Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard

[Church14]

I doubt the Horses would even consider a Harvest trial from "the lapdogs of that fake IlKhan surat Alaric" or something like that. They denounced the Wolves as Ilkhan so I assume they won't even bargain with anyone who is part of that.

Horses won’t accept or acknowledge Falcons and Wolves (and probably jags) as honorable enough to warrant a trial. So yeah, harvest trials seem unlikely.

[Church14]

I’ll probably be proven wrong, but I assume Tara Campbell exists post-Republic as some bridge between the surviving former Mongol Falcons and whatever super-secret Black Watch society still exists within the Northwind Highlanders.  Whether they’re called the Falcons, the Black Watch, Alaric’s Pet Bodyguards, or something else, I assume that the Falcons in that organization will be bolstered by Highlanders long enough (20-ish years minimum) that the Falcons can test out another trueborn generation or two.

While possible, I just don’t see it. Clans never once (besides Nova Cats) respected any IS claim to any legitimate legacy from the Star League. Which, given they are descended from deserters… was always amusing.

You’re also assuming that a group made up of ex-RAF have any interest in cooperating with a group they see as civilian massacring lunatics who’s outreach to NWH is someone who sold out everything she stood for.

[Jal Phoenix]

The thing to remember with Harvest Trials is that they were not normal Trials of Possession. Vlad sneakily reminded the Home Clans that the only way they would see the Inner Sphere would be as part of one of the Invaders, then announced that he would initiate Trials of Possession for strong Crusader-minded units and warriors. This caused a wave of preemptive batchalls as Crusaders across all the Clans basically petitioned other Clans to take them in. It was a good way for Warden Clans to rid themselves of Crusader elements, an vice-versa in a few cases.

The dynamic in the ilClan era is totally different. Jiyi's trial against the Ghost Bears was not a Harvest, but a standard Trial of Possession, for the sibkos. Stephanie Chistu is unlikely to benefit from announcing Harvest Trials, either. Something else will have to be done.

Disclaimer: I am not working on anything for the Falcons, and have no knowledge of the plans for them. I'm just speculating as a fan.

[wantec]

I'll echo the same disclaimer, but if the divisions in the Rasalhague Dominion continue I could see harvest trials working on the Bears that want to join the ilClan. Dominions Divided showed us some on both sides of the Dominion were willing to take it to combat to defeat their opponents, why not just take a different way to get what you want.

[Geg]

I am expecting a reconciliation and merging of the two Warrior led Falcon Factions, if not all three.   The Terrain Falcons are thin, and probably going to be even thinner after IKEO, to the point that any losses are a full percentage point of their military strength. Jiyi's Falcons are basically being held together by the strength of his personality along.   And we know from No Substitute for Victory that the Terrian Falcons are sending out forces to bring the old Falcon OZ and left behind Warriors back into the fold.  The Terran Falcons aren't just forgetting about anyone who didn't make it to Terra.  Both Stephanie and Jiyi should motivated enough to cooperate to what is left of their Clan and Tara probably doesn't care beyond keeping her prestige up in order to save the NHW from any sort of ilClan shenanigans.   The three of them feel like a team that would figure out a way to "make it work."

[Church14]

Hm. I’d forgotten about the solamha and other dregs that were left behind in the Falcon OZ. Though per HotW, there’s only a couple per planet. The one in novel was defended by two mechs.

So that’s not trivial numbers for Khan Chistu, but we’re talking what, a trinary or so at most within two jumps of Terra?

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I'll echo the same disclaimer, but if the divisions in the Rasalhague Dominion continue I could see harvest trials working on the Bears that want to join the ilClan. Dominions Divided showed us some on both sides of the Dominion were willing to take it to combat to defeat their opponents, why not just take a different way to get what you want.

I really hope the Dominion pulls together rather than splinters.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Marena of the AML will definitely tell Alaric to shove it. Stephanie… less so but she has no reason to reintegrate with the Terran Falcons. It’s why she told Jiyi no to his proposal and instead made her own. Push comes to shove I think the two of them would mutually ally against the IlKhan and Terra… and probably the Terran Falcons as well. Also ironically the Malthus Syndicate would be a good ally too, which is funny.

[Metallgewitter]

I'll echo the same disclaimer, but if the divisions in the Rasalhague Dominion continue I could see harvest trials working on the Bears that want to join the ilClan. Dominions Divided showed us some on both sides of the Dominion were willing to take it to combat to defeat their opponents, why not just take a different way to get what you want.

I think the current Bears are somewhat united. I can forsee a splintering though if they send forces to guard Terra while also fighting against the combine which might prompt the Horses to stampede through the Dominion. Remember Rasalhague is right next to New Oslo (Horses territory) and they lost a third of their forces.

The question is if the Falcon probes from Terra can even find any remaining Falcons. I would assume that several planets would stage uprisings once they realize their supposed terror is one or two Mechs strong. there were a couiple of examples in the Lyran hinterlands with several Falcons (mostly solahma or police from what I remember) being executed by raiders or rioters.

[Church14]

To reach Jiyi, Terran clans have to go through Lyrans, Tamar Pact, or Bears.

Bears aren’t explicitly enemies, but end of DD has them as not friendly either. Not sure that’s a viable path to travel. Tamar and Lyrans would open fire without much provocation at this point.

[Jellico]

I'll echo the same disclaimer, but if the divisions in the Rasalhague Dominion continue I could see harvest trials working on the Bears that want to join the ilClan. Dominions Divided showed us some on both sides of the Dominion were willing to take it to combat to defeat their opponents, why not just take a different way to get what you want.

Hmm. Harvest Trials. Do I want to be harvested by the victorious Wolves, or by well, the Falcons. What do the Falcons even offer here? They are not even the only super special elite Star League sub-Clan. The victorious Jaguars are standing right over there. If either Falcon keeps pulling this move there will be reprisals. Neither is in a position to survive a polite "back off".

[tassa_kay]

The victorious Jaguars are standing right over there.

I didn't realize "victorious" was synonymous with "given a second life by fiat".  :D

On a serious note, I'd love to see an in-universe reaction from the various surviving Clans on the Jaguars' resurrection.

[Generic Clanner 24601]

Hmm. Harvest Trials. Do I want to be harvested by the victorious Wolves, or by well, the Falcons. What do the Falcons even offer here? They are not even the only super special elite Star League sub-Clan. The victorious Jaguars are standing right over there. If either Falcon keeps pulling this move there will be reprisals. Neither is in a position to survive a polite "back off".

Neither have done so yet. They've taken bondsmen and Trials of Possession (ie normal Clan stuff), but nothing like a Harvest Trial has happened with either.

The Terran Falcons simply have their position which is actually a huge deal for the Star League obsessed Clans. Being one of the Black Watch should be a huge deal. Maybe not the immediate aftermath, I could it requiring a Trial to get into the Falcons where you have to win in order to get that right.

Jiyi has nothing to offer. He's stuck to normal Clan stuff. He probably can't get away with winning multiple sibkos at once again since the Bears and Horses are going to watch out for that.

[Church14]

I didn't realize "victorious" was synonymous with "given a second life by fiat".  :D

On a serious note, I'd love to see an in-universe reaction from the various surviving Clans on the Jaguars' resurrection.

Wolves: Okay, if Alaric said so
Terran Falcons:Okay, if Alaric said so
nuJags:Okay, if Alaric said so
Foxes: Do the nuJags have any money? No? Oh. Never mind
AML: Meh
Jiyi: not having enough people sucks, doesn’t it?
Horses: Ooh. More targets.
Spirit Cats: Hey man, when the whole ‘ilclan’ thing goes south, the protectorate is nice. We’ll get you a nice place here.

[tassa_kay]

Wolves: Okay, if Alaric said so
Terran Falcons:Okay, if Alaric said so
nuJags:Okay, if Alaric said so
Foxes: Do the nuJags have any money? No? Oh. Never mind
AML: Meh
Jiyi: not having enough people sucks, doesn’t it?
Horses: Ooh. More targets.
Spirit Cats: Hey man, when the whole ‘ilclan’ thing goes south, the protectorate is nice. We’ll get you a nice place here.

In-universe, not headcanon... and especially not your biased headcanon.  :D

[BrianDavion]

I didn't realize "victorious" was synonymous with "given a second life by fiat".  :D

On a serious note, I'd love to see an in-universe reaction from the various surviving Clans on the Jaguars' resurrection.

the Jags are a.. I don't wanna say problem, but a challange, as while they where brought back, I don;t think there was a plan for them (as I understand BLP basicly forced their ressurection through)  and someone's going to figure out what to do with it

[Natasha Kerensky]

While possible, I just don’t see it. Clans never once (besides Nova Cats) respected any IS claim to any legitimate legacy from the Star League

The Clans have never recognized the claims of the Great Houses, which turned their back on the Star League and dissolved it.  Whatever the NWH Black Watch secret society was/is, it’s never been that.

Which, given they are descended from deserters… was always amusing.

The High Council (the Great Houses) dissolved the Star League in August 2781.  Planning for Operation Exodus didn’t start until September 2784.  By definition, the former SLDF could not desert a government that didn’t and refused to exist.

You’re also assuming that a group made up of ex-RAF have any interest in cooperating with a group they see as civilian massacring lunatics who’s outreach to NWH is someone who sold out everything she stood for.

The NWH have always been realistic and flexible in their allegiances, and Tara’s dad or grandpa or whatever was the captain of the Black Watch when that secret unit re-emerged at the outset of the Second Star League.  Doesn’t mean that future products will pick it up, but the writing is on the wall.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

the Jags are a.. I don't wanna say problem, but a challange, as while they where brought back, I don;t think there was a plan for them (as I understand BLP basicly forced their ressurection through)  and someone's going to figure out what to do with it

Well, if the primary author who wanted to use them is no long using them, they don't really need to be kept around.

They could do something, like discover a plot to assassinate the IlKhan in the same way that a canary discovers poison gas in a coal mine...

[BrianDavion]

Well, if the primary author who wanted to use them is no long using them, they don't really need to be kept around.

They could do something, like discover a plot to assassinate the IlKhan in the same way that a canary discovers poison gas in a coal mine...

Personally I;'d strongly oppose killing them off again in such a manner, I'm sure there are talented intelligent writers in battletech who could do something intreasting with them.

[Church14]

Well, if the primary author who wanted to use them is no long using them, they don't really need to be kept around.

They could do something, like discover a plot to assassinate the IlKhan in the same way that a canary discovers poison gas in a coal mine...

We just had a faction die a needlessly stupid death because an author didn’t like them. As much as the nuJags’ existence is built on character Assassination and poorly thought out plot contrivances, they are going to have fans. There are people who are glad to see Jags back in any form or people who like the idea of this new clan. Killing them in a meaningless, dumb, or insulting manner is a bad idea.

Terran Falcons on the other hand, are actually expendable in a narrative sense. If they disappear, Jiyi’s group can carry the Falcon torch. Alaric’s Wolves are expendable thanks to the Empire. (Or Jiyi and Empire are expendable, it goes both ways). But the Jags are a unique group and if they go, it should be significant or meaningful.

[Blkbr2020]

the Jags are a.. I don't wanna say problem, but a challange, as while they where brought back, I don;t think there was a plan for them (as I understand BLP basicly forced their ressurection through)  and someone's going to figure out what to do with it

Touchy subject, but I find it hard to believe they were brought back only because one author wanted them back. The groundwork was there in the Jihad sourcebooks as well as in the dark age materials. It seems to me that the powers that be need to approve of authors ideas and plots before they go to print. Not arguing that the author was not shipping the plot, but I'm assuming the team was cool with the plot line.

If nothing else its interesting to see a faction that was hung out to dry at one point in time get a second chance. After the 4th Succession war books I would have never thought the CC would become an IS powerhouse later on in the timeline. (I know they were not destroyed to the extend the Jags were, but they were pretty bad off post 4th Succession War).

Having some smaller factions to root for is nice at times.........waiting on you Nova Cats in hiding. THAT is one plot line I'm salty about. Having the Nova Cats exit stage right with pretty much no coverage was not a favorite of mine.

It will be interesting to see where events lead once IKEO actually comes out. I'd pull for the Falcon factions combining (or at least 2 of the groups). Honestly my biggest worry approaching HOTW was the Falcons getting completely axed. Having them around as a faction keeps things interesting. Depending on how far the timeline goes in the next few years it would be cool to see tensions between the Wolves and Falcons heat up again. The addition of the Dragoons to the trial on Terra will always be there for a less-than-enthused rival of the Wolves to bring up.

[Geg]

The nuJags, the Terran Falcons, and interestingly the Terran Wolves as distinct from their mother factions, and have been hanging out there for a while.   I'd be more worried about the New Earth based Fidelis making it out of the up coming turmoil.

[Church14]

Touchy subject, but I find it hard to believe they were brought back only because one author wanted them back. The groundwork was there in the Jihad sourcebooks as well as in the dark age materials. It seems to me that the powers that be need to approve of authors ideas and plots before they go to print. Not arguing that the author was not shipping the plot, but I'm assuming the team was cool with the plot line.

If nothing else its interesting to see a faction that was hung out to dry at one point in time get a second chance. After the 4th Succession war books I would have never thought the CC would become an IS powerhouse later on in the timeline. (I know they were not destroyed to the extend the Jags were, but they were pretty bad off post 4th Succession War).

I may have missed something, but I think only a single author touched the surviving jags. Feels like it was one guy who, thanks the the countless hours he’d put into developing the setting, getting to push a plot line he wanted and nobody really cared enough about to say no to.

I really can’t agree on the second chance thing. At least not as implemented. These nuJags surviving was intentionally undoing the capstone of an entire era to… add absolutely nothing to a new one. I don’t mean that bombastically. Im talking from the author’s words here. It was, at best, poorly thought out and reliant on character assassination to fulfill and requires serious suspension of disbelief to accept them as a viable faction. Tell me how a (probably) less than regiment strength faction with no territory or good way to get new people survives in an era where we expect their region of space to have a hell of a lot of fighting in.

Nonetheless, it’d be shitting on the fans of the faction to just kill them off now, so I hope whoever writes the next novels about Terra manages something interesting with them.

[tassa_kay]

I may have missed something, but I think only a single author touched the surviving jags. Feels like it was one guy who, thanks the the countless hours he’d put into developing the setting, getting to push a plot line he wanted and nobody really cared enough about to say no to.

You definitely missed something, because you keep running with this "the Jags being back is all BLP and no one cared enough to say no" like it's gospel without actually having any facts to support your claim.

It was, at best, poorly thought out and reliant on character assassination to fulfill and requires serious suspension of disbelief to accept them as a viable faction.Tell me how a (probably) less than regiment strength faction with no territory or good way to get new people survives in an era where we expect their region of space to have a hell of a lot of fighting in.

Maybe you should wait to see how the story actually unfolds? (To be fair, this forum is practically defined by its knee-jerk reaction to literally everything.)

Nonetheless, it’d be shitting on the fans of the faction to just kill them off now, so I hope whoever writes the next novels about Terra manages something interesting with them.

Meh, I'm a Smoke Jaguar fan, and killing the nuJags off wouldn't be "shitting on" me... or anyone else who doesn't take their fandom to unhealthy levels of obsession.

Now, can we please circle back to the Falcons instead of turning this into the umpteenth variation-except-not-because-it's-the-same-sour-grapes-every-time of BLP-is-the-worst-ever thread? It's not adding anything to the conversation except toxicity at this point. 

[Church14]

You definitely missed something, because you keep running with this "the Jags being back is all BLP and no one cared enough to say no" like it's gospel without actually having any facts to support your claim.

Maybe you should wait to see how the story actually unfolds? (To be fair, this forum is practically defined by its knee-jerk reaction to literally everything.)

Meh, I'm a Smoke Jaguar fan, and killing the nuJags off wouldn't be "shitting on" me... or anyone else who doesn't take their fandom to unhealthy levels of obsession.

Now, can we please circle back to the Falcons instead of turning this into the umpteenth variation-except-not-because-it's-the-same-sour-grapes-every-time of BLP-is-the-worst-ever thread? It's not adding anything to the conversation except toxicity at this point.

Even if supported as a plot line by a big percentage of TPTB, it is - for what’s written so far - a terrible plot line. One that can hopefullY be made interesting going forward

Still…
Going back round to falcons, I’m curious how much the Malvina Mongol supporting survivors will affect things. Will they congregate into a particularly problematic trinary that keeps going too far and keeps tarnishing the falcons attempts as a fresh image? Do they slowly get trial of grievanced for their bloodthirsty actions? Do they slowly, eventually fold into Khan Chistu’s new vision?

[tassa_kay]

I doubt we'll get much mention of the Mongol Falcons anymore. Which is fine by me, because with Malvina dead and with Stephanie "Generic-Stock-Falcon-Character-Except-With-Knives" Chistu in charge, I don't particularly care about the Falcons anymore one way or the other. Though I suppose I'm mildly interested in seeing what new form they take in the Star League, and the AMC at least is something different and interesting, especially for such an ultra-traditionalist Clan like the Falcons.

[wantec]

Something to remember, while Blaine wrote the novel with the Jags returning and he wrote the Dark Age novel where the Fidelis appeared and were found to be Jaguar descendants, there have been at least 3 different management teams that had to approve their continued use. First was the WizKids team with Surrender Your Dreams. Second was the current team led by Ray that set forth this direction. Third was the Herb led team that wrote much of the in-between sourcebooks and could have written off the Jags if they wanted.

[tassa_kay]

Second was the current team led by Ray that set forth this direction. Third was the Herb led team that wrote much of the in-between sourcebooks and could have written off the Jags if they wanted.

Thank you for confirming something I suspected but didn't know for certain: that there was change in leadership (and direction) between the era of FM:3145 and other products (the in-between that you mentioned) and the current era. It definitely shows in some of the changes in direction I've noticed, but having it actually confirmed is nice because it helps account for a lot of the inconsistencies.

[Church14]

Something to remember, while Blaine wrote the novel with the Jags returning and he wrote the Dark Age novel where the Fidelis appeared and were found to be Jaguar descendants, there have been at least 3 different management teams that had to approve their continued use. First was the WizKids team with Surrender Your Dreams. Second was the current team led by Ray that set forth this direction. Third was the Herb led team that wrote much of the in-between sourcebooks and could have written off the Jags if they wanted.

Minor nitpick. We would know three management teams approved of the Fidelis storyline. In the decanonized ending of Surrender Your Dreams, they were loyal until the end of the Republic's most dire time, then released for they’d finally received a chance to return the favor to Stone.

Only most recently did that story right angle with no real warning during Rock of the Republic.


Okay. I’m done.


Back to falcons: if they are making moves and taking their own world near Terra, who’s betting on which one?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Northwind.