Author Topic: Can you catch a LAM?  (Read 4674 times)

1000Foot

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Can you catch a LAM?
« on: 28 April 2020, 21:52:38 »
Hi all. I've been running a campaign set in 3002 with my son and he recently ran into a Stinger LAM with his mercenary force which escaped during the battle. His mercs are working in conjunction with another aerospace-only merc company who'd like to get their hands on that LAM. They'd be willing to pay top c-bills if his ground pounders could get their hands on that LAM and sell it to the aerospace mercs. Problem is, I'm not quite sure how he'd go about doing that.

He could potentially set up an ambush, but is there a "safe" way of disabling a mech for capture? I thought of driving its heat up to slow its movement, but he doesn't have any mechs mounting flamers. Maybe he could kick or charge it and possibly knock it down, but I figured if he misses its going to be able to use its superior movement to escape.

Any ideas? I've dabbled with Battletech over the years, and while I really enjoy it I'm by no means an expert. I could use some advice. Thanks!

 

R.Tempest

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2020, 23:44:55 »
 I'd think your only hope is to catch it on the ground and shoot a leg off. IIRC a LAM can not change modes if it is missing a limb, so now you have a crippled, overweight, Stinger to deal with.
 That being said, I don't think there's any reason for a LAM to be in mech mode other than having to fit into a mech bay for transport.

Nav_Alpha

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #2 on: 29 April 2020, 00:05:58 »
Maybe go more the RPG route and mix it up with some classic BT.
So, maybe the unit inserts a pilot into the LAM’s flight crew.
Your forces have to then hold off the enemy for XX amount of turns while the operative gets into the cockpit and then you need to protect the LAM and shepherd it to safety, with the enemy pursuing to YY point.

Or maybe get creative with scenarios. You’ve laid mines on the runway. LAM is considered down by not out - pilot wounded or needs time to unhook certain cable and reroute power. This takes ZZZ rounds while your troops move in.
Meanwhile, a blocking or relief force is in bound and they will arrive on the air field in KKK rounds.
You’re job is to get in quick, secure the site (maybe even fighting off some turrets and base defenders), secure the airfield and then capture the LAM by scanning it.
Meanwhile, that blocking force is moving in


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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #3 on: 29 April 2020, 00:32:42 »
I thought of driving its heat up to slow its movement, but he doesn't have any mechs mounting flamers.

Inferno SRMs.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inferno

Also anti-mech infantry for crippling a leg or two.

There are also references to things like mech-sized man traps (Death Gulch, I think, in McCarron’s Armored Cavalry) and land/cliff/rockslides (the Great Gash in the Battle of Twycross) in some older scenario packs.  Those might fit the bill, depending on what mode that LAM is in when the trigger is released.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/McCarron%27s_Armored_Cavalry_(scenario_pack
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_of_Twycross
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Battle_for_Twycross
« Last Edit: 29 April 2020, 00:55:19 by Natasha Kerensky »
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dgorsman

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #4 on: 29 April 2020, 00:41:52 »
There are rules for grappling in TacOps but they're fairly complex.  You might want to introduce called shots (high, left, right, and most importantly here, low) as a much simpler option, potentially along with bracing and careful aim to offset the to-hit penalty.

The easiest method, I think, has already been mentioned.  Set up a scenario which gives them the potential to capture it on the ground.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #5 on: 29 April 2020, 01:23:53 »
I'd think your only hope is to catch it on the ground and shoot a leg off. IIRC a LAM can not change modes if it is missing a limb, so now you have a crippled, overweight, Stinger to deal with.
 That being said, I don't think there's any reason for a LAM to be in mech mode other than having to fit into a mech bay for transport.

in airmech mode LAM's can't hit the broad side of an overlord. Mech mode is for combat, airmech mode is for crosscountry deployment/redeployment between attacks, and fighter mode is for insertion and extraction (it lacks the fuel to do much else)

Major Headcase

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #6 on: 29 April 2020, 01:50:07 »
An Archer with a huge butterfly net made from myomer fiber??

Syzyx

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #7 on: 29 April 2020, 02:17:47 »
How to capture a LAM?

In my experience, the best way to capture LAM involves a three pronged, combined arms approach.

Force One: A contingent of infantry. This force infiltrates the base where the LAM is located and waits undetected. Their primary job is to block and eliminate the LAM mechwarrior. Nothing else really matters for this operation as if these guys fail then the LAM will have to be significantly damaged to capture it and a 30 ton Stinger just can't sustain that kind of abuse and be much more than parts thereafter.

Force 2: Something big and scary. This group can be tanks or 'mechs or whatever. Their job is to get the enemies attention and get them moving in a particular direction. They have to pose a significant threat to the enemy, ideally an existential threat, so that it is plausible that this is not just a diversion.

Force 3: Something speedy with hands and cargo. This group comes in from the opposite side of Force 2 and is actually responsible for grabbing the LAM and extracting the infantry. In my experience you'll want something like a Quickdraw and a large flatbed truck or heavy lift VTOL.

The operation, theoretically, flows something like this:

Force One gets in position and settle in for a stretch of boredom while the heavier forces get in position around the enemy base. Once Forces 2 and 3 are in position Force 2 attacks which is the signal for Force One to move toward the LAM to intercept the warrior and keep it out of the fight. Force 3 waits three or four rounds before entering the field to make sure the enemy is committed against Force 2. If they decide to turn around and intercept Force 3 then they are giving their backs to Force 2 which is great. Force 3 makes straight for the LAM, smashes into the hangar if there is one, and tosses the LAM onto the transport. No, there is no careful loading here. Just grab the thing and heave. That's why something like a Quickdraw is great. It'll be stuck in place for a turn or two doing this but it has the mass to manhandle the Stinger and the armor to handle the small amount of fire potentially coming its way for that duration. Yes, the LAM and the transport will be taking damage from this but that is survivable and ultimately negligible. Repairs can be done back at the friendly base.

DO NOT use the same transport for the LAM and extracting the infantry. The Stinger will be unsecured during a speedy withdrawal. 30 tons of sliding 'mech tends to turn your infantry into impromptu liquid cargo.

This plan does involve playing fast and loose with some rules but has met with few arguments the number of times I've run and played this scenario over the years.
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Two Guns Blazing

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #8 on: 29 April 2020, 04:39:22 »
Your son should plan a two phase operation.

Phase 1 - A hired team of operators carry out a raid on the compound where the LAM is kept with two objectives...main objective is to disable the LAM and the secondary objective is to kill the LAM's pilot, and

Phase 2 - Your son's Mercs move in and take the rest of the base down and end up with the LAM and if they are careful in their take down of the compound, some LAM specific spare parts.

massey

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #9 on: 29 April 2020, 07:30:21 »
Remember the movie Firefox?  That was a great movie.

You need to hire Clint Eastwood to sneak in and steal the LAM.

Kovax

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #10 on: 29 April 2020, 08:05:41 »
If you can get something close enough to kick a leg, there's not a lot of armor protecting it, and it's easy enough to keep it on the ground until the pilot surrenders, or your infantry shows up to drag him out of the cockpit.  A one-legged Stinger LAM is probably repairable without too much parts-hunting, and still valuable.  If you have to shoot it repeatedly, you run the risk of coring it, and reducing it to spare parts.

Since nothing ever goes entirely according to plan, I'd probably opt for a Plan A to infiltrate a sniper into effective range of the enemy compound, to pick off the LAM pilot on his way to the machine.  Plan B would be to have an extremely fast 'Mech race directly toward the LAM, and try to get to it before the pilot arrives, or at the very least, before he can get it airborne.  Depending on the success/failure of the sniper, the attacking 'Mech can either target the pilot or kick the still-inactive LAM over, doing leg damage and delaying its takeoff until it stands up again, during which time you're kicking it again.  The problem is getting your sniper in place without detection, and getting a 'Mech close enough to make the sudden dash before the defenders can mobilize.  That means using terrain, weather, and possibly active sensor jamming to get close enough.  Your main force will arrive somewhat later, so that initial attacker needs to withstand whatever the defenders can throw at it until the LAM is down or the rest of the attack force arrives.  If your group has access to a Jenner or Ostscout (7/11 or 8/12 movement and enough mass to do decent kick damage), that would help, although a standard Locust could probably pull it off almost as well.

Colt Ward

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #11 on: 29 April 2020, 09:32:50 »
Remember the movie Firefox?  That was a great movie.

You need to hire Clint Eastwood to sneak in and steal the LAM.

Go with this approach.  In fact, hand the kid a dossier about your infiltrator using pics of Eastwood from the movie.
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grimlock1

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #12 on: 29 April 2020, 11:22:45 »
Grappling rules? TO page 90.

Target must be grappled for X consecutive turns to force a surrender.
Or the target must grappled, and X attackers must move to adjacent hexes.  The abstraction there is a Grasshopper bearhugs the LAM, a Kintaro takes a knee and grabs the legs, and a Centurion taps its autocannon on the side of the LAM's head.

RAW says only mechs or protomechs can grapple or be grappled, so strictly speaking, this wouldn't work against an Airmech. So that's a bit of a problem.
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1000Foot

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #13 on: 29 April 2020, 13:31:55 »
Thanks guys, these are great ideas. Haven't watched Firefox in 30 years so I'll need a rewatch :)


RAW says only mechs or protomechs can grapple or be grappled, so strictly speaking, this wouldn't work against an Airmech. So that's a bit of a problem.

Not a problem at all! I am playing fast and loose with the Battletech rules, adding house rules and handwaving stuff so changing the grapple rules will be no problem.

garhkal

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #14 on: 29 April 2020, 14:29:07 »
Maybe a 100 tonner with TSM active, could try to grab its arm/leg as it flies past (ala optimus in transformers, when he tried to grab megatron)...

That's what i thought of initially, when i saw the thread title.
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RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #15 on: 29 April 2020, 14:39:13 »
Could just try to hire the LAM Pilot away from the unit they're with. But have a crew ready to steal it case he declines

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #16 on: 29 April 2020, 16:01:30 »
The pilot has to get out eventually.  Shoot him as he gets out, burn down his barracks while he's asleep, drop artillery on his DFAC while he's eating, etc etc.
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dgorsman

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #17 on: 29 April 2020, 16:36:43 »
Combat drop on their firebase, with one of the aerospace unit's pilots in a jump seat.  Try to keep everything at bay while the LAM security system is bypassed, and have their pilot fly it out under escort from the other fighters.  They're the ones who want it bad, after all.  Just get paid most of the money up front.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #18 on: 29 April 2020, 16:44:57 »
I second that plan.  Let the people who actually want the stupid thing handle the risky part.
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elf25s

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #19 on: 29 April 2020, 17:07:03 »
ok you want to be sneaky or violent? and what is the scenario?
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

Wolf72

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #20 on: 29 April 2020, 17:41:31 »
offer him a chance to surrender after his forces are really beat up.

If he has no where to go, no dropship, no alternate base, no allies ... he may decide to give up and join up with a new crew.  Merc's gotta live, right?
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Col Toda

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #21 on: 05 May 2020, 01:23:09 »
In 3002 a LAM is a white Elephant  . Spare parts are machined and cost 5X standard . Pilot  has to be cross trained  in both mechs and aerospace  . Great idea to sell it . If the opposition force has been suffering  owning it for a while  they should be willing to sell it to the sucker's who want to buy it . 60 -120 million  if a fair price  .  It is an irreplaceable  loss leader .  In 3002 a LAM in the field  is like driving a tank with the collected works of Da Vinci hung on the outside of it . Kinda irresponsible to field it at all . Best use as a donation to a museum or sent to a research center to reverse engineer .

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #22 on: 05 May 2020, 02:46:51 »
Yeah, but if someone wants one badly enough that they're going to pay you extra to capture one for them, why not do so?
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RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #23 on: 05 May 2020, 02:55:57 »
Except even in 3025 LAMs were seen as highly valuable unrivaled scouts and raiders. They were valuable enough to launch Planetary Invasions just to get spare parts. They would also spend a year rebuilding LAMs rather than parting the wreckage out.

60-120 million is exceedingly high considering the cost of a brand new Stinger LAM STG-A5 is only 3,280,900 credits.

Having to fabricate parts is where it gets expensive. Fabrication  costs 10 times normal cost but once you've fabricated the part purchasing them is half price. So that first LAM might cost 32,809,000 credits to fabricate the entire thing but the next one and all the LAMs after that would only cost 1,640,450.  So there's no way anyone is going to pay 60-120 million credits for one. It'd be cheaper to steal it.



Kovax

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #24 on: 05 May 2020, 08:42:12 »
Fabrication  costs 10 times normal cost but once you've fabricated the part purchasing them is half price. So that first LAM might cost 32,809,000 credits to fabricate the entire thing but the next one and all the LAMs after that would only cost 1,640,450.
Are you sure that doesn't mean "half price" compared to the initial hand-fabricated unit?  That would be "only" 16,404,500 C-Bills for each subsequent unit.  Building at a dedicated factory has to be far cheaper than manually fabricating each part without all the exotic and expensive machinery designed to produce that specific piece of equipment.

I would expect at least 10M, if not 12-15M, for a reasonably intact Stinger LAM.  60-120M would be absurd, since you could afford to hand-build them and still sell at a large mark-up.  Somebody would already be doing that, at that price.  At 10x its initial production cost, a LAM is basically too expensive to purchase or maintain, leading to them falling out of use over time.  At its base cost, it's something that the Great Houses were falling all over each other, kicking and biting, to get.  A realistic "value" would therefore need to be somewhere in the middle.

RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #25 on: 05 May 2020, 13:26:53 »


Are you sure that doesn't mean "half price" compared to the initial hand-fabricated unit?  That would be "only" 16,404,500 C-Bills for each subsequent unit.  Building at a dedicated factory has to be far cheaper than manually fabricating each part without all the exotic and expensive machinery designed to produce that specific piece of equipment.

I'm sure.
Quote
The purchase price of a fabricated part is half that of a new
component.
SOpg179 and after spending at 10x the cost to fabricate each part, or more depending on how successful the techs were, you pretty much do have a factory. That's why the cost for buying fabricated is so much less. You're paying the production cost not the retail price.



Quote
I would expect at least 10M, if not 12-15M, for a reasonably intact Stinger LAM.  60-120M would be absurd, since you could afford to hand-build them and still sell at a large mark-up.  Somebody would already be doing that, at that price.  At 10x its initial production cost, a LAM is basically too expensive to purchase or maintain, leading to them falling out of use over time.  At its base cost, it's something that the Great Houses were falling all over each other, kicking and biting, to get.  A realistic "value" would therefore need to be somewhere in the middle.

10 mil for a used Stinger LAM seems kind of high to me but if a buyer is desperate enough I can see a seller getting it. I don't think it's that likely though. Probably the price would start at 10 and then get negotiated down.

And I would agree that the 10x the price is expensive but once you can make the parts they're half price. And the Houses have been doing that since the 1st Succession War. I can see not making new factories during the 2nd and 3rd Wars. They'd just get nuked or sabotaged. After though, especially with all the factories popping up during and after the Clan Invasion there should have been new LAM factories built.

Just looking at the prices of mechs and LAMs should never had just disappeared. You're standard tech Fireball ALM-7D costs 3,022,240 credits. Nearly as much as the Stinger LAM. The 40MP experimental Fireball ALM-XF costs 16,909,240 credits. That's more than 5x the cost of a Stinger LAM and it was made to order by an individual. If one person can have a custom mech built like that then then new factories for LAMs should be easy.


Col Toda

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #26 on: 06 May 2020, 10:26:20 »
Factory production in 3002 is a black box tech situation in which the factory  can only build and assemble  what it is designed to build . It was not until the Helm data core was recovered that new templates or new purpose built black box tech could be applied again . So it would be 10x machined parts until 3039 minimum 3049 realistically.  So again  loss leader . Before even risk using it at all fabricating  spare parts means taking the LAM appart and bench test it vs original part .You have to get your hands on the LAM in the first place . That is Before machining  parts . The LAM therefore did not get reintroduced  because  3049 XL engines and double heat sinks made any future purpose built unit 50 -60 percent  better in either role .

RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #27 on: 06 May 2020, 18:27:28 »
Factory production in 3002 is a black box tech situation in which the factory  can only build and assemble  what it is designed to build . It was not until the Helm data core was recovered that new templates or new purpose built black box tech could be applied again . So it would be 10x machined parts until 3039 minimum 3049 realistically.  So again  loss leader . Before even risk using it at all fabricating  spare parts means taking the LAM appart and bench test it vs original part .You have to get your hands on the LAM in the first place . That is Before machining  parts . The LAM therefore did not get reintroduced  because  3049 XL engines and double heat sinks made any future purpose built unit 50 -60 percent  better in either role .

Depends on the factory. An automated factory like the one that made Valkyries was black box. Other factories were the mechs were built by hand weren't. Also mechs like the Merlin and Hatchetman would disagree that new mechs couldn't be built without the Helm Memory Core as they were introduced before the core was found.

Also the 10x cost is only for the first part since you have to make molds and such. After that the cost of parts is half that of a new one. And by 3039 the IS has been keeping LAMs in operation with spares and fabricated parts for around 250 years. So the Houses and wealthy individuals and companies could afford to keep their LAMs working.

As for needing to take apart a LAM, that would have been done, a long time ago. Unless of course you don't have the right connections then it'd take time and having to match parts and reverse them and such which is why it'd cost 10x as much. For those with the right connections though you're buying fabricated parts, not fabricating them.

Really, by the time of the War of 3039 LAMs should have been upgraded with prototype tech and by the time of the Clan Invasion they should have had factories producing LAMs with SLDF Tech. DHS would have made LAMs even better. XL Engines wouldn't help LAMs any but they also have a high cost. A 180 XL Engine cost nearly half as much as a Stinger LAM. XXL Engines cost even more. That 40 MP Fireball can outrun a Stinger LAM in AirMech mode but you can buy 5 Stinger LAMs for the price of one 40 MP Fireball. Really by the time of the Jihad the question should be does one purchase, lower tech lower cost LAMs, or higher tech higher cost Mechs or fighters?

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #28 on: 06 May 2020, 19:54:24 »
Except that as has already been stated, LAMs had numerous other problems due to their dual nature such that made them unsuited for mass deployment.  They had a very niche role that was really not one that offered an advantage that was sufficient to offset their cost once factories were churning out standard Battlemechs in mass quantities again.
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R.Tempest

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #29 on: 06 May 2020, 21:40:32 »
 :)) I have to admit when I first saw this threads title I had an image of an Atlas reaching up with an arm and holding a LAM in place. I realize this can't actually be done but it would look cool.