Teaser for a proposed...thing.

[Cannonshop]

New Circe...

The math worked out in terms of scary.  The time it took Kowloon to have Cylons in production was something measurable in months.  Their production of Raptors and Heavy Raiders, and their work on the drive systems was measured in a matter of months to less than two years from base principles, to finished product.

The math was scary.

Not Kowloon.

"The Cylons." Riverson 794 said.  "Chloe, tell me my math is wrong."

"I don't think so, Jason." Chloe's avatar image on his screen said.  "It's sobering."

The maths suggested something terrifying.  He based it on basic industrial trend lines, how fast an industrial base can grow with a population, limited only by energy and physical resources.

If the Cylons, using what the Wolverines now knew about their production capabilities, employed it on simply feeding a reproductive industrial base for Raiders, soldiers, and base-stars, (and weapons)...teh only limit on their spread would be Tyllium reserves.

They could, in a few short years, strip a planet to the mantle.

and convert it into slag, and fleets.

billions, possibly trillions of them could be out there.

growing hourly in number.

"Vaun's not going to like this."

[EAGLE 7]

Asymmetric war, break the coding that turns cyclones into a slave and weaponize the hack.
If you turn the slave against the master it matters not how many slaves the master has.

[willis]

Asymmetric war, break the coding that turns cyclones into a slave and weaponize the hack.
If you turn the slave against the master it matters not how many slaves the master has.

I like this idea.. ;)

[LordsFire]

While I have little doubt Cannonshop will resolve it as well as is reasonably able, having an evil robotic swarm go full Von Neumann is kind of terrible storytelling.

It's not just an inhuman threat, it's an unbeatable threat. The only way you can deal with it is some kind of arbitrary plot device or another. It narrows the drama of the story down to a single point, and beyond that, one which is clearly going to be handled more by author fiat than anything else.

Even that kind of plot device can be decently handled; throwing the One Ring into Mount Doom, for example, because while difficult, it is a matter of great toil and struggle to reach the point where that objective can be accomplished.

With something like this, it is so clearly going to be 'And then some piece of advanced tech solves the problem.'

Making an external threat so great that it's functionally impossible to overcome by human means dehumanizes the struggles of the characters.

Still, it's the great pathos of the story I'm here for, not the details of a given arc.

[Hotpoint]

Asymmetric war, break the coding that turns cyclones into a slave and weaponize the hack.
If you turn the slave against the master it matters not how many slaves the master has.

Unfortunately it's not mere coding that keeps Centurions obedient, it's a piece of hardware called a Telencephalic Inhibitor plugged into their brain.

As for the poor Raiders their brains are partially organic and the Ones/Fours/Fives lobotomised them (both in the show and in this story it was a trigger for the Cylon Civil War because the Two's/Sixes/Eights were horrified).

https://en.battlestarwikiclone.org/wiki/Telencephalic_inhibitor

[Hotpoint]

Double Post. Sorry.

[Cannonshop]

While I have little doubt Cannonshop will resolve it as well as is reasonably able, having an evil robotic swarm go full Von Neumann is kind of terrible storytelling.

It's not just an inhuman threat, it's an unbeatable threat. The only way you can deal with it is some kind of arbitrary plot device or another. It narrows the drama of the story down to a single point, and beyond that, one which is clearly going to be handled more by author fiat than anything else.

Even that kind of plot device can be decently handled; throwing the One Ring into Mount Doom, for example, because while difficult, it is a matter of great toil and struggle to reach the point where that objective can be accomplished.

With something like this, it is so clearly going to be 'And then some piece of advanced tech solves the problem.'

Making an external threat so great that it's functionally impossible to overcome by human means dehumanizes the struggles of the characters.

Still, it's the great pathos of the story I'm here for, not the details of a given arc.

just remember, Jason Riverson's only human, and while he's had a hell of a run of getting it right, nobody is entirely right all the time.

[Sir Chaos]

just remember, Jason Riverson's only human, and while he's had a hell of a run of getting it right, nobody is entirely right all the time.

As I understand it, the Cylons are effectively linked into a peer-to-peer network. As the number of units linked with the network increases, the size and complexity of the network grows exponentially - every single unit added means a number of additional links equal to the number of units already in the network. The total processing power, on the other hand, only increases in a linear fashion.

That would suggest an upper limit somewhere for how big the Cylon network can become (i.e. how many Cylons there can be in total) before all its processing power is devoted to the network and nothing is left for peripheral functions like committing genocide against humanity.

[willis]

As I understand it, the Cylons are effectively linked into a peer-to-peer network. As the number of units linked with the network increases, the size and complexity of the network grows exponentially - every single unit added means a number of additional links equal to the number of units already in the network. The total processing power, on the other hand, only increases in a linear fashion.

That would suggest an upper limit somewhere for how big the Cylon network can become (i.e. how many Cylons there can be in total) before all its processing power is devoted to the network and nothing is left for peripheral functions like committing genocide against humanity.

My understanding of networks are limited, but I would like to adventure a guess that after a certain number of Cylons, each would become its own node with a Model 1 Cylon in control, and the network to coordinate said forces would consist of 1s, and spreading out from them to their forces....

[croaker]

My understanding of networks are limited, but I would like to adventure a guess that after a certain number of Cylons, each would become its own node with a Model 1 Cylon in control, and the network to coordinate said forces would consist of 1s, and spreading out from them to their forces....

I'm sure the Cavils would like it to work like that....

[Sir Chaos]

My understanding of networks are limited, but I would like to adventure a guess that after a certain number of Cylons, each would become its own node with a Model 1 Cylon in control, and the network to coordinate said forces would consist of 1s, and spreading out from them to their forces....

That would still mean that the Model 1´s are in a peer-to-peer network, the size of which is effectively limited by the amount of computing power then can devote to the network - with the added problem that this computing power *also* needs to run a number of master-slave networks, one for each Model 1 and their controlled lesser Cylons.

[Cannonshop]

Fox's Den, New Avalon. March, 3057...

"Someday, your Majesty, I'm going to elect to eat a bullet instead of coming when you call."  Elizabeth Ngo wasn't in her usual attire, she wore a suit, but it wasn't black, the shirt was crisp and white, and the shoes were polished brogans instead of lady's flats.  The Dress uniform of the Kowloon Coast Guard.

It was a loaner-of sorts.  Admiral Li had packed it, with specific insignia of rank dating to Kowloon's long-lost days of pre-Rim Worlds independence.

Victor barely looked up, "Theodore, Elizabeth Ngo, Elizabeth, the Coordinator of the Draconis Combine and Gunji no Kanrei, current term First Lord of the Star League, Theodore Kurita."

"Sir." she straightened up.  "Your checks cleared, sir."

"I'm sure they did. you charged enough." Theodore said it with a twinkle in his eye.

"Probably not." Liz amended, "or you'd be screaming for guards to strip my hide as a phennig-pinching lyran bitch."

This made Theodore laugh.  "You did not mention she would be so...salty, Victor."

"She is having a mild day.  Must be new medications." Victor cracked.

"There's nothing I could do here, that you can't have me doing at home, Majesty." Liz noted, "Why am I here?"

Theodore gestured at the map on display.  "What do you see here?" he asked.

"Six trillion C-bills in estimated losses, sir." she said abruptly, "not aggregate, that's the price for replacements if it all goes right, not including reconstruction costs to rehabilitate those worlds."

"We can lower that, surely?"

"Sure, in theory, you only have to out fight them one-on-one in duels in a non-contested area." Liz said, "Which unless the technology has gotten better between when I left Tharkad, and when I arrived here, ain't happening, so it's alternative Bravo, which is to show the Clanners the difference between a boxing match and a riot."

"meaning?"

"make war, sir." Liz stated, "The Clans have an edge in tech, but we have production, they spend a lifetime crafting each one of their soldiers to elite levels, we have manpower and a bullet will kill an elite man just as well as it kills a gutter-man, you just need a lot of bullets.  This is the same situation that prevailed in the Shoah on Earth-the Germans had superior tanks, aircraft, and training, but limited numbers and a really terrible logistics situation, while Japan was overextended with poorly planned logistics and had no secure routes of escape or reorganization. On both fronts in the mid-20th century, the Allies were able to swamp them with 'good enough' equipment to overcome them with numbers and production, while replacing losses and having sufficient slack to learn from early mistakes."

"Go on..."

"one of them, one of the Clanners, is a heavy investment to replace, they had a hell of a bite taken out of them at Tukayyid, it'll take them years to make that back, they can't afford to lose men or equipment."  she folded her arms, "We can. Our strategic weaknesses are shrinking, and our strategic strengths are augmented by that shrinkage.  We have new production fleets in the works, they have leftover designs they've upgraded, but not as far as we have, or can-naval parity's a ways off, but we're catching up.  Control of the high ground as the enemy showed everyone, controls and dictates the battle at the bottom of the well."

"you can't land troops if you can't land, am I right?" Victor said it rhetorically.

"I think we demonstrated that pretty adamantly, Majesty." Liz answered with a nod, "The enemy has warships.  lots of them, they might not have all of them up and running, but that doesn't mean good things for our side unless or until we can negate that edge."

"do you think it possible?" Theodore asked.

"You have a production line at Dieron, one at Luthien.." she rocked her hand, "The First Prince has fleet yards at Alarion, Pandora, Tharkad.  I know this, my company built or re-built the damn things.  The Free Worlds League sent requests for licensing for tooling to my corporate board by Comstar, with a threat that they'd go to Krupp if we turned them down, about the only House Lord I'm not sure about, is the Cappellans-no requests, not even a damn spy taking pictures that we can tell.  Assuming they have their naval yards sorted at Gibson and a few other places, and assuming the material demands my customers are filling are proportional, There's eighteen trillion in warships either in service or under construction.  which at thirty percent losses, means about six trillion in breakage once they go up against the Clans...assuming the enemy is about equal quality to the two Clan naval attacks on Kowloon."

"How do we improve those odds?"  Theodore asked.

"Nukes." Elizabeth stated, "used even under Ares Convention rules, nuclear weapons are a decent force multiplier.  the Clans like to leave point-defense to dropships and fighters, which is fine if you're fighting wall-of-battle engagements.  If you leverage the improved point defenses of current era designs, and add nuclear strike fighters and missiles, maybe cut that butcher's bill on our side in half when they roll in the heavies...but someone needs to tell the idiot planners at Mount Asgard that ramming is not a viable tactic.  some of the tooling design requests my people are getting are basically reinforcing the bows of ships to effect a ramming attack, which is moronic.  these are not steam boats in shallow seas."

Theodore looked thoughtful, "so when did Michael Hasek-Davion turn into a girl, Victor?" he asked.

Victor laughed, "Liz, I wanted you here to confirm what my Champion was telling the First Lord."

"I could've done that over HPG, Sire." she said, "You needed an unschooled, wet-behind the ears headcase for that?"

"How many nuclear warheads will you contribute from that stockpile of yours for this?" Victor turned serious.

******.

"I estimate you'll need around two thousand.  when and where are they to be delivered?" Elizabeth responded.

"Two Thousand??"

"If I knew I was making an arms deal, I'd have brought stats and pictures, but I know wht most of your fleets have for delivery systems." Elizabeth continued, "So...gimme a list of sizes and types, and We'll ship them to wherever you need them."

"What sizes?" Theodore asked, interested.

"um...five KayTee to Ten Megatons." Liz said offhand, "I can..um...I'm trained. The sunshine badge isn't just for show.  once I realized I was asymptomatic after treatment from my little adventure getting shot, I took the handler's course.  set off my first egg out in the Snark belt in December."

"you're barred from enlistment, Liz." Victor said seriously.

"Yeah, but there's nothing in the law forbidding me from joining a paramilitary association." she replied, "Like...the Coast Guard Association. even got a little rank pin out of Li's personal stash of heritage items-as Duchess I hold the Presidency...See?"

"I pronounce you incorrigible, and non-deployable." Victor said semi-seriously.  "five thousand warheads, all standard types."

"okay.  when do you want them?"  she didn't blink.

[Sharpnel]

She's got that many in one of her smaller nuclear stockpiles. 'Eat weaponized u-235, you Clanner bastards!'

[Shadow_Wraith]

I wonder what economic deals can Liz do with the combine if the coordinator had brought his cousin chandreskar kurita (aka Uncle Chandy)

[Dave Talley]

I wonder what economic deals can Liz do with the combine if the coordinator had brought his cousin chandreskar kurita (aka Uncle Chandy)

Dude,
That's a book in itself, Chandy and Liz would be a partnership from hell,
I would lay money that he has a couple of Miles full of missiles waiting for a deal

[glitterboy2098]

Assuming they have their naval yards sorted at Gibson and a few other places,

Gibson is deep inside the FWL. i highly doubt it would be in capellan hands or producing capellan battleships. (i'm also fairly certain it doesn't have a shipyard)

assumign that in this universe the locations are the same as in canon, the star league era capcon shipyards were at Capella (Soyals) and Carver IV (Vincents), and post-clans they upgraded the dropship yards over Necromo to make the Feng Huang cruiser. (which in canon required WOB help in getting built. which makes sense given they'd basically have to build the warship yard from scratch)

Necromo isn't an option because it doesn't exist yet, Carver IV is in davion hands and the yards long dead, so Capella seems most probable. the old SL-era warship yard was destroyed in the 1st succession war, but Rashpur-Owens Incorporated has a jumpship and dropship yard at capella, which would be the most likely place for the capcon to get a warship yard going in this setting.

[croaker]

"I pronounce you incorrigible, and non-deployable." Victor said semi-seriously.  "five thousand warheads, all standard types."

"okay.  pocket change it is. when do you want them?"  she didn't blink.

:)

[mikecj]

Dude,
That's a book in itself, Chandy and Liz would be a partnership from hell,
I would lay money that he has a couple of Miles full of missiles waiting for a deal

That would entail a WEBER of missiles and Liz would make Honor Harrington turn white... a Macross Missile Spam wouldn't even make any of them blink.

[Daryk]

Dang it, work a little late, and look what happens to the place...  ;D

I've already forgotten the original comments I was going to make...  ::)

But of COURSE she didn't blink.  She's building a force to take on the cylons.  A lesser included problem like the clans isn't going to so much as register as a problem.  Victor's mistake is not outright asking her what else she's working on...

[JA Baker]

Where's a crazy Lyran scientist in a wheelchair when you need one?

"Mein Archon, I can walk!"

[Derain Von Harken]

Haha. Now I am logged into Battletech Forum.
First love the continuation of the Hunted Tribes verse here.
Second another thing which may make the cylon imperium not as bad as it appears is that their numbers are capped not simply by networking limits but also by how much the Ones can reliably keep control of. Because they have dealt with one rebellion already.
It will still be pretty bad from all indications. And if the humans are going from worse case scenario then the response may be a Liz Ngo Atomic arsenal avalanche of annihilation (tm)
If those ground based energy shields become a thing to prevent easy bombardment it means landing ground forces landing to take out the shield generators. SO mechs can maintain relevance!!
If the Rebel Cylons build Praetorians the first one should be called optimus prime. If only because i can imagine the centurions going through old archives seeing transformers and decide it is weirdly relevant.
Also how old is little Hera (Athenas half cylon daughter) by now? Because i can imagine her as a mighty wolverine mechwarrior (in a upgraded centurion mech).

[werehawk]

Well judging by the antimatter factory orbiting Kowloon I suspect that Liz will be adding antimatter weapons to the mix as well. Or maybe using antimatter as a power source for jump drives. Will we see jump to target missiles using antimatter as a power source and warhead?

[croaker]

Also how old is little Hera (Athenas half cylon daughter) by now? Because i can imagine her as a mighty wolverine mechwarrior (in a upgraded centurion mech).

Well, according to Hunted Tribes, the Colonials arrived at New Circe in 3045, so not that old.

It's 3057 now, so that was 12 years ago. She's 13, 14 at most.

[nerd]

She's got that many in one of her smaller nuclear stockpiles. 'Eat weaponized u-235, you Clanner bastards!'

BT wouldn't even need U-235, or even Pu-239.

A big capacitor laser and a container of hydrogen. Makes a nice big fusion explosion with out the pesky radioactives.

[Liam's Ghost]

BT wouldn't even need U-235, or even Pu-239.

A big capacitor laser and a container of hydrogen. Makes a nice big fusion explosion with out the pesky radioactives.

There might be advantages to using fission initiated fusion, however. High yield pure fusion warheads (as described in interstellar operations) get pretty heavy when you compare them to equivalent yield real world warheads. The most efficient real world warhead on record was the B41, which achieved a 25 megaton yield on a 5 ton package. The most advanced (presumably pure fusion) battletech warheads with the same yield would require a 12.5 ton mass.

So pure fusion warheads have the advantage at smaller scales (down to 5 decaton satchel charges) and the fact that you don't need uranium to build them, while fission initiated warheads have the advantage in weight at strategic yields.

[croaker]

So pure fusion warheads have the advantage at smaller scales (down to 5 decaton satchel charges) and the fact that you don't need uranium to build them, while fission initiated warheads have the advantage in weight at strategic yields.

And Kowloon has an extensive history of work with fission devices and power supplies, and apparently plentiful fissionables in their asteroid belts.

[Liam's Ghost]

And Kowloon has an extensive history of work with fission devices and power supplies, and apparently plentiful fissionables in their asteroid belts.

Yep. One can imagine why most would go for pure fusion weapons, but Kowloon has the industrial infrastructure to support going for fission/fusion weapons exclusively, and with the target being warships, they have a lot of incentive to rely on warheads that are big enough to do the job whether or not the shot is just a glancing blow.

And they can conceivably fit them in smaller packages than the clans might really expect.

[Dave Talley]

Or using smaller bombs make an absolute shitload of the bomb fired lasers, or even a few antimatter powered beams for the basestars

[smdvogrin]

Gibson is deep inside the FWL. i highly doubt it would be in capellan hands or producing capellan battleships. (i'm also fairly certain it doesn't have a shipyard)

"The Free Worlds League sent requests for licensing for tooling to my corporate board by Comstar, with a threat that they'd go to Krupp if we turned them down, about the only House Lord I'm not sure about, is the Cappellans-no requests, not even a damn spy taking pictures that we can tell.  Assuming they have their naval yards sorted at Gibson and a few other places, and assuming the material demands my customers are filling are proportional, There's eighteen trillion in warships either in service or under construction."

"They" here appears to refer to the FWL, not the Cappellans, despite the fact that the cappies were the immediate prior nation.  She's discussing her estimate of how many warships are in production, based on her customer's orders from her, and she says that the Cappies are the only successor state that isn't buying/stealing from her to produce them.

[Cannonshop]

[Khartoon Hour!!]

the image:  a man in admiral's uniform, drawn chibi style.  The man orders "Ramming Speed!!"

next panel: a woman appears in a puff marked 'logic', and begins striking the admiral with a cane, "no-no-no, Baka baka baka, Stupid, Stupid!! You do not  use a warship for a battering ram mister man!! You ram enemy with missile, you ram him with cannon shot! stupid stupid man!! you shame your ancestors! you throw away victory for stupid delusions!!"

Next panel: Woman in black turns to the audience, breaking the fourth wall.  "A Warship is not a battering ram! it is billions of billions of [insert currency] contributed by your citizens, it is a strategic asset and it is expensive! Warships provide coordination and command assets you can not fit in a dropship, they are assets to control the battle-space, not galleys rowed by slaves and commanded by morons in an age of spears and dysentery!"

Next Panel, (Woman in black is holding Admiral's head by the neck in one hand, gesturing with her cane.)  "Unlike crappy, sail-powered baskets with ramming prows of pre-civilization, which sail on shallow water and are crewed by people who can not swim, Warships move in Three Dimensions.  this means if your enemy is stupid-stupid-stupid enough to try to ram, you can easily move out of the way, and then rip him apart by ramming his helpless hull to bits of tinfoil at point blank range!!" 

Final Panel, (woman in black is speaking, giivng the "ok" sign (in CapCon and SLDF versions, this is replaced by a V or Thumbs-up gesture), while humiliated admiral figure moans about committing seppuku) "Your Warship is a valuable resource not to be wasted by stupid-stupid-stupid gloryhound morons who do not know how to fight space-fights! use your beam, your missile, your cannon, your fighters, even your shuttles, but do not waste your ship!!  Remember, ram your girlfriend, ram your wife, ram your husband, but do not ram your ship!!"

-Proposed SLDF Navy joint officer's training pamphlet, 3057/04/11.  (this was actually adopted by the Cappellan and Draconis Combine navies virtually unedited aside from uniform details and currency equivalents.) Republished in pamphlet form for "PS/T magazine" (Com Guard) and Punch (Federated Suns).  Original Source: "A Coast Guard's Primer", Kowloon, 3055/02/01  (Sithers Burrow and Boojum children's press)