Author Topic: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)  (Read 100839 times)

Luciora

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #240 on: 24 March 2022, 22:03:00 »
I'm reminded of the one episode where Starscream, and I think long haul meet up with Merlin, via time travel shenanigans and The Decepticons invented gunpowder to fight the Autobots.  (Its been a while)

I think any auto/deceptis using steam or tech appropriate to the era must be hoarding energy, or really in a way, being a method-former (method actor) and wanting to really not stand out. 

Charistoph

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #241 on: 24 March 2022, 22:36:22 »
I'm reminded of the one episode where Starscream, and I think long haul meet up with Merlin, via time travel shenanigans and The Decepticons invented gunpowder to fight the Autobots.  (Its been a while)

I believe that is the Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court episode of the second season.  Rumble, Ravage, and Ramjet joined Starscream in the far past, with Hoist and Warpath following them.  Not the the most impressive episode, but still fun.
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ckosacranoid

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #242 on: 24 March 2022, 23:25:02 »
After reading this thread I am looking at some of the comments of the different worlds meeting and non have FTL to travel.
You do have all those wizards casting spells that open Gates to other worms a a few stick around for some reason.
You also have the superhero world and you know they have mad science somehow to visit new worlds and time lines that they seem to make up all the time in comics or explain all the aliens that show up from somewhere.
There is the thoughts of some of the weird monsters from add that have been used like very big dragons vs transformer or the huge track that seems to only be killed by beat down and a wish. The fighting of would you stat giants or some of very big things like Karmen.
The funny thought is the wizard looks at the platoon of stormtroops that open fire on the lone orc which is looking about to crap his pants after finding himself alive after 28 troopers open fire on him. Till the wizard does the face Palm and call the trooper idiots and tosses a lighting bolt at the orc killing the poor bastard.

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #243 on: 25 March 2022, 00:16:38 »
That's basically what you may start to get if the worlds of the CNAZ start actually interacting, such as the opening fiction of WttNC, where the original Grimdark somehow wound up on Toreel.

- Herb


Ooh so we might get myomer powered catapults and such?   ^-^

Sorry for bringing it up again but I am confused. Rule wise, what's the difference between the SLDF LB-X-P, and the Clan LB-X-Ps? They seem to follow the same rules and use IS ranges. I know that the Clans made them, and "Clan Bad", but they use SLDF technology. The Clans just did what the SLDF didn't want to. So are they Clan because the Clans made them or are they SLDF because they use SLDF technology?  :-\ ???


I believe that is the Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court episode of the second season.  Rumble, Ravage, and Ramjet joined Starscream in the far past, with Hoist and Warpath following them.  Not the the most impressive episode, but still fun.

Was that the episode where Warpath went jousting?  Does that mean we can have AutoMechs riding other AutoMechs? Maybe Mech sized converting Motorcycles will work after all.  >:D


After reading this thread I am looking at some of the comments of the different worlds meeting and non have FTL to travel.
You do have all those wizards casting spells that open Gates to other worms a a few stick around for some reason.
You also have the superhero world and you know they have mad science somehow to visit new worlds and time lines that they seem to make up all the time in comics or explain all the aliens that show up from somewhere.
There is the thoughts of some of the weird monsters from add that have been used like very big dragons vs transformer or the huge track that seems to only be killed by beat down and a wish. The fighting of would you stat giants or some of very big things like Karmen.
The funny thought is the wizard looks at the platoon of stormtroops that open fire on the lone orc which is looking about to crap his pants after finding himself alive after 28 troopers open fire on him. Till the wizard does the face Palm and call the trooper idiots and tosses a lighting bolt at the orc killing the poor bastard.


 :D ;D :))

glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #244 on: 25 March 2022, 00:17:20 »
depends on how far you want to take the idea that the california nebula remains part of the BT setting.. true D&D or superhero settings certainly might have that sort of ability, but as part of the battletech setting where KF drives are the only way to get around, it is heavily implied that they don't have such stuff. that the Star Empire next door lacks FTL would seem to support that idea.

that said, i could see anyone with fusion based sublight drives attempting for slowboat non-ftl travel of some sort (Syberians of course could probably just wait it out, or go into a hibernation mode on their AI's, while the human denizens of the star empire might try for a generation ship or cryogenic sleep). given the signifigant fractions of C that BT fusion drives can conceivably acheive, such trips would be reduced to 'merely' decades rather than centuries or millennia.

and i also wonder how many jumpships might have found their way into the region. exploration groups, refugees, colony efforts, etc. it seems to me that there might well have been a jarnfolk style nomadic spacers culture present.(and Cannonshop's story even had the Star League sending caspar type warships into the area to supply syberia)
« Last Edit: 25 March 2022, 00:56:58 by glitterboy2098 »

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #245 on: 25 March 2022, 07:47:35 »
After reading this thread I am looking at some of the comments of the different worlds meeting and non have FTL to travel.
You do have all those wizards casting spells that open Gates to other worms a a few stick around for some reason.
You also have the superhero world and you know they have mad science somehow to visit new worlds and time lines that they seem to make up all the time in comics or explain all the aliens that show up from somewhere.
There is the thoughts of some of the weird monsters from add that have been used like very big dragons vs transformer or the huge track that seems to only be killed by beat down and a wish. The fighting of would you stat giants or some of very big things like Karmen.
The funny thought is the wizard looks at the platoon of stormtroops that open fire on the lone orc which is looking about to crap his pants after finding himself alive after 28 troopers open fire on him. Till the wizard does the face Palm and call the trooper idiots and tosses a lighting bolt at the orc killing the poor bastard.

There is at least one story or two on the Fan Fiction boards about some Toreelans getting off-world via magic, including a really fun--but ultimately, incomplete--one about one getting all the way to the Inner Sphere. The reactions were brilliant!

The only trouble with a crossover is that, once you go big with one, the crossed universes won't be the same again. Toreel with Transformers? The Star Empire...with Transformers? Superheroes on Syberia? Superheroes on Toreel? In Toreel's case, higher-tech crossovers will eventually turn the world into Shadowrun. On Syberia, the AutoMechs might either be re-enslaved by humans or wiped out entirely as abominations. The Star Empire would probably change the least, but now that they're aware of others, the Emperor might be looking for some new real estate, so sooner or later we would see the Star Empire's Sith-analogs battling supers on Earth and bringing in a MASSIVE amount of starships, fighters, walkers, and troops to do it. Who wins between the Emperor and Professor Y, I'd wonder? (*looks* Hmmm, on the other hand, it seems we left no real rules for the Force/Fortune there, after all; it was just a way to describe high-EDG characters. Sucks to be the Emperor, I suppose.)

Of course, in my headcanon for the CNAZ, magic--including superpowers and the Force--are localized phenomena. Away from their worlds and/or systems, they're not supposed to keep working. Some of the more mundane abilities might linger a bit, but the notion is that something has warped the very laws of physics in those systems just enough to make it possible for conscious minds to bend them.

Ooh so we might get myomer powered catapults and such?   ^-^

Don't expect me to stat them.

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Sorry for bringing it up again but I am confused. Rule wise, what's the difference between the SLDF LB-X-P, and the Clan LB-X-Ps? They seem to follow the same rules and use IS ranges. I know that the Clans made them, and "Clan Bad", but they use SLDF technology. The Clans just did what the SLDF didn't want to. So are they Clan because the Clans made them or are they SLDF because they use SLDF technology?  :-\ ???

Clan because the Clans made them and that means their engineering leads to Clan technology, whereas the only reason Inner Sphere tech is turning to Clan tech in the 3150s is because they're finally figuring out how to economically copy Clan engineering, instead of relying on tried-and-true Inner Sphere methods. If it really didn't matter what the difference was, the end points would be the same, but they're not.

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Was that the episode where Warpath went jousting?  Does that mean we can have AutoMechs riding other AutoMechs? Maybe Mech sized converting Motorcycles will work after all.  >:D

Well, now, those would be the old External Cargo rules, now, wouldn't they?

depends on how far you want to take the idea that the california nebula remains part of the BT setting.. true D&D or superhero settings certainly might have that sort of ability, but as part of the battletech setting where KF drives are the only way to get around, it is heavily implied that they don't have such stuff. that the Star Empire next door lacks FTL would seem to support that idea.

that said, i could see anyone with fusion based sublight drives attempting for slowboat non-ftl travel of some sort (Syberians of course could probably just wait it out, or go into a hibernation mode on their AI's, while the human denizens of the star empire might try for a generation ship or cryogenic sleep). given the signifigant fractions of C that BT fusion drives can conceivably acheive, such trips would be reduced to 'merely' decades rather than centuries or millennia.

The big trouble with sublight interstellar warfare boils down to it being impossible to coordinate anything between the worlds, and thus reinforcements and support takes years, decades, or even centuries to arrive. You could have everything from an Ender's Game scenario or an Independence Day Resurgence scenario happening, wherein the tech of each side becomes radically different between waves until suddenly the target world isn't conquerable without WMDs. Few human-driven factions would want to try that, though explorers and colonists could certainly try.

And yes, the Syberians simply don't care how long it takes to get from Point A to Point B in interstellar space; Original Grimdark made it to Toreel at sublight.

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and i also wonder how many jumpships might have found their way into the region. exploration groups, refugees, colony efforts, etc. it seems to me that there might well have been a jarnfolk style nomadic spacers culture present.(and Cannonshop's story even had the Star League sending caspar type warships into the area to supply syberia)

Enough to colonize way more systems than we saw in WttNC, that's for sure! My map shows at least 23 worlds' worth of potential human encroachment.

- Herb

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #246 on: 25 March 2022, 13:07:17 »
Don't expect me to stat them.

I already have an idea about that.  >:D


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Clan because the Clans made them and that means their engineering leads to Clan technology, whereas the only reason Inner Sphere tech is turning to Clan tech in the 3150s is because they're finally figuring out how to economically copy Clan engineering, instead of relying on tried-and-true Inner Sphere methods. If it really didn't matter what the difference was, the end points would be the same, but they're not.

See that's what's confusing me. The prototypes I'm referring to were only expanded on what the Star League already had. Not unlike the IS expanding on PPCs with the  Light and Heavy classes. The Clans improved on the PPC and ERPPC with the Improved and Enhanced PPCs before improving them further with their ERPPC. So I'm confused. If they were prototypes for the improved Clan Tech, I'd understand but these are basically prototypes of IS production quality weapons. Oh well. It's not the first time BT has totally confused me.  :-\

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Well, now, those would be the old External Cargo rules, now, wouldn't they?

I'll have to look them up.  :thumbsup:

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Enough to colonize way more systems than we saw in WttNC, that's for sure! My map shows at least 23 worlds' worth of potential human encroachment.

- Herb

:) Lots of opportunities for other than normal to happen.
« Last Edit: 25 March 2022, 13:16:24 by RifleMech »

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #247 on: 25 March 2022, 14:42:53 »
See that's what's confusing me. The prototypes I'm referring to were only expanded on what the Star League already had. Not unlike the IS expanding on PPCs with the  Light and Heavy classes. The Clans improved on the PPC and ERPPC with the Improved and Enhanced PPCs before improving them further with their ERPPC. So I'm confused. If they were prototypes for the improved Clan Tech, I'd understand but these are basically prototypes of IS production quality weapons. Oh well. It's not the first time BT has totally confused me.  :-\

Technically speaking, all Clan tech derives from Star League tech, and is what you get when you focus on improving your gizmos over a few centuries instead of letting your enemies flatten all your manufacturers willy-nilly, while a shadowy "neutral" party casually erases all the back-ups even as you keep paying them for the phone service. But when you say "the prototypes are the same, whether Clan or Inner Sphere," I start hearing a whispered "...so it's only a matter of time before they work out Clan technology!" in there, and I get...irked. I don't want my Syberians tainted by anything with the Clan label. They're G1, damn it, not anime Transformers! The Clans, with their furry tendencies and rampant sexuality, are anime, and I won't have it in my Syberian headcanon, Cat damn it! Grrrr!  :ticked:

- Herb

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #248 on: 25 March 2022, 15:17:45 »
Technically speaking, all Clan tech derives from Star League tech, and is what you get when you focus on improving your gizmos over a few centuries instead of letting your enemies flatten all your manufacturers willy-nilly, while a shadowy "neutral" party casually erases all the back-ups even as you keep paying them for the phone service. But when you say "the prototypes are the same, whether Clan or Inner Sphere," I start hearing a whispered "...so it's only a matter of time before they work out Clan technology!" in there, and I get...irked. I don't want my Syberians tainted by anything with the Clan label. They're G1, damn it, not anime Transformers! The Clans, with their furry tendencies and rampant sexuality, are anime, and I won't have it in my Syberian headcanon, Cat damn it! Grrrr!  :ticked:

- Herb



:)  It wouldn't be me doing that. Things that are more advanced than Star League Tech are Clan Tech, post 3060 IS Tech, or Third League Tech.  ;D Some more advanced IS tech is arguable based on fluff. If I used those items they'd be very rare or limited just to special teams. But the advanced Clan Tech stuff is out.  :thumbsup:

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #249 on: 25 March 2022, 15:21:19 »
:)  It wouldn't be me doing that. Things that are more advanced than Star League Tech are Clan Tech, post 3060 IS Tech, or Third League Tech.  ;D Some more advanced IS tech is arguable based on fluff. If I used those items they'd be very rare or limited just to special teams. But the advanced Clan Tech stuff is out.  :thumbsup:

... Third League Tech... *sniff*

- Herb

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #250 on: 25 March 2022, 16:32:34 »
... Third League Tech... *sniff*

- Herb

 :-\  What's wrong with Third League Tech?

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #251 on: 25 March 2022, 16:42:05 »
:-\  What's wrong with Third League Tech?

Nothing... I just... had such high hopes for it...

*sigh*

So, anyway, about these AutoMechs?

- Herb

glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #252 on: 25 March 2022, 16:44:04 »
No! NO CLAN STUFF! *baps RifleMech on the nose with a rolled up AARP magazine*
the only clan item i could possibly see is chemical lasers, since they are supposed to be older tech from before even the development of standard lasers. but even then we don't know what an IS tech version would have for stats.


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PresiDom = Presidential Domains (Aligned with DemoCon).
what background did you have in mind?

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #253 on: 25 March 2022, 19:11:58 »
Nothing... I just... had such high hopes for it...

*sigh*

So, anyway, about these AutoMechs?

- Herb

Oh. I liked them. I'm hoping they'll become standard one day. Or maybe they could show up in the Nebula?

Third League Tech AutoMechs?  :o   >:D The Urbie LAM lives!  ;D :thumbsup:


the only clan item i could possibly see is chemical lasers, since they are supposed to be older tech from before even the development of standard lasers. but even then we don't know what an IS tech version would have for stats.

I was wondering about the Operation Klondike Prototypes because they just expanded on Star League tech the same way the IS did later on with Blazers and Light and Heavy PPCs. The Star League could have produced them. They just didn't.  Improved or more advanced though I would say is out. Except physical weapons, unless there's an IS version, and chemical lasers as they're an older weapon. There's other things that I'd be okay with in very limited quantities because fluff for SLDF units mentions those kind of abilities. Some would probably need quirks though do to crit limits. Beyond that though...it gets slippery.

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #254 on: 25 March 2022, 20:32:41 »
the only clan item i could possibly see is chemical lasers, since they are supposed to be older tech from before even the development of standard lasers. but even then we don't know what an IS tech version would have for stats.

I suppose, but we'd be talking something noticeably inferior to what the Clans made, which is basically a slightly cooler, ammo-dependent version of the standard Inner Sphere laser system. Their optimal value is on vehicles, because they get counted as ballistic weapons on those units, ProtoMechs, and conventional fighters--requiring no heat sinks or power amplifiers to maintain their effectiveness. But the Syberian AutoMechs are mostly 'Mechs and aerospace units, which DO require heat sinks to handle such weapons and usually DON'T require power amps for energy weapons anyway. Toss in the explosive chemical laser "ammo," and it's more risk to use them than it is to use a standard laser. (There was a reason such weapons went obsolete, as you can probably see now.)

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what background did you have in mind?

Honestly? Not sure. Similar to the Democratic Conglomerate, I imagined them to be something like a corporatocracy feigning or abusing democratic principles in the name of legitimacy. You know, the kind of state that claims it gives its people what they want by holding meaningless elections while ensuring that no foreign commercial competition exists within their borders that doesn't feed the money back toward its ruling elite in a closed cycle. The freedom of the company store. That kind of thing. And I kind of saw their AutoMechs taking animal and monster forms as a result of their initially being meant for entertainment like a kind of high-tech, robotic answer to Jurassic Park or as automated gladiators.

Oh. I liked them. I'm hoping they'll become standard one day. Or maybe they could show up in the Nebula?

AutoMechs? They're already there. That's kind of what this whole thread is about, isn't it?

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Third League Tech AutoMechs?  :o   >:D The Urbie LAM lives!  ;D :thumbsup:

Now you're just trying to piss me off...
*turns in the rolled up AARP magazine and reaches for the first edition of Strategic Operations*
C'mere, kid...

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I was wondering about the Operation Klondike Prototypes because they just expanded on Star League tech the same way the IS did later on with Blazers and Light and Heavy PPCs. The Star League could have produced them. They just didn't.  Improved or more advanced though I would say is out. Except physical weapons, unless there's an IS version, and chemical lasers as they're an older weapon. There's other things that I'd be okay with in very limited quantities because fluff for SLDF units mentions those kind of abilities. Some would probably need quirks though do to crit limits. Beyond that though...it gets slippery.

IF we were to allow prototyping of post-3050 Inner Sphere technology, my advocacy would be to apply the Inner Sphere Recovered Tech Prototype rules in conjunction with any new item added to the list as appropriate, limit everything strictly to its Inner Sphere format, and a MAXIMUM intro date of 3060 tech. This would give us:

*All the LB-X ACs
*All the Ultra ACs
*Light Gauss Rifle
*All the ER Lasers
*Snub-Nose PPC (gets a pass on its 3067 intro date by dint of having been in active development back in the 2780s)
*All Streak SRMs
*NO MRMs - They came out pre-3060, but are not really Star League derived.
*All Rocket Launchers (they were around as far back as the Reunification Wars in Primitive format, and the IS revived them in 3050, apparently, so...why not?)
*Special Exemption: NO C3 tech. I hate that crap! I DO like the proposed "C3-light" that was discussed here a few pages back, as it was solidly researched and traced back top SL origins, whereas the Dracs apparently devised their C3s independently; I could see using that "light C3" tech as an item specific to bonded teams, though. In other words, that tech is what makes the "combiners," "triple changers," and "mobile city groups" coordinate so well. (The cassettes are still drones linked to their host unit.)

As to small drones--the ones we've been talking about on a battle armor scale--I can actually see letting them have the BA-scale equivalents to all "unlocked" weapons, rather than sitting on them by intro date. But just remember that battle armor drones are built using Inner Sphere tech with the heavier Clan chassis weight to represent their internal robotics (which are tactically equivalent to the +1 point of "pilot" each suit gets in combat).

- Herb

glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #255 on: 25 March 2022, 22:10:44 »
Honestly? Not sure. Similar to the Democratic Conglomerate, I imagined them to be something like a corporatocracy feigning or abusing democratic principles in the name of legitimacy. You know, the kind of state that claims it gives its people what they want by holding meaningless elections while ensuring that no foreign commercial competition exists within their borders that doesn't feed the money back toward its ruling elite in a closed cycle. The freedom of the company store. That kind of thing. And I kind of saw their AutoMechs taking animal and monster forms as a result of their initially being meant for entertainment like a kind of high-tech, robotic answer to Jurassic Park or as automated gladiators.
perhaps a collection of private holdings within or nearby to the Axilon facility belonging to various oligarchs? so they're fighting over much the same resources (including the dome itself) as a remnant of old internal power struggles over control of the project that built the biodome complex. would let them use much the same mix of automech types as the AxiMaLs, since they started as basically the private zookeepers and defenses of groups within the project's organization, using basically the same plans and factory sources.

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #256 on: 26 March 2022, 00:53:56 »
I suppose, but we'd be talking something noticeably inferior to what the Clans made, which is basically a slightly cooler, ammo-dependent version of the standard Inner Sphere laser system. Their optimal value is on vehicles, because they get counted as ballistic weapons on those units, ProtoMechs, and conventional fighters--requiring no heat sinks or power amplifiers to maintain their effectiveness. But the Syberian AutoMechs are mostly 'Mechs and aerospace units, which DO require heat sinks to handle such weapons and usually DON'T require power amps for energy weapons anyway. Toss in the explosive chemical laser "ammo," and it's more risk to use them than it is to use a standard laser. (There was a reason such weapons went obsolete, as you can probably see now.)

Yeah, I never got that. Did the Clans just build new chemical lasers from old plans or did they upgrade them? They match IS performance which makes me think that they just went with old plans. I would think that if they'd upgraded them, they'd be lighter. The exploding ammo would be a problem as well as heat for AutoMechs. I suppose if they were using FCE they might think about them. They wouldn't need power amplifiers. And they would be good for non-converting vehicle AIs. 


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AutoMechs? They're already there. That's kind of what this whole thread is about, isn't it?

I like them too. I meant Third League Tech though.

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Now you're just trying to piss me off...
*turns in the rolled up AARP magazine and reaches for the first edition of Strategic Operations*
C'mere, kid...

 :toofunny: :toofunny:


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IF we were to allow prototyping of post-3050 Inner Sphere technology, my advocacy would be to apply the Inner Sphere Recovered Tech Prototype rules in conjunction with any new item added to the list as appropriate, limit everything strictly to its Inner Sphere format, and a MAXIMUM intro date of 3060 tech. This would give us:

The cost modifiers in IO page 186 or do you mean the Primitive Prototype Equipment rules on page 118?  ???

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*All the LB-X ACs
*All the Ultra ACs
*Light Gauss Rifle
*All the ER Lasers
*Snub-Nose PPC (gets a pass on its 3067 intro date by dint of having been in active development back in the 2780s)
*All Streak SRMs
*NO MRMs - They came out pre-3060, but are not really Star League derived.
*All Rocket Launchers (they were around as far back as the Reunification Wars in Primitive format, and the IS revived them in 3050, apparently, so...why not?)

So the Light and Heavy PPCs, the Heavy Gauss Rifle and LACs don't make the list. Oh well. That's still a lot to play with. :) What about MMLs? They're 3068 but just odd sized LRMs and SRMs in the same package. Not that I use them much either. Just wondering.

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*Special Exemption: NO C3 tech. I hate that crap! I DO like the proposed "C3-light" that was discussed here a few pages back, as it was solidly researched and traced back top SL origins, whereas the Dracs apparently devised their C3s independently; I could see using that "light C3" tech as an item specific to bonded teams, though. In other words, that tech is what makes the "combiners," "triple changers," and "mobile city groups" coordinate so well. (The cassettes are still drones linked to their host unit.)

Do you mean the combat computer on the Fury Tank I mentioned earlier or something else? C3 isn't my favorite either but I'd only use it on combiners as a special team equipment.


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As to small drones--the ones we've been talking about on a battle armor scale--I can actually see letting them have the BA-scale equivalents to all "unlocked" weapons, rather than sitting on them by intro date. But just remember that battle armor drones are built using Inner Sphere tech with the heavier Clan chassis weight to represent their internal robotics (which are tactically equivalent to the +1 point of "pilot" each suit gets in combat).

- Herb

These would just be IS BA Weapons and equipment, right?

Thanks :)  :thumbsup: :beer:

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #257 on: 26 March 2022, 08:32:42 »
perhaps a collection of private holdings within or nearby to the Axilon facility belonging to various oligarchs? so they're fighting over much the same resources (including the dome itself) as a remnant of old internal power struggles over control of the project that built the biodome complex. would let them use much the same mix of automech types as the AxiMaLs, since they started as basically the private zookeepers and defenses of groups within the project's organization, using basically the same plans and factory sources.

Could work, yeah.

Yeah, I never got that. Did the Clans just build new chemical lasers from old plans or did they upgrade them? They match IS performance which makes me think that they just went with old plans. I would think that if they'd upgraded them, they'd be lighter. The exploding ammo would be a problem as well as heat for AutoMechs. I suppose if they were using FCE they might think about them. They wouldn't need power amplifiers. And they would be good for non-converting vehicle AIs. 

It's implied, I think, that they did improve them to achieve the results they got. Remember that the Clan heavy lasers are also basically IS in terms of range and mass, but with heat and damage equal to double them. If a theoretical Clan version of the standard-strength laser is simply half the weight, you'd get the heavy laser simply by mounting such standard lasers in pairs.

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I like them too. I meant Third League Tech though.

*conspicuous silence*

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The cost modifiers in IO page 186 or do you mean the Primitive Prototype Equipment rules on page 118?  ???

Cost has nothing to do with it. The AutoMechs don't have an economic system as we know it. I mean the gameplay and construction rules, on whichever page of whichever book they happen to be in. (My books here are all from pre-2016.)

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So the Light and Heavy PPCs, the Heavy Gauss Rifle and LACs don't make the list. Oh well. That's still a lot to play with. :) What about MMLs? They're 3068 but just odd sized LRMs and SRMs in the same package. Not that I use them much either. Just wondering.

Nope.

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Do you mean the combat computer on the Fury Tank I mentioned earlier or something else? C3 isn't my favorite either but I'd only use it on combiners as a special team equipment.

Was that you who made up some rules for them? I can't recall.

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These would just be IS BA Weapons and equipment, right?

No, they'd be 1945 BA Weapons and equipment!  ::) Of course they'd be IS BA weapons, you goof! I said BA equivalents to all "unlocked" weapons, meaning all the weapons we allow the Syberians to have, and I also said that the BAs are built with IS tech, with Clan chassis weights used only to reflect the AI robotics inside.

Here, an example of what I mean:

Code: [Select]
Type: C-101 Legionnaire
Technology Base: Cyberic (Battlesuit)
Mass: 400 kg
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes
AToW BAR Values: 4/5/6/5; E/I/C: 0/0/0/0

Equipment Slots Mass (kg)
Internal Structure: Robotic 130
Motive System:
Ground MP: 3 50
Jump MP: 0 0
Manipulators:
Right Arm: Basic Manipulator 0
Left Arm: Basic Manipulator 0
Armor: Standard 100
Armor Value: 2 + 1 (Console)

Weapons and Ammo Location Slots Mass (kg)
None -- -- --

That is a battlesuit made as I recommended (unarmed because it's meant to carry weapons by hand). Every component in the construction data is of standard Inner Sphere weight except for the internal chassis, which uses the heavier Clan weight. (Inner Sphere chassis weights are lighter because they lack the HarJel sealing and other other life-sustaining subsystems the Clans use; at the scale of the suit shown here, an Inner Sphere version would have an 80 kg Internal Structure.

- Herb

Daryk

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #258 on: 26 March 2022, 08:52:54 »
You knew I'd have to ask eventually... Blazer Cannons?  ???  :D

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #259 on: 26 March 2022, 09:48:05 »
You knew I'd have to ask eventually... Blazer Cannons?  ???  :D

I do figure the Blazer is within their reach; it's development came less than 20 years later, and it was not really that clever an idea when you get down to it. 'Course, given its "iffy" nature, where it's basically not too viable without double heat sinks, anyone who thought "Ooo! Let's do this with other weapons!" would have been slapped, forestalling a whole series of "just glue two guns together" systems (outside of how we got all those extra missile launcher racks and probably the Ultra AC).

So, yeah, a blazer cannon might be possible for our Syberians.

- Herb

Daryk

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #260 on: 26 March 2022, 10:15:54 »
Woo!  Blazers FTW!  :D

Luciora

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #261 on: 26 March 2022, 11:58:17 »
You know Wheeljack-analogue probably used one for a while  ;D

Daryk

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #262 on: 26 March 2022, 12:22:56 »
As far as doing the Blazer thing with Mediums or Smalls, Smalls are right out.  A single Medium Laser is better overall.  A Medium one MIGHT be useful (7 or 8 points of damage for 6 heat at 3/6/9 range could be worth it, but I'd usually rather have two Mediums).

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #263 on: 26 March 2022, 13:00:56 »
You know Wheeljack-analogue probably used one for a while  ;D

And his shock-blast cannon was probably a faulty snub-nosed PPC prototype. ;)

As far as doing the Blazer thing with Mediums or Smalls, Smalls are right out.  A single Medium Laser is better overall.  A Medium one MIGHT be useful (7 or 8 points of damage for 6 heat at 3/6/9 range could be worth it, but I'd usually rather have two Mediums).

Which is why we won't be seeing those. :) Hell, I *considered* adding in an AC/15, but the last time I tried to stat one, I found that it was outperformed in every way by the Gauss Rifle, and thus was pointless.

And so... here we are.

- Herb

Daryk

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #264 on: 26 March 2022, 16:16:22 »
A 3025-tech AC/15 SHOULD be outperformed by a Gauss Rifle in every way... no worries on that score!  :thumbsup:

Seriously, 4/8/12 range, 5 heat, 13 tons, 9 crits and 7 (or even 6) rounds per ton would be absolutely perfect!  :)

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #265 on: 26 March 2022, 19:18:40 »
It's implied, I think, that they did improve them to achieve the results they got. Remember that the Clan heavy lasers are also basically IS in terms of range and mass, but with heat and damage equal to double them. If a theoretical Clan version of the standard-strength laser is simply half the weight, you'd get the heavy laser simply by mounting such standard lasers in pairs.

That's the thing though. I'm not sure it's implied or not. We know they found chemical lasers in their archives and decided to try them. But did they go with the plans from the archives or did they reinvent them? I would have thought that if they'd reinvented them they'd be lighter.


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Cost has nothing to do with it. The AutoMechs don't have an economic system as we know it. I mean the gameplay and construction rules, on whichever page of whichever book they happen to be in. (My books here are all from pre-2016.)

So the Primitive Prototype Rules? The ones where energy weapons generate 50% more heat and ballistic weapons jam on a 2 and have 3/4s the ammo?


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Nope.

Was that you who made up some rules for them? I can't recall.

That's cool.

The ones for the Nirasaki Combat Computer on the Fury Tank? Yeah, that was me.


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No, they'd be 1945 BA Weapons and equipment!  ::) Of course they'd be IS BA weapons, you goof! I said BA equivalents to all "unlocked" weapons, meaning all the weapons we allow the Syberians to have, and I also said that the BAs are built with IS tech, with Clan chassis weights used only to reflect the AI robotics inside.

Oooh 1945 BA weapons!  ;D  IS is good. I'm going to guess IS Infantry weapons too.


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Here, an example of what I mean:

Looks good.

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That is a battlesuit made as I recommended (unarmed because it's meant to carry weapons by hand). Every component in the construction data is of standard Inner Sphere weight except for the internal chassis, which uses the heavier Clan weight. (Inner Sphere chassis weights are lighter because they lack the HarJel sealing and other other life-sustaining subsystems the Clans use; at the scale of the suit shown here, an Inner Sphere version would have an 80 kg Internal Structure.

- Herb

Sounds good.  :thumbsup:



Which is why we won't be seeing those. :) Hell, I *considered* adding in an AC/15, but the last time I tried to stat one, I found that it was outperformed in every way by the Gauss Rifle, and thus was pointless.

And so... here we are.

- Herb

I don't think the AC/15 would be pointless. Sure the Gauss Rifle is better but not every unit has an extra 2 tons to mount it. It'd also be easier to build for those who's lost the ability to make Gauss Rifles. The AC also has alternative munitions so that's another plus in the AC/15's favor.

A Small Blazer I can see being pointless. Just go with a Medium and get better range. A Blazer that fits in between the Medium and Large Lasers though. That I can see.

Something like
Light Blazer Cannon
Heat 6
Damage 7
Range 0/4/8/12
Weight 3 tons


A 3025-tech AC/15 SHOULD be outperformed by a Gauss Rifle in every way... no worries on that score!  :thumbsup:

Seriously, 4/8/12 range, 5 heat, 13 tons, 9 crits and 7 (or even 6) rounds per ton would be absolutely perfect!  :)

I think so. :) I think if the AC/15 had been available, a lot of units would have downgraded from the Gauss Rifle to it rather than the AC/10.

Daryk

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #266 on: 26 March 2022, 19:48:03 »
That's not a Blazer, though... to make one, you take two existing laser cores, get all the heat, the same range, and 1.5 x the damage...

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #267 on: 26 March 2022, 20:11:56 »
That's the thing though. I'm not sure it's implied or not. We know they found chemical lasers in their archives and decided to try them. But did they go with the plans from the archives or did they reinvent them? I would have thought that if they'd reinvented them they'd be lighter.

As the words (that I wrote) put it: "Seeking a more weight-economical alternative to vehicle-mounted lasers (which often require power amplifiers on non-fusion units), Clan Hell's Horses recently returned to the chemical laser concept. Though reliance on chemical "ammunition" (which remains as energetic and highly toxic as the early laser versions) promises to reduce their endurance in combat, the resulting weapons may be mounted on non-fusion vehicles without requiring power packs or heat sinks." (p. 320, TO).

The Horses returned to the concept of these weapons, not the actual lasers themselves, dusted off. A paragraph before, those lasers were classified as "the first effective energy weapons able to physically damage robust targets, like solid-fueled missiles and unarmored military vehicles," and were a reference weapons to basically the present state of laser weaponry today in 21st century. Even then, such weapons are useful only as anti-missile and anti-light vehicle weapons...things with a fairly thin skin of aluminum or sheet metal. In BT terms, we're talking maybe BAR 3-4, or maybe 5 if lucky...over the course of a second or three. That's early Tech C stuff, at best. What the Horses developed, at a tech rating of E, is powerful enough to slice into BAR 10 armor in a fraction of a second. It's not the same gear at all; it's an old idea that was reworked to 31st-century standards.

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So the Primitive Prototype Rules? The ones where energy weapons generate 50% more heat and ballistic weapons jam on a 2 and have 3/4s the ammo?

... Have the Inner Sphere Recovered Tech Prototype rules been dropped? pp. 102-104, original IO? Where energy weapons had +1D6 heat and a +1 to-hit modifier (reducing pulse lasers to only a -1 bonus, and saddling ERs with a +1), Ultras jammed on 4 while LBs jammed on 2, cluster hit tables for LBs were -1, but most other range, damage, mass, ammo counts, and crit space stats (with a few minor exceptions) were as they were in their perfected form.

But still, if you already have the production models of all those SL weapons and their most logical updates available at my 3060 cut-off, what are you asking for that's worth it with such handicaps?

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The ones for the Nirasaki Combat Computer on the Fury Tank? Yeah, that was me.

Yup. Not crazy with how light they are, and would likely have to indicate why they can't be used with just any old unit for our Syberians (maybe the networks are hard-wired and require extended reprogramming to link with other "combiners"), but you did the research, and found a way to justify it being "available" to our Syberian settlers, so it comes into the realm of the possible.

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Oooh 1945 BA weapons!  ;D  IS is good. I'm going to guess IS Infantry weapons too.

Of course! (Also: Damn you for making me think up rules for building 1945 battle armor....)

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I don't think the AC/15 would be pointless. Sure the Gauss Rifle is better but not every unit has an extra 2 tons to mount it. It'd also be easier to build for those who's lost the ability to make Gauss Rifles. The AC also has alternative munitions so that's another plus in the AC/15's favor.

IF your force commonly uses alternate munitions, which most don't.
Here are the only advantages over the Gauss Rifle I found with my AC/15 idea: 2 tons lighter. No Minimum Range. Weapon does not explode on a critical.
Here's where the GR outperforms it: 4 points less heat. 10 hexes greater Long range. 2 crits smaller. GR is already proven; AC/15 hasn't even been prototyped yet. (Unlike Daryk's version, I came to an ammo count equal to that of the GR, by splitting the difference between the AC/10 & AC/20, then rounding up instead of down.)
If you DO drag C-bill cost into this, BTW, the AC/15 comes in at 25K, which is 5K cheaper than the GR, but again, the Syberians don't have a money-driven economy.

So, you would really only be picking your AC/15 if you were tons-poor, crit-rich, had the heat sinks to spare, AND you were more confident than not that the weapon would take a hit. (Or you were just a cheap bastard in a C-bill economy.) Is that all worth the R&D costs?

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A Small Blazer I can see being pointless. Just go with a Medium and get better range. A Blazer that fits in between the Medium and Large Lasers though. That I can see.

Something like
Light Blazer Cannon
Heat 6
Damage 7
Range 0/4/8/12
Weight 3 tons

How did your range go up? The Blazer uses the standard LL's range. A Medium Blazer would have the ML's range.

That's not a Blazer, though... to make one, you take two existing laser cores, get all the heat, the same range, and 1.5 x the damage...

And, what Daryk said...

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I think so. :) I think if the AC/15 had been available, a lot of units would have downgraded from the Gauss Rifle to it rather than the AC/10.

Shame the IS factions decided it wasn't worth the R&D costs. ;) Or maybe the Blazer just won the generals over and took all the AC/15's funding...because if ANYONE was gonna throw money at a lower-tech answer to the GR, it WOULD be Steiner.

- Herb
« Last Edit: 26 March 2022, 20:57:04 by HABeas2 »

Daryk

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #268 on: 26 March 2022, 20:25:08 »
I suppose there was always the Thumper...  ^-^

Charistoph

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #269 on: 26 March 2022, 21:14:12 »
Shame the IS factions decided it wasn't worth the R&D costs. ;) Or maybe the Blazer just won the generals over and took all the AC/15's funding...because if ANYONE was gonna throw money at a lower-tech answer to the GR, it WOULD be Steiner.

Right...  It wouldn't be a faction known for autocannon love and which worked out how to make what was basically snub-nosed autocannons and then strap six of them together to go BRRRT, it would be the faction which developed Light and Silver Bullet Gauss.
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