Author Topic: Warship Race Redux  (Read 92079 times)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #420 on: 28 April 2020, 09:30:04 »
That was quite helpful. Thank you very much.

Damn, I was really considering bee-lining towards LF Batteries, but now that I could, I'm not sure what I'd actually use them for. Or if I could even afford building a ship with them. Those things are expensive.  :o Not that I didn't know that. It's mostly the maintenance that'll kill me.
On that note, why doesn't the TH just mothball a few ships?

Regarding Cargo... guess I need bigger ships. Or, indeed, a fleet collier. Though I obviously have already factored ammunition and fuel, of which my ships aren't short anyways.

Looks like we now have a tech race?
« Last Edit: 28 April 2020, 09:52:00 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #421 on: 28 April 2020, 10:58:29 »
LF is a game changer.  If you can double-source your charging (Sail, Powerplant, External Batteries) you can double your strategic speed.  Each ship now can 'cover' twice as much front, or four times as much area (since the IS is apparently flat, volume doesnt matter so much).  You can jump in and then look around and go 'oops wrong house' and leave if theres a giant pile of awful coming to greet you.  Your scouts can jump in and look and jump back.

Heck, you can jump into the apex point, get scanned, and when the enemy fleet is halfway out to greet you (if they come out to greet you), jump to a pirate point near their world and go wreck stuff.

On the other hand, if your on offense, and not in a hurry, avoiding the batteries gives you a lot more weight of metal for your Cbill.  For a steamrolling, 'Im coming and I dont care if you know' style invasion, you probably dont need them.  So you pay your money and take your chances.

THN decided it was better to get the cash INFLUX from scrapping the really pretty obsolete light ships rather than pay (even if less so) to keep them in service.  Really, as ship sizes and combat power has grown, they dont serve a real purpose.  They cant threaten a real DD, and even their scout can murder DS and smaller in job lots, while being faster and having better sensors.  So out they go.
(Its also one less ship type for me to manage)

We always want more cargo.  We just also want more everything else.  If everyone looks at their budget and goes 'ARRGGGHHH THERE ARE NO GOOD ANSWERS' then all is working as it should.

RE:  Tech Race - Im not sure if race?  I think the late adopters are jumping in on known game-changer techs after other people have pioneered their use and paid the cost.  We will see if that continues to be the case.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #422 on: 28 April 2020, 11:24:38 »
True. I was just pondering this earlier and came to the conclusion that there's really no hurry after you've got what you need - gains are flat, so the relative difference is small.
And some of the later techs are a hard sell. Maybe we should make techs even cheaper if they are 4 turns old?  ;D

Oh, and brainstorming: What uses would you all find for AR-10s? Actually, if I research Castles Brian, what would they be equipped with, given that all the capital armament hasn't been researched yet?
Seeing how many people research IFA now, I've half a mind to postpone it to next turn and research something else now.
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #423 on: 28 April 2020, 11:35:42 »
True. I was just pondering this earlier and came to the conclusion that there's really no hurry after you've got what you need - gains are flat, so the relative difference is small.
And some of the later techs are a hard sell. Maybe we should make techs even cheaper if they are 4 turns old?  ;D

Oh, and brainstorming: What uses would you all find for AR-10s? Actually, if I research Castles Brian, what would they be equipped with, given that all the capital armament hasn't been researched yet?
Seeing how many people research IFA now, I've half a mind to postpone it to next turn and research something else now.

Well, either techs are too good/cheap, and we will blow through the tech tree too fast, or they arent good enough/too expensive, and noone will do research.  Or somewhere in between.  Time will tell.

Castles Brian will be armed with the nearest equivalent.  As for AR-10s.. .Eh, I can see the use case.  Barracuda for long/low probability shots due to better rangebands and lighter weightm or for anti-aircraft duty.  KW for maximum firepower per ton.  White Sharks for their improved crit chance - gives you even better 'hail mary' odds than the other tubes, or allows you to even adopt a 'crit it to death' approach against very tough ships.

Now, is this capability -worth it-?  Ehh.  Not so sure there, as missiles have a huge problem with ammo weight.  But I can see the arguement.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #424 on: 28 April 2020, 13:19:43 »
Probably more too fast than too slow.

Well, the AR-10 launcher weights more than a Barracuda and a Killer Whale, and its ammo is not compatible with the standard launchers. I assume it is mostly about staying under 20/40 guns per facing. Of course, that only works if you actually do, as the multiplier is on weapon weight.
I can see the point in logistics, though. Just fire what you have available.
As to weight - yes, that can be a problem. Though a launcher with 10 shots is about the weight of a Naval Autocannon, so I see it as more as a problem of endurance versus damage output.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2020, 16:08:58 by UnLimiTeD »
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Daryk

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #425 on: 28 April 2020, 18:09:09 »
AR-10s don't just fire whatever ammo you have handy?  ???

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #426 on: 28 April 2020, 18:38:14 »
AR-10s don't just fire whatever ammo you have handy?  ???

What he said?  I dont recall anything saying AR-10s had to be fed a special version of the missiles.  I thought they could draw on any capital missile?

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #427 on: 28 April 2020, 18:57:25 »
Well, they do have "AR-10" versions in every generic generation tool I know of and our spreadsheet.
I've never been sure, but I assume this was originally to differentiate them when you had to fulfil the design criteria of "at least 10 shots per weapon" in standard rules.
I remember having a case where I even needed 10 of every type I had per launcher.  ???
The actual rules I've read (today, in fact) didn't mention such a necessity in play, with the fluff mentioning they can fire all of those.
I vote we just do that anyways.
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Daryk

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #428 on: 28 April 2020, 19:00:02 »
I suspect it was just the design software trying to keep the associations of the ammo bays consistent.  Not that any ships have AR-10s AND regular launchers of other types, but it IS possible...

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #429 on: 28 April 2020, 19:38:33 »
Dammit: over the last two pages you've ruined all my surprise plans for the PoR fleet lol

Course I cant do half of them because of money issues but still....

truetanker

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #430 on: 28 April 2020, 19:54:55 »
Dammit: over the last two pages you've ruined all my surprise plans for the PoR fleet lol

Course I cant do half of them because of money issues but still....

Suggestion: Buy Jumpers and flood the enemy with conventional tactics with low cost repeated attacks by low end cheap warships that can be built for cheap each...

TT
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Jester Motley

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #431 on: 29 April 2020, 00:24:49 »
AR-10s are an "optimization" for that question of "what if I want to have all 3 missile types on my ship.  They allow flexibility of munition, without having to have dedicated launchers to each type.  If you're not mounting all 3 ammo types, though, you're better off mounting 2 launchers of the type you want, or 1 each of the 2 types you want to run.  Double the tubes, and more efficient.

The biggest issue with missiles is pds, which other weapon systems don't deal with.  Weight is weight, whether its gun mount, ammo, heat sinks, or fire-con.  In turn, they get several advantages, but its also hinky, since better PDS/AMS makes it a research war.  And yeah, that's a consideration on that tech tree.  To me, feels much more "real" to warfare than something like the same NAC-40 built in 2350 does the same damage, weighs the same weight, and has zero improvements in 3050, 700 years later.

Are missiles, and AR-10s worth it?  *shrug*  You'll note I mount small numbers of cuda tubes for their dual role nature and bonuses to hit.  I'm a sucker for "when you absolutely, positively, need to hit this turn..." and the occasional hail mary they provide.  But they're not anywhere near main armaments to me.  Not at this stage for sure.  And I mount NL/55s for similar reasons (I like tactical flexibility... a lot.  to much really.)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #432 on: 29 April 2020, 03:20:13 »
Could we incorporate design quirks into our designs? For a cost, balanced by others, or just for fluff?
Well, I guess we can always do the latter.
I think it would offer us new options to differentiate and add "character".
On second thought, have to brood over this some more.
« Last Edit: 29 April 2020, 06:07:11 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #433 on: 29 April 2020, 13:07:41 »
Could we incorporate design quirks into our designs? For a cost, balanced by others, or just for fluff?
Well, I guess we can always do the latter.
I think it would offer us new options to differentiate and add "character".
On second thought, have to brood over this some more.

I encourage quirks for fluff's sake, but I would not expect them to have a mechanical effect.  For one thing, I would have to decide what effect they had, if any, on our scale (How much does 'Easy to Maintain' lower the maintenance?  Inquiring minds want to know).  For another, they are pretty wildly imbalanced as against each other if you are trying to min-max them, and the temptation would be overwhelming.

Finally, I would not remember them.  I spent an entire day yesterday working out one part of next turns post, doing battle modeling, figuring out reasonable deployments, strategies, and responses, and running Lanchester Equations.  I struggle to keep track of all the variables that go into that - who has better fighter armor?  Who has how much PDS, and whats the likely distribution of incoming missile fire?  Whats the best fighter gun for anti-armor use that each side has?  How long can a range advantage be held on matching drive ships, and at what risk of exposing the vulnerable aft and nose arcs*?

Thats not a poor-me or a how-smart-I-am, just an acknowledgement that out of that pile of factors, I wont remember quirks :)

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #434 on: 29 April 2020, 13:50:27 »
Also... our spreadsheet is throwing costs for Sub Compact Cores that seem to be much, much higher than on other spreadsheets Ive used, and I think higher than the megamek design application.

Can someone check the spreadsheet vs whats in the books for cost calculations?

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #435 on: 29 April 2020, 14:00:11 »
Also... our spreadsheet is throwing costs for Sub Compact Cores that seem to be much, much higher than on other spreadsheets Ive used, and I think higher than the megamek design application.

Can someone check the spreadsheet vs whats in the books for cost calculations?

My memory tells me that sub compact cores are 16 times the cost vs a compact cost multiplayer of 3.

And I think it gets obscene with a lithium fusion battery. Like 48 times the cost.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #436 on: 29 April 2020, 14:08:15 »
My memory tells me that sub compact cores are 16 times the cost vs a compact cost multiplayer of 3.

And I think it gets obscene with a lithium fusion battery. Like 48 times the cost.

The spreadsheet we are using uses that x16.  But Im looking at ships done for other peoples design threads that use sub-compact cores that are way, way cheaper.

Do we know which book Sub-Compact Cores are in?  Im not finding them in Strat Ops

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #437 on: 29 April 2020, 14:11:51 »
Quote
I encourage quirks for fluff's sake, but I would not expect them to have a mechanical effect
Oh, I am aware. The maintenance is really what I was thinking of when I said I need to ponder this some more.
Warships mostly get fluff examples, anyways, like Improved Communications on a Bug Eye, which sounds extremely fitting, but the ingame effect is ignoring one level of ECM in combat - which the Bug Eye will want to stay away from. Or improved cooling jacket - yeah, reduce that heavy N-PPC bay heat by 1!  :D
Though the maintenance could just be a penalty in niche cases, like being away from supply lines for long, and I suppose the range bands (1 better, 1 worse) could be workable on some speciality units. 
Actually, is it possible to improve crew training through increased maintenance?

A really interesting one to give out based on events would be "Bad reputation":
Redeem the ship with daring heroism or upgrade them, or eventually public pressure will force a reduction in Naval spending or cancellation of further build orders.  ;D

But yeh, I don't really know how a turn happens, and what influence a design actually has on the outcome. Wouldn't want to make it harder on you.
I see quirks mostly as something coming into play in those rare role-playing / hand of god events, where you might decide on a detail outcome with equal dice rolls based on it, or whatever floats your boat.
In short - yeh, let's not bother all that much.

Edit: Seems they really are that expensive.
KF multiplier 16, TacOps p.141   Man, I am getting ninja'd here. Like, 3 times now. Added a quote to show what the main part of the post was for.

Edit 2: High as the costs may be, I suppose it has a niche. If I understood correctly that very tiny makes it harder to spot. Not sure it'd be harder than 100kt regular, though.
« Last Edit: 29 April 2020, 16:49:46 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #438 on: 29 April 2020, 18:20:13 »
But yeh, I don't really know how a turn happens, and what influence a design actually has on the outcome. Wouldn't want to make it harder on you.

(Tactical Layer)
I'm reluctant to go into any detail, lest I let the magic smoke out, but in brief, once its decided that there are ships in system shooting at each other, the outcome is largely decided by math, weighted by some dice rolling - but thats a weighting.  Now, the people IN UNIVERSE can also do math, but they arent working from perfect information - they will sometimes decline battles that I know they would win, or the reverse.

We take into account weight, range, and type of fire, agility of ships, best attack profiles/ranges and the ability to hold that range and what youll give up to do so (Note that forcing a close risks exposing the nose, and forcing the range open risks exposing the tail.  Crits there are worse than on broadside.  Its not a 'never do this', but have a reason and know the risks before exposing those noses and tails).  We pay attention to armor and SI (SI makes up a lot of a small vessels survivability, and helps keep small vessels relevant against their larger cousins). 

Crits go into the math, but very roughly - all weapons have a small chance to crit, which climbs as weapon damage does and drops as armor thickness increases.  Independent of this are the usual independent missile crit chances, which I have also given to the NGauss... 12, 11-12, and 10-12 respectively for L/M/H NGauss.

Fighters will be usually be used either defensively against enemy fighters (if inferior) or offensively in anti-shipping (if superior).  Note that fighters are brutal against ships with light armor, damaged armor, and/or inadequate point defense.

(Strategic Layer)
The much larger question of WHO is fighting WHO, where, with what ships, and what objectives, is actually the more important one.  We keep track of background history and whats happened in game, the personality and quality of national leadership, plug a RNG in to create some disruption, and look at national political goals and capabilities, and those of their enemies.  (If you notice that no one is attacking the TH, its because they can do math.  Each of you probably has at least 2-3 neighbors, and each of those neighbors the same.  One of their considerations every turn is 'can I beat this kid up and take his lunch money'.  Note we mostly exempt the TH from this in large part, because they are conquest-weary and unwilling to bear further costs for violent expansion.  Mostly)

(Operational Layer)
Then its moving ship deployments around, based in part on what you told us was stationed where, and playing games with what information is available to both sides at what time to drive what decisions about what to move where when to achieve the goals we looked at above.  Can you get word to your ships in time?  Can they get there in time?  Are there enough recharge stations to slightly speed its passing, or that of the messenger dropships?  Do you have spare jumpships to form information exchange command circuits? (Communications lag is insane before HPGs come along).  Its sensors and force appreciations outside of engagement range - do you break off, press on?  Roll the dice against a more powerful enemy to try to punch through and burn the dropships and prevent the invasion?  Or break off and make faces at them from outside engagement range, waiting for reinforcements (If you can!  A faster opponent makes more choices for himself, and takes yours away... same for sensors)

One advantage of having two GMs is we smell-test stuff off each other.  It doesnt make us perfect, but if each of us has an utterly hair-brained idea or outcome one time in 10, having us check each other theoretically makes that one time in 100.  Smegish has pulled me back from the edge more than once and catches stuff I miss almost daily.  I dont think he makes as many mistakes as I do, but I try to help, as well.  :)

What we dont do is roll a d6 for Bob, a d6 for Jane, and then whoever rolled higher wins, which we then try to explain using in-game elements.
« Last Edit: 29 April 2020, 18:52:11 by marcussmythe »

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #439 on: 29 April 2020, 23:11:14 »
Question.... the Vittoria's I am buying from the RWR this turn: I have to obviously repair them: do I have to pay maintenance this turn or do they count as just created?

Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #440 on: 29 April 2020, 23:28:45 »
Believe we'll stay consistent with the various THN ship purchases and not make you pay maintenance on top of the repair bill AND what you paid RWR for em.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #441 on: 29 April 2020, 23:46:42 »
I wanted to double check because i was like "Oh damn... "... thanks. With that I've finalized my budget now to type it all up.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #442 on: 30 April 2020, 03:23:56 »
The maintenance rules as they are, it's cheaper to buy a TH ship, lose it, and buy another one, than to repair it after battle.  ^-^
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #443 on: 30 April 2020, 10:19:49 »
The maintenance rules as they are, it's cheaper to buy a TH ship, lose it, and buy another one, than to repair it after battle.  ^-^

Yall keep this up, Im'ma start charging you maintenance on ships the turn you buy them...

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #444 on: 30 April 2020, 14:35:55 »
I may or may not have spent all last night designing ships that mirror canon ships... with the PoR tech levels and not actually writing my turn out....


MML is addicting....

I mean if I keep loosing ships I keep having to buy them: I’m sure you’re okay with that lol.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #445 on: 30 April 2020, 14:40:02 »
I mean if I keep loosing ships I keep having to buy them: I’m sure you’re okay with that lol.

I think of it as helping address peoples concerns with maintenance costs.

I’m a helper that way.

Jester Motley

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #446 on: 30 April 2020, 15:28:12 »
Re quirks...  I'd not be in favor of them as a mechanic of advantage.  I am in favor of them for both personality factors "its not a 48 NPPC ship, its a 48 NPPC ship with targeting software that occasionally identifies asteroids and debris as high-threat targets.  And one cloud that one time in orbit.  Just once, but the software swore it was a McKenna... until it turned into a duck.. then a dragon..."

... and for GM hooks.  In my youth, I thought the perfect character to roleplay was a straight 18s fighter/thief/magic-user/bard with psionics.  Now, I find flaws more fun to incorporate and play.  So if I can throw a bone or two at a gm, or even inspire a good story, its a win all around.  And hell, most of my quirks inspire stories for me, even if I don't fluff them all out.  So yeah, some of my ships will have quirks, and I expect no (game) benefit from them.  (Last game, There was the Zephyr, but which translated back to english as 'rapid ventilation' which also translated into 'breaking west wind' and... That ship will forever have the "increased chance of marine fights in foreign ports/increased chance of diplomatic incident" as a quirk in my book.

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #447 on: 30 April 2020, 16:23:52 »
When I design units for this game I try to give as many plot hook attachments as I can.

Even though space stations are built in place I still have a jumpship capable of moving them around as needed.

My ships focus on several doctrine choices so that battle outcomes will vary in description.

And the fluff fighters, and maybe soon dropship, designs are a bit off the normal to give extra options for story ideas.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #448 on: 30 April 2020, 19:15:08 »
Rules update:  On discussion with Smegish, and reflecting on the fact that the Mammoth (50KT, well into the 'large' category) CAN land on planets, and no rules PREVENT a 100kt Dropship design from landing on planets, we are changing the posted rules to allow large dropships (108 Units for a military dropship, 75KT Cargo for a Cargo Dropper) to land on planets.

I am aware a 100KT Dropship with 108 Fighters/Mechs onboard retains a phenomenal amount of tonnage for armor, weapons, engines, fuel, etc. This is appropriate, as it is this tonnage spent on those things that allows a dropship to stay combat relevant in a Warship World.

truetanker

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #449 on: 30 April 2020, 23:23:12 »
Official TW rules states a 2/3 MP is needed to take off a planet with standard 1G atmosphere. So if you have a vessel with less, it won't make it off.

And I see nothing against Space Elevators in TW.

Unless I've missed it, again.

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016