Author Topic: Abstract/Mapless Combat  (Read 949 times)

Dahmin_Toran

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 427
Abstract/Mapless Combat
« on: 30 December 2022, 22:46:27 »
I believe that one of the things missing in all Mechwarrior RPGs is mapless, abstract mech/vehicle combat. Although you can easily convert Piloting (or Driving) and Gunnery and play on a map. I came up with a (hopefully) simple system for Theatre of the Mind using a modified form of the Abstract Aerospace Combat Rules from Strategic Operations (p.21). This would be geared towards RPG sessions and VTT sessions.

Here is what I came up with:

 • Each Mech (or Aerospace Fighter or Tank) makes an (Average) Piloting roll.
 • If both pilots succeed, the winner (highest total) picks the range (Close/Short/Medium/Long). Ties go to highest MoS. If there is still a tie, the range is Medium.
 • I would base the initial ranges on Alpha Strike (but in Hexes), so Close is 0, Short is 3, Medium is 12, and Long is 21.
 • The Winner can change the initial range +/- based on the MoS. To a minimum of 0.
 • You can change the initial ranges based on other systems, so if you want to use Battleforce, you can use 0/1/4/8 for the initial ranges.
 • If one pilot succeeds and the other fails, the Winning pilot picks the range AND attacks from the Rear.
 • If both pilots fail, the range is Long.
 
Otherwise combat is the same in A Time of War, Mechwarrior Destiny or Total Warfare. So what do you guys think? Not too finicky?

Prospernia

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 964
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #1 on: 30 December 2022, 23:22:09 »
Fasa's Legionnaire had a mapless system too.  You're pilot-skill roll-system is also very similar to Fuzion's combat-system. 

I like your simplification of ranges.  We haven't tried that for Mechwarrior, as we always liked the maps; we did, however, try a abstract battle for Cyberpunk's Maximum-Metal (Fuzion) after just getting done playing lots of Battletech for months.  It was difficult to adjust.  Even though, Max.Metal was more realistic, in terms of combat with initiative and penetration of armor, but Battletech provides structure to the game, even if it's more exact, yet, abstract.

Fuzion has a compared and contested-roll to see who's behind who. The greater the difference, the more likely one jet is behind the other. 

Failure16

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2379
  • Better Days
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #2 on: 30 December 2022, 23:54:29 »
Destiny's system is much an extrapolation of Legionnaire's abstract combat system, that is correct. And it works, by the way. Worth searching out, if you are able.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Kerfuffin(925)

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3700
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #3 on: 31 December 2022, 02:12:08 »
Yeah destiny uses a FATE like series of range bands so all you really need is a scrap of paper to determine ranges (really only if you/your players cant keep track). Destiny is pretty good for TotM style combat if you can keep it straight.
NCKestrel’s new favorite.

Aotrs Commander

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 762
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #4 on: 31 December 2022, 06:25:35 »
I can only speak for myself (and by extension from my own group and experiences), but I will have to sound off in the negative here.

I strongly advise you don't; at least not in this fashion. It sounds like you're trying to short-cut doing any kind of map, and that will lead to inherently a worse experience. I believe theatre of the mind is more problematic to run because you have to keep everything spacially in mind for at least yourself (I have, in 33 years of DMing attempted it only extremely rarely, and for throw-away combat I just really couldn't be bothered about.) It's not like scribble map on a sheet of paper is much effort, even if you don't want to use actual figures. Even in a normal RPG, to do theatre of the mind combat requires the DM to be described everything, the terrain, the PCs, what they are doing. You can sort of get away with some sort of abstraction in something like a chase, but then, you're only worrying about relatively distances, and it's easier to do so because you're only concerned about opening and closing that distance - chases are, of course, very linear by nature. Indeed, most of chase rules I've seen work largely in this fashion. But they ONLY work for chases.

Your system isn't even trying here, I'll be honest; you've abstracted away movement - which you wouldn't even do in a normal RPG, whther you use a map or not. By removing any kind of maneouvering, you remove a critical (nay even, the single most important element of combat). You will get the Paradom Grand Stratagy Combat Problem as well, that for all the complexity, it boils down to just "two blobs rolling dice at each other until something dies" or, at best"two blobs of units moving slowly towards each other. You have also directly taken away any kind of agency from the PCs, because you've abstracted it down to just opposed rolls (combat is just now RNG). There's no real decision making to be made here, no tactics. (Heck, you haven't even considered what happens when multiple mechs engage the same target, I think.) No, the minor decision and range or what to shoot does not constitute enough worthwhile input.

I'll be brutally honest - the system as written comes across like you don't really WANT to run BattleMech combat and are trying to make a load of shortcuts so you have to do as little as possible. That may not be your intention, but that is what your mechanics as they stand say to me. As they are written, they definitely won't be fun, except for the people that just like rolling dice for the sake of rollng dice. Let me put it this way. Would you resolve ALL of your roleplaying combats in this exact fashion? Because if you wouldn't, then, like, don't try it with mech combat, just run it in the same way. You don't need figures or a mapsheet or terrain for running RPG combat, after all, you can do it on a scribble map on a pirce of paper and a pencil if you have to. (Replace paper with "scribble in Paint" or something if doing it online.) But bare minmium, you, as DM, DO have to know where things are relatively to each other even if you are only describing them to the players and don't show them a map of any kind, because that's your one job. These rules are not doing that - you're trying to make rolling dice the combat dungeon master.



This is not hypothetical on my part: I have tried, very briefly, a combat system like that for wargaming aerospace in support of the ground game. It developed into just throwing dice at each other was was extremely boring; we abandoned it immediately. Like "halfway through the forst game I tried it" it was that boring. I have experimented with other such systems for stuff like parties of fighter pilots (notably both of these are aerospace, which obviate the most critical factor in ground combat - the terrain) and in the end, found them not even remotely a substitute for getting the figures out and doing it "properly."

Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but as a player. personally, I would not want to play with these rules.

Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4272
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #5 on: 31 December 2022, 07:14:26 »
There's of course also this mapless BattleTech combat game:
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Science_Fiction_Combat_Book_Game
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Moonsword

  • Acutus Gladius
  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16611
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #6 on: 31 December 2022, 11:35:58 »
MODERATOR NOTICE

Please post fan rules in the Fan Designs and Rules board.  I've moved this thread to the appropriate area.

Daemion

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5865
  • The Future of BattleTech
    • Never Tales and Other Daydreams
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #7 on: 02 January 2023, 14:34:02 »
I like the notion of the RADAR Map.

Most of your suggestion is okay.  Quick and simple.

I have issues with the winner always getting a back-shot.  There's something to be said for the element of maneuver, choosing your movement mode for the turn.  What happens to Mechs like the Griffin or Archer who find a hill at distance and park to lob?  It would take most mechs at least a couple turns to close range from a typical starting point to get into short range, let alone be able to start getting behind them.  There are lots of rounds of fire in that time.

Some Mechs shouldn't be automatically getting an attack on the rear, especially the really slow ones. (Urbie is the worst offender, but there are plenty of assaults that come in not far behind.)

There's also trying to take advantage of the side arcs, doing damage to specific locations in that fashion.  Kicks down a side arc damage that side's leg only.

I'm not ready to devote brain-time on how I would go about doing it. But, you've piqued my interest enough that I'll think on it. 

But, my first thought is I'd base it more off of initiative. 
It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

koraq

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 62
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #8 on: 14 January 2023, 10:23:40 »
I think it sounds quite usable, if you don't want to break out a map. Try it out a it and it might just the right thing for your group!

Personally I found the system in Destiny worked excellently for me running totally TotM combats.

Lycanphoenix

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
    • Message me on Telegram
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #9 on: 17 February 2023, 15:55:15 »
This would be a great way to get some of my friends involved in BattleTech, as there would be less setup required.

monsterfurby

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Abstract/Mapless Combat
« Reply #10 on: 25 February 2023, 04:00:24 »
...

I see where you're coming from and I understand your point when looking at Battletech as a wargame. I've actually spent a lot of time looking for answers to the same question and just want to give a little bit of another use case. What I love about Battletech is the story generation capabilities due to its high-risk nature. What I find interesting is following a mercenary company and their ups and downs - but to experience those, you need a long campaign. With the time and effort required to set up battles, that becomes barely sustainable. If I could run battles more akin to a pen & paper RPG (I've never played those with miniatures either), that would make that goal far more attainable. Would I be playing Battletech in that case? Not really, more some kind of RPG in the Battletech universe, I suppose, and of course that's not going to do anything for someone looking to play the *system* of BattleTech.

 

Register