The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us

[LordTree]

I disagree that "they use whatever they can get their hands on."

Why's that? I'm genuinely curious about what they wouldn't consider using. Or am I misunderstanding what you said.

[Doc Swift]

They aren't scavengers or desperate pirates. They have multiple factory worlds. They build what they need, and in a few select cases (Seekers), what they want.

[tassa_kay]

Yeah, that's true post-Crusade... not so much pre-Crusade, though, and that's a much lengthier timeframe to take into consideration.

(Sidenote: I miss the original iteration of the Scorpion Empire so much. The ramshackle nature of things and all of the intrigues and competing forces that threatened the stability of the realm made the region so much more interesting. Here's hoping their bland little utopia gets the Dominions Divided treatment at some point.)

[LordTree]

Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification!

[Stormy]

Admittedly I enjoy the heck out of the Empire l, even if I go a little off-MUL and make it a haven for second line Clan and upgraded IS designs (at least until the WoB mechs come to plastic).

[Baldur Mekorig]

At some point, i get what Tassa_kay and LordTree mean. By the time the Scorps settleted in the castillan worlds, they had to use whatever thing they could, as their industrial base was not totally established yet. But as Doc says, by the IlClan era (and even by the Hanseatic Crusade i think) they already have a established military industrial complex strong enough to support their touman.

Altough, as the minutia-obssesed nerd that i am, i am interested in that part about the Seekers getting "what they want".

[Weirdo]

(Sidenote: I miss the original iteration of the Scorpion Empire so much. The ramshackle nature of things and all of the intrigues and competing forces that threatened the stability of the realm made the region so much more interesting. Here's hoping their bland little utopia gets the Dominions Divided treatment at some point.)

Seconded, thirded, numbered as high as needed to go.

SO. MUCH. THIS.

The Scorpions had so much potential for fun coming out of ISP3, with only the hideous name marring things. Much of what has happened since has been an immense letdown, with a few exceptions such as the Rhino, EC units, and the upgraded Blakist machines. Those are interesting.

[Gorgon]

Seconded, thirded, numbered as high as needed to go.

SO. MUCH. THIS.

The Scorpions had so much potential for fun coming out of ISP3, with only the hideous name marring things. Much of what has happened since has been an immense letdown, with a few exceptions such as the Rhino, EC units, and the upgraded Blakist machines. Those are interesting.

I get the appeal of the early Empire and it's improvised Touman. It's fun to have primitive Mechs, Protos, Clan and WoB machines all in the same force. But from a story point, it's almost necessary that the Scorpions have advanced beyond this. At least if the faction is to survive for some time. It's similar to the Mad Max feeling of the 3rd SW. It's fun, but things will have to improve for the story to continue. Otherwise, it would be hard to justify the Scorpions surviving coming in contact with the Sharks, for example. If they failed to integrate with the local population or improve and expand the industry as rapidly as Clans can, they would set them up to end like the Jaguars.

Personally, I'll look for the second-line / freebirth formations to justify anachronistic force compositions. With all the new territory the Scorpions have to keep, they can hardly justify phasing out their older or salvaged equipment, when it can serve well enough in a garrison unit. Out in the Deep Periphery, even a bunch of armed industrial Mechs can be enough to keep the people in line and pirates off your lawn.

[Weirdo]

I'm fine with the 2nd line stuff being interesting, while the front line units go all boring "Oh look we're indistinguishable from a 3050s invading Clan". Just let us keep the 2nd line stuff.

But from a story point, it's almost necessary that the Scorpions have advanced beyond this. At least if the faction is to survive for some time.

It really isn't. That's the cool thing about fiction, the developers can send it in any direction they choose. They literally control every facet of the universe. Homogenizing the Scorpions and stripping their character out was a choice, and then we've been given excuses for it after the fact. They could just as easily chosen to retain the mixed tech and combined arms feel and then written in reasons for it. They chose to do things the way they did.

[tassa_kay]

with only the hideous name marring things.

Literally all TPTB had to do was flip the name around (Imperio Escorpión) and it would've made perfect sense, as Imperio Español was the Spanish-language name of that real-world polity. I liked that name, too... it was flavorful and memorable. Even the formal name of the touman at that time, Imperio Militar del Escorpión, was awesome.

To be fair, there are things about the current Scorpion Empire that I really enjoy, like the Rhino (I am eagerly awaiting actual artwork for that pushy little beast!), their MilitiaMechs, their revamped Blakist designs, new commands like Seeker Galaxy and Grunt Galaxy, the addition of new ranks/positions with reKhans and zarKhans, the addition of new castes, incorporating new Bloodnames from the local populace, etc. So I'm not dogging them to be a hater here; I wouldn't be posting in the fan thread if I didn't like 'em.

But the loss of Protos from one of the three active factions that uses them stings, and it felt like they went out of their way to remove them instead of finding a way to justify keeping them around (which wouldn't have been difficult). Even the reasoning seems a bit questionable to me: Spotlight on Hellion Keshik says it's because they take up considerable resources, they're too narrowly-specialized and designed for subpar pilots... yet the dirt-poor Blood Spirits were cranking them out like there was no tomorrow and the Spirits and Cobras created a whole phenotype for them that the Scorpions could've easily had their hands on. Even without the phenotype, they have the population of almost fifty worlds to draw "subpar pilots" from.

I also didn't particularly enjoy seeing yet another example of the two-party factionalization trope (Imperials vs Preservers in this case) that BattleTech is so fond of thrusting on the Clans in lieu of something more nuanced, especially given the fact that there are three separate population bases within the Empire, all of which have ugly histories with each other... where's the internal strife there?!

Almost all of their internal and external (the Homeworld Clans were literally scouting out staging worlds for an invasion in the 3080s and we've not heard so much as a mention of them since despite being the #1 threat to the Empire; the Scorps were able to just eliminate all of the Watch agents embedded in their realm and that was that) conflicts and struggles that made the region so juicy and interesting in ISP3 are gone, and now the Scorps are on an unbroken winning streak and have no credible threats to their realm, which to me drastically reduces their appeal.

It really isn't. That's the cool thing about fiction, the developers can send it in any direction they choose. They literally control every facet of the universe. Homogenizing the Scorpions and stripping their character out was a choice, and then we've been given excuses for it after the fact. They could just as easily chosen to retain the mixed tech and combined arms feel and then written in reasons for it. They chose to do things the way they did.

THIS. This right here. "Homogenizing the Scorpions and stripping their character out" is exactly how I feel when I look at them now. Hell, I haven't even seen necrosia mentioned once since WoR; imagine the impact that a mind-altering drug with official government sanction could've had on the black market amongst the non-Clan population! Do they even "dance the scars" anymore? 

The whole thing just feels like a Great Value brand retread of the RasDom's story now, and it's not a good look. It all feels very... fanfiction-y, for lack of a better term.

[Gaiiten]

IMHO there is a missing link from the humble beginning to the actual Periphery powerhouse.
How they have achieved this, what problems they had to overcome, which adverseries they had to defeat and how they did this.
More details about this transistion era would be very appreciated.

[tassa_kay]

IMHO there is a missing link from the humble beginning to the actual Periphery powerhouse.
How they have achieved this, what problems they had to overcome, which adverseries they had to defeat and how they did this.
More details about this transistion era would be very appreciated.

There's no missing link. Literally all of this has already been provided in various products.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Scorpion_Empire

[Crimson Dynamo]

Tassa, get out of my head!  ;D

How I loved the dumpster fire that the Imperio was in ISP3, and the way it was depicted. The natives were restless, the Touman was in shambles and fielding whatever it could (those glorious ISP3 RATs tho), everything was precarious with so little there for the Scorpions to use and so little making the hasty journey from Clan Space with the Cobras on their heels, and the specter of the Homeworlds loomed large. The Clan was out in force, trying to project an air or normalcy that no longer existed for any of them, and the Castillians and Umayyads were pushing back. The first line in the GM section was literally "life in the newly formed Escorpión Imperio is tumultuous on the best of days." It was one of the best damn playgrounds in the pre-3145 days. Now that the Hansa are down and out, there is nothing going on in that region.

[tassa_kay]

Tassa, get out of my head!  ;D

Sorry, can't do it, it's rent-free!  ;D

How I loved the dumpster fire that the Imperio was in ISP3, and the way it was depicted. The natives were restless, the Touman was in shambles and fielding whatever it could (those glorious ISP3 RATs tho), everything was precarious with so little there for the Scorpions to use and so little making the hasty journey from Clan Space with the Cobras on their heels, and the specter of the Homeworlds loomed large. The Clan was out in force, trying to project an air or normalcy that no longer existed for any of them, and the Castillians and Umayyads were pushing back. The first line in the GM section was literally "life in the newly formed Escorpión Imperio is tumultuous on the best of days." It was one of the best damn playgrounds in the pre-3145 days. Now that the Hansa are down and out, there is nothing going on in that region.

You said a mouthful, sir. The ISP3 Imperio was so good and easily the best part of an already-excellent book. It just screamed "please set your tabletop/RPG campaigns here!" with everything that was going on, but now? Now it's just the RasDom Without The RasDom's Problems and I couldn't be more bored.

[glitterboy2098]

I wpuld argue that sinc the newer books only show us a small slice of the empire, much of it just the foreward edge of the spear in taking the Hansa, that a lot of the ISP3 depiction might still be present. That we're just seeing the layer of gilt on the surface of the Potemkin village that is the public face of the Empire, which still is a smoldering dumpster fire underneath.

[Stormy]

Or it’s just a big tent with room for a variety of preferences within it — which is how I like my Empires ;)

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I wpuld argue that sinc the newer books only show us a small slice of the empire, much of it just the foreward edge of the spear in taking the Hansa, that a lot of the ISP3 depiction might still be present. That we're just seeing the layer of gilt on the surface of the Potemkin village that is the public face of the Empire, which still is a smoldering dumpster fire underneath.

OTP: Hanseatic Crusade gave a pretty complete picture. The insurgency and troubles in WoR:S and ISP3 took a very long time for the Empire to solve before they could focus on the Crusade.

[Nerroth]

I doubt it would have been realistic given the real-world constraints involved, but I might have preferred if the Hanseatic Crusade had been presented more gradually over time, rather than all at once.

Say, if the first look at the invasion had covered the first and/or second waves only, with a pause (allowing players to try and fight out some of the battles being portrayed for themselves) before a follow-on volume, or volumes, each overed the next wave or two.

Yes, it could have still ended with the fall of the Hansa and the rise of the Scorpion Empire... or, depending on the reaction to the earlier volumes, perhaps the war might have dragged on for a few more years, or even reached a stalemate of sorts.

And given the steady stream of Shrapnel issues and separate fiction e-publications being uploaded at present, it would have been been more welcome to have had the Hanseatic Crusade play out in story fiction, in parallel to the "sourcebook" side of the equation.

-----

But rather than dwell on that for too much longer, I'd like to see more sourcebook material - and more story fiction - build on what we do have for the Empire going forward.

I'd still welcome some fiction written to cover the Hanseatic Crusade itself. But the most recent events of Spotlight On: Hellion Keshik would also do with some dramatization - as might the long-range "shopping trip" to Solaris VII...

And while the Scorpions now have a holding in the Chaine Cluster - technically making them an "on-map" Inner Sphere and near Periphery presence for the first time - I still would like to see them turn to the Rim Territories as the focus for a future invasion. One which, unlike what happened to the Hansa, need not be covered all at once: let them strike only one or two worlds at a time, making the "Rift Worlds Crusade" a process rather than an event.

And if we ever hear more from the Clan Homeworlds, a more gradual approach to a would-be campaign in the Rim Territories would keep the bulk of the Empire's touman back in the Empire proper, where it would be most needed.

-----

On a side note: I might have also mentioned this in the past, but perhaps we might not end up seeing the four remaining Home Clans all at once, if we ever do see any of them at all.

As hinted at in Campaign Operations, there'd be plenty of grounds for picturing Clan Coyote fleeing the Homeworlds and showing up on the Scorpions' front porch. Would the Coyotes seek to seize a portion of the Empire for themselves - or might both Clans join forces in the face of a Star Adder-led Act of Aggression?

[tassa_kay]

I still would like to see them turn to the Rim Territories as the focus for a future invasion.

Why there?

[Nerroth]

Why there?

A few reasons.

As shown on the Deep Periphery maps in ISP3, the distance from the nearest edge of the former Hanseatic League to the Rim Territories is broadly comparable to that from the post-Crusade Empire proper to their new holding in the Chainelane Isles. Indeed, both distances are comparable to that between the worlds farthest apart within the Empire itself.

Plus, while the Chainelane Isles (outside of the Chaine Cluster) are under the de facto suzerainty of Clan Sea Fox, the Rim Territories are a "pirate" faction with no House or Clan affiliation. So an "anti-pirate" campaign by the Scorpions there would not trigger a broader reaction from any of the more powerful realms in the area.

Or to put it another way: as shown in Tamar Rising, the Lyran Commonwealth has more than enough on its plate as it stands, whereas the Hinterland states (and Clan Hell's Horses) have issues of their own to confront. So by the time anyone noticed the Scorpions establishing a foothold (or would that be a pincer-hold?) in the Rim Territories, it might well appear to be a fait accompli.

But to take a more long-term view: the Scorpions have functioning HPGs, and are already building an HPG link from the Empire proper to the Chaine Cluster. Regardless of whether the Sea Foxes succeed in getting the Inner Sphere and near Periphery network up and running by themselves or not, it is critical for the Scorpions to establish and secure lines of communication - ones which are as little beholden to the Sea Foxes as possible. (Consider this: if the REVIVAL-era Invading Cans ran HPG routes all the way back to Strana Mechty, it would not be entirely out of the bounds of possibility to run a line from Braunschweig all the way to Terra.) So it would be prudent to face the myriad challenges of the IlClan Era by running two parallel HPG routes, rather than putting all of their eggs in a Sea Fox-adjacent basket.

And finally: even with the rise of the zarKhan, there is still a need for an outlet through which to channel the more aggressive elements within the Scorpion touman. Rather than risk the internal stability of the Empire proper, why not send them to the Rim Territories instead?

[tassa_kay]

I wpuld argue that sinc the newer books only show us a small slice of the empire, much of it just the foreward edge of the spear in taking the Hansa, that a lot of the ISP3 depiction might still be present. That we're just seeing the layer of gilt on the surface of the Potemkin village that is the public face of the Empire, which still is a smoldering dumpster fire underneath.

Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case at all. Between the Touring the Stars PDFs, Spotlight on Hellion Keshik, "Moving Forward", etc., the Scorpions have more or less addressed all of their societal woes pretty comprehensively. By the time "Moving Forward" takes place, the only real internal division we see is the Imperial/Preserver split (do the Clans only understand political binaries, or is the writing simply that lazy?), and even that felt very one-and-done.

[DarkISI]

The Clans are really a binary people. And let's be honest here, reality isn't all that different in that regard.
But you can assume there are preservers and imperials in all shapes and sizes, so there might be some gray areas. Also, the preservers are not done. They have been severely weakened, but they are still around. Remember: when you back a dog into a corner, it will attack.
And no, I have absolutely no clue how things will progress from here. That is totally in Geoff's hands and not in mine.

[tassa_kay]

The Clans are really a binary people.

Because writers continue to lean on this lazy trope instead of presenting something with nuance.

And let's be honest here, reality isn't all that different in that regard.

Reality is absolutely different in that regard.

The Scorpion Empire is home to not one, not two, not three, but six different internal bodies of people (Scorpions, Hellions, ELH descendants, Castilians, Umayyads and Hansa), some of whom have some serious beef with each other, and the best we can do for them is just slap another patented Clan binary-choice political division on them and call it a day? This is exactly the sort of characterization-erasing treatment that's made the Scorpion Empire so bland and uninteresting, IMO; Dominions Divided, for all of its storytelling flaws, at least made the effort to make it more complex than a simple "Joiners versus Deniers" divide.

[Baldur Mekorig]

The Scorpion Empire is home to not one, not two, not three, but six different internal bodies of people (Scorpions, Hellions, ELH descendants, Castilians, Umayyads and Hansa)

Are there still "ELH descendants". IIRC, most, if not all, died in the HW. Their genetic heritage still lives, but dont think you have actual people there, maybe some freebirth here and there that come from some dependants absorved and that somehow survived all the WoR and moving. The Umayyads and Castillians seems to have adapted well, mostly from the "caudillo" culture they had that goes well with the Clan Culture, or the Umayyads just taking some medium class caste positions. Assimilating the Hansa, specially the merchants, will be a challenge, the serf seem to look the clan caste system as a social upgrade. And you know your social system is crappy when that happens.

[Doc Swift]

The Scorpions began using ELH genes in their breeding program before the Wars of Reaving. (That's why they were abjured.) These were the basis for the ELH Bloodhouses that have since been founded. They had more than the people they took in Trials of Possession. They also had the remains of those who did not survive the trial... (And those who might not have survived Operation Serpent...)

[GuyIncognito]

I choose to believe that Charles Greely is simply immortal and continues to serve to this day in the Touman in his Wasp.

[CJC070]

The Scorpions began using ELH genes in their breeding program before the Wars of Reaving. (That's why they were abjured.) These were the basis for the ELH Bloodhouses that have since been founded. They had more than the people they took in Trials of Possession. They also had the remains of those who did not survive the trial... (And those who might not have survived Operation Serpent...)

And unlike other mercenary companies (or anyone) absorbed by the Clans the ELH and their descendants were probably encouraged (or at least not discouraged) to keep their identity. 

[tassa_kay]

And unlike other mercenary companies (or anyone) absorbed by the Clans the ELH and their descendants were probably encouraged (or at least not discouraged) to keep their identity.

That's what I assumed given that their descendants as a group were given a mention in the Crusade OTP. They seemed significant enough to mention even so long after they were originally Absorbed.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Scorpions began using ELH genes in their breeding program before the Wars of Reaving. (That's why they were abjured.) These were the basis for the ELH Bloodhouses that have since been founded. They had more than the people they took in Trials of Possession. They also had the remains of those who did not survive the trial... (And those who might not have survived Operation Serpent...)

One really stands out from Serpent. Long live Bloodhouse Winston!

[Gorgon]

I choose to believe that Charles Greely is simply immortal and continues to serve to this day in the Touman in his Wasp.

They better give him a whole verse in the remembrance. Fighting for 70 years in the same Wasp, through Huntress and the Wars of Reaving, no less. What a legend.