This is more for the idea that there are no advanced homing rounds in stock AC munitions, and work strictly with the idea its firing a burst in a tight grouping. So, if you wanted to, this could be a cheap ammunition type that could be sold to militias and mercs.  With this ammo type relying solely on the recoil-compensation capacities of the normal cannon, it makes sense that no minimums apply.

Ultra Autocannon would simply double the final damage value of the column rolled on. Changed my mind. Both shots are rolled on the column separately, and applied separately, as normal.

I'm not sure how I would apply this to RACs.  You could multiply the final damage by the RoF.

But, one of the things that I liked about the RAC was the fact that it got to apply the damage across multiple locations. And, I don't want to do '5-point groupings' because that, in my view, is a sign of homing rounds, and that's not what this style is trying to emulate. So, if you're willing and patient, you could roll for each burst separately, maybe as separate attacks, even. (This gives me an idea - see below.)

 

Variable Speed AC - This is what I think ultra should have been.  The different classes of cannon can underperform to the lower class levels to get better ranges.

So, an AC/20 can fire like a 10, 5, or 2, and get those ranges, as an example.  But, ammo tracking would be different.  Each bin would come with 100 ammo, and firing like an AC/2 would mark off 2 points of ammo, firing like a five would mark off 5, a ten would eat up 10, and twenty would eat up 20.



RAC Attack - If you're gonna have the Ultra treat each burst as a separate attack with its own attack roll, for consistency's sake, so should the RAC.  However, I'd change how Jamming is resolved. Instead of the increased threshold on the single attack value, since you're making multiple attack rolls, each one checks for jam on snake-eyes.  To keep it simple (especially for those that fistful-of-death often, which is common practice in my groups), roll all the attacks, and any hits still apply even if one or more of them jams the gun.  The Jam happens at the end of the weapon fire phase, and multiple jams have no real effect. Unless! If you want to be mean, extra jams add to the modifier for the clearing attempt on subsequent turns. IE, you roll 1 jam, no mods.  You roll three jams at full rate, that's two extra, and your clearing attempts on the following turns get a +2 modifier due to the extra damage.


The Glory Days of Yore - I get that mere board/war-gamers want the IntroTech Cannon to be competitive in IntroTech.  Maybe it's because they have a favorite design that's burdened with one of these guns.  But, one of the things I liked about the older boxed sets was the inclusion of the construction rules. I love the Warhammer, for example.  I love how it looks.  I love its big guns and can put up with some overheat.  But, I don't like its armor layout, and a simple drop of the machine guns and ammo gives me the capacity to improve the legs and side torsos to take a 20-point hit with merely a ton of armor, and maybe throw in an extra heat sink, or go better on the armor.

Same with the Shad, or the Rifleman, or Wolverine, or Marauder.

This almost forces players to change eras to get away from the dated, dead-end technology weapons.  It's because I look on the AC as a choice weapon from another time that I can get behind the notion that they, like intro-tech level mechs in later eras, should be easy to find and in fairly large numbers.

But, there was a time in history when it was the gun of choice for ground and space combat units.  I point you to the Merkava Tank and others out of the history books.  But, the way it performs in the current eras doesn't really suggest how it could have become such a mainstay, much like BattleMechs.

So, one of the things I've looked into, and am still playing around with, is improved performance against older technologies.  I've brought this up in the 'Why' thread, but I think Stock ACs should get some sort of bonus against Anything less than BAR 10 and/or Tech Class C or less. And, if you don't use those armors, then anything that uses the primitive/commercial armor construction and rules. 

Y'know how there's that armor-piercing munition for the newer eras? Well, stock front-line ACs should get that effect against commercial/primitive armors, with no change in tonnage or rounds per ton. 

Anything not using a dedicated fire control system? Well it probably isn't moving defensively, either. So, Stock, front-line AC munitions should get the precision effect against that, too. (It's the only thing I could think of that emulates not having a high enough eco package. You could quirk primitive units into having ECM levels.)

Stock rounds should get the flak effect against primitive atmospheric and aerospace fighters.

Stock rounds should get some sort of Anti-personnel effect against non-frontline infantry.  Personally, I'd have it roll 1d6 for each point of direct fire damage it would normally do unaugmented. AC/2 would become a murder machine at range.

And, each of these effects can also be bought cheaply with rounds dedicated to those effects, as is the case in Total Warfare.

(Aside: I would like to note that I'm not worried about range representation during this era because it predates the BattleMech.  I'm willing to accept range truncation up until the Mech takes the field, or even suggest that ranges are on the low-altitude scale.  It's when the Mech takes the field that ranges get cut short due to defensive maneuvering algorithms. And, for a short time, like maybe a decade, Mechs get to use that range advantage against other, low-tech forces that haven't figured it out.  That includes the bonuses that comes from the AC/5 of the era, on the Mackie!)


Someone in the 'Why' thread suggested boosting the damage by +2, with some variations. (I'm actually fond of the rolling a MoS of 1 or more getting the effect, where as a just hit does standard damage.) I could see this as yet another stock munition option against dated tech, or an alternate munition type.  (I know I'm going to be looking at this for my Magi Arena Magic Crossover setting.  The Red Mage would definitely give that kind of boost.)   An incendiary effect that works on dated building codes, maybe?  Or, maybe applied to armors based on range of Tech Level from D?

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #54 on: 11 September 2019, 15:59:18 »
It's kinda funny every time TPTB talk about twerking or retconning some, someone breaks out the pitch forks and torches but when it's a fan, everyone puts in their 2 cents on what needs to be changed to make things 'better'

Right now I'm tempted to say do away with ACs all together, problem solved.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #55 on: 11 September 2019, 16:23:38 »
If TPTB start twerking, I'm not grabbing pitchforks.  I'm fleeing, because it must be the end times.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #56 on: 11 September 2019, 17:06:04 »
When even the OP wanders into fan rules territory, I think it might be time to move this thread to the fan rules section...

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Re: Autocannon Tweaks
« Reply #57 on: 11 September 2019, 17:50:05 »
The simplest tweak I can think of would be to simply change the damage by the Margin of Success or Failure.  Yes, that means AC/20s almost always do SOME damage, but hey, that makes it worth using one of those 5 shots per ton worth something, even at Extreme Range.  And it makes AC/2s actually respectable!

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #58 on: 11 September 2019, 17:53:21 »
TW 2.0 autocannon tweaks:

Standard AC munitions now fire glitter bombs in any predesignated color combination. Damage is X humiliations

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #59 on: 11 September 2019, 19:41:48 »
Side note: Wasn't there someone who did the math to compare the efficiency of all the introtech weapons?
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