Author Topic: Why Tweak the Autocannon?  (Read 58159 times)

monbvol

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #60 on: 11 September 2019, 20:21:43 »
Probably several posters several times.

garhkal

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Re: Autocannon Tweaks
« Reply #61 on: 11 September 2019, 23:16:12 »
I agree with a lot of those suggestions..  especially the -remove the min range- part.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #62 on: 12 September 2019, 00:36:39 »
I know the Medium Laser wins that contest almost every time.

Greatclub

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #63 on: 12 September 2019, 01:18:51 »
in 3025 the autocannon wasn't bad. A ac/10 was less efficient than a large laser, and an ac/5 was both less efficient and effective than the PPC, but they were in the same pall-park after engine mounted heatsinks were filled.

Then DHS came around and the balance changed. The LB-X obsoleted the standard ac/10 and stayed competitive, but the rest of the bunch fell behind until alternate ammo came along.

I have a sparring partner with a combined arms perversion. Do you have any idea how many times a blackjack full of flak has saved my butt from infantry field guns, choppers and ASF? Mech on mech the popguns are barely above a joke, but I'll still take it.
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 01:22:28 by Greatclub »

Caedis Animus

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #64 on: 12 September 2019, 01:23:33 »
Honestly? Depends on how you look at it.

DHS being introduced indirectly nerfed ballistics by making them get caught even further behind, true; But the ballistics themselves were never as good as energy in the first place. Ton-for-ton, point-for-point, energy was always more effecient regardless of heat, and I think that's more a fault of how ballistics and energy were implemented in the early days than a fault of DHS getting added.

If DHS were never added, the Gauss Rifle and LB10X would've still been the undisputed kings of IS Ballistics, and no amount of DHS addition would ever change that. Almost as though have a 6-ton, 1-crit weapon doing 3 less damage for 1/3 the heat of a weapon with 1-ton and 1-crit, especially in the short ranges of most BTech games, was a bad idea. And that's not even getting into why the LRM-5 is basically just a better choice than the AC/2 if you want the range game, not the least of which is even earlier and better special ammo/abilities.
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 01:26:05 by Caedis Animus »

Greatclub

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #65 on: 12 September 2019, 01:38:53 »
Almost as though have a 6-ton, 1-crit weapon doing 3 less damage for 1/3 the heat of a weapon with 1-ton and 1-crit, especially in the short ranges of most BTech games, was a bad idea. And that's not even getting into why the LRM-5 is basically just a better choice than the AC/2 if you want the range game, not the least of which is even earlier and better special ammo/abilities.

AC/2 is a bad choice for the arguement, although even there I'll point out the wider ideal range band it has over LRMs.

Try comparing the ac/10 and large laser. If engine heat sinks are filled, you pay basically 3 tons for 2 more damage, including the possibility of going internal on a head hit. Same ballpark.

ac/5 VS PPC? 10 tons for five damage or 17 for 10. The ac is less efficient and less effective, but if all you have is 10 tons, it's still a solid medium range gun in introtech.

Take the mech [here, which I call the GriffinHawk. PPC and AC/5. I pretty much guarantee it'll smack around a normal griffin, just because the range bands on both weapons match.

Caedis Animus

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #66 on: 12 September 2019, 01:52:50 »
AC/2 is a bad choice for the arguement, although even there I'll point out the wider ideal range band it has over LRMs.

ac/5 VS PPC? 10 tons for five damage or 17 for 10. The ac is less efficient and less effective, but if all you have is 10 tons, it's still a solid medium range gun in introtech.
Ignoring the custom... thing, the thing is, it's the AC/2 and AC/5 that are the issue more than the AC/10 and AC/20. 20 points in a single punch hurts like hell, and 10 points is at least respectable even if it's not quite effecient;

But 5 damage and 2 damage? When competing with the PPC and LRMs? Yeah. No. Not even a contest. Shooting someone from another zip code doesn't matter if you can't even scare off a flock of pigeons with it, better range bands or not. Almost better off sending a peasant to attack the other Mechwarrior with a nerf bat in the night. The AC/5's at least marginally better... Than the AC/2.

EDIT; Seriously, I really don't care for everything being effecient, but... Seriously, they could've at least thought of a way to make the AC/2 and AC/5 worth the tonnage to mount.
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 01:58:04 by Caedis Animus »

Greatclub

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #67 on: 12 September 2019, 02:04:06 »
LRM-15 VS AC/5

LRM-15:
7 tons+5heat sinks+2 ammo. 14 tons.
Average 8 damage, 2 clusters
Range: 6 in the minimum band, 1 in the ideal band, 7 in the medium band

ac/5:
8 tons + 1 heat sink + 1 ammo. 10 tons
5 damage
Range: 3 in the minimum band, 3 in the ideal band, 6 in the medium band.


Don't make me laugh, they're comparable. Not if you haven't filled the engine mounted heat sinks, but after?

00000

I think a lot of the prejudice against the ac/5 is how badly it's installed on the TRO:3025 mechs; the shad and hermes don't fill their heat sinks, and the marauder has better things to do with the tonnage than the 'cannon (Heat sinks). On the Zeus it earns its keep
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 02:19:01 by Greatclub »

Caedis Animus

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #68 on: 12 September 2019, 02:20:02 »
Oh boy, someone on the internet is laughing because they think they are right. I haven't heard that one a million times. So scared, et cetera.

Reminder that LRM-15s can pelt your god-gun AC/5 unit from beyond the AC/5's range with a maximum of triple the damage or an average of just over even damage. With spotters, that LRM unit can continue peppering you with impunity from behind a nice hill. Heat sinks are less of an object because this discussion is either about battlemechs (Which have engine mounted heat sinks, as you pointed out) or combat vees (Which don't pay the extra heat sink cost because they don't track heat).

The point is, the 'extra tonnage' fallacy in this case is just that. A fallacy. I've calculated it before, only to find it doesn't matter because the one unit type that cares really doesn't have to care, and the other unit doesn't care whatsoever.

EDIT; "But what about minimum range". Hey, never said LRMs were flawless. But then, we normally aren't comparing LRM-15s to AC/5s unless it's the Jagermech series. Normally it's PPC versus AC/5, which is a lot easier to compare as "Yep, throw that AC garbage out".
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 02:32:07 by Caedis Animus »

Greatclub

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #69 on: 12 September 2019, 02:36:56 »
Zeus 6S VS Zeus 6T. Despite having the ac/5, the -6S has a higher BPV - and deserves it.

I'll take three guns I can use consistently over two with a third that'll overheat me, even if one of the guns deals more damage.

THAT is the AC/5 done right, perhaps for the only time in in TRO:3025.

Talen5000

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #70 on: 12 September 2019, 02:38:09 »
It is not going to happen since it would require too many changes to all sorts of mechs but I would like autocannons more if they weighed less and some other benefits.

There is no way current ACs are going to be resized. It would invalidate too many designs.

What could happen is a slight reworking....

For example, the idea that an autocannon can have a "slow" rate of fire should be dropped. You want that type of weapon, there is the Gauss, and we could create a new modern Rifle. Autocannons should be just what they are stated to be - rapid fire weapons that fire a burst of shells. That way, the mass can be explained away as the mounting, feed mechanism, cooling systems and anti recoil measures designed to keep the weapon on target during the burst. You'd probably want to specify something akin to an AC/2 firing a ten round burst.

Now, that isn't to say that ACs couldn't be -as the title says -  tweaked. But it would have to be rules based becasue otherwsie, the only other option is to design a brand new weapon.

So - what could be done if the weapon stats cannot change?

Ammo - this could be a potential penalty. Ammunition amounts would drop. Doesn't change the mass, doesn't change the crits. Just means fewer shots per ton. Would an AC/2 that gets 10 shots per ton of ammo be of interest to anyone? Probably not. Unless there were changes to go with it. Of course the problem with changing ammo amounts are the changes necessray to the record sheets.

So - what rules change could be done to make ACs more "viable" if the stats cannot undergo major changes.

1 - ACs use ADL ammo. In short, the weapon can choose between flak, standard and flechette rounds at will.
2 - All ACs use the same ammunition and can draw from the same bins. Say - each bin provides enough ammo for 15 damage. You fire an AC/2, you use 2 points worth of ammo. You fire an AC/20...you fire 20 points of ammo. Yes, with these specific values, you'd need two tons of ammo which would break a couple of designs but this is simply to illustrate the concept. Again, record sheet issues, but a simple rules change stating all AC ammunition bins give x shots per ton might be, but probably isn't, viable.
3 - There is no such thing as "precision" ammunition (except possibly for older model ACs which lack the appropriate firecontrol). All ACs get a -1 TN bonus. Caselss ammo is standard.
4 - ACs can be downgraded to the same range and damage as lower class ACs....an AC/5 can act as an AC2/ and AC/20 can act as an AC/2, AC/5 or an AC/10.
5 - ACs deal triple damage vs buildings, half damage vs Mechs and modern combat vehicles, full damage vs support vehicles and conventional infantry. We could have lasers do half damage vs buildings for even more differentiation.
6 - ACs can fire twice per round, with a targeting penalty.
7 - ACs might be able to get away with a slight reduction in mass of between 0.25 and 2 tons, which could then be spent on ammo. Maybe each 0.25 tons gives you 3.75 shots of ammo.
8 - Different fusing and spread options to allow for indirect fire and AOE effects - miniature on board artillery.
 
Or whatever. Tweaks to ACs, if desireable, have to come via the rules. Those are a lot easiee to change that dozens of AC using designs. The size and base power of the weapon cannot change and while there is some leeway with mass, there isn't a lot. That implies increasing the weapons flexibility, or making it specialise in certain roles.

Lets say these concepts were used for ACs.
ACs would be just as heavy as they are now.
Just as large.
But more flexible, more accurate, able to adjust to different targets, able to act as weak artillery with a specialisation of anti-fortification
But the down side is that they have a much shorter battlefield duration. Ammunition would be large, heavy, expensive and ACs fire a lot of it.


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Caedis Animus

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #71 on: 12 September 2019, 02:40:14 »
Zeus 6S VS Zeus 6T. Despite having the ac/5, the -6S has a higher BPV - and deserves it.

I'll take three guns I can use consistently over two with a third that'll overheat me, even if one of the guns deals more damage.

THAT is the AC/5 done right, perhaps for the only time in in TRO:3025.
I'll agree with the Zeus. I have far less of a problem with the Autocannon being used explicitly to save on heat, especially considering the Zeus has enough heat woes with the good energy and missile compliment, and a mediocre mid-range weapon with no heat woes to speak of is better than a harder-hitting heat hog with the same range on an already hot-running ride.

That said, I'd like to note-I have 0 (internal) problems with the damage of the AC/5 and AC/2. I have more of a problem with the obscene size of both guns than I do with the damage. A reduction in 2 tons of weight to both and a reduction to 3 crits on the AC/5 would be cherry.
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 02:47:42 by Caedis Animus »

Sartris

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #72 on: 12 September 2019, 06:35:44 »
I get the feeling ACs were always supposed to be outperformed by lasers because of mechs’ ability to overheat. The real AC heat advantage is in ICE tanks

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RifleMech

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #73 on: 12 September 2019, 06:49:18 »
The ACs are great for saving on heat. I do not have a problem with the weight. I never have. When you add in heat sinks, ammo, and possibly power amplifiers Autocannons end up weighing less.

Energy weapons generate more heat and possibly require power amplifiers. That increases the total weight of the system. Smaller energy weapons can actually weigh less than the biggest ACs however they loose the ACs big punch.

Missiles also generate more heat. That means more heat sinks which make them heavier. Their damage is also random or limited which means you need a larger system to be consistent with Autocannons. That makes them heavier. Clan weapons have an edge here though. So do units that don't track hear. Still, unless vehicles are getting very lucky they're still wasting a large number of very expensive missiles. They also have less shots to start with which limits their endurance on the field.

What really hurts Autocannons is that some engines come with Heat Sinks. Players also don't usually consider things like cost and maintenance. They just look at weight, crits, damage, and range on a BattleMech with a fusion engine. If one looks at more than just those things though Autocannons look a lot better.

Speaking of cost and maintenance, Heat Sinks do have a cost. (Power Amplifiers too) The more you need the more expensive your whole weapons system is. They also have to be maintained. I'm not sure about coolant cost but it should be figured in. Especially if advanced rules are used and units overheat enough. Then they'd need to replace their coolant. That adds a hidden cost I don't think most people think about. It's not just weapon and ammo. 

Overall I can see why Autocannons are still around and haven't and won't be eclipsed by energy or missile systems. They're inexpensive and over all better for lower tech units. The smaller ACs are also good low heat long range weapons with a good ammo supply while the larger ACs pack a big wallop. That doesn't mean Missile Carrier and Energy Boats don't have a place. It just means that there's still a place for Autocannons.

Iracundus

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #74 on: 12 September 2019, 08:31:22 »
Speaking of cost and maintenance, Heat Sinks do have a cost. (Power Amplifiers too) The more you need the more expensive your whole weapons system is. They also have to be maintained. I'm not sure about coolant cost but it should be figured in. Especially if advanced rules are used and units overheat enough. Then they'd need to replace their coolant. That adds a hidden cost I don't think most people think about. It's not just weapon and ammo. 

As I have already stated several times in this thread, the cost for Autocannons is not significantly cheaper.

The cost for an AC/10 is only about 8k lower than a PPC+10 heat sinks.  In all the rules for maintenance, there is no cost for coolant.  It is either already accounted for in the general maintenance costs or so cheap that it is effectively negligible.  The 8k difference in price is about 6 months worth of live ammo training in order to maintain skills.  After 6 months, the ongoing costs for the AC/10 make it more expensive.  That is what I mean about the rules not reflecting this supposed idea of autocannons being cheaper. 
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 08:33:32 by Iracundus »

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #75 on: 12 September 2019, 09:49:35 »
Why does everyone tweek the autocannons? Because if you so much as point the nerfbat at MLs and freezers half the fanbase comes down with a fever.

Autocannons are complimentary weapons, not bracketing weapons and for most people, bracketing is the easier loadout planning to understand. it is what it is.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #76 on: 12 September 2019, 10:07:15 »
LRM-15 VS AC/5

LRM-15:
7 tons+5heat sinks+2 ammo. 14 tons.
Average 8 damage, 2 clusters
Range: 6 in the minimum band, 1 in the ideal band, 7 in the medium band

ac/5:
8 tons + 1 heat sink + 1 ammo. 10 tons
5 damage
Range: 3 in the minimum band, 3 in the ideal band, 6 in the medium band.


Don't make me laugh, they're comparable. Not if you haven't filled the engine mounted heat sinks, but after?
Not only is the AC/5 hardly comparable in this scenario, you're using the wrong damage values for the LRM-15.

The -15 column doesn't have a number lower than 9 at die roll 5+, there's no possible way that the average is a mere 8.  Indeed, deriving the actual damage values based on the cluster hit table 15 column and the frequency of a 2D6 distribution provides the following (actual) values for the LRM-15:

Average: 9.5 damage, ~2.19444 Clusters

You underestimated the LRM-15's damage output by nearly 20%, and underestimated the average number of clusters by nearly 10%.

Not only that, in this scenario you gave 2 tons of ammo to the LRM-15 and only 1 to the AC/5.  The LRM-15 has enough ammunition to deal 152 points and 35 clusters on average, while the AC/5 only does 100 points and 20 clusters.

A 40% weight increase for the bonuses of a longer long-range bracket gets you more than double the clusters and crit-seeking, nearly double the damage, slightly longer range brackets, IDF capabilities, more overall "bang" in your magazines, and options for very useful alternative LRM ammo.  For just an extra ton or two, one can make use of the LRM's extra heat sinks to mount medium lasers in a "bracket-fire" scheme to cover the LRM's minimum ranges, which results in more damage overall at both short and long ranges than an equivalent weight of AC/5s.

This is not what "competitive" looks like.

And you really should have compared the LRM-10 to the AC/5, not the LRM-15.  Their tonnages/crits are more comparable.  (Spoiler alert: The LRM wins)

Zeus 6S VS Zeus 6T. Despite having the ac/5, the -6S has a higher BPV - and deserves it.

I'll take three guns I can use consistently over two with a third that'll overheat me, even if one of the guns deals more damage.

THAT is the AC/5 done right, perhaps for the only time in in TRO:3025.

Uh, BPV... I assume you're talking about BV?

Because that's just factually incorrect.  The 6T has a BV of 1436.  The 6S has a BV of 1348.

The 6S is somewhat unique in that its use of the AC/5 is merely mediocre compared to the alternative variant instead of awful.  But that's more due to a less-than-stellar application of the PPC on the 6T than anything intrinsic to the autocannon.

AC/2 is a bad choice for the arguement, although even there I'll point out the wider ideal range band it has over LRMs.

Try comparing the ac/10 and large laser. If engine heat sinks are filled, you pay basically 3 tons for 2 more damage, including the possibility of going internal on a head hit. Same ballpark.

ac/5 VS PPC? 10 tons for five damage or 17 for 10. The ac is less efficient and less effective, but if all you have is 10 tons, it's still a solid medium range gun in introtech.

Take the mech [here, which I call the GriffinHawk. PPC and AC/5. I pretty much guarantee it'll smack around a normal griffin, just because the range bands on both weapons match.


Your custom Griffinhawk would have been far better served removing the AC/5 for heat sinks and armor, and perhaps a medium laser or three.  In fact, the "Sparky" Griffin is basically what you get if you do that and would easily wipe the floor with that Griffinhawk.

Sockmonkey

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #77 on: 12 September 2019, 10:24:20 »
I've said this a dozen times. Just let regular ACs double tap without penalty. It's the least complicated fix.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #78 on: 12 September 2019, 10:50:10 »
If my limited knowledge of the original "Battledroids" game is correct, heat was originally built for each hex moved above walking speed, so running with 10 heat sinks could potentially chew up half of your heat dissipation even before you fired a shot.  With those rules, any weapon that does trivial amounts of heat is competitive, and the badly under-gunned 'Mechs with AC/5s make a lot more sense, because you can't safely use all of those lasers and PPCs if you're moving at anything over a walk.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #79 on: 12 September 2019, 11:06:19 »
I've said this a dozen times. Just let regular ACs double tap without penalty. It's the least complicated fix.
Except that inflates the BV of units with these already-overweight weapons.

AC/5: 70 BV, 9 BV per ton of ammo
AC/5 (2 shots): 100 BV, 13 BV per ton of ammo
AC/5 (1 shot @ 7 damage): 98 BV, 13 BV per ton of ammo

Edit: Now that I think on this... Jamming has never had a BV effect. This is a good opportunity for it to actually do so. Maybe jamming on a 2 is a good way to give the standard AC value.
« Last Edit: 13 September 2019, 11:09:07 by TigerShark »
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Greatclub

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #80 on: 12 September 2019, 12:05:55 »
Not only is the AC/5 hardly comparable in this scenario, you're using the wrong damage values for the LRM-15.

The -15 column doesn't have a number lower than 9 at die roll 5+, there's no possible way that the average is a mere 8.  Indeed, deriving the actual damage values based on the cluster hit table 15 column and the frequency of a 2D6 distribution provides the following (actual) values for the LRM-15:

Average: 9.5 damage, ~2.19444 Clusters

You underestimated the LRM-15's damage output by nearly 20%, and underestimated the average number of clusters by nearly 10%.

Not only that, in this scenario you gave 2 tons of ammo to the LRM-15 and only 1 to the AC/5.  The LRM-15 has enough ammunition to deal 152 points and 35 clusters on average, while the AC/5 only does 100 points and 20 clusters.

A 40% weight increase for the bonuses of a longer long-range bracket gets you more than double the clusters and crit-seeking, nearly double the damage, slightly longer range brackets, IDF capabilities, more overall "bang" in your magazines, and options for very useful alternative LRM ammo.  For just an extra ton or two, one can make use of the LRM's extra heat sinks to mount medium lasers in a "bracket-fire" scheme to cover the LRM's minimum ranges, which results in more damage overall at both short and long ranges than an equivalent weight of AC/5s.

This is not what "competitive" looks like.
[

And you really should have compared the LRM-10 to the AC/5, not the LRM-15.  Their tonnages/crits are more comparable.  (Spoiler alert: The LRM wins)

Uh, BPV... I assume you're talking about BV?

Because that's just factually incorrect.  The 6T has a BV of 1436.  The 6S has a BV of 1348.

The 6S is somewhat unique in that its use of the AC/5 is merely mediocre compared to the alternative variant instead of awful.  But that's more due to a less-than-stellar application of the PPC on the 6T than anything intrinsic to the autocannon.

Your custom Griffinhawk would have been far better served removing the AC/5 for heat sinks and armor, and perhaps a medium laser or three.  In fact, the "Sparky" Griffin is basically what you get if you do that and would easily wipe the floor with that Griffinhawk.

arguing when tired, bleh.

I can't argue that autocanons done wrong are the biggest wastes of potential in mech construction. (Looking at you, shadowhawk, dragon and hermes ii) Comparing it to the medium laser, however, is apples and oranges; the most effective-for-tonnage introtech short range weapon VS a below average (Never tried to deny it) medium/long range weapon? EVERYTHING sucks compared to the medium laser in sheer damage potential.

However, let me revise an earlier phrase. AC/5 are comparable to LRM10/15 if you've already bought a PPC or LL.. Still a below par, but comparable. A GriffinHawk will trash a -1N griffin four times out of five in a straight fight. The fact that the Sparky will destroy both is a separate argument.

« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 12:40:50 by Greatclub »

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #81 on: 12 September 2019, 12:43:31 »
I can't argue that autocanons done wrong are the biggest wastes of potential in mech construction. (Looking at you, shadowhawk and hermes ii) Comparing it to the medium laser, however, is apples and oranges; the most effective-for-tonnage introtech short range weapon VS a below average (Never tried to deny it) medium/long range weapon? EVERYTHING sucks compared to the medium laser in sheer damage potential.
I did not compare the AC/5 to a medium laser, I compared it to the LRM.  I added the medium laser tidbit in case you wanted to argue about the LRM's minimum range, since it's an extremely simple affair to just dedicate a few tons to medium laser and "borrowing" your LRM's heat sinks for CQC.

The problem is not that an autocannon is a waste of tonnage when done wrong.  The problem is that an autocannon is a waste of tonnage when done right.

However, let me revise an earlier phrase. AC/5 are comparable to LRM10/15 if you've already bought a PPC.. Still a below par, but comparable. A GriffinHawk will trash a -1N griffin four times out of five in a straight fight. The fact that the Sparky will destroy both is a separate argument.
Again, no.  The -1N may have issues but it can at least fire its PPC constantly while running.  Your Griffinhawk is also undersinked and has to fire its PPC while standing still to remain heat-neutral, and loses heat neutrality if it fires the AC/5, which means it eventually has to have a firing pattern something like PPC+AC/AC/PPC+AC if it's doing any serious maneuvering like running and jumping... which is the same average damage as the Griffin 1N only using its PPC.

But the Griffin 1N also has the ability to take advantage the LRM's slightly longer range brackets to get better to-hit numbers over the Griffinhawk when it wins initiative, and can use the firing pattern PPC+LRM/LRM/PPC+LRM/LRM to pump out slightly more damage on average except at short range, or it can just with-hold the LRM for still very solid output.  The Griffin 1N thus has the edge at long to medium ranges and is only very slightly disadvantaged at short ranges.  That's hardly "trashing", and the -1N is a better team player for a formation due to LRM indirect fire and alternative ammunition.

So they end up about the same.  If the Griffin 1N were to swap one ton of ammo for just 1 heat sink, the 1N gains a decisive edge over the Griffinhawk.

Your custom really doesn't make the point you think it makes.

Greatclub

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #82 on: 12 September 2019, 13:06:24 »
Grab a friend who isn't afraid to run a bit hot and try the two of them. I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised. I know I was twenty years ago when I made the same arguments you're making now.

The GriffinHawk is not my design.

edit - The AC/5 isn't as good as LRMs. It's 70-80% as good if you have to buy heat sinks, and far less than that if you're still in your engine-included budget. It should never be considered anything other than a secondary weapon, and it complements a PPC better than LRMs do. That's the difference.
« Last Edit: 12 September 2019, 13:22:37 by Greatclub »

Retry

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #83 on: 12 September 2019, 15:24:33 »
Grab a friend who isn't afraid to run a bit hot and try the two of them. I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised. I know I was twenty years ago when I made the same arguments you're making now.
Sure, if there ends up being spare time, but there's usually better things to do than rediscover that the AC/5 is bad.

Quote
edit - The AC/5 isn't as good as LRMs. It's 70-80% as good if you have to buy heat sinks, and far less than that if you're still in your engine-included budget. It should never be considered anything other than a secondary weapon, and it complements a PPC better than LRMs do. That's the difference.

LRMs are roughly capable of complementing PPCs.  HOP-4B, HGN-733P both come to mind.  The LRM at least brings something that the PPC cannot: IDF and alternative munitions.

The AC/5 doesn't complement the PPC.  It's functionally supplementary: Same range brackets at lower damages and efficiencies.  It doesn't cover anything that the PPC does until you get to an era where alternative munitions are available (other than exploding), after which it's still effectively replaced by other autocannons.

What does complement the PPC is the SRM and ML, which covers the short range brackets that the PPC can't efficiently cover.

sadlerbw

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #84 on: 12 September 2019, 15:47:14 »
Going WAAAAAY back to the OP: Yes, I would tweak the original autocannons, but not necessarily all of them. Why would I tweak them? Because, in their original tech level, they aren't well balanced enough. I really don't care that they are worse than the newer tech items. I'm OK with older weapons becoming obsolete once newer tech comes out, so I don't really mind if they fall behind once DHS and other tech comes out. I care that when you are comparing them to introtech lasers and LRM's, the balance feels off. One of the appeals to 3025 is the simplicity and fairly tight balance of mechs in that era. Unfortunately some of the AC's, the 2 and 5, are already behind the curve. We can dig through history to figure out why, but the bottom line is that with the rules we have today, I feel the smaller AC's aren't good enough compared to the other weapons available in their era. It isn't any one thing that makes them worse, but the combination of being a bit off in multiple areas adding up. Luckily, they don't feel so far off that they need a total re-imagining to bring them back in line. I'm pretty sure that making one or two improvements could bring them back in line wihtout becoming overpowered.

I personally would not change the weight or crit slot requirements of the AC's. While those COULD be used to tweak these weapons, they are more of a pain to mess with thanks to the years and years of record sheets that would be invalidated. For similar reasons, I wouldn't mess with the heat, range, or damage values. Not having to invalidate recordsheets has enough value that I'd accept a less optimal buff if it meant leaving the recordsheets alone. Besides, there are still other dials that could be adjusted.

What would I look at changing? to-hit modifiers, rapid-fire options, or reducing the effects of ammo explosions. So, maybe give the AC/2 a -2 to-hit and the AC/5 a -1. Maybe force the player to spend two shots to get the to-hit bonus? You could also just use the ultra rules but raise the target number for jamming so it is more likely. Lastly, we could leave all that alone and lower the ammo explosion damage so it isn't such an insta-kill for so many mechs. It wouldn't be as much of a buff as changing weight or damage, but introtech AC's may not NEED a big buff. I'm not trying to make AC's better than any weapon they are worse than now, just to reduce the gap a bit.

Fear Factory

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #85 on: 12 September 2019, 18:01:36 »
FYI, the Clint is another good use of the AC/5...

But meh. The big thing for me, since this is the introductory level, is keeping it simple. Either increasing the damage (3/7/11/22) or (4/8/12/24), OR giving them a simple mechanic that makes them operate different than lasers and LRM's (+2 damage when you roll above the to-hit/target number), is IMO the best.
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dgorsman

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #86 on: 12 September 2019, 18:14:14 »
Class 10 is debatable, 20 doesn't need any change to damage.
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Retry

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #87 on: 12 September 2019, 18:17:47 »
FYI, the Clint is another good use of the AC/5...
The CLNT-2-3T?  Both woefully under-armored and under-gunned.  Replacing that with a PPC + 1 heat sink + 1 medium laser, or a Large Laser, a few heat sinks, and armor would serve it better.

Fear Factory

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #88 on: 12 September 2019, 18:58:07 »
The CLNT-2-3T?  Both woefully under-armored and under-gunned.  Replacing that with a PPC + 1 heat sink + 1 medium laser, or a Large Laser, a few heat sinks, and armor would serve it better.

I stand by what I said.
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

Wolf72

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #89 on: 12 September 2019, 19:32:56 »

Autocannons have a +2 damage bonus if they roll above the TN (if you roll a 7 and need a 6 to hit, AC5 does 7 damage)

With this, you're not changing any stats, but they actually feel like a different type of weapon.

almost like your 2-3 round burst all nailed the target you were aiming at.
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