Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST

[Empyrus]

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3332/turkina-prime
Perhaps the Turkina should be added to Clan Cloud Cobra for Civil War and maybe Jihad era.
Per TRO3058U, page 192:
"Other Clans like the Cloud Cobras, Coyotes and Fire Mandrills traded with the Falcons for the design or oth-erwise took them  as spoils of war in the escalating series of clashes in the homeworlds."

[Sartris]

It’s already available to the cobras via HW General during the Jihad. It’s CW distribution will be evaluated as part of a much broader review we are conducting

[Empyrus]

Figures i missed something. And also completely forgot TRO3058U has in-universe date of 3070 or so.

[GoldBishop]

Inquiring about the Kestrel VTOL Infantry capacity posted on the MUL

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1769/kestrel-vtol-standard
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1765/kestrel-vtol-medevac

After looking in my copy of the TRO3058_Uu and confirming errata posted here https://bg.battletech.com/forums/errata/record-sheets-3058-unabridged/ , should the Infantry Capacity be 3.5 instead of 3.0?

I did not find any rounding requirements in the Alpha Strike Companion (Conversion Rules, p.125), but figured I would ask here first.
(other versions of the Kestrel with transport capacity may also need looked at.  [MedVac] came up in a conversation and was the first one I noticed the discrepancy in)

[nckestrel]

EDIT: correction, checking..

And, Kestrel's updated. Thanks.  (SL) also udpated to IT1.5.

[GoldBishop]

Checking PV for discrepancies
Main Gauche IFV
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5727/main-gauche-light-support-tank-ifv
Badger Transport Prime
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/207/badger-tracked-transport-prime

Both have virtually identical stats, save for the Badger having their weapons mounted in the turret and being an Omni:
Armor 3, Structure 2, S/M/L = 2/2/0; IT4

I had calculated both their PV to be 18.5 or 19 when rounded:
OFV = 8
DFV = 9 (8.88~)
MV = 1.5

Badger is currently listed at 21 PV.  Is this correct?  Did I miss an Omni/Turret cost update?

[nckestrel]

19 PV for Badger is correct, I've updated the card. Thanks.

[Sartris]

The MUL is currently experiencing technical difficulties. The admin has been pinged. No ETA for a fix. Apologies for the inconvenience

[MarauderD]

No ETA for a fox.

I'd say the fox is the likely culprit.

[Sartris]

and we're back.

[Middcore]

and we're back.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I notice that the Archer C 2 and Blackjack C don't yet have any availability data.

[Sartris]

Correct. They haven’t been assigned any

[BlackLanner05]

Speaking of Clan Coyote, can anyone tell me the original source for the Nightstar that is given to them in the Early Succession War era MUL? What book did this come from?

The only other Clan that ever gets a Nightstar in the MUL is Widowmaker, and that no doubt comes from pg. 6 of the Turning Points Widowmaker Absorption book random table.

Since the Nightstar was a fairly mainstream Royal SLDF design, shouldn't it really be available to basically every Clan (i.e. HW Clan General) from the Early Succession War era all the way through to the Clan Invasion era and beyond?

Indeed, in the Operation Klondike random table, the Nightstar is listed on pg. 147 in the B and C columns as available for general Clan use. Because of this, it should be HW Clan General for the Early Succession War era at the very least.

Logically speaking, this availability should extend beyond that as well. Why would all the Nightstars be mothballed while the other SLDF stalwarts like the inferior Crockett and King Crab continue to persist on as mainstays of Clan garrison units? The Nightstar even looks like it inspired the design of later Clan mechs.

[GreekFire]

Speaking of Clan Coyote, can anyone tell me the original source for the Nightstar that is given to them in the Early Succession War era MUL? What book did this come from?

The only other Clan that ever gets a Nightstar in the MUL is Widowmaker, and that no doubt comes from pg. 6 of the Turning Points Widowmaker Absorption book random table.

Since the Nightstar was a fairly mainstream Royal SLDF design, shouldn't it really be available to basically every Clan (i.e. HW Clan General) from the Early Succession War era all the way through to the Clan Invasion era and beyond?

Indeed, in the Operation Klondike random table, the Nightstar is listed on pg. 147 in the B and C columns as available for general Clan use. Because of this, it should be HW Clan General for the Early Succession War era at the very least.

Logically speaking, this availability should extend beyond that as well. Why would all the Nightstars be mothballed while the other SLDF stalwarts like the inferior Crockett and King Crab continue to persist on as mainstays of Clan garrison units? The Nightstar even looks like it inspired the design of later Clan mechs.

Question A: No book. Printed information on early Clan availabilities is very scarce.

Question B: We determined that the Nightstar would not be available to the Clans in later era to reconcile with a passage in the Coventry sourcebook that shows us that a Clan warrior was unable to recognize the 'Mech. For this to happen, we had to allow for extinction in the Homeworlds, limiting the initial number in Clan hands.

Statement C: The Nightstar is on the Pentagon power RATs within OP:Klondike. We can assume that these few examples were destroyed by the Clans during the assault on the Pentagon worlds.

[BlackLanner05]

Question A: No book. Printed information on early Clan availabilities is very scarce.

Question B: We determined that the Nightstar would not be available to the Clans in later era to reconcile with a passage in the Coventry sourcebook that shows us that a Clan warrior was unable to recognize the 'Mech. For this to happen, we had to allow for extinction in the Homeworlds, limiting the initial number in Clan hands.

Statement C: The Nightstar is on the Pentagon power RATs within OP:Klondike. We can assume that these few examples were destroyed by the Clans during the assault on the Pentagon worlds.

Thank you for the reply. However, the Nightstar is also on the Clan RAT in Op Klondike, not just the Pentagon Powers. It is there in both tables on two separate pages. And it obviously persists past the Pentagon Civil War because it shows up again for Clan Widowmaker in Turning Points Widowmaker Absorption.

I think the easier way to reconcile the Coventry sourcebook issue would have just gone the Project Phoenix route and explain the new I.S. manufactured Nightstars were slightly different visually. This is used to hand wave away many other issues in this time period like the Vulture.

P.S. Is the Nighstar availability to Clan Coyote therefore because someone who runs the MUL thought it would be neat? What is the source if no book?

[Sartris]

If there’s no book source, it’s internal information and not subject to dissemination

[BlackLanner05]

Fair enough I guess. But here's another one that doesn't make any sense logically:

Thunder Hawk 7X is listed in MUL as available for Burrock, and only Clan Burrock, in Early Succession War (despite being in the General Clan RAT for Operation Klondike).

Then suddenly it is HW General Clan in late Succession War. Despite being a Star League design that as far as we know was never manufactured again by the Clans.

It's implied all the Thunder Hawks disappeared and then suddenly reappeared everywhere.

[GreekFire]

P.S. Is the Nighstar availability to Clan Coyote therefore because someone who runs the MUL thought it would be neat? What is the source if no book?

The MUL team assigns availability based on a variety of factors that we do not publicly disclose.

Then suddenly it is HW General Clan in late Succession War. Despite being a Star League design that as far as we know was never manufactured again by the Clans.

Good catch, thank you. Clan availabilities pre-Invasion are still being developed at this time, so certain oddities like this may crop up from time to time. Feel free to report any others you may find.

[BlackLanner05]

Glad I could help a bit with the Thunder Hawk.

I also just found the same problem with Atlas AS7-D: present for HW Clans General in Late Succession War but not Early Succession War, despite being in Op Klondike table for the Clans. This one is slightly less problematic because I suppose the Late Succession War ones could have been brought back by Wolf's Dragoons from the Inner Sphere. Still, given how much the Clans venerated the Atlas as the mech of DeChavilier and Kerensky, I doubt they would have burned through their stockpiles in the Golden Century to the point where they all lost access to the design entirely for hundreds of years. The Atlas was relatively rare among the Clans, but not extinct. If it did go extinct, then they are literally the worst preservationists of what they claim to venerate of any people in human history. See next point.

Question B: We determined that the Nightstar would not be available to the Clans in later era to reconcile with a passage in the Coventry sourcebook that shows us that a Clan warrior was unable to recognize the 'Mech. For this to happen, we had to allow for extinction in the Homeworlds, limiting the initial number in Clan hands.

Sorry to harp on this a bit more, but how does it make sense for the Clans to forget what a Nightstar looks like? These are the descendants of Kerensky who worshipped everything about the Star League military down to its smallest detail. The Star Captain in the Coventry book who is giving the problematic account is a Jade Falcon, a Clan particularly reverent of the Star League. And the Nightstars didn't just die out with the Star League or the Pentagon Powers. Per the table in Turning Points Widowmaker Absorption, Nightstars were used by Clan Widowmaker, and the Jade Falcons were involved in their trial, specifically the First Falcon Striker Cluster fought Widowmakers on Dagda in 2834 per the scenario on pg. 24.

I mean sure, I guess the Falcons on Coventry tended to be noob warriors, and I guess the Clans could purge their targeting computers of old data for mechs they thought were long dead in order to save some hard drive space, but that doesn't seem like such a great idea in a universe where battleMechs routinely reappear after hundreds of years of not being seen.

Anyway, maybe the great and baffling mass disappearance of the Nightstar from Clan Mech stockpiles and collective memory can be explained in some future product Haha.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I mean sure, I guess the Falcons on Coventry tended to be noob warriors, and I guess the Clans could purge their targeting computers of old data for mechs they thought were long dead in order to save some hard drive space, but that doesn't seem like such a great idea in a universe where battleMechs routinely reappear after hundreds of years of not being seen.

That assumes OOC knowledge of books that wouldn't be printed for another ten to twenty years.

[Sartris]

Reminder that this isn’t a space for community debate. The case for altering the nightstar’s availability has been heard. It will remain as-is

[BlackLanner05]

OK here's another huge hole in the pre-Revival MUL: the Marauder IIC (Standard).

I know you guys are aware that a lot of your pre-Revival Clan information on MUL is really incomplete but this omission is maybe more glaring and urgent to fix than most for the following reason:

The Marauder IIC is featured as the iconic mech of Clan Mongoose on their Kickstarter challenge coin, but according to MUL, they don't even use it. This is going to baffle new players for this and future Kickstarters to no end. They go and buy the Mongoose t-shirt fan pack and then find out the mech on their fancy coin apparently was never used by their faction.

For references proving the general Clan availability of the Marauder IIC in these periods consult Era Digest Golden Century RAT pg. 21 (year for this table = 2868), Turning Points Widowmaker Absorption Trials RAT pg. 6 (year for this table = 2834), Turning Points Tokasha RAT pg. 7 (year for this table = 2921) etc. That right there is two general Clan tables showing general Marauder IIC use + specific tables for Wolf and Hell's Horses on top of the Mongoose use.

The only discrepancy in the above tables is that Ghost Bear does not have it in their Tokasha table.

But if Clan Mongoose has Marauder IICs then it's probably safe to say most everyone does since they aren't exactly known for their assault mechs.

Khan Jerome Winston (Clan Wolf) piloted a Marauder IIC on the day Nicholas Kerensky got headshotted in the Widowmaker trial per the story at the beginning of the Turning Points Widowmaker Absorption. One of the most important events in Btech history needs to be accounted for in the MUL.

Then you have this quote from IlClan Recognition Guide Vol. 6 pg.10: "While structurally similar to the original Marauder in many ways, even the advanced capabilities of Golden Century ClanTech could not avoid expanding the BattleMech’s chassis to accommodate all its improvements... Combined with its other features, this battlefield endurance secured the Marauder IIC’s role as an ideal command ’Mech, and ensured its popularity among the glory-seeking warriors who make up most of the Clan officer corps".

Finally from the original entry on the Marauder IIC in TR 3055 pg. 110: "This Marauder is on all the garrisoned Clan worlds"

So Golden Century on through Clan Invasion - check.
Ubiquitous - check

Therefore I believe the Marauder IIC (Standard) should be updated with HW Clan General availability for Early and Late Succession Wars. Or at the bare minimum, Clan Wolf, Mongoose and Hell's Horses should receive it for these periods.

[GreekFire]

I know you guys are aware that a lot of your pre-Revival Clan information on MUL is really incomplete but this omission is maybe more glaring and urgent to fix than most for the following reason:

We are not currently ready to update availabilities for Clan units first introduced in the Early Succession Wars era at this time. However, I can guarantee that we will make an announcement when this update happens.

Thank you for your patience.

[Sartris]

As a general guideline, any clan mech without availability before the Clan Invasion will be addressed in a future bulk update.

[jasonf]

I feel like these two might be opening a can of worms (because there may be multiple Clan 'Mechs with IS melee weapons out there), but Karhu Prime and Karhu C both have [IS Tech] retractable blades (TR3085).

Should they both be...
--Experimental rules
--Mixed tech?

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1752/karhu-prime
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1750/karhu-c

[GreekFire]

Per the TechManual, the retractable blade is available to both tech bases. We should be good as-is.

[jasonf]

Per the TechManual, the retractable blade is available to both tech bases. We should be good as-is.

Oops! I was going off my copy of the BMM, but it looks like there is a fix in the BMM errata document that updates it to both tech bases.

[Rainbow 6]

Iron Cheetah - according to its entry in the rec guide series the design was being sold to the Federated Suns, Lyran Commonwealth, Free Worlds League, Raven Alliance and Clan Wolf in Exile once the Republic enacted the fortress.

But the Dark Age era only has it available to Clan Sea Fox and the Republic and the IlCan Era does not show it as being available to Clan Wolf?

[Sartris]

the wolf bit requires some investigation

the others did not receive the bulk of their orders until 3151