Can you catch a LAM?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Actually, TacOps has rules for grappling.

[RifleMech]

Except that as has already been stated, LAMs had numerous other problems due to their dual nature such that made them unsuited for mass deployment.  They had a very niche role that was really not one that offered an advantage that was sufficient to offset their cost once factories were churning out standard Battlemechs in mass quantities again.

Their not being suited for mass deployment  and having a very niche role is false. Thousands of LAMs were produced. Their advantages only increased once tech started being lost. Those abilities remained after factories started producing new advanced tech Mechs again as those technologies existed when LAMs were originally introduced. Even advanced Stealth Systems existed before LAMs were introduced.

It's now that Stealth Armor, Super Chargers, and XXL Engines are being used on standard units, not just specialty ones that make it harder for LAMs to compete. LAMs still have advantages mostly flight and low cost but the expensive options available to standard Mechs do mean that LAMs are no longer reign as the best recon units and raiders. Ultimately it depends on how much one wants to spend. For a lance of 40 MP Fireballs you can have 2 companies of Stinger LAMs.

:)) I have to admit when I first saw this threads title I had an image of an Atlas reaching up with an arm and holding a LAM in place. I realize this can't actually be done but it would look cool.

 ;D I had an image of an Atlas running with it's arms out to catch a falling LAM.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Their not being suited for mass deployment  and having a very niche role is false. Thousands of LAMs were produced.

]

By the Star League, which also produced thousands of Banshees and thousands of Chargers.  The Star League didn't care whether a particular design was flawed, so long as they could flex their economic muscles.  If they'd developed the HVAC, they'd probably have produced thousands of self-disposing Po (HVAC) tanks, as well.

Their advantages only increased once tech started being lost. Those abilities remained after factories started producing new advanced tech Mechs again as those technologies existed when LAMs were originally introduced. Even advanced Stealth Systems existed before LAMs were introduced.

It's now that Stealth Armor, Super Chargers, and XXL Engines are being used on standard units, not just specialty ones that make it harder for LAMs to compete. LAMs still have advantages mostly flight and low cost but the expensive options available to standard Mechs do mean that LAMs are no longer reign as the best recon units and raiders. Ultimately it depends on how much one wants to spend. For a lance of 40 MP Fireballs you can have 2 companies of Stinger LAMs.

As has been pointed out numerous times, the C-Bill cost of equipment is a random, arbitrary number that never changes, in total defiance of how real-world economics work.  The cost of an XXL engine hasn't changed from its introduction in Max Tech, back when engineers at the NAIS were assembling them by hand.  By the time they reach mass production they're obviously not that expensive.

Beyond that, there are additional costs to keep all that specialized, finicky conversion gear running that the hypothetical 40-hex running Fireball that nobody's actually building doesn't have.  And there's the issue with the meat that rides the metal: the Fireball can be reasonably piloted by anyone who's completed basic mechwarrior training.  Maybe not to the fullest extent of its abilities but it's canon that someone who knows how to pilot one Battlemech can effectively pilot any Battlemech.  LAMs, on the other hand, require a lot more specialized training.  Training that's both expensive and time consuming.  You're unlikely to bother giving everyone in your regiment that training, which means that you're always going to have a limited stable of pilots to choose from.

And let's remember that the Word of Blake eventually built their own LAMs that they crammed all the Clantech in that they could, and even then the things failed to be the wunderwaffe that they were hoping for.

[RifleMech]

]

By the Star League, which also produced thousands of Banshees and thousands of Chargers.  The Star League didn't care whether a particular design was flawed, so long as they could flex their economic muscles.  If they'd developed the HVAC, they'd probably have produced thousands of self-disposing Po (HVAC) tanks, as well.

The Banshee actually had several advantages over the Mackie when it was introduced. The upgraded version while produced in the thousands was also produced for a limited time. LAM production only ended with the destruction of the last factory. As for the Charger, it's a specialty design. It's intended to be the way it is and it did its job as intended. As for HVACs, I could see them producing them as Field Guns but no on tanks that blow themselves up. The TA does cancel things that don't work right, like the Thorizer.

As has been pointed out numerous times, the C-Bill cost of equipment is a random, arbitrary number that never changes, in total defiance of how real-world economics work.  The cost of an XXL engine hasn't changed from its introduction in Max Tech, back when engineers at the NAIS were assembling them by hand.  By the time they reach mass production they're obviously not that expensive.

While FASAnomics is an issue, some things will always be more expensive than others. The listed prices are also the "Manufacture's Suggested Retail Price." There are rules that would increase or lower those prices as well as cost modifiers for location/faction and era.

Beyond that, there are additional costs to keep all that specialized, finicky conversion gear running that the hypothetical 40-hex running Fireball that nobody's actually building doesn't have. 

Actually, it was built for a private individual and if an individual can afford one of them a House can afford LAMs.

And there's the issue with the meat that rides the metal: the Fireball can be reasonably piloted by anyone who's completed basic mechwarrior training.  Maybe not to the fullest extent of its abilities but it's canon that someone who knows how to pilot one Battlemech can effectively pilot any Battlemech.  LAMs, on the other hand, require a lot more specialized training.  Training that's both expensive and time consuming.  You're unlikely to bother giving everyone in your regiment that training, which means that you're always going to have a limited stable of pilots to choose from.

Very true. Training for a LAM does take longer and is more expensive. And not everyone in a regiment would be qualified to operate a LAM. That doesn't mean that LAMs still aren't less expensive than the currant super high tech Mechs of today. Or even of the Star League Era. A Spector SPR-4F with all it's stealth equipment costs 8,756,730. That's a bit over 2.5 times the cost of a Stinger LAM.

And let's remember that the Word of Blake eventually built their own LAMs that they crammed all the Clantech in that they could, and even then the things failed to be the wunderwaffe that they were hoping for.

I never said that they were a wunderwaffe. I don't think they should be either. What I do think is that they're amazing scouts, raiders, and strikers. I also think they're still viable units and should still be available do to their lower costs than their high tech alternatives. Granted depending on the mission they may no longer be the first choice but they're still an option.

[Ruger]

:)) I have to admit when I first saw this threads title I had an image of an Atlas reaching up with an arm and holding a LAM in place. I realize this can't actually be done but it would look cool.

Now, that flashed me back a few decades to one of the early Transformers comics (I want to say issue two, back when it was just supposed to be a four issue limited series), with Optimus reaching up and catching Starscream’s leg mid-transformation outside the Witwicky autoshop.

Ruger

[Syzyx]

Thanks for reminding me that I'm old... Yeah, I had that series...

[Wolf72]

that is an image from a long, long time ago ... do I still have those? what condition are they in?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Actually, it was built for a private individual and if an individual can afford one of them a House can afford LAMs.

Nobody said that the Houses couldn't afford LAMs.  The issue is that their extra costs and weaknesses result in them not being worth the price to the people in charge of procurement.

[jimdigris]

An Archer with a huge butterfly net made from myomer fiber??

You beat me to it! >:(

 ;)

[jimdigris]

What about hitting it with a mech-taser?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Mech tasers might be a tad hard to come by in 3002.

[jimdigris]

I should've read that first post more carefully. :facepalm:

[RifleMech]

Nobody said that the Houses couldn't afford LAMs.  The issue is that their extra costs and weaknesses result in them not being worth the price to the people in charge of procurement.

Except they've been doing just that since they were created. They've also been launching invasions for spare parts and Fabricating parts for 250+ years by 3039. And when you look at the costs LAMs are as expensive to far less expensive than standard mechs with advanced tech. The people in charge of procurement usually prefer the least expensive option and for all they can do, LAMs are the least expensive option.

I should've read that first post more carefully. :facepalm:

Someone could always stumble over a Centurion Weapon System and use that. I would think they'd be effective on just a vast majority of LAMs since they'd be over 150 years old.

[massey]

As far as LAM costs, you've got to keep in mind that a real world decision was made several years ago to retcon LAMs.

Post-retcon, LAMs are big expensive boondoggles that waste money and lack any real role on the battlefield.  Only the Star League could really use them because they had infinite money.

Pre-retcon, LAMs were awesome and worth every penny.  They were still expensive and hard to maintain, but they were worth the trouble.  Even mercenary companies would get them if they had the chance.

We've got people in this thread arguing on each side of the divide.  Those opinions can't be reconciled.

[RifleMech]

As far as LAM costs, you've got to keep in mind that a real world decision was made several years ago to retcon LAMs.

Post-retcon, LAMs are big expensive boondoggles that waste money and lack any real role on the battlefield.  Only the Star League could really use them because they had infinite money.

Pre-retcon, LAMs were awesome and worth every penny.  They were still expensive and hard to maintain, but they were worth the trouble.  Even mercenary companies would get them if they had the chance.

We've got people in this thread arguing on each side of the divide.  Those opinions can't be reconciled.

The problem is the retcon. It makes no sense and even conflicts with itself.

Pre-retcon private estates could maintain a LAM in perfect working order.  LAMs were also maintained for 250+ years with spare and fabricated parts.

Post-retcon no one but the SLDF could afford them yet not only can private individuals can build a mech that costs more than five times the cost of a single LAM but the above remains true.

Post Retcon only the SLDF could afford LAMs but the SLDF never actually built any. Every LAM was created by private companies. Most companies built LAMs in hopes of getting a SLDF manufacturing contract but not all. Some companies built LAMs purely as a proof of concept. You don't do that if LAMs are too expensive for anyone but the SLDF to build.

And if only the SLDF could afford LAMs, how'd the WoB, not only produce or obtain the three mass produced SL era LAMs but produce three more new types of their own? If the post retcon is true then that should have been impossible.

And then of course there's QuadVees. Same concept and a single Clan has built 5 different kinds, with two different motive systems, some of which are OMNIs. That shouldn't happen either as Quadvees have a similar cost as LAMs.

I know there were real life issues that caused LAMs to disappear but the retcon shouldn't be. There's better ways that LAMs could have disappeared than with a retcon that  doesn't work.

I take the "Only the Star League could have done it." as in universe propaganda by people who hate LAMs for the WoB connection and because they can make more money selling far more expensive units. 

[dgorsman]

 :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[RifleMech]

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

How do you think I feel?

[massey]

Yeah I understand, but we don't need the same argument every time a thread opens up.  I think we just acknowledge it and move on. 

For the record, the topic of the thread seems to presume LAMs = good, so I really think that should be the default assumption for this conversation.

[RifleMech]

Yeah I understand, but we don't need the same argument every time a thread opens up.  I think we just acknowledge it and move on. 

For the record, the topic of the thread seems to presume LAMs = good, so I really think that should be the default assumption for this conversation.

Talking about costs was initially a reply to purchasing a Stinger LAM for 60-120 million. I think that's exceedingly high since you could fabricate one for just over half that price.

To get back to catching a LAM, if the mech is in the right place at the right time, I think it's possible. I think a Superheavy or an Assault with TSM has the best chance of doing it.

[grimlock1]

Talking about costs was initially a reply to purchasing a Stinger LAM for 60-120 million. I think that's exceedingly high since you could fabricate one for just over half that price.

To get back to catching a LAM, if the mech is in the right place at the right time, I think it's possible. I think a Superheavy or an Assault with TSM has the best chance of doing it.

I can't see an Airmech in flight being grabbed or "caught" sut taking significant damage.  You could grab the arms, legs, or fusalage/body, but inertial will send both units down in a tumble.  The mech components will weather that well enough, but I worry about the wings.  Although I could be wrong.  IO 112 and 114 don't seem to call out wing damage from Airmech Ram attacks or crashes. 

I could have sworn that Airmechs suffered a PSR penalty for physicals, similar to the gunnery penalty they take. If that were true, then pushes, trips and kicks would be particularly effective against an airmech that is on the ground but I guess not.

[RifleMech]

I can't see an Airmech in flight being grabbed or "caught" sut taking significant damage.  You could grab the arms, legs, or fusalage/body, but inertial will send both units down in a tumble.  The mech components will weather that well enough, but I worry about the wings.  Although I could be wrong.  IO 112 and 114 don't seem to call out wing damage from Airmech Ram attacks or crashes. 

I could have sworn that Airmechs suffered a PSR penalty for physicals, similar to the gunnery penalty they take. If that were true, then pushes, trips and kicks would be particularly effective against an airmech that is on the ground but I guess not.

It probably isn't likely but there could be circumstances that might make it more possible.

There are control rolls for physicals. They're on pages 112 and 114.