Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)

[Luciora]

Quick update on Ratchet and peek at Ironhide.

Felt the original MASH unit was too big for either, so cut up the vehicle and made more manageable scaled vees out if them.  The main boxy look is kept overall, and they scale a bit better to the other vees.

[RifleMech]

Quick update on Ratchet and peek at Ironhide.

Felt the original MASH unit was too big for either, so cut up the vehicle and made more manageable scaled vees out if them.  The main boxy look is kept overall, and they scale a bit better to the other vees.

 :o Wow!  :thumbsup: :beer:

[Luciora]

Only had time before work to take 1 picture.  More to follow later.

[Wrangler]

Well done sir!

[Giovanni Blasini]

Holy crap.  :o

[RifleMech]

What he said.

:o  Wow!

[HABeas2]

Quick update on Ratchet and peek at Ironhide.

Felt the original MASH unit was too big for either, so cut up the vehicle and made more manageable scaled vees out if them.  The main boxy look is kept overall, and they scale a bit better to the other vees.

The cut-down MASH does look great for your Ratchet, but I feel like your Ironhide got short-changed in the bargain. I would almost suggest using the shorter vehicle for one of the other Autobots and maybe finding a second MASH to make something identical to what you gave Ratchet. I mean, they have basically been carbon copies of each other in just about every incarnation. Then your shorter vehicles could maybe be used for... my gut says maybe Huffer and Pipes? (Yeah, I know my spreadsheet recommends the Thor artillery vehicle, but that was me trying to not re-use the HQ vehicle again, and Huffer/Pipes have rarely been made or shown operating with trailers of their own, just taking Prime's when he's feeling low.)

But, of course, that's just my brain spit-firing here. You're doing amazing work, Luc! I'm eager to see what you do next.

- Herb

[Luciora]

Hmm you know,  that makes alot of sense.  And I do have a spare MASH anyways.

[HABeas2]

;) I hope your project goes well. :)

As do I. preliminary proofs are looking good.

I would love to get a 3D printer. Unfortunately, its so far down the list of things I need to spend money on it doesn't make the list. I can also understand sticking with IWM minis. It'd be nice if BT had other came markers that could be used though.

BT has a LOT of minis in its repertoire, and as Luciora keeps demonstrating to us, sticking with the form out of the box is hardly a requirement, especially for a game that's less WYSIWYG than others. But it's worth noting that IWM's site also shows a number of other minis for other lines. Some Shadowrun figs might be moddable into convincing enough exotic units (such as the Black Ice figures, which include a tiger and spider, both formed in a techy, low-res fashion; or the various biker figures--bikers removed, of course--might make better substitutes for some of the wheeled AutoMech forms I recommended, if they can fit the scale [I have no idea, though; SR is a 28mm game system, so I'm just guessing wildly]; the drones supplied with the Riggers & Drones look neat, too; and of course the Cyber-Assassin looks pretty Mech-like, save for his head...). Some of their fantasy figures, if they're presented sufficiently armored, can likely make for interesting 'Mechs with only a little tweaking (I see one called "Elf Thorn Warrior" there that looks like an Arena 'Mech already). The old VOR minis they still offer have some promise (looking specifically at the Shard and Union factions there). And then, there's the old Crimson Skies line, with some planes that could also pass for modern ASFs with just a little tweaking. <-- And that's all just keeping my focus on Iron Wind Metals, who could probably really use the love, y'know?

That's cool. Some are cool designs. And I suppose converting motorcycles would be a bit too far for BT.

Well, I mean, they are wheeled vehicles, and that's pretty much how I saw some of the "Centipede + Wheels" conversions in my spreadsheet work, as many of them were the "female Autobot" types who eventually got motorcycle toys made for them; I saw them as kind of becoming "wide-wheeled" bike-vees here, so I picked the Centipede hovercraft and suggested "add wheels" to it. These would just be BIG bikes, of course.

What is his alt form supposed to be? A Spaceship? Hovercraft? Flying Boat? The Thrush might be an improvement. Could make him an airship, I guess.  :))   https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Hearts_of_Steel_Scourge.JPG

The funny part is, it looks like they barely changed his transformation there and yet his spacecraft form makes for a perfect airship gondola.

Now for Balloon. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Balloon
The Crab might work for the Mech Mode. Leave off the top laser and reverse the legs. Hmm...don't have an Airship form listed. Very slow FighterMechs?

Eesh! Well, ignoring the silliness of it, a balloon may technically be an airship-class unit, but since Airship isn't a vehicle mode option for AutoMechs, why not a VTOL? It's just got an unusual form.

- Herb

[Luciora]

I try and stick as close to both sources as I can, adding enough parts or mods to make the reference pretty clear while keeping the pedigree of of the base kit. 

My original Bumblebee and Optimus originally were just a paint scheme on top of a canon variant, it wasn't til the release of Nebula California that I started to the more detailed kitbashes. 

Bee originally was a Firestarter M, then I did the Commmado movie-esque mod afterwards for example.

[RifleMech]

As do I. preliminary proofs are looking good.

I'm glad. :)

BT has a LOT of minis in its repertoire, and as Luciora keeps demonstrating to us, sticking with the form out of the box is hardly a requirement, especially for a game that's less WYSIWYG than others. But it's worth noting that IWM's site also shows a number of other minis for other lines. Some Shadowrun figs might be moddable into convincing enough exotic units (such as the Black Ice figures, which include a tiger and spider, both formed in a techy, low-res fashion; or the various biker figures--bikers removed, of course--might make better substitutes for some of the wheeled AutoMech forms I recommended, if they can fit the scale [I have no idea, though; SR is a 28mm game system, so I'm just guessing wildly]; the drones supplied with the Riggers & Drones look neat, too; and of course the Cyber-Assassin looks pretty Mech-like, save for his head...). Some of their fantasy figures, if they're presented sufficiently armored, can likely make for interesting 'Mechs with only a little tweaking (I see one called "Elf Thorn Warrior" there that looks like an Arena 'Mech already). The old VOR minis they still offer have some promise (looking specifically at the Shard and Union factions there). And then, there's the old Crimson Skies line, with some planes that could also pass for modern ASFs with just a little tweaking. <-- And that's all just keeping my focus on Iron Wind Metals, who could probably really use the love, y'know?

That's great. I hadn't really looked at all the IWM minis. I have seen some from another company that look really good. Unfortunately, I can't give either of them any love and buy their minis. I really wish I could but they'll have to wait until things are better. 

Well, I mean, they are wheeled vehicles, and that's pretty much how I saw some of the "Centipede + Wheels" conversions in my spreadsheet work, as many of them were the "female Autobot" types who eventually got motorcycle toys made for them; I saw them as kind of becoming "wide-wheeled" bike-vees here, so I picked the Centipede hovercraft and suggested "add wheels" to it. These would just be BIG bikes, of course.

That's cool. It's just I can see Afterburner a bit more easily than I can Wreck-Gar. Although, if AutoMechs could ride each other.... :)). I'd also probably go more with the female autobot's car forms than their newer motorcyle ones.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Afterburner_(G1)
It would be nice if 1-2 wheel crits could be removed to represent 2-3 wheelers.

The funny part is, it looks like they barely changed his transformation there and yet his spacecraft form makes for a perfect airship gondola.

It is a good fit for him.
 

Eesh! Well, ignoring the silliness of it, a balloon may technically be an airship-class unit, but since Airship isn't a vehicle mode option for AutoMechs, why not a VTOL? It's just got an unusual form.

- Herb

 ;D
I suppose VTOL would work. Just fluff Rotors as being Airbags and propellers.

I do have a question about Rotors though. Page 44 under Rotors says each weighs 1 ton and takes 2 critical slots. I think the 2 slots was errata'ed to 1 slot. You're notes above would seem to indicate that so that's cool. But your notes say 1 critical per MP. Is that Cruising MP or Flank MP? Also Page 44 says that Rotors provide 1.5 MP per rotor. So if a VTOLMech has 6 Rotors, how many slots do they take?

A few questions for you.

Do FighterMechs and WiGEMechs have a maxium number of Jump Jets that they can mount? Is it still number of Jump Jets equals Walking MP and number of Improved Jump Jets equal Running MP?  So a 5/8 FigherMech with max JJ would have a Thrust MP of either 5/8 and 16/24 with max IJJ? Or are they both limited to the Bots Walking MP? So a 5/8 Bot would have a max of 5 jump jets with Thrust being be 5/8 and 10/15 depending on the jump jets used?

For WiGEMEchs, would it be better to multiply the number of JJs x3 for cruising/flank speeds? Like LAM's in AirMech Mode? I ask because if they follow WiGE Rules, and 1 jump jet equals 1 MP,  WiGEMechs would need a minimum of 10 standard jump jets or 5 Improved Jump Jets since it takes 5MP to take off and another 5 MP for minimal forward movement. That would also mean that a WiGEMech would have to have a movement Mech MPs of at least 10/15 (walking) or 7/11 (running) in order to mount the minimum number of Jump Jets?

Can WiGEMechs jump in vehicle Mode using their jump jets? If yes, would it be like an AirMech paying 2 MP to fly at 2 or more elevations above the ground, or would the MP cost be the same but limited by number of JJs or would they need more additional JJs to jump?

Thanks :)

[RifleMech]

I try and stick as close to both sources as I can, adding enough parts or mods to make the reference pretty clear while keeping the pedigree of of the base kit. 

My original Bumblebee and Optimus originally were just a paint scheme on top of a canon variant, it wasn't til the release of Nebula California that I started to the more detailed kitbashes. 

Bee originally was a Firestarter M, then I did the Commmado movie-esque mod afterwards for example.

Sounds cool. :)

[HABeas2]

That's cool. It's just I can see Afterburner a bit more easily than I can Wreck-Gar. Although, if AutoMechs could ride each other.... :)). I'd also probably go more with the female autobot's car forms than their newer motorcyle ones.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Afterburner_(G1)
It would be nice if 1-2 wheel crits could be removed to represent 2-3 wheelers.

Afterburner-style bikes is exactly what I had in mind, really, but the closest I could find in BT minis for that would have involved getting a Chalchiuhtotolin and slicing away its center hull to get two "bikes."

If I went with "car" modes for the femmes, well, here's what I'd get:
Elita-One - G1 Cartoon and 1 toy: A car similar to Arcee. If we were tossing the slim "cycles" look I was aiming for, I'd switch her to a wheeled Saladin, similar to Blurr, as the toys share a body type. There's also a toy version of Elita that's a pink speedboat. I went with her Combiner version, who flies.
Chromia - G1 Cartoon: A short truck/van thing. Toys: 2 slim-brick car forms, and four motorcycles (mostly Afterburner-style), but apparently transforming like Prime Arcee. The Centipede + Wheels can go with both, really, depending on how many wheels you give it. Or honor the cartoon and make her a VeeMech/Hounder type.
Moonracer - G1 Cartoon: A sedan-style car that I translated to a Jack-class model. Toys: 1 slim-brick car form and 1 motorcycle. See Chromia.
Firestar/Novastar - G1 Cartoon: Flatbed truck. Toys: Looks like she only ever got the one "slim-brick" car form, though a trading card game gave her a pickup truck form. If I went for cartoon/pickup form, I'd make her another Kup model (a VeeMech that uses a Wolverine II for its base, rather than a standard WOlverine). Otherwise, Centipede + wheels it is!
Greenlight & Lancer: G1 Cartoon: No clear vehicle modes shown, it seems. Toys: Both got the "slim-brick" car form that I'd translate into a 4-wheeled Centipede.
Arcee: - G1 Cartoon: Sporty Cybertronian car. Toys: All G1 toys are basically the same: A car (colors may vary, but mostly pink). In the Prime/Aligned continuity, she's a bike, though. I went with her bike interpretation, so she got the wheeled Centipede look, but she could as easily be translated into another "Beetle II" with a hovercraft mode like I proposed for a non-flying Elita-One above.

As to two-wheel VeeMechs, my notes show them as an option that costs the ability to have a turret. This is particularly funny as all the wheeled AutoMechs I put are turretless, yet put in four wheels slots anyway.

I do have a question about Rotors though. Page 44 under Rotors says each weighs 1 ton and takes 2 critical slots. I think the 2 slots was errata'ed to 1 slot. You're notes above would seem to indicate that so that's cool. But your notes say 1 critical per MP. Is that Cruising MP or Flank MP? Also Page 44 says that Rotors provide 1.5 MP per rotor. So if a VTOLMech has 6 Rotors, how many slots do they take?

Heh. That's a fun one, isn't it? I think, perhaps, what I wanted was each Rotor being 1 ton/1 slot/1.5 Cruise MP, so a VTOLMech with 6 Rotors would be a 9/13 VTOL. Any other way to interpret all that text would get confusing real fast!

Do FighterMechs and WiGEMechs have a maxium number of Jump Jets that they can mount? Is it still number of Jump Jets equals Walking MP and number of Improved Jump Jets equal Running MP?  So a 5/8 FigherMech with max JJ would have a Thrust MP of either 5/8 and 16/24 with max IJJ? Or are they both limited to the Bots Walking MP? So a 5/8 Bot would have a max of 5 jump jets with Thrust being be 5/8 and 10/15 depending on the jump jets used?

You're still bound by the rules for BattleMechs in this case, which IIRC, is that your jump MP can't exceed your Walk MP unless you use IJJs, which can't exceed your Running MP. So you can't skimp on your engine and just pump as many jets on until your run out of space for an AeroMech that can't get out of its own way on land, but outflies the fastest Inner Sphere fighters in space.

For WiGEMEchs, would it be better to multiply the number of JJs x3 for cruising/flank speeds? Like LAM's in AirMech Mode? I ask because if they follow WiGE Rules, and 1 jump jet equals 1 MP,  WiGEMechs would need a minimum of 10 standard jump jets or 5 Improved Jump Jets since it takes 5MP to take off and another 5 MP for minimal forward movement. That would also mean that a WiGEMech would have to have a movement Mech MPs of at least 10/15 (walking) or 7/11 (running) in order to mount the minimum number of Jump Jets?

Meh. How about just making them match what we gave the aeros, so our jump jets stay consistent at 1.5 MP per?

Can WiGEMechs jump in vehicle Mode using their jump jets? If yes, would it be like an AirMech paying 2 MP to fly at 2 or more elevations above the ground, or would the MP cost be the same but limited by number of JJs or would they need more additional JJs to jump?

Nope. Bimodal is bimodal; in WiGE form, the WiGEMech is limited to WiGE MP only; the jump jets provide the thrust needed to achieve WiGE MP and can't do that AND jump at the same time.

- Herb

[HABeas2]

As to two-wheel VeeMechs, my notes show them as an option that costs the ability to have a turret. This is particularly funny as all the wheeled AutoMechs I put are turretless, yet put in four wheels slots anyway.

Actually, Past-Herb, no. That's not been made an option; the option that costs a turret reduces the unit's CONVERSION GEAR slots, not Wheels slots. You're a moron, and you should feel bad. No, worse than that!

Heh. That's a fun one, isn't it? I think, perhaps, what I wanted was each Rotor being 1 ton/1 slot/1.5 Cruise MP, so a VTOLMech with 6 Rotors would be a 9/13 VTOL. Any other way to interpret all that text would get confusing real fast!

I'll let you keep that one, Past-Herb

Meh. How about just making them match what we gave the aeros, so our jump jets stay consistent at 1.5 MP per?

How about no? Because you misinterpreted the table again and seemed to think WiGEs shared the same MP as VTOLs, which they don't. Sorry, but you need to install jets for all your WiGE MP. It just sucks to be you if you're a WiGEMech. All the Seekers are laughing at you now. Especially Sky Seeker, because he's an ******.

-Present-Herb

[RifleMech]

Afterburner-style bikes is exactly what I had in mind, really, but the closest I could find in BT minis for that would have involved getting a Chalchiuhtotolin and slicing away its center hull to get two "bikes."

That's cool.  :thumbsup:   Yeah, doing that is beyond me. I imagine Luciora though. :)

If I went with "car" modes for the femmes, well, here's what I'd get:
Elita-One - G1 Cartoon and 1 toy: A car similar to Arcee. If we were tossing the slim "cycles" look I was aiming for, I'd switch her to a wheeled Saladin, similar to Blurr, as the toys share a body type. There's also a toy version of Elita that's a pink speedboat. I went with her Combiner version, who flies.
Chromia - G1 Cartoon: A short truck/van thing. Toys: 2 slim-brick car forms, and four motorcycles (mostly Afterburner-style), but apparently transforming like Prime Arcee. The Centipede + Wheels can go with both, really, depending on how many wheels you give it. Or honor the cartoon and make her a VeeMech/Hounder type.
Moonracer - G1 Cartoon: A sedan-style car that I translated to a Jack-class model. Toys: 1 slim-brick car form and 1 motorcycle. See Chromia.
Firestar/Novastar - G1 Cartoon: Flatbed truck. Toys: Looks like she only ever got the one "slim-brick" car form, though a trading card game gave her a pickup truck form. If I went for cartoon/pickup form, I'd make her another Kup model (a VeeMech that uses a Wolverine II for its base, rather than a standard WOlverine). Otherwise, Centipede + wheels it is!
Greenlight & Lancer: G1 Cartoon: No clear vehicle modes shown, it seems. Toys: Both got the "slim-brick" car form that I'd translate into a 4-wheeled Centipede.
Arcee: - G1 Cartoon: Sporty Cybertronian car. Toys: All G1 toys are basically the same: A car (colors may vary, but mostly pink). In the Prime/Aligned continuity, she's a bike, though. I went with her bike interpretation, so she got the wheeled Centipede look, but she could as easily be translated into another "Beetle II" with a hovercraft mode like I proposed for a non-flying Elita-One above.

They all have toys now? I know Arcee, Elita-One, and Chromia have toys. I didn't know the others did too. That's cool. And Elita-One flies?  :o  That's cool.
And the mini-choices sound good too.  :thumbsup:

As to two-wheel VeeMechs, my notes show them as an option that costs the ability to have a turret. This is particularly funny as all the wheeled AutoMechs I put are turretless, yet put in four wheels slots anywa

y.

That is kind of funny. :) I suppose they could be like those newer bikes with two front wheels. Only with 4. Fewer crits would still be nice though.  ;)

Heh. That's a fun one, isn't it? I think, perhaps, what I wanted was each Rotor being 1 ton/1 slot/1.5 Cruise MP, so a VTOLMech with 6 Rotors would be a 9/13 VTOL. Any other way to interpret all that text would get confusing real fast!

 :)  It would be confusing. So 1 slot per rotor. Cool!  :thumbsup:

You're still bound by the rules for BattleMechs in this case, which IIRC, is that your jump MP can't exceed your Walk MP unless you use IJJs, which can't exceed your Running MP. So you can't skimp on your engine and just pump as many jets on until your run out of space for an AeroMech that can't get out of its own way on land, but outflies the fastest Inner Sphere fighters in space.

That's cool but what about odd number MP?  Like 9 Running MP?  If we can't exceed the MP, that's only 4 IJJ for 8 Jumping/Thrust as they're 2MP each. Or am I misreading it and it's Number of JJ = Running MP? So 6/9/18 Movement?

Meh. How about just making them match what we gave the aeros, so our jump jets stay consistent at 1.5 MP per?

So a WiGEMech with 6 JJs would have a 9 Cruising MP? I guess that's work if Taking off counts as 1 of the 5 forward movement MPs. (5 up and 4 forward. 5 Hexes forward each turn after.) It works for AirMechs, why not WiGEMechs?

Would Improved JJs be 3 MP per?

Nope. Bimodal is bimodal; in WiGE form, the WiGEMech is limited to WiGE MP only; the jump jets provide the thrust needed to achieve WiGE MP and can't do that AND jump at the same time.

- Herb

That's makes sense. I asked because WiGEs can mount JJs to jump, so I wondered if WiGEMechs could also jump since they have JJ. But if the JJs are already being used, it'd make it hard to jump. I suppose if the WiGEMech wasn't moving at full speed then some JJs would be available to jump but that'd only work with the faster ones. And I'm guessing adding more JJs just to jump in vehicle mode, that didn't do anything, in Mech Mode isn't an option. Not without the Illegal Quirk.  >:D

Actually, Past-Herb, no. That's not been made an option; the option that costs a turret reduces the unit's CONVERSION GEAR slots, not Wheels slots. You're a moron, and you should feel bad. No, worse than that!

Can it be an option?

How about no? Because you misinterpreted the table again and seemed to think WiGEs shared the same MP as VTOLs, which they don't. Sorry, but you need to install jets for all your WiGE MP. It just sucks to be you if you're a WiGEMech. All the Seekers are laughing at you now. Especially Sky Seeker, because he's an ******.

-Present-Herb

I don't know about it sucking to be a WiGEMech but I don't think they'd be very happy being so slow. Unless they use IJJ they're not going to be any faster than TankMechs or FloatMechs. I'd of thought they'd be faster since they're paying tonnage and crits for their vehicle MPs.

Can an AutoMech be built as a non-converting AirMech?

[HABeas2]

They all have toys now? I know Arcee, Elita-One, and Chromia have toys. I didn't know the others did too. That's cool. And Elita-One flies?  :o  That's cool.
And the mini-choices sound good too.  :thumbsup:

Yeah. Power of the Primes Elita-One, I think, was the first flying version, and she was basically a retool of a Starscream that was designed to merge with other bots. She unites with those "slim-brick" cars to form Orthia, though the merging gimmick of that particular series also enabled her to unite with pretty much any Transformer capable of being a limb from the same series (in which case, she became "Elita-Infinite")

That is kind of funny. :) I suppose they could be like those newer bikes with two front wheels. Only with 4. Fewer crits would still be nice though.  ;)

Well, for THOSE, I ended up using the few trike tanks we have in BT. Gave a couple of those to the Junkion expy here. Alternatively, you could handwave that the wheels are just aligned so close to each other that they basically form a single wheel, kind of like how some of those experimental superheavy tanks used dual treads on each side.

That's cool but what about odd number MP?  Like 9 Running MP?  If we can't exceed the MP, that's only 4 IJJ for 8 Jumping/Thrust as they're 2MP each. Or am I misreading it and it's Number of JJ = Running MP? So 6/9/18 Movement?

Nope. IJJs are limited to Running MP; Standard JJs are up to Walk. If you have an odd number, you're gonna be forced to short-change your FighterMech on a Thrust Point.

So a WiGEMech with 6 JJs would have a 9 Cruising MP? I guess that's work if Taking off counts as 1 of the 5 forward movement MPs. (5 up and 4 forward. 5 Hexes forward each turn after.) It works for AirMechs, why not WiGEMechs?

Funny thing, that. The Syberian AutoMechs that transform are ALL bimodal. None have intermediate modes, which means there's no such thing as AirMech MPs among them.

Would Improved JJs be 3 MP per?

Sorry, dude; that got quashed by Present-Herb.

That's makes sense. I asked because WiGEs can mount JJs to jump, so I wondered if WiGEMechs could also jump since they have JJ. But if the JJs are already being used, it'd make it hard to jump. I suppose if the WiGEMech wasn't moving at full speed then some JJs would be available to jump but that'd only work with the faster ones. And I'm guessing adding more JJs just to jump in vehicle mode, that didn't do anything, in Mech Mode isn't an option. Not without the Illegal Quirk.  >:D

WiGEMechs CAN jump, just only in Mech mode. In WiGE mode, they need those thrusters to power their motion. And if we're using Illegal Quirk to justify anything under the sun, well, this whole conversation becomes moot.

Can it be an option?

As noted above, consider a "bike mode" WheelMech to simply be a very narrow vehicle which puts its front and rear wheels very close together. Many motorcycle transformers actually do this in their toys, commonly by splitting one or both wheels as they switch to robot mode.

I don't know about it sucking to be a WiGEMech but I don't think they'd be very happy being so slow. Unless they use IJJ they're not going to be any faster than TankMechs or FloatMechs. I'd of thought they'd be faster since they're paying tonnage and crits for their vehicle MPs.

Yyyyup. Just one of the tradeoffs for being an oddball unit type. As you can see in my spreadsheet, I have no named WiGEMechs in there at all.

Can an AutoMech be built as a non-converting AirMech?

If you mean to get AirMech movement modes, where the base Jump is tripled into AirMech MPs? Nope. Again, we have no tri-modal AutoMechs. The Syberians built them all to be bimodal, and never perfected middle-modes. You can build them to LOOK like AirMechs, but they won't BE AirMechs.

- Herb

[RifleMech]

Yeah. Power of the Primes Elita-One, I think, was the first flying version, and she was basically a retool of a Starscream that was designed to merge with other bots. She unites with those "slim-brick" cars to form Orthia, though the merging gimmick of that particular series also enabled her to unite with pretty much any Transformer capable of being a limb from the same series (in which case, she became "Elita-Infinite")

  :o Wow! That I definitely missed.

Well, for THOSE, I ended up using the few trike tanks we have in BT. Gave a couple of those to the Junkion expy here. Alternatively, you could handwave that the wheels are just aligned so close to each other that they basically form a single wheel, kind of like how some of those experimental superheavy tanks used dual treads on each side.

That would work.  :thumbsup:

Nope. IJJs are limited to Running MP; Standard JJs are up to Walk. If you have an odd number, you're gonna be forced to short-change your FighterMech on a Thrust Point.

That's a bummer for them.  :'(

Funny thing, that. The Syberian AutoMechs that transform are ALL bimodal. None have intermediate modes, which means there's no such thing as AirMech MPs among them.

That's cool. I wasn't thinking about having it transform but I guess if never had an intermediate form, they probably didn't think of just a plain AirMech.

Sorry, dude; that got quashed by Present-Herb.

The WiGEMechs are all bummed too. Poor WiGEMechs.  :'(

WiGEMechs CAN jump, just only in Mech mode. In WiGE mode, they need those thrusters to power their motion. And if we're using Illegal Quirk to justify anything under the sun, well, this whole conversation becomes moot.

That's cool. I do like the Illegal Quirk but it probably is better if it isn't over used.

As noted above, consider a "bike mode" WheelMech to simply be a very narrow vehicle which puts its front and rear wheels very close together. Many motorcycle transformers actually do this in their toys, commonly by splitting one or both wheels as they switch to robot mode.

Sounds good.  :thumbsup:

Yyyyup. Just one of the tradeoffs for being an oddball unit type. As you can see in my spreadsheet, I have no named WiGEMechs in there at all.

WiGEs are pretty oddball units. I think most people don't even know about them. I can't think of any WiGE Transformer type toy or character. It's kind of a shame since they are interesting vehicles.

Still, it is kind of odd that a WiGEMech only provides 1 hex movement while a JJ on a FighterMech provides 1 mapsheet movement.

If you mean to get AirMech movement modes, where the base Jump is tripled into AirMech MPs? Nope. Again, we have no tri-modal AutoMechs. The Syberians built them all to be bimodal, and never perfected middle-modes. You can build them to LOOK like AirMechs, but they won't BE AirMechs.

- Herb

Makes sense. I guess WiGEMechs would have to have a minimum number of 6 standard JJ or 3 IJJ to meet the minimum 5 MP Take Off and move 1 hex and Land. And they'd need 10 JJ or 5 IJJ to remain flying. 

[HABeas2]

That's cool. I do like the Illegal Quirk but it probably is better if it isn't over used.

Don't get me wrong, though: the Syberian AutoMechs are all Illegal by default, since they work on an AI system that is not covered by the standard, advanced, or even experimental rules. Not to mention that most have functionality that simply doesn't exist in the Inner Sphere.

WiGEs are pretty oddball units. I think most people don't even know about them. I can't think of any WiGE Transformer type toy or character. It's kind of a shame since they are interesting vehicles.

I think it boils down to the fact that there's little they can do that other vehicle types can do just as well without specialized engineering. Most WiGE attempts in real life have basically amounted to aircraft that skim across water. We could more economically use conventional ships and aircraft to do those things already. Still, folks seem to be playing around with GEVs today, so I guess it's still developing tech.

Still, it is kind of odd that a WiGEMech only provides 1 hex movement while a JJ on a FighterMech provides 1 mapsheet movement.

Yup, but that's how it worked for LAMs, so changing that formula won't fly (pun intended). If we wanted BattleTech to make more sense, we probably shouldn't have put LAMs in the system at all. But then the Syberians probably wouldn't exist either...even as a fun product. ;)

- Herb

[RifleMech]

Don't get me wrong, though: the Syberian AutoMechs are all Illegal by default, since they work on an AI system that is not covered by the standard, advanced, or even experimental rules. Not to mention that most have functionality that simply doesn't exist in the Inner Sphere.

That's cool. The Syberian AutoMechs may be Illegal by default but they do exist in the realm of possibility considering the existence of LAMs, QuadVees, and CASPAR Drones. The Syberian's just went further than the SLDF with drone and conversion tech the way the Clans did with weapons. So I think AutoMechs can fit right in. I imagine the Hell's Horses would love to get their hands on some to improve and expand on their QuadVees.

I think it boils down to the fact that there's little they can do that other vehicle types can do just as well without specialized engineering. Most WiGE attempts in real life have basically amounted to aircraft that skim across water. We could more economically use conventional ships and aircraft to do those things already. Still, folks seem to be playing around with GEVs today, so I guess it's still developing tech.

I'd guess they are still developing. They do have some advantages like moving cargo faster than a ship or hovercraft. I can't see them driving in rush hour traffic though. Or in any place with stop and go traffic or buildings. In a way, cars that can convert to aircraft are more practical.

Yup, but that's how it worked for LAMs, so changing that formula won't fly (pun intended). If we wanted BattleTech to make more sense, we probably shouldn't have put LAMs in the system at all. But then the Syberians probably wouldn't exist either...even as a fun product. ;)

- Herb

The formula for LAMs also included AirMech Movement which WiGEMechs don't get. Both use JJs, so it's kind of odd that their JJs provide so little thrust. But I suppose BattleMechs with the same number of JJs as a LAM but moving so much slower in space than is a bit odd too.

I am glad that LAMs and Syberians are in the system though.  :thumbsup:


Can any Mech type mount Rotors instead of Jump Jets?

[HABeas2]

That's cool. The Syberian AutoMechs may be Illegal by default but they do exist in the realm of possibility considering the existence of LAMs, QuadVees, and CASPAR Drones. The Syberian's just went further than the SLDF with drone and conversion tech the way the Clans did with weapons. So I think AutoMechs can fit right in. I imagine the Hell's Horses would love to get their hands on some to improve and expand on their QuadVees.

Now THAT'S how you wind up with Headmasters and Powermasters!

I'd guess they are still developing. They do have some advantages like moving cargo faster than a ship or hovercraft. I can't see them driving in rush hour traffic though. Or in any place with stop and go traffic or buildings. In a way, cars that can convert to aircraft are more practical.

Yeah, see, that's what concerns me most about them. Most of them tend to be big, because they need wingspan, and they need to get up to a certain speed to stay aloft, and they need a pretty level surface. All of this tends to make them rather impractical for combat, especially in cluttered terrain. But then again, the future of combat is in drones right now, so...

The formula for LAMs also included AirMech Movement which WiGEMechs don't get. Both use JJs, so it's kind of odd that their JJs provide so little thrust. But I suppose BattleMechs with the same number of JJs as a LAM but moving so much slower in space than is a bit odd too.

The rabbit hole of what makes little sense in BattleTech nearly reaches the earth's core.

Can any Mech type mount Rotors instead of Jump Jets?

VTOLMechs can. The others really can't. Mixing them up for multiple motive types is just a complkication too far for me, and reminds me of our initial triple-changer talk a few pages back now.

- Herb

[Wrangler]

When i read, VTOLMechs...my mind went to Voltron.   ;D

I do think the dropship non-transforming AutoMechs should have detachable command mech so it AI wasn't trapped on the ship all the time or controls bunch of Battle Armor sized drones who would act as it's arms & legs.

[HABeas2]

When i read, VTOLMechs...my mind went to Voltron.   ;D

I do think the dropship non-transforming AutoMechs should have detachable command mech so it AI wasn't trapped on the ship all the time or controls bunch of Battle Armor sized drones who would act as it's arms & legs.

Well, in some cases, these ships are "partnered" with another unit that is related to them via their Transformers theme. The Astrotrain DropShip is one such pair (Star Train Alpha and Beta, with the DropShip representing their "shuttle" mode, and the WheelMech representing their robot and vehicle modes), as is the Skylinks expy (Skylinker-One and -Two, where One is the shuttle form and Two is a robot/quad bestial type). In a few other cases, though, ship mode is all they get, because either they only rarely ever did much other than flew around, or because most continuities never gave them an alt mode to begin with. It's unlikely the Syberian AIs get "bored" as we'd know it anyway; they'd just go into a "sleep" mode until called upon or threatened. (Sleep mode for a Syberian AutoMech, though, might be full of endless replays of Solitaire or Minesweeper unless they got some better low-power distractions at hand.)

- Herb

[RifleMech]

Now THAT'S how you wind up with Headmasters and Powermasters!

Nah. WoB already started on those. :) I was thinking HH would initially expand on the types of motive systems QuadVees have and then advance from there until their converting mechs are more like piloted AutoMechs.

Would QuadVees be available as prototype/early AutoMechs?

Yeah, see, that's what concerns me most about them. Most of them tend to be big, because they need wingspan, and they need to get up to a certain speed to stay aloft, and they need a pretty level surface. All of this tends to make them rather impractical for combat, especially in cluttered terrain. But then again, the future of combat is in drones right now, so...

I think most tend to be big because they carry big cargo. I suppose if they could hover, they might be more practical. But then we'd probably be able to have hover conversions done on our cars. I don't know about impractical for combat. I do think they'd be more limited to open terrain and bodies of water.

The rabbit hole of what makes little sense in BattleTech nearly reaches the earth's core.

Only that far?  ;D

VTOLMechs can. The others really can't. Mixing them up for multiple motive types is just a complkication too far for me, and reminds me of our initial triple-changer talk a few pages back now.

- Herb

I wasn't thinking so much triple-changers but Mechs using Rotors instead of Jump Jets. Like Mech scale VTOL Infantry instead of Mech scale Jump Infantry.

[HABeas2]

Nah. WoB already started on those. :) I was thinking HH would initially expand on the types of motive systems QuadVees have and then advance from there until their converting mechs are more like piloted AutoMechs.

I seem to recall somewhere that one or more of the Clans somehow had gained access to VDNI tech and were looking into their own version of the Machina Domini interface system. Does anyone else remember something like that? A clan prototype that was basically their version of the Gestalt? If so, those "headmasters" are already closer than we'd like to think.

Would QuadVees be available as prototype/early AutoMechs?

Nerp! Although the tech is thematically related, Syberian engineering simply went its own way. But this is kind of moot, as Vehicle AutoMechs can be built with a quad Mech mode, so they're basically the same thing.

I wasn't thinking so much triple-changers but Mechs using Rotors instead of Jump Jets. Like Mech scale VTOL Infantry instead of Mech scale Jump Infantry.

Um, if you see the rules, VTOLMechs CAN use their rotors in Mech mode as well. They just provide only 1 VTOL MP in that form.

- Herb

[glitterboy2098]

I seem to recall somewhere that one or more of the Clans somehow had gained access to VDNI tech and were looking into their own version of the Machina Domini interface system. Does anyone else remember something like that? A clan prototype that was basically their version of the Gestalt? If so, those "headmasters" are already closer than we'd like to think.

Clan Wolf, who adapted the Machina Domini tech to employ EI to make the Clan Interface cockpit. the prototype was the Skinwalker, and apparently the Hells Horses have obtained the system and produced the Parash 3

[RifleMech]

I seem to recall somewhere that one or more of the Clans somehow had gained access to VDNI tech and were looking into their own version of the Machina Domini interface system. Does anyone else remember something like that? A clan prototype that was basically their version of the Gestalt? If so, those "headmasters" are already closer than we'd like to think.

I guess they're pretty close with 2 Clans using it.

Nerp! Although the tech is thematically related, Syberian engineering simply went its own way. But this is kind of moot, as Vehicle AutoMechs can be built with a quad Mech mode, so they're basically the same thing.

That's cool. I just wondered since QuadVees pay for their motive systems, making AutoMech's more advanced.

Um, if you see the rules, VTOLMechs CAN use their rotors in Mech mode as well. They just provide only 1 VTOL MP in that form.

- Herb

 :)  I figured VTOLMechs could. Which is cool.  :thumbsup: I was wondering about nonconverting mechs. I guess not. It's still a fun thought though.  ;)

Would Jump Jets on a VTOL Mech act as a VTOL Jet Booster or are VTOLMechs not allowed Jump Jets?

[HABeas2]

I guess they're pretty close with 2 Clans using it.

Yup. Tip of the hat to Glitterboy for the details! And since one is the Horses, and they made the QuadVees, well... Just one step away from Headmaster QuadVees. Toss in an independent AI and you have an Honest to Cat AutoMech in the Inner Sphere.

That's cool. I just wondered since QuadVees pay for their motive systems, making AutoMech's more advanced.

[/quote]

The Syberians clearly made some advances the Star League simply hadn't, and then decided to make Mechs that could turn into anything, so... it only figures that they have the better QuadVees to boot.

:)  I figured VTOLMechs could. Which is cool.  :thumbsup: I was wondering about nonconverting mechs. I guess not. It's still a fun thought though.  ;)

Sure. In a rather steam-punky kind of way.

Would Jump Jets on a VTOL Mech act as a VTOL Jet Booster or are VTOLMechs not allowed Jump Jets?

Nothing overtly bans it that I can see, but it may be a stretch to call it a VTOL Jet booster. Sometimes, a jump jet is just a jump jet.

- Herb

[RifleMech]

Yup. Tip of the hat to Glitterboy for the details! And since one is the Horses, and they made the QuadVees, well... Just one step away from Headmaster QuadVees. Toss in an independent AI and you have an Honest to Cat AutoMech in the Inner Sphere.

Yay, Glitterboy!  :thumbsup:

 >:D  Cool!  :thumbsup:

The Syberians clearly made some advances the Star League simply hadn't, and then decided to make Mechs that could turn into anything, so... it only figures that they have the better QuadVees to boot.

That's cool. I just figured they'd have to start someplace.

Sure. In a rather steam-punky kind of way.

Now I want to build a steam powered mech.  :)) Was disappointed TM didn't allow them for Mechs.

Nothing overtly bans it that I can see, but it may be a stretch to call it a VTOL Jet booster. Sometimes, a jump jet is just a jump jet.

- Herb

That's cool. I just wondered if JJs would give a VTOLMech a speed boost the way Jet Boosters would a VTOL.

Thanks :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

You know, it’s not exactly a Headmaster, but for at least some AutoMechs, they should have the critical spaces open for a Command Console…

[HABeas2]

That's cool. I just figured they'd have to start someplace.

You can always build them with an industrial chassis if you're looking for the "older" version, I suppose, but otherwise, nah.

Now I want to build a steam powered mech.  :)) Was disappointed TM didn't allow them for Mechs.

But just you wait. Just you waiiiit!

That's cool. I just wondered if JJs would give a VTOLMech a speed boost the way Jet Boosters would a VTOL.

Looking up the rules on Jet Boosters, the main hurdle is that it must be at least 10% of the engine's mass, so... hmmmm. It's sketchy, but if you put enough jump jets in your VTOLMech to meet that gear-to-engine-mass-ratio requirement, I could see successfully convincing a GM to let your VTOLMech achieve jet booster speeds--but only in VTOL mode. But in Mech mode, you'd have to explain which motive system you were using (Jump or VTOL) every time your Mech's feet left the ground, because the two movement types don't mix that way.

You know, it’s not exactly a Headmaster, but for at least some AutoMechs, they should have the critical spaces open for a Command Console…

Which may provide seating for an extra MechWarrior, but since the humans of Syberia went and died off...
We have some interesting possibilities here that might be the focus of a story, anyway: Your options for that second pilot are a human, or a second AI inside the AutoMech. In both cases, the unit would provide a non-stacking +2 Initiative modifier for their side thanks to having a dedicated "tactical mind" in play over and above the core AI's actual combat processing. But when we get into the weeds of how the meat vs. machine works, well, NOW it gets fun, because...

...If it's a human pilot, he acts as much like a Headmaster as you can imagine shy of being able to eject ad run around the field as a small armored unit (but you'd only get THAT with something like a Machina Domini interface suit anyway). The human MW can drive the AutoMech if it becomes disabled, much the way Chip did when he remote-puppeted Prowl in that G1 episode where his battle computers were off-lined. This makes an adventure in which a human can "hijack" an AutoMech much easier, as a potential AutoMech body-snatcher could just wait until the AutoMech is shutdown, sneak into its noggin', disable its core AI somehow, and drive the machine away like any ol' BattleMech. Unless and until the inert AutoMech comes on-line again, the human pilot can make use of all the AutoMech's functions, but not any of its programmed skills or personality, and if the AI DOES come on-line, and doesn't like the human trying to play it like that, well, the AI and the human may find themselves fighting to control the body, which the AI may have an advantage on only as long as the human doesn't want to hurt the AI's main CPU. (Remember that our Syberians can't be overridden remotely; for that, you'd need codes that died with the human Syberians centuries ago, and no AutoMech is able/willing to give them up.)

...If the second pilot is another AI, you have some FUN character options for that AutoMech, as the second pilot is potentially a fully realized Syberian AI unto itself--effectively making your AutoMech a dual-personality machine--which can be good or bad news. You could have two simultaneously active and communicative, but ultimately in-synch, AIs in one body--a Rack-n-Ruin kind of AutoMech--or you can have conflicting AIs in the body--which would result in something more like Animated Blitzwing.

But, ALTERNATIVELY, the second AI could be little more than a repository CPU for a previously lost leadership-skilled AutoMech, perhaps one that was salvaged from a shell blown apart ages ago, when the skies over Syberia were still filled with the ashes of recently-devastated humanity and the fires of the AutoMechs' human cities still smouldered. Over the decades and centuries since, its piloting and gunnery protocols have been overwritten with expanded tactical and strategic data--a wealth of knowledge from experience, poured in from the overflowing processors of the main pilot AI. Or perhaps this second pilot AI is like a backup storage for the main, edited by revisions the main AI--and any of its similarly-equipped predecessors--has accumulated through experience before transferring the second pilot AI to a new host. In THAT case, your second pilot could be a silent mentor, synchronized with the AutoMech's main CPU and crammed with knowledge beyond the host AutoMech's own "living" experiences, but able only to communicate effectively with the right host's primary CPU, rather than just any other AutoMech. In this case, your second pilot is more like a "Leadership Protocol" or a "Database of Leadership" or some such, that can be passed along in the event the primary AI is corrupted or destroyed. This last option, naturally, would be EXTREMELY rare indeed, perhaps even unique to just one special AutoMech!

- Herb