Author Topic: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us  (Read 136062 times)

Gaiiten

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1200 on: 25 January 2025, 15:00:13 »
Both Clans could form a new power block. Especially to defend better against the 3rd League and the ilClan, when those come to demand subjugation.
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BrianDavion

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1201 on: 25 January 2025, 20:44:01 »
Scorpion Empire is too far from Clan Hell's horses. The closest points of their territory are about 30 jumps away from each other.

Assuming each jump is 20 days and they're using ships with a LF drive... that's basicly a year transit time. Even assuming they can get an HPG link to each other and rapidly send messages sending military assistance to each other isn't practical
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tassa_kay

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1202 on: 25 January 2025, 20:59:23 »
Technically not quite true. The Scorpions have a small enclave in the Chainelane Isles on Corell. But I agree with the gist of what you're saying.

On the other hand, the Scorpions have a large military and no one to use it on, so an expeditionary force isn't out of the question. Bonus points if the Home Clans choose that moment to strike. :evil:

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Mendrugo

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1203 on: 25 January 2025, 21:16:26 »
The Scorpions also have reactivated the old Hanseatic trading post on Oberon, which is pretty close to the Horses' coreward border.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1204 on: 25 January 2025, 22:01:30 »
The very-much-dead Blood Spirits learned the hard way that protomechs are exceptionally poor platform for waging interstellar wars

Sure that could be one lesson learned when the largest faction decided to annihilate the smallest at a time when no one else would take advantage of their actions.

Logic is rock solid: availability of resources and superior platforms

Was ComStar magically conjuring up Star League grade battlemechs before Tukkyid also author fiat?


Have some other factions have protomechs, preferably ones for which it would be in character
Jaguars, Foxes, Falcons (x2), Wolves and Bears are available to say nothing of Capelans and their infinite amount of disposable servitors

#1, mechs nor vehs are always superior platforms

#2 . . . yes ComStar doing that was fiat, by definition EVERYTHING that happens in a narrative universe is author fiat.

#3  Foxes probably still produce Protos for sale to the Horses & Ravens, Jaguars, Falcons, & Wolves have a lack of bodies not equipment, and the Bears . . . it does not fit with their faction.  Problem is the Scorpions DID buy in- same with Hellions IIRC?- but as mentioned, person given free hand did not want them.  I think just admitting that you do not like Protos would resolve the question.
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1205 on: 26 January 2025, 02:13:58 »
This keeps getting repeated, but there's nothing in canon that substantiates it.

Read the first few pages of Dying Breed. Or just the first paragraph. The last Scorpion PM pilot needed medication for her deterioration. Is medicine cheap? And this is specialized medicine for someone with implants and a chronic condition. 

Any military will not like equipment that causes long-term permanent damage and addiction to their personnel that already need lots of investment to begin with.


tassa_kay

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1206 on: 26 January 2025, 03:26:54 »
Read the first few pages of Dying Breed. Or just the first paragraph. The last Scorpion PM pilot needed medication for her deterioration. Is medicine cheap? And this is specialized medicine for someone with implants and a chronic condition.

We've no idea how cheap or not-cheap it is. As with most things economic in BattleTech, people have a tendency to impose headcanon onto things that are never really substantiated in the actual source material (and for good reason; no one wants to see the return of FASAnomics).

But more to the point, you'll have to forgive me if I take all of the examples in canon where this isn't an issue to speak of over a throwaway story penned by the very person that arbitrarily chucked Protos out of the Scorpion touman because he personally didn't like them.

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Any military will not like equipment that causes long-term permanent damage and addiction to their personnel that already need lots of investment to begin with.

I can name several militaries in BattleTech right off the top of my head that don't have an issue with it. All of which are Clans, who were built on the foundational value of waste-not-want-not and certainly have no problem throwing people away who have outlived their usefulness. Most especially the Snow Ravens, who are even more extreme about their frugality.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't hold water.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2025, 03:31:00 by tassa_kay »
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1207 on: 26 January 2025, 05:09:37 »
Sure that could be one lesson learned when the largest faction decided to annihilate the smallest at a time when no one else would take advantage of their actions.

And perhaps they would have not been annihilated had they not used inferior platforms



....
#1, mechs nor vehs are always superior platforms

Exactly hence no need to waste time and resources on protomechs especially when you have abundance of mechs and vehicles like Scorpions do now



.....
#2 . . . yes ComStar doing that was fiat, by definition EVERYTHING that happens in a narrative universe is author fiat.

Precisely

Which is why complaining about author fiat is nonsensical

Might as well complain about entire fictional universe existing, it's all author fiat anyway



....
and the Bears . . . it does not fit with their faction. 

Exactly

And neither do they fit with Scorpions



....
Problem is the Scorpions DID buy in- same with Hellions IIRC?- but as mentioned, person given free hand did not want them. 

They did at first and later they ditched them because they didn't fit with their faction

Just like they don't fit with Bears

Even when they did have them the whole project was second fiddle to Undine battle armor (a battle armor!)

Jade Falcons also did buy in at first and later they ditched them because they were inferior platforms and because they didn't fit with their faction

Nova Cats did too... and then they didn't just like Falcons and Scorpions

I have no clue why some people insist on having Scorpions of all factions being saddled with protomechs

Have Falcons and Cats use them again, they did buy in protomechs too

Not even new Jaguars are using them despite being their inventors and having easy access to new ones via Foxes and now Ravens

You think they would jump at the opportunity since protomechs are apparently so "good"?



....
I think just admitting that you do not like Protos would resolve the question.

Of course I don't

Loads of other people don't as well

They are 40k Dreadnought knockoffs which look like rough drafts of DnD creatures with lore that makes zero sense in-universe and which resoundingly fail at doing the very thing they were supposedly created to do





Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1208 on: 26 January 2025, 05:18:16 »
.....
I can name several militaries in BattleTech right off the top of my head that don't have an issue with it. All of which are Clans, who were built on the foundational value of waste-not-want-not and certainly have no problem throwing people away who have outlived their usefulness. Most especially the Snow Ravens, who are even more extreme about their frugality. ...

And I can name several militaries in Battletech who do have issue with it because of the same waste-not-want-not values such as Ghost Bears, Wolves, Jade Falcons, Smoke Jaguars, Nova Cats or Sea Foxes

Care to guess what all those militaries have in common?


« Last Edit: 26 January 2025, 05:20:32 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

tassa_kay

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1209 on: 26 January 2025, 07:35:48 »
Lot to unpack here.

And perhaps they would have not been annihilated had they not used inferior platforms

This is so patently untrue that I won't even bother.

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And neither do they fit with Scorpions

Based on what criteria? Actual criteria, not your personal opinion. What are the characteristics of the Scorpions that would preclude ProtoMechs from being a fit for them?

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They did at first and later they ditched them because they didn't fit with their faction

No, they ditched them because their current writer personally dislikes them. (And again, this is not my opinion, this is something that said writer has said on these forums, and I believe in this very thread.)

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Even when they did have them the whole project was second fiddle to Undine battle armor (a battle armor!)

Also untrue. The Undine was already in production by the time the Scorpions started designing their own Protos.

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Jade Falcons also did buy in at first and later they ditched them because they were inferior platforms and because they didn't fit with their faction

That's not quite accurate. The Erinyes was a poorly-designed platform (and intentionally so, by the Society), and that's why the Falcons chose not to move forward with them.

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Nova Cats did too... and then they didn't just like Falcons and Scorpions

The Nova Cats never used Protos. They were Abjured from the Homeworlds before the other Clans started getting their hands on Proto technology.

I was incorrect here. Leaving it in since I can admit when I’m wrong.

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I have no clue why some people insist on having Scorpions of all factions being saddled with protomechs

Because we like them. It's not complicated.

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with lore that makes zero sense in-universe

Just because you don't like the lore doesn't mean it makes no sense.

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and which resoundingly fail at doing the very thing they were supposedly created to do

I have a feeling that you've never actually used Protos at the gaming table, because if you had, you'd know this isn't the case.

And I can name several militaries in Battletech who do have issue with it because of the same waste-not-want-not values such as Ghost Bears, Wolves, Jade Falcons, Smoke Jaguars, Nova Cats or Sea Foxes

Care to guess what all those militaries have in common?

The fact that these other Clans aren't using Protos (which isn't solely attributed to what you're claiming; many don't use them because of the Society's connection to them, others don't use them because, again, TPTB have deemed it so arbitrarily) doesn't detract from the fact that the Clans that do use them have gotten enough mileage out of them that they've not only made their own designs, but they've innovated with them: ultraheavies, quads, gliders, new ProtoMech equipment, even a new Phenotype in some cases.

Can you maybe come back with some actual facts and references? Your personal opinions aren't really something worth debating here. You don't like them, and have made that very clear. And it's ironic to me that, for someone who loves to tell people on these forums "read the books/Sarna" at every opportunity, you haven't actually read them yourself, because most of the above is simply not substantiated in the source material. I'm happy to have a civil debate with you (insofar as much as you refrain from the condescension and personal attacks), but I have no interest in debating personal opinions, I want to debate actual facts. If you can't do that, I'm just going to ignore and/or block you again. Fair enough?
« Last Edit: 26 January 2025, 07:58:47 by tassa_kay »
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

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Lore

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1210 on: 26 January 2025, 07:51:59 »
And I can name several militaries in Battletech who do have issue with it because of the same waste-not-want-not values such as Ghost Bears, Wolves, Jade Falcons, Smoke Jaguars, Nova Cats or Sea Foxes

Care to guess what all those militaries have in common?

What exactly are you trying to prove here? :huh:
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Gaiiten

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1211 on: 26 January 2025, 07:54:56 »
The Nova Cats never used Protos. They were Abjured from the Homeworlds before the other Clans started getting their hands on Proto technology.
This is not correct.
FM: Updates has an entry for them in the Random Assignment Table (page 218) and they developed the SATYR-XP typus.
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tassa_kay

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1212 on: 26 January 2025, 07:56:10 »
This is not correct.
FM: Updates has an entry for them in the Random Assignment Table (page 218) and they developed the SATYR-XP typus.

Thank you, I stand corrected.
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1213 on: 26 January 2025, 08:39:27 »
What exactly are you trying to prove here? :huh:

Nothing

Simply stating the fact that there are plenty of Clans who don't use protomechs




Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1214 on: 26 January 2025, 09:07:23 »
Lot to unpack here.

This is so patently untrue that I won't even bother...

That's certainly one way to admit to being wrong, especially when "unpacking a lot"



Based on what criteria? Actual criteria, not your personal opinion. What are the characteristics of the Scorpions that would preclude ProtoMechs from being a fit for them? ...

Based on what criteria Bears don't use them? Actual criteria, not your personal opinion. What are the characteristics of the Bears that would preclude ProtoMechs from being a fit for them?



That's not quite accurate. The Erinyes was a poorly-designed platform (and intentionally so, by the Society), and that's why the Falcons chose not to move forward with them. ...

Harpy, Centaur and Gorgon were not poorly-designed platforms (for protomechs)

So where are they? Why aren't Falcons still using them?



...
Because we like them. It's not complicated. ...

Smashing

I'm sure you will have no issues liking them in any other faction



Just because you don't like the lore doesn't mean it makes no sense. ...

Protomech can easily cost as much as light mech like Locust or Wasp and several times as much as high quality vehicle

They were supposed to be cheap

They aren't

Hence it makes no sense



...
I have a feeling that you've never actually used Protos at the gaming table, because if you had, you'd know this isn't the case....

Protomechs being expensive to build, not worh investing in production and making pilots go postal has no effects on gaming tables



...
The fact that these other Clans aren't using Protos (which isn't solely attributed to what you're claiming; many don't use them because of the Society's connection to them, others don't use them because, again, TPTB have deemed it so arbitrarily) doesn't detract from the fact that the Clans that do use them have gotten enough mileage out of them that they've not only made their own designs, but they've innovated with them: ultraheavies, quads, gliders, new ProtoMech equipment, even a new Phenotype in some cases. ...

And more power to them

Doesn't change the fact that protomechs are inferior to battlemechs and that it makes no sense for Scorpions to waste time on them



...
Can you maybe come back with some actual facts and references? Your personal opinions aren't really something worth debating here. ...

You never once skipped the opportunity to debate what you claim are my personal opinions so there has to be at least some worth to it



...
And it's ironic to me that, for someone who loves to tell people on these forums "read the books/Sarna" at every opportunity...

Care to reference a case when I told someone here to "read the books"?



...
I'm just going to ignore and/or block you again...

Sounds like a threat... with good time  :grin:


Colt Ward

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1215 on: 26 January 2025, 12:57:10 »
That's not quite accurate. The Erinyes was a poorly-designed platform (and intentionally so, by the Society), and that's why the Falcons chose not to move forward with them.

Additionally, the Falcons did not embrace Protos at the same point in time they STILL did not generally use vehicles outside of the Huey.  They had a cultural outlook that excluded everything but mechs, BA, and ASF.  Their dabbling with a Proto is like the person who brings a single squad/point of BA and has it hopping (at best) across the map from their home edge doing nothing all game, and then says that proves they are worthless.


Exactly hence no need to waste time and resources on protomechs especially when you have abundance of mechs and vehicles like Scorpions do now

Uh, what I said was Mechs & Vehs are not superior in all roles.  Protomechs- on a point for point basis- are superior to mechs and vehs for scouting.  Or even 1 vs 1.  Protomechs are also superior to mechs, vehs and even BA for any sort of city fighting.


Complaining about Proto looks while hyping Clan vehicles is funny, both are non-nonsensical in their visuals though Protos at least tried to have a reason.
Colt Ward
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1216 on: 26 January 2025, 13:24:53 »
Additionally, the Falcons did not embrace Protos at the same point in time they STILL did not generally use vehicles outside of the Huey.  They had a cultural outlook that excluded everything but mechs, BA, and ASF.  Their dabbling with a Proto is like the person who brings a single squad/point of BA and has it hopping (at best) across the map from their home edge doing nothing all game, and then says that proves they are worthless....

Tightness of embrace is irrelevant, what matters is that they used them and then they ditched them

If Falcons are allowed to ditch specific equipment then everyone else should be allowed to do the same as well



...
Uh, what I said was Mechs & Vehs are not superior in all roles.  Protomechs- on a point for point basis- are superior to mechs and vehs for scouting.  Or even 1 vs 1.  Protomechs are also superior to mechs, vehs and even BA for any sort of city fighting....

Good to hear that they excel in that one role

Considering the larger number of urban areas closer to Terra compared to Deep Periphery it would make perfect sense for Wolves, Ghost Bears, Falcons, other Falcons, Smoke Jaguars and Sea Foxes to immediately start using protomechs to solve their pressing problem of inadequate urban warfare platforms



...
Complaining about Proto looks while hyping Clan vehicles is funny, both are non-nonsensical in their visuals though Protos at least tried to have a reason.

That reason being?



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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1217 on: 26 January 2025, 14:29:24 »
Tightness of embrace is irrelevant, what matters is that they used them and then they ditched them

If Falcons are allowed to ditch specific equipment then everyone else should be allowed to do the same as well

I am not sure what this point is . . . the Falcons set their proto program up to fail, it fits in with their superiority complex and efforts to out Clan everyone else.  They abandoned vehicles as combat equipment early in their history b/c of the dueling culture's prevalence among the Clans, this then became their tradition and one of the words typically used to describe them.  They even flirted with LAMs, but again their traditionalist bias had them set those aside as well.  When the Falcons finally start using combat vehicles among their forces, it is something the re-armament post Gray Monday forced on them- it allowed them to bulk out, pragmatism showing up.

We had 5 of the remaining Clans using Protos- two of those were shockers (Warden Wolves & Nova Cats)- but then 3 of them discarded Protos.  Two made some sense based on established lore, the Wardens (for some reason) drank Stone's Koolaid despite facing the Falcons and the Cats after 2nd GBDC War struggled to build any war material due to DC strictures.

Nothing in the Scorpion lore would have had them abandoning Protos, and the Hellion portion would have had them keep them since they fit their pack zel culture.

If you discard the lore, then what does it matter the faction's name?
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #1218 on: 26 January 2025, 15:26:05 »
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