Author Topic: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder  (Read 39031 times)

tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #300 on: 20 September 2024, 07:03:00 »
Quite so, but I was agreeing with you and throwing out a couple more examples of colonies being big risks for the Clans that invested in their development.

Oh no, I wasn't dismissing what you said if that's how it came off. I was trying to frame this particular behavior as being part of the Clans' overarching (and ultimately self-defeating) theme of sabotaging their own successes. They simply cannot help themselves; it's baked into their very foundation.

Come to think of it, isn't this the sort of thing the Jaguars kind of relied on in the Homeworlds just to get by? Taking what they needed from the other Clans rather than focusing on self-sufficiency?
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Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #301 on: 20 September 2024, 08:26:13 »
In the WoR was quite a massacre among the Clans`warship fleets.
Somehow I doubt that all ships being lost have been completely. I think the Home Clans are going to do some serious salvage operatin to get as much as they can.

Let it complete hulks they can repair or equipment (weapons, armor, electronics et cetera)
 Do you know if -kF drives can be repaired or recycled?
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #302 on: 20 September 2024, 09:26:04 »
Oh no, I wasn't dismissing what you said if that's how it came off. I was trying to frame this particular behavior as being part of the Clans' overarching (and ultimately self-defeating) theme of sabotaging their own successes. They simply cannot help themselves; it's baked into their very foundation.

Come to think of it, isn't this the sort of thing the Jaguars kind of relied on in the Homeworlds just to get by? Taking what they needed from the other Clans rather than focusing on self-sufficiency?

Yeah that's what the Jaguars usually did. And maybe they were one of the most driving forces of the entire Clan system? Though if the opening article from woR is to be believed a lot of clans actually don't produce enough to last a month. Of course that was AFTEr the invasion. Makes me wonder how iut was before the invasion. I can see the Spirits simply skirt by thanks to their thrifty nature. The Sharks never had that problem because "Merchants know best". The Falcons , Wolves and Adders most likely too, with one being a kind of banker Clan and the other two very pragmatic
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #303 on: 20 September 2024, 10:02:11 »
....
Come to think of it, isn't this the sort of thing the Jaguars kind of relied on in the Homeworlds just to get by? Taking what they needed from the other Clans rather than focusing on self-sufficiency?

Correct

Jaguar economy was for all intents and purposes dead since before political century kicked off and they subsisted by pretty much being oversized pirates with a flimsy coat of political legitimacy

Tortuga Dominion of the Clan Homeworlds only much bigger and with more guns which forced others to treat them seriously

They should have listened to old Franky Osis, despite his reputation he was very smart person who knew what he was talking about, he was a scholar before he became warrior



« Last Edit: 20 September 2024, 10:18:22 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #304 on: 20 September 2024, 10:12:40 »
Yeah that's what the Jaguars usually did. And maybe they were one of the most driving forces of the entire Clan system? Though if the opening article from woR is to be believed a lot of clans actually don't produce enough to last a month. Of course that was AFTEr the invasion. Makes me wonder how iut was before the invasion. I can see the Spirits simply skirt by thanks to their thrifty nature. The Sharks never had that problem because "Merchants know best". The Falcons , Wolves and Adders most likely too, with one being a kind of banker Clan and the other two very pragmatic

Hellions were prolific raiders however unlike Jaguars they took great pride in looking after the wellbeing of the "pack" so they were able to maintain levels of fiscal and social stability that Jaguars couldn't even dream about plus they had genuine production output that was supplemented by raids

Scorpions sourced significant percentage of their food from oceans of Dagda and they could rely on large raw and processed material industry whose output could easily be traded for anything else they would need


« Last Edit: 20 September 2024, 10:16:03 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #305 on: 21 September 2024, 08:00:10 »
Oh no, I wasn't dismissing what you said if that's how it came off. I was trying to frame this particular behavior as being part of the Clans' overarching (and ultimately self-defeating) theme of sabotaging their own successes. They simply cannot help themselves; it's baked into their very foundation.

Ah.  :smilie_happy_thumbup:

Quote
Come to think of it, isn't this the sort of thing the Jaguars kind of relied on in the Homeworlds just to get by? Taking what they needed from the other Clans rather than focusing on self-sufficiency?

That is the classic image, and one well-grounded in the fiction. The thought of the Jaguars developing their own colonies doesn't mesh with that image as I see it, though I would be singularly delighted to have some future piece of fiction upend that, but they had some really choice territories and industries to their name that most-likely came at the expense of their brother Clans. With the depiction of the Jaguars being one of the biggest Clans in the Homeworlds yet as restrictive as they were, I imagine Trials were declared over the smallest of matters and infractions real and imagined just to keep the Warriors occupied and their system running. Jaguar Merchants I picture as being a caste of repo-men, sliding in to hook up whatever the Warriors just won and sliding back out again. Though if I recall Invading Clans right, they were able enough to solve some of the initial trouble the Jaguars had in their OZ in the beginning of REVIVAL.

Yeah that's what the Jaguars usually did. And maybe they were one of the most driving forces of the entire Clan system? Though if the opening article from woR is to be believed a lot of clans actually don't produce enough to last a month.

Yeah, I think so too. If every individual Trial created ripples across the surface fabric of the whole of Clan society, I'm certain the Jaguars were tossing boulders for most of their existence, especially after the Mongoose Absorption and the Warden/Crusade divide.

Jaguar economy was for all intents and purposes dead since before political century kicked off and they subsisted by pretty much being oversized pirates with a flimsy coat of political legitimacy
Tortuga Dominion of the Clan Homeworlds only much bigger and with more guns which forced others to treat them seriously
They should have listened to old Franky Osis, despite his reputation he was very smart person who knew what he was talking about, he was a scholar before he became warrior

 :smilie_character_fishing: They did listen to Franklin Osis, though. It's why they turned out the way they did, and enjoyed the position of strength they had for most of their existence. Op. Klondike is very clear on that.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #306 on: 21 September 2024, 10:00:30 »
....
 :smilie_character_fishing: They did listen to Franklin Osis, though. It's why they turned out the way they did, and enjoyed the position of strength they had for most of their existence. Op. Klondike is very clear on that.

Like a favorite dish, war loses its flavor when tasted too often. - Franklin Osis

This is not the wisdom that would be understood by people who launch military campaigns every time they are short on cheese sandwiches


Plus book Invading Clans clearly states that he understood importance of civilians for survival of the Clan, another thing ignored by those that came after him






Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #307 on: 21 September 2024, 11:06:48 »
But do not forget, the Jaguars had one of the best military R&D of all Clans. Just look at the excellent Omnimechs they designed. And the Protomechs.

I have ever wondered why the Star Adders being described as pragmatic and quite economic powerful Clans have had invented only so few new Mech designs.
.
Of Omnimech I can only remember the Adder and the Blood Asp
« Last Edit: 21 September 2024, 11:12:42 by Gaiiten »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #308 on: 21 September 2024, 15:34:39 »
But do not forget, the Jaguars had one of the best military R&D of all Clans. Just look at the excellent Omnimechs they designed. And the Protomechs.

I have ever wondered why the Star Adders being described as pragmatic and quite economic powerful Clans have had invented only so few new Mech designs.
.
Of Omnimech I can only remember the Adder and the Blood Asp

Remember the Clans fell into a technological stagnation after their Golden Century. The warriors decided "everything of value has been researched" and suddenly their scientists were limited into watching "the boring mating ritual of protein strands". Most of the Clan's new weapons and Mechs came after contact with the IS forces and their tactics (and even more being shocked by the pace the IS was able to field new weaponry, Mechs and battle armor)
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Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #309 on: 21 September 2024, 16:58:52 »
Welp, I apparently forgot that Londerholm is described in Invading Clans as having been colonized by the Jaguars in 2892, so there's that.

This is not the wisdom that would be understood by people who launch military campaigns every time they are short on cheese sandwiches

Not sure he ever took his own advice given how thoroughly he infused his Clan with that direct and brutal methodology that he lived by, and you give that quote (only attributed to Osis in that book) a great deal more precedence than later works would. Op Klondike outright calls Franklin Osis "the most violent and brutal of all Kerensky's followers" with examples provided to reinforce. You'll note that Invading states modern day SJ Warriors used that quote as well, so it wasn't wholly lost on them.

Quote
Plus book Invading Clans clearly states that he understood importance of civilians for survival of the Clan, another thing ignored by those that came after him

I recall you've used/misquoted this before. That passage directly ties the value of civilians into their ability to serve the Warrior Caste in each and every example given on their efforts. It is not much of a leap at all to see how this mindset permeated into exactly what we saw in contemporary portrayals. Subsequent Khans lost some of that appreciation for the lower castes' efforts, but the lower castes continued to support their Warriors even still.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #310 on: 22 September 2024, 05:37:32 »
But do not forget, the Jaguars had one of the best military R&D of all Clans. Just look at the excellent Omnimechs they designed. And the Protomechs.

I have ever wondered why the Star Adders being described as pragmatic and quite economic powerful Clans have had invented only so few new Mech designs.
.
Of Omnimech I can only remember the Adder and the Blood Asp

They developed the Kokou tank, which was eventually phased out. The Corona BA. They developed the Heavy Lasers which is no joke considering how common that family of weapons has become throughout the Clans. The Hellfire, the Burrock.

The Adders always get called out for being pragmatic and this next bit is a real testament to that. When TRO Project Phoenix came out, the Adders were noted for making heavy use of several of these these updated machines, particularly the Marauder IIC 2 they developed themselves, as well as the Warhammer IIC 4 (developed by the Sharks) that they adopted heavy use of, which they pushed into the front-line in their fight against the Spirits, as a strategic play when they initiated their operations on York. Even if/when the Spirits won a Trial, they won it against a supposedly inferior "non-Omni" machine, which by traditional Clan thinking meant it was a tainted or just lesser victory. The Adders equipped entire Clusters of Beta Galaxy (a front-line unit) with these types of machines in their fight against the Spirits on York. That also means that a lot of front-line warriors checked their ego, embraced that pragmatism, and accepted driving these non-Omni machines. Which is impressive because the Clan norm at the time was that front-line warriors drove Omnis, period. To be given anything else was seen as an insult in many Clans, worthy of starting a Trial over, but the Adders seemed to have either not have that problem, or had found a way to convince their warriors of the superiority of this plan. FM: CC refers to Adder warriors thinking in terms of strategic victory, rather than tactical, and I think this might be a good example of that, in addition to the more obvious pragmatism to it. The machine is not an Omni but is otherwise excellent, so I'll use it (pragmatic).

Beyond just the campaign for York, the Adder willingness to invest so much into improving their second-line forces with better/newer machines equipped with advanced technology is another example of pragmatic (and strategic) thinking. The landscape was shifting at the time, fighting was heating up in the Homeworlds, and the Adders probably recognized that their second-line forces would face more fighting in the predictable future and needed a boost.

So the Adders didn't develop a lot of the Omnis that were out there, no, but they weren't idle either. They just focused on a different set of priorities. They were also quite willing to adopt a design developed by another Clan (like a lot of the 3050 Omnis) if it did the job and fit with the Adder model of warfare. That once again strikes me as pragmatic.

A great example from a different Clan is the Nova Cat Khan Severen Leroux. He flew a Scytha, a Falcon-designed fighter. Most writeups on him as a person point to this as an expression of his flexible and pragmatic thinking. Era Report: 3052 said of him something like "if a tool did the job, he used it."

Apply similar logic to the Adders, add in the fact that they had a large touman equipped with a large number of heavy/assault 'mechs, and you start to understand their approach to things pre-3050. They let other Clans who were hyper-focused on developing the next best-OmniMech do the R&D while the Adders then concentrated their resources on acquiring the existing designs they wanted to deploy in their touman in large numbers. Then later in the post-3050 environment they adapted to emerging new technologies (and contributed some of their own to the mix, like the heavy lasers), new ways of thinking (the Corona in the general reevaluation of specialized BA designs among the Clans). They also made some selective choices about which 'mechs they would employ against the new hated enemy, the Spirits, based on strategic thinking, rather than warrior ego.
 
Meanwhile other aggressive Clans focused on what the hot-blooded young warriors wanted, unveiling the next signature OmniMech which would terrorize the battlefield. They developed lots of signature OmniMechs, yet neglected some other areas like the second-line forces and campaign logistics.

I'm not saying the Adder approach was perfect. But I can respect it.
« Last Edit: 22 September 2024, 06:15:36 by Alan Grant »

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #311 on: 22 September 2024, 06:20:17 »
Excellent analysis.  :smilie_happy_thumbup:
You shows how good the Adders have been in playing the long game.
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #312 on: 22 September 2024, 10:52:45 »
Welp, I apparently forgot that Londerholm is described in Invading Clans as having been colonized by the Jaguars in 2892, so there's that.

Not sure he ever took his own advice given how thoroughly he infused his Clan with that direct and brutal methodology that he lived by, and you give that quote (only attributed to Osis in that book) a great deal more precedence than later works would. Op Klondike outright calls Franklin Osis "the most violent and brutal of all Kerensky's followers" with examples provided to reinforce. You'll note that Invading states modern day SJ Warriors used that quote as well, so it wasn't wholly lost on them.

I recall you've used/misquoted this before. That passage directly ties the value of civilians into their ability to serve the Warrior Caste in each and every example given on their efforts. It is not much of a leap at all to see how this mindset permeated into exactly what we saw in contemporary portrayals. Subsequent Khans lost some of that appreciation for the lower castes' efforts, but the lower castes continued to support their Warriors even still.

I need said that Franklin was fluffy person, I said he was smart person

And yes, he was a blunt brute during KLONDIKE but stuff I'm referring to was from much later in his life when he was older and wiser




Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #313 on: 22 September 2024, 14:20:55 »
I need said that Franklin was fluffy person, I said he was smart person

The fluff is how it is, my guy. To quote Operation Klondike's Franklin Osis bio:
Quote
Osis could never escape the brutality and violence of his life on Eden and his time on Circe, and as a result his Clan took on similar characteristics, becoming the most violent and brutal of Kerensky’s followers
Emphasis mine.

The Adders always get called out for being pragmatic and this next bit is a real testament to that. When TRO Project Phoenix came out, the Adders were noted for making heavy use of several of these these updated machines, particularly the Marauder IIC 2 they developed themselves, as well as the Warhammer IIC 4 (developed by the Sharks) that they adopted heavy use of, which they pushed into the front-line in their fight against the Spirits, as a strategic play when they initiated their operations on York. Even if/when the Spirits won a Trial, they won it against a supposedly inferior "non-Omni" machine, which by traditional Clan thinking meant it was a tainted or just lesser victory. The Adders equipped entire Clusters of Beta Galaxy (a front-line unit) with these types of machines in their fight against the Spirits on York. That also means that a lot of front-line warriors checked their ego, embraced that pragmatism, and accepted driving these non-Omni machines. Which is impressive because the Clan norm at the time was that front-line warriors drove Omnis, period. To be given anything else was seen as an insult in many Clans, worthy of starting a Trial over, but the Adders seemed to have either not have that problem, or had found a way to convince their warriors of the superiority of this plan. FM: CC refers to Adder warriors thinking in terms of strategic victory, rather than tactical, and I think this might be a good example of that, in addition to the more obvious pragmatism to it. The machine is not an Omni but is otherwise excellent, so I'll use it (pragmatic).

An excellent post all around, but this point has been one that I've long considered to be an instance of serendipity for the Adders. I think this was at least as much indulging desires to insult as well as harm their new Spirit enemies. There's a couple instances in WoR that mention "Adder-centric thinking" particularly when in came to the Spirits, and I think this may well be an offshoot of that. No contest your points are valid, but I like to believe the Adders wanted to slap the Spirits in the face by relying on capable new BattleMechs and new Warriors in their reconstituted Beta Galaxy, and it was just a cherry on top that they got to look pragmatic AF while doing it.  :grin:
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #314 on: 22 September 2024, 16:12:45 »
An excellent post all around, but this point has been one that I've long considered to be an instance of serendipity for the Adders. I think this was at least as much indulging desires to insult as well as harm their new Spirit enemies. There's a couple instances in WoR that mention "Adder-centric thinking" particularly when in came to the Spirits, and I think this may well be an offshoot of that. No contest your points are valid, but I like to believe the Adders wanted to slap the Spirits in the face by relying on capable new BattleMechs and new Warriors in their reconstituted Beta Galaxy, and it was just a cherry on top that they got to look pragmatic AF while doing it.  :grin:

Not to mention while the Spirits did destroy those Adder Mechs in high numbers but as it is they only won against "mere" secondline machine (and as I mentioned before that was the same point the Sharks used as argument when they began selling secondline Mechs to Is buyers. The warrior counts not the machine). I think one of the biggest points in startegic thinking was how the Adders handled the Wars of Reaving. They allied with the Vipers but let the Vipers do all the dirty work while reaping the benefits by being not as manic as the Vipers. That went so far as that the Khan willingly sacrificed himself so that the Vipers would fall. Or him supporting the Horses with their exodus for some strategic resouirces as well as a forward base for Periphery and Is scouting missions. Heck the Adders offered the Wolves their help for building Wolf's Dragoons as they saw the idea as the right one: gather more intelligence before comitting an invasion that would take years. And din't they also bid very conservatively for the original invasion knowing how difficult it would become?
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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #315 on: 22 September 2024, 19:21:40 »
But do not forget, the Jaguars had one of the best military R&D of all Clans. Just look at the excellent Omnimechs they designed. And the Protomechs.

I have ever wondered why the Star Adders being described as pragmatic and quite economic powerful Clans have had invented only so few new Mech designs.
.
Of Omnimech I can only remember the Adder and the Blood Asp

maybe because pragmaticly it was easier to simply trial for designs that existed after they proved themselves?
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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #316 on: 23 September 2024, 02:10:02 »
Excellent analysis.  :smilie_happy_thumbup:
You shows how good the Adders have been in playing the long game.

Seconding this, Alan knocked it out of the park again


Developing omnimech is not something that's necessary as long as you are able to procure them from elsewhere

Clans which didn't develop omnis but kept their production and procurement balanced still managed to thrive

Healthy local supply of seconds line mechs supplemented by moderate amounts of omnis (local or imported) is more than enough if you plan ahead and play smart

Plus designs like Hellbringer, Stormcrow and Kingfisher were pretty much "open source" or close enough so those three alone could make a good backbone of front line units, after that you could sprinkle in some fancier models you purchased elsewhere and you are golden

This is where having friends (or not having too many enemies) comes into play, if a Clan which builds latest omnis likes you (or at least doesn't hate you) you can let merchants handle everything

Just make sure you have something to sell, this is where non-military undertakings of your Clan come into play

If you fail to do this you will either end up as Jaguars who had to raid for everything (or build everything in-house) or as Spirits who ended up working with no omnis (and other stuff too) because they had neither the money nor good will


« Last Edit: 23 September 2024, 02:12:26 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #317 on: 23 September 2024, 02:21:57 »
An excellent post all around, but this point has been one that I've long considered to be an instance of serendipity for the Adders. I think this was at least as much indulging desires to insult as well as harm their new Spirit enemies. There's a couple instances in WoR that mention "Adder-centric thinking" particularly when in came to the Spirits, and I think this may well be an offshoot of that. No contest your points are valid, but I like to believe the Adders wanted to slap the Spirits in the face by relying on capable new BattleMechs and new Warriors in their reconstituted Beta Galaxy, and it was just a cherry on top that they got to look pragmatic AF while doing it.  :grin:

I mean, it outright says that this is the case in the fluff material for those secondline Mechs (see Warhammer IIC 4 in TRO Project Phoenix), that the Adders specifically chose to fight them in what they consider to be lesser Mechs to literally add insult to injury.

That went so far as that the Khan willingly sacrificed himself so that the Vipers would fall.

Point of order, Stanislov N'Buta didn't "willingly sacrifice" himself; he merely guessed that Brett Andrews would have a repeat performance of his slaying of Angus Labov after he had his Vir Kotto moment (any Babylon 5 fan worth their salt knows that the Stanislov/Brett scene was inspired by Vir and Londo's scene on the show) because Brett gonna Brett, and planned accordingly. Even then I highly doubt that Stanislov guessed that Brett would just outright murder him instead of declaring a Trial against him.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2024, 02:30:18 by tassa_kay »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #318 on: 23 September 2024, 03:49:15 »
Point of order, Stanislov N'Buta didn't "willingly sacrifice" himself; he merely guessed that Brett Andrews would have a repeat performance of his slaying of Angus Labov after he had his Vir Kotto moment (any Babylon 5 fan worth their salt knows that the Stanislov/Brett scene was inspired by Vir and Londo's scene on the show) because Brett gonna Brett, and planned accordingly. Even then I highly doubt that Stanislov guessed that Brett would just outright murder him instead of declaring a Trial against him.

WoR stated that Stanislov anticipated his death. Page 190 "The call for the Vipers' Annihilation was precipitated by Stanislov's death an action he anticipated" So imho it seems as if he was ready to sacrifice himself to destroy that one rival preventing the Adders from claiming dominion over the remaining Homeworld Clans. Imagine if Andrews had not to become bonkers but instead defeated and killed Stanislov in a fair trial. Then what? The Adders call for a Reaving of the Vipers would have been voided and the story goes into another direction.
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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #319 on: 23 September 2024, 06:12:36 »
To be honest the entire scene is weird and doesn't conform to Clan Law. But I think that's also part of the point and part of the story.

TLDR: Andrews pulling the pistol and killing N'Buta wasn't part of a Trial of Refusal, he did it before the Trial started, while the forces to be arranged against him had yet to be assembled. My theory is that he's just enraged beyond reason at the realization that N'Buta is betraying him and the Vipers and possibly had always planned to do so.

More long-winded explanation:

In a Grand Council Trial of Refusal, the proportion of forces to each side is a reflection of the vote. It would have been a larger force of one or more Clans fighting off against a smaller force of Vipers. That's the rules and regs way of doing things.

The vote to reave the Vipers passes, only the Spirits vote against. Brett Andrews declares a Trial of Refusal and bids himself.

Stanislov N'Buta offers to fight, unaugmented. What SHOULD have happened next is the selection or volunteering of individuals to form the rest of the group that would fight Andrews. Perhaps N'Buta thought he would be joined by some other unaugmented Khans, or some warriors from his Clan. But fighting himself 1-v-1 would be giving Andrews an unnecessary and unwarranted advantage as the vote wasn't that close. What should have been happening at this moment is the assembling of other warriors to fight Andrews before the Trial of Refusal actually began.

But we don't really know, because the next thing WoR says, Andrews pulls the pistol and shoots him. Possibly interrupting/stopping whatever might have happened next.

That's how I read the scene. There's a missing piece in there, that of organizing the force (more than 1 warrior for sure) meant to fight Andrews. Which makes me think Andrews pulling the pistol and killing N'Buta effectively happened before the Trial of Refusal had started.

My take on this, is the writers are trying to convey that this wasn't a real Trial of Refusal. Andrews had just listened to N'Buta's passionate speech and logical argument that the Vipers should be reaved. Andrews has realized that the Adders were just using the Vipers and using Brett Andrews, and perhaps always intended to dispose of the Vipers too, before the end. He's so enraged at this revelation, at the betrayal at the core of it all, that he just murders N'Buta.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2024, 06:33:51 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #320 on: 23 September 2024, 07:16:06 »
WoR stated that Stanislov anticipated his death. Page 190 "The call for the Vipers' Annihilation was precipitated by Stanislov's death an action he anticipated" So imho it seems as if he was ready to sacrifice himself to destroy that one rival preventing the Adders from claiming dominion over the remaining Homeworld Clans. Imagine if Andrews had not to become bonkers but instead defeated and killed Stanislov in a fair trial. Then what? The Adders call for a Reaving of the Vipers would have been voided and the story goes into another direction.

There's a big difference between "anticipating his death" and "sacrificing himself". But Alan explains it better than I can.

My take on this, is the writers are trying to convey that this wasn't a real Trial of Refusal. Andrews had just listened to N'Buta's passionate speech and logical argument that the Vipers should be reaved. Andrews has realized that the Adders were just using the Vipers and using Brett Andrews, and perhaps always intended to dispose of the Vipers too, before the end. He's so enraged at this revelation, at the betrayal at the core of it all, that he just murders N'Buta.

I wouldn't even call this a take, this is what happened. Hence why the Grand Council immediately strips Andrews of the ilKhanship, and why Hannibal Banacek flat-out ignores Andrews' attempt to declare another Trial and just murders him in turn. Instant karma.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #321 on: 24 September 2024, 05:58:57 »
One point to consider though: Andrews was showing signs of scizophrenia at the end. So I assume that n'Buta was willing to lay down his life to get the Vipers out of the picture by relying on Andrews anger and mental instability getting the better of him and then killing N'Buta. And what would have happened if Andrews had won if the trial would have gone according to the rules? Would the Adders die next? This was imho a suicide ploy.
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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #322 on: 24 September 2024, 07:01:09 »
You may even consider that N`Buta had worked with Andrews for years. While forming the Snake Alliance and doing joint military operations.
He should have known Andrews very well and what to expect after attacking him in such a way he did in the Grand Council.

So I think he knew that he would die. Maybe it was his surkairede for his role in the disastrous WoR.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #323 on: 24 September 2024, 07:43:59 »
N'Buta himself was certainly putting himself on the line, but I don't think that equates to putting the Adders as a Clan on the line.

If Andrews had let the Trial of Refusal play out and won legitimately. He would still be facing the reality that the other Clans had turned on him (all except the Spirits voted in favor of reaving the Vipers) and the Steel Vipers and declared them tainted (basically). I struggle to recall any instances of someone facing the challenge of being tainted who succeeded in overcoming it and not ultimately having to depart the Homeworlds.

To my mind, what would have followed is Brett Andrews being forced out of the ilKhan chair one way or another, and then an avalanche of tainted challenges against the Vipers. Perhaps as a Clan at the Grand Council level leveling yet another accusation against them (perhaps abjurement this time), just as likely tainted challenges against individual warriors and units of the Steel Vipers. Either way the Vipers are forced to stand and fight and die or run away. Just like the other "tainted" Clans were.

This was a repeated theme throughout the WoR era. Once the other Clans decided you were tainted. They used/abused the letter of the law to destroy you or make you leave. No one overcame it. Any victories against this rising tide were temporary at best.
« Last Edit: 24 September 2024, 07:50:37 by Alan Grant »

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #324 on: 24 September 2024, 10:57:44 »
Maybe the Vipers would have tried to escape to the Inner Sphere?
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #325 on: 24 September 2024, 13:45:32 »
But could another Clan try again for the same case? Like repeat it over and over and over and over? You would think that if the Vipers beat every trial they would proove themselves not being tainted and rather paint the aggressive Clan as being tainted because they would not adhere to the rules.

And those Clans that were called tainted had one weakness: split between the Homeworlds and their Is holdings. And not to forget: the Vipers were (next to the Adders) the strongest Clan. If no real cooperation between the rest happens they would just grind each other to dust. Heck I could see the Spirits just watch from the sidelines cheering the Vipers on to grind the Adders to a mush (even though the Spirits suffered greatly against the Vipers just at the closing stage of the WoR)
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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #326 on: 24 September 2024, 14:20:34 »
Maybe the Vipers would have tried to escape to the Inner Sphere?
Happy reunion with the Spheroid Clans  :evil:

Ah yes, all those friends they have slandered and exiled, what a warm reunion that would have been  :laugh:



But could another Clan try again for the same case? Like repeat it over and over and over and over? You would think that if the Vipers beat every trial they would proove themselves not being tainted and rather paint the aggressive Clan as being tainted because they would not adhere to the rules.....

With the council vote being so overwhelmingly against them it simply could not happen, they would get dogpiled in any kind of trial, there would be no getting out of that


Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #327 on: 24 September 2024, 14:32:57 »
But could another Clan try again for the same case? Like repeat it over and over and over and over? You would think that if the Vipers beat every trial they would proove themselves not being tainted and rather paint the aggressive Clan as being tainted because they would not adhere to the rules.

And those Clans that were called tainted had one weakness: split between the Homeworlds and their Is holdings. And not to forget: the Vipers were (next to the Adders) the strongest Clan. If no real cooperation between the rest happens they would just grind each other to dust. Heck I could see the Spirits just watch from the sidelines cheering the Vipers on to grind the Adders to a mush (even though the Spirits suffered greatly against the Vipers just at the closing stage of the WoR)

Basically you are insisting upon a speculative rabbit hole where the Vipers take on all comers and always win. The problem is that once deem tainted, the rest of Clan society basically refuses to acknowledge you or cooperate with you, or work with you. No more exchanges of genetic material, no more trading, no more Zell in Trials, no more seats on the Grand Council. The other Clans are welcome to flatten you with orbital bombardment because you are not a legitimate Clan.

It could happen in a concentrated combined-Clan assault (like in canon) or in a slower grind of many individual Clans pecking away at the Vipers from every angle. But to me the outcome is the same. Keep in mind in canon the Vipers, once they had no allies left, didn't come anywhere close to holding back the tide of the other Clans once they had been deemed tainted. The battle wasn't a close thing, it was very one-sided (even after they abandoned most of their enclaves to concentrate their forces). Even if you remove the Spirit forces from the mix, it's still one-sided. If they tried to do it while holding onto all their territory (in canon they abandon most of their enclaves before the combined-Clan assault begins) they'll be even more spread out and easier to pick apart.

The whole "tainted" thing had very little place in Clan Law except what Brett Andrews put there, and he didn't put much. Meaning it doesn't even have much check-and-balance against abuse. Meaning the other Clans are free to use it to abuse the Vipers. A lot would appear to hinge on what the Adders want to do, and the Adders are no friends of the Vipers at that point. (See the Stone Lions to see what might happen if the Adders deem you a friend)

During the WoR era what we see is that once deemed tainted, you and your Clan are considered outcasts deserving of death and treated accordingly. The outcomes are all bad unless the Vipers truly annihilate every other Clan and are truly the last ones standing.

Anything else is extreme speculation of scenarios far beyond what we see in WoR. That can be interesting but only to a point because it drifts just too far from canon events. IMO we've reached that point here. If you truly want to daydream the what-if of Brett Andrews winning every Trial, and the Vipers winning every trial and surviving, by all means you are welcome to that bit of head-fan fiction, but I'm not inclined to participate in discussion on that any deeper down that particular rabbit hole. Simply because history wouldn't change if Brett Andrews won the Trial of Refusal. He and his "tainted" Clan would subsequently have to win EVERY battle thereafter, and prevail against every attempt at an all-out assault w/orbital bombardment that would devastate their enclaves, bases and shipyards, all of it. At some point this becomes very unrealistic to me, especially when compared to what actually happened to them in canon.

I'm happy to discuss other things. But I'm finished with this particular topic.
« Last Edit: 24 September 2024, 17:00:06 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #328 on: 24 September 2024, 21:21:30 »
And not to forget: the Vipers were (next to the Adders) the strongest Clan. If no real cooperation between the rest happens they would just grind each other to dust. Heck I could see the Spirits just watch from the sidelines cheering the Vipers on to grind the Adders to a mush

The Adders possessed an exponentially larger touman (twelve Galaxies, thirteen WarShips and the will to use orbital bombardment as needed) at the end of the WoR than the Vipers, who lost three of their six remaining Galaxies and their vaunted Leviathan in the final assault on the Coyotes. The Vipers' flagship during their Annihilation was a friggin' Congress, which should tell you all you need to know about the abysmal state of their post-WoR navy. The Adders had also perfected the art of attrition warfare in their years of conflict against the Spirits. The idea of the Vipers grinding the Adders to dust is frankly laughable; the Adders are the undisputed masters of that form of conflict amongst the Clans.
« Last Edit: 24 September 2024, 21:26:16 by tassa_kay »
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Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #329 on: 09 November 2024, 07:40:47 »
After some time reading again the descriptions of the Star Adders secondline galaxies, I have gotten the impression that they might get very close to the combined warfare Regimental Combat Groups:

Some Battlemech clusters (Sentinel or Gatekeeper) plus some conventional clusters (Scales). This means besides Battlemechs, Elementals and aerospace fighters a secondline galaxy does have quite a large number of combat vehicles and conventional infantry.

That the Adders do use them in combined warfare we have been told in some examples (Burrock Absorption, battles on York and in the WoR).
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