Author Topic: Why Tweak the Autocannon?  (Read 58367 times)

monbvol

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #150 on: 21 September 2019, 15:15:24 »
I did not see that you proposed a diet for ACs as well.

If you did not it doesn't solve the fundamental problem I'd have to sacrifice something the Valkyrie can't sacrifice without the benefit of advanced tech.

Fear Factory

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #151 on: 21 September 2019, 15:24:06 »
I did not see that you proposed a diet for ACs as well.

If you did not it doesn't solve the fundamental problem I'd have to sacrifice something the Valkyrie can't sacrifice without the benefit of advanced tech.

You could fit it. AC/2 and Medium Laser. Just remove the LRM10 and 1 Heat Sink.
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monbvol

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #152 on: 21 September 2019, 15:35:20 »
How'd I forget the Valkyrie has a spare heat sink?

So I chose poorly.

Okay then Hornet 151.  If I can replace that LRM-5 with an AC without advanced tech or sacrificing something the 151 can't afford to sacrifice then I'll be happy.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #153 on: 21 September 2019, 16:10:00 »
How'd I forget the Valkyrie has a spare heat sink?

So I chose poorly.

Okay then Hornet 151.  If I can replace that LRM-5 with an AC without advanced tech or sacrificing something the 151 can't afford to sacrifice then I'll be happy.
That's a tall order.  You'd need an AC that weighs only 2 tons for that.

Maingunnery

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #154 on: 21 September 2019, 16:16:13 »

If I wanted an AC system to complete with current energy weapons I would really look towards making them a lot lighter, and allowing all special ammo types.
Maybe basing them navel AC tech so the rounds don't need to carry their own propellant.

Some like
XAC-5, 3 tons, 8/16/24 range, 40 shots/ton ammo
XAC-10, 6 tons, 6/12/18 range, 20 shots/ton ammo
XAC-20, 9 tons, 4/8/12 range, 10 shots/ton ammo
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monbvol

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #155 on: 21 September 2019, 17:01:49 »
That's a tall order.  You'd need an AC that weighs only 2 tons for that.

And if I'm honest that is where I think the AC-2 needs to go these days.  That way it becomes an interesting choice.

AC-2 has a little more reach, more consistent damage, is cheaper, and if you double tap it still isn't overpowering in that dynamic.

Similarly the LRM-5 has indirect fire, slightly more versatile ammunition options, and better damage on average.

Still thinking about where the AC-5 would need to drop to in weight/crits without it being too much but still an interesting choice.

AC-10 and AC-20 by fact of the kind of concentrated damage they do are already pretty close but I'd still put both on a diet if it were up to me and to be fair I don't think you could drop much from them without it being overpowering.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #156 on: 21 September 2019, 18:47:29 »
And if I'm honest that is where I think the AC-2 needs to go these days.  That way it becomes an interesting choice.

AC-2 has a little more reach, more consistent damage, is cheaper, and if you double tap it still isn't overpowering in that dynamic.

Similarly the LRM-5 has indirect fire, slightly more versatile ammunition options, and better damage on average.

Still thinking about where the AC-5 would need to drop to in weight/crits without it being too much but still an interesting choice.

AC-10 and AC-20 by fact of the kind of concentrated damage they do are already pretty close but I'd still put both on a diet if it were up to me and to be fair I don't think you could drop much from them without it being overpowering.
Well, the AC/2 actually has a higher capital cost than the LRM-5 (75,000 vs 30,000).  But sure, it'd become an interesting choice, to say the least.  A Vanquisher with a 10x AC/2 pack in each arm would be hilarious.  You sure couldn't implement 0 heat for the AC/2 and rid the min range at only 2 tons though, that'd be too much.

Are you thinking about other ACs or just the vanilla version?  At 2 tons, the regular AC/2 would likely be a very strong competitor even against higher tech stuff, but with the upgrades on the LB-X and UAC upgrades, things can get ridiculously lopsided for the -2 if it stays at 2 tons.  2 tons also doesn't give a whole lot of room for the LAC2 and PAC2, so you need to consider what their upgrade path would be or just shoo them away entirely.

I'd hate to be the poor bloke that has to remake all the designs for every AC-toting unit though.

If you're going the weight route, the AC/10 and AC/20 do have to be lightened.  At 2 tons per pop, I'd go with 5x AC/2s over an AC/10 90% of the time (and the other 10% I'd sub it with lasers + heat sinks), for the range advantage, accuracy advantage, and 5x the hits leading to 5x the chance for TACs and head hits.  Concentrated damage can be useful but it's honestly overrated, and a 10-point hit just isn't that big.

The AC/20 is scary in that it's certainly effective with its 20-point bowling ball, but it's certainly not efficient: A battery of medium lasers for the same weight generally ends up similar or even better while being much cheaper (to the surprise of no one).  It can easily lose several tons without becoming overpowering, though not 2/3rds of its weight like you did with the AC/2.

Honestly, I think snapping off a few of the AC's crutches and giving it something extra (like FF's +2 on MoS or my modified Rapid-Fire AC idea) is a better approach than dropping weight across the board.  There's less change to the designs itself so you don't have to modify them as much or at all, and you can introduce a new Autocannon line (like improved PACs or LACs) to fit the niche of "lightweight AC".  But I'm a bit biased since I have a home-brew weapon concept (iPAC), and a 2-ton AC/2 would definitely step on its toes.

monbvol

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #157 on: 21 September 2019, 19:28:38 »
I'd probably solve a lot of those problems by culling the equipment list a bit.

AC-2s at 2 tons would be viable as Protomech weapons.  Thus removing the need for the PACs for the most part.

LACs would likewise be redundant.

LBs and UACs would indeed need some thought applied to be sure.

All in all I have done a fair amount of testing where the ACs did go on a diet. -2 tons and -1 crit to a minimum of 1.  Ammunition counts adjusted to give the same 120 maximum damage per ton.  It actually worked really well and I could actually accept that as a new generation of ACs that completely obsolete the old ACs.

TigerShark

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #158 on: 21 September 2019, 20:05:46 »
IMO, this is one of those things that needs to go into a "BattleTech: Reloaded". There were a lot of nonsense things that carried over purely because they existed in Battledroids. Or because they were afraid to revise/retcon them and upset the fans.

A lot about the mechanics, weight/damage/heat issues of certain weapons, Clan tech, etc. could be fixed with a brand new edition. Something that takes 30 years of lessons and tosses out the rubbish.
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #159 on: 21 September 2019, 20:59:40 »
If I wanted an AC system to complete with current energy weapons I would really look towards making them a lot lighter, and allowing all special ammo types.
Maybe basing them navel AC tech so the rounds don't need to carry their own propellant.

Some like
XAC-5, 3 tons, 8/16/24 range, 40 shots/ton ammo
XAC-10, 6 tons, 6/12/18 range, 20 shots/ton ammo
XAC-20, 9 tons, 4/8/12 range, 10 shots/ton ammo

I like the ranges and the weights, but I would actually go the other way with the ammo.  Look at how much ammo weights for something like the A 10. 

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #160 on: 21 September 2019, 21:03:14 »
If I wanted an AC system to complete with current energy weapons I would really look towards making them a lot lighter, and allowing all special ammo types.
Maybe basing them navel AC tech so the rounds don't need to carry their own propellant.

Some like
XAC-5, 3 tons, 8/16/24 range, 40 shots/ton ammo
XAC-10, 6 tons, 6/12/18 range, 20 shots/ton ammo
XAC-20, 9 tons, 4/8/12 range, 10 shots/ton ammo
Your XAC-5 makes the XAC-10 functionally obsolete: Same net damage (on a per-ton basis) for better range.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2019, 21:05:13 by Retry »

CrossfirePilot

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #161 on: 21 September 2019, 21:08:53 »
I still think the easiest way to fix this is to invent a time machine and get the original designers to rethink it...

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #162 on: 21 September 2019, 23:32:30 »
I'd probably solve a lot of those problems by culling the equipment list a bit.

AC-2s at 2 tons would be viable as Protomech weapons.  Thus removing the need for the PACs for the most part.

LACs would likewise be redundant.
I'm a bit of the opposite.  I prefer a breadth of viable equipment, so I'm not a huge fan of culling the lists (or a fan of non-viable junk cluttering the list, a la HVACs).  I generally prefer to see a larger list of things, such as adding ER or snub-nose variants to the LPPC or HPPC, ER Blazer Cannons and whatnot.  Or just making existing equipment more useful, like vehicle grenade launchers or OS missile launchers, or the various RISC gear.  Part of the reason I find Aerospace less compelling than Mechs is that the capital weapon selection is so limited.

monbvol

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #163 on: 22 September 2019, 00:11:42 »
I will say to an extent I sort of actually agree, it is just that parts can certainly be culled and others expanded.

LACs, PACs, and HVACs for instance could all go away.

While I certainly agree that the lack of options to do more interesting builds of mechs in certain eras and the large aerospace side of things certainly could be addressed by adding more options.

Apocal

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #164 on: 22 September 2019, 02:14:59 »
Your XAC-5 makes the XAC-10 functionally obsolete: Same net damage (on a per-ton basis) for better range.

Looking at it by ton instead of by round makes all the lighter autocannons competitive with their larger siblings, since all of them come out to 200 damage per ton in the example Maingunnery gave.

Seriously, are 20+ round games common?

Maingunnery

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #165 on: 22 September 2019, 04:25:35 »
Your XAC-5 makes the XAC-10 functionally obsolete: Same net damage (on a per-ton basis) for better range.
I was thinking of giving the XAC-10 an advantage in heat and crits, would that be enough?
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Daryk

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #166 on: 22 September 2019, 06:22:13 »
*snip*
Seriously, are 20+ round games common?
The groups I've been playing with have been steadily gaining proficiency, and will probably get there on a regular basis in the next year.  Distractions still happen, but it's getting easier and easier to maintain momentum.

TigerShark

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #167 on: 22 September 2019, 10:28:08 »
Looking at it by ton instead of by round makes all the lighter autocannons competitive with their larger siblings, since all of them come out to 200 damage per ton in the example Maingunnery gave.

Seriously, are 20+ round games common?
I've seen that and more. Usually fielding anywhere from 6 - 20 units per side.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #168 on: 22 September 2019, 11:15:32 »
Looking at it by ton instead of by round makes all the lighter autocannons competitive with their larger siblings, since all of them come out to 200 damage per ton in the example Maingunnery gave.

Seriously, are 20+ round games common?
Not per ton of ammo, per ton of weapon system.
2 XAC/5s (+ 1 ton ammo) weighs the same as 1 XAC/10 (+1 ton ammo), but they deal the same damage (per-turn) on average: 2 5-pt hits for the XAC/5 and 1 10-point hit for the XAC/10, but the -5 has more range.

20+ rounds, not so common with quick pickup games on a small map, Lance vs Lance.  You can get there pretty quick with larger maps and company or larger-sized formations, especially if you're doing a scenario with objectives and not just a deathmatch.

I was thinking of giving the XAC-10 an advantage in heat and crits, would that be enough?
Probably?  Depends how hot the XAC-5 would be to begin with.  I don't think either would mean much conventional vehicles though.

(Of course I already have an idea of what the Autocannons "should" look like and have (... had...) an entire thread on it.  Chances are I'll mildly criticize any autocannon change suggestion for not being my suggestion.)

Daryk

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #169 on: 22 September 2019, 11:29:53 »
Not per ton of ammo, per ton of weapon system.
*snip*
20+ rounds, not so common with quick pickup games on a small map, Lance vs Lance.  You can get there pretty quick with larger maps and company or larger-sized formations, especially if you're doing a scenario with objectives and not just a deathmatch.
*snip*
Exactly this.  In the game we just played yesterday, our Archer was never even shot at, and was into its fourth ton of ammo (fortunately, it had five).

Maingunnery

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #170 on: 22 September 2019, 13:04:42 »
Probably?  Depends how hot the XAC-5 would be to begin with.  I don't think either would mean much conventional vehicles though.

(Of course I already have an idea of what the Autocannons "should" look like and have (... had...) an entire thread on it.  Chances are I'll mildly criticize any autocannon change suggestion for not being my suggestion.)
Oke what about this update?

WeaponTonsHeatCritsRangeAmmo
XAC-54238/16/2440
XAC-107346/12/1820
XAC-2010454/8/1210


My main idea was to balance a pair of XAC-20 out with a pair of cERPPCs+Cap.
2x XAC-20 + 4 ammo = 24 tons
2x cERPPCs+Cap +0+20 DHS (0 = free engine DHS) = 24 tons
Similar damage but one option has range and the other is more compact.
 
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #171 on: 22 September 2019, 17:00:37 »
Oke what about this update?

WeaponTonsHeatCritsRangeAmmo
XAC-54238/16/2440
XAC-107346/12/1820
XAC-2010454/8/1210


My main idea was to balance a pair of XAC-20 out with a pair of cERPPCs+Cap.
2x XAC-20 + 4 ammo = 24 tons
2x cERPPCs+Cap +0+20 DHS (0 = free engine DHS) = 24 tons
Similar damage but one option has range and the other is more compact.
That's better.  XAC-5 still has a slight edge on the XAC-10, I think.

The XAC-20 balancing thing is an interesting idea.  Doesn't the Capacitor have to charge before firing the extra powerful shot though?

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #172 on: 22 September 2019, 17:01:52 »
It does, yes.  I think 12 tons is just fine for the AC/20.

Maingunnery

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #173 on: 22 September 2019, 17:40:42 »
That's better.  XAC-5 still has a slight edge on the XAC-10, I think.
personally I would prefer to use the XAC-10 for the damage concentration.

Quote
The XAC-20 balancing thing is an interesting idea.  Doesn't the Capacitor have to charge before firing the extra powerful shot though?
Yes it does, but it is also ammo independent and breaking LOS for charging isn't that hard most of the time, so that balances those factors out.
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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #174 on: 23 September 2019, 17:37:00 »
Yes it does, but it is also ammo independent and breaking LOS for charging isn't that hard most of the time, so that balances those factors out.
I agree somewhat for a fast jumper, but not so much for a big Assault 'Mech.  Personally I've felt that the Capacitor is one of those "meh" equipment that you add for flavor rather than for effectiveness on the field.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #175 on: 23 September 2019, 17:40:16 »
I'd call the first shots being 20 points a little more than "meh".  Sure, you don't have to use them the rest of the game, but that extra 5 points of damage up front can be terrifying.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #176 on: 23 September 2019, 18:21:20 »
I'd call the first shots being 20 points a little more than "meh".  Sure, you don't have to use them the rest of the game, but that extra 5 points of damage up front can be terrifying.
Well, first shot.  For a Clan PPC or a Heavy PPC, but those already have 15-point hits without it that can fire every turn, not far behind (and also head-capping).  Plus the heat issues, and having a bigger "target" in crits to lose your PPC to incoming fire.

Sure, you don't have to use it for the rest of the game, but 150k C-Bills (and the BV increase) is a tad expensive if you use it as a one-shot weapon.

Daryk

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #177 on: 23 September 2019, 18:28:23 »
You can also charge it up any time your opponent denies you LOS.  That will discourage that behavior, and is totally worth the cost.

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #178 on: 23 September 2019, 18:45:19 »
You can also charge it up any time your opponent denies you LOS.  That will discourage that behavior, and is totally worth the cost.
It's a bit hard to be totally deprived of LOS except in very broken terrain and in cities.  And in cities, I prefer other weapons, so I never find the Capacitor useful.

Daryk

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Re: Why Tweak the Autocannon?
« Reply #179 on: 23 September 2019, 18:46:47 »
If they all have jump jets, it's not hard at all.

 

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