Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!

[tassa_kay]

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that would be the laziest turn the fiction could possibly take.

The Rasalhague Dominion is one of the most complex and interesting creations in BattleTech's written history, a true fusion of Clan and Spheroid that has become something greater than the whole. To just break that up during the first actual internal crisis they've experienced is simply not true to their shared story to date and does all of that groundwork a huge disservice. The RasDom has earned its right to exist and not see the writers go the lazy route.

And that's leaving aside the fact that an actual sundering of the RasDom into its constituent parts would be an unmitigated disaster of catastrophic proportions for everyone involved, and for very little payoff. With the Horses and their new aggressive Khan on the left and the Combine ready and waiting to reclaim their worlds on the right, we'd be looking at a new Hinterlands/Chaos March at best... but more likely a whole lotta Combine red on the map.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Also, "break it apart into a bunch of sub-factions" has kind of been done to death in Battletech over the last couple decades.  There was the FWL, the RotS, the Tamar Region...

Also it's going to be boring if the Horses wind up being the most powerful Clan just by default.

[tassa_kay]

Also it's going to be boring if the Horses wind up being the most powerful Clan just by default.

Hell, I'm still getting used to the fact that the Jade Falcons as we knew them are gone. We don't need to lose the RasDom on top of that.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Hell, I'm still getting used to the fact that the Jade Falcons as we knew them are gone. We don't need to lose the RasDom on top of that.

That's another reason.  The IlClan Era is already marked by the destruction of several factions, destroying more runs the risk of completely alienating fans.  Like what most of us (incorrectly, as it turned out) happened when Mechwarrior Clix was first introduced.

[Motpart]

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that would be the laziest turn the fiction could possibly take.

The Rasalhague Dominion is one of the most complex and interesting creations in BattleTech's written history, a true fusion of Clan and Spheroid that has become something greater than the whole. To just break that up during the first actual internal crisis they've experienced is simply not true to their shared story to date and does all of that groundwork a huge disservice. The RasDom has earned its right to exist and not see the writers go the lazy route.

And that's leaving aside the fact that an actual sundering of the RasDom into its constituent parts would be an unmitigated disaster of catastrophic proportions for everyone involved, and for very little payoff.

I'm speaking in generalities, but honestly, I feel as though a polite dust-up and hair-trimming of the Dominion touman to fit the ilClan plotline, ready to sit there and prepare for the 4th Bear-Combine War for the next real life decade, while stuck being forced to play Happy Families, isn't very engaging.

As for the Dominion being one of the most complex or interesting creations of Battletech, or it living up to it's 'true fusion' advertisement, or it's earning an irrevocable right to exist, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't really get anything from it as a Rasalhague fan as much as I might if I were a Ghost Bear fan myself, but I don't want to push anyone's buttons at all.

The ensuing geopolitics aside; that can be written a number of flexible ways, favourable to many parties, depending on the bigger IlClan story in mind, there are greater factors at play with neighbours, and no-one has a truly free hand they can play.

I'd rather we roll with the punches and create interesting and new conflicts, instead of spending the next decade retrospectively tinkering to justify a cuddly status quo that frankly only really services Clan Ghost Bear fans, no offense intended.

I feel as though you can only broaden opportunities for good stories by providing Rasalhague fans and Ghost Bears with their own separate consolidated factions and goals again; it's not the first or the last time to see faction splits, and there seems to be a useful opportunity to potentially do that.

Going through a tremendous time of dissent, upheaval, war, and potentially, failure, just to end up with Bears being more entrenched in Rasalhague than ever would be a tiring waste of effort, and as a Rasalhague fan, kind of sad and embarassing from a personal perspective.

[tassa_kay]

I'm speaking in generalities, but honestly, I feel as though a polite dust-up and hair-trimming of the Dominion touman to fit the ilClan plotline, ready to sit there and prepare for the 4th Bear-Combine War for the next real life decade, while stuck being forced to play Happy Families, isn't very engaging.

Given that pretty much every comment you've ever made in the RasDom's thread, as well as the Dominions Divided discussion thread, has almost *always* plugged an anti-Bear/pro-independent Rasalhague stance of some sort (I pay attention), and given that that bias continues on further in your comment that I'm parsing right now, yes, it makes sense that you wouldn't feel engaged. ;D

As for the Dominion being one of the most complex or interesting creations of Battletech, or it living up to it's 'true fusion' advertisement, or it's earning an irrevocable right to exist, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't really get anything from it as a Rasalhague fan as much as I might if I were a Ghost Bear fan myself, but I don't want to push anyone's buttons at all.

I mean, you're literally coming into the RasDom thread and saying that the faction isn't complex or interesting or even has a right to exist. What do you even say to that?

The ensuing geopolitics aside; that can be written a number of flexible ways, favourable to many parties, depending on the bigger IlClan story in mind, there are greater factors at play with neighbours, and no-one has a truly free hand they can play.

At the end of the day, the writers can choose to do whatever they want to get from Point A to Point B, as evidenced by Dominions Divided itself, so it's really anyone's guess at this point.

I'd rather we roll with the punches and create interesting and new conflicts, instead of spending the next decade retrospectively tinkering to justify a cuddly status quo that frankly only really services Clan Ghost Bear fans, no offense intended.

The RasDom working out their problems, as opposed to yet another random civil war, is literally the definition of rolling with the punches.

As for the "cuddly status quo", to say it only services Ghost Bear fans is simply ridiculous. Rasalhague as a people haven't mattered this much in the metaplot of BattleTech, like, ever.

I feel as though you can only broaden opportunities for good stories by providing Rasalhague fans and Ghost Bears with their own separate consolidated factions and goals again; it's not the first or the last time to see faction splits, and there seems to be a useful opportunity to potentially do that.

Going through a tremendous time of dissent, upheaval, war, and potentially, failure, just to end up with Bears being more entrenched in Rasalhague than ever would be a tiring waste of effort, and as a Rasalhague fan, kind of sad and embarassing from a personal perspective.

Now take that same energy and explain to the RasDom fans, in their own thread, how breaking up the faction that has been built up over decades of real time publication and a century of in-universe, to appease the minority of fans longing for a Rasalhague that never mattered as much as Rasalhague does now, isn't sad, embarrassing and a tiring waste of effort.

[Jellico]

* rant *
I really wish people would stop viewing Dominions Divided through a Rasalhague vs Ghost Bear lens. It is repeatedly made very clear that that is not the point of division and the Ghost Bear OZ has more ethnic groups than faux Scandinavians. Just about every group has members on both sides of several issues.
* rant *

[Orwell84]

Sarna tells me that Bearclaw was the capitol when the Bears were in the Homeworlds. IIRC Arcadia was one of the few places they kept before the reaving and after their move so...

I checked every Clan-oriented sourcebook I have, couldn't dig up a definite answer. For what it's worth Bearclaw in 3062 did have a population on par with other Clan capitals, as opposed to known non-capitals like Brim, Paxon or Vinton.

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that would be the laziest turn the fiction could possibly take.

The Rasalhague Dominion is one of the most complex and interesting creations in BattleTech's written history, a true fusion of Clan and Spheroid that has become something greater than the whole. To just break that up during the first actual internal crisis they've experienced is simply not true to their shared story to date and does all of that groundwork a huge disservice. The RasDom has earned its right to exist and not see the writers go the lazy route.

Couldn't agree more with this. If the nation totally collapses instead of recovering and drubbing the Combine, that'll be the biggest letdown for me since MWDA was released with no info on every faction I actually knew and cared about. They don't have to crush the Combine, just win a definite victory and hopefully raise the bear-and-triangle banner over Luthien :D

* rant *
I really wish people would stop viewing Dominions Divided through a Rasalhague vs Ghost Bear lens. It is repeatedly made very clear that that is not the point of division and the Ghost Bear OZ has more ethnic groups than faux Scandinavians. Just about every group has members on both sides of several issues.
* rant *

I'm actually surprised anyone who read Dominions Divided could still think the nation's biggest split is along pure ethnic lines. IMHO the book made it very clear that the main division now was ideological, even if some regions or groups had a higher percentage of one or the other. Kudos for actually giving some screentime to the Kuritans, ex-Wolves and Vegan minorities as well - too often large factions in BattleTech seem to be more monolithic than the sourcebooks indicate.

[Metallgewitter]

Isn't this the third identity crisis of the Dominion? If we take into account the changes the dominion underwent right at the end of the 2nd Dominion-Combine War where the Khan had to concede some of her power to the Prince-elect because the natives were becoming restless because of the war crimes comitted by the Bears and then there was the Freeminder business which was solved by dumping them onto Vega only to absorb them later they are currently undergoing a 3rd (or perhaps 4th) change. Though one could argue that the first times it happened it was somehow quickly mitigated but it feels as if the real issues were never fully solved. And the kicked of war against the Combine might be seen as a tool for "unification" as wars often have that effect it might also break the enforced unity should it turn south. And it does seem as if it just might do that.

[wantec]

That was always my assumption, but I'll be damned if I can actually find something in print that confirms it!  ;D

The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky lists the following worlds as the capitals for each clan:
Blood Spirit: York
Cloud Cobra: Homer
Coyote: Tamaron
Diamond Shark: Strana Mechty
Fire Mandrill: Shadow
Ghost Bear: Alshain (Arcadia is their only remaining Clan Space holding)
Goliath Scorpion: Roche
Hell's Horses: Niles
Ice Hellion: Hector
Jade Falcon: Iron Hold
Snow Raven: Lum
Star Adder: Sheridan
Steel Viper: New Kent
Wolf: Strana Mechty

I can't find any reference that specifically lists Arcadia as the former capital. It could be in a novel of some kind that explains it.

[Jellico]

Yeah, don't trust Sarna on Bearclaw. The citation has no mention of a capital. Bearclaw is heavily implied to be important, but Arcadia is the holding held. The move to the Inner Sphere obscured a lot of Bear history as Warden Clans post-dates it.

[Generalripphook]

With the rest of the IlClan era focusing on smaller unit battles, it would be really cool to also have a Total War situation going on between the Dominion and DC.

Especially considering that the Davions are rebuilding so wouldn't be able to punish the DC and everyone seems to believe that Clan Wolf will be occupied by the Caps.

[Zeruel]

Part of the problem regarding the Bears old capital is that there are no sources that specifically name all of their holdings before the move to the IS

I think Bearclaw is the most likely, from what I recall they controlled it 100% before the move and the name is bear themed

[tassa_kay]

I think Bearclaw is the most likely, from what I recall they controlled it 100% before the move and the name is bear themed

They didn't control it 100%, unfortunately. The earliest indication timeline-wise for Bearclaw, in 3052, has them sharing it with the Nova Cats.

That said, Bearclaw not being 100% Bear-controlled does not preclude it from being their capital pre-Alshain/Rasalhague. New Kent has always been the Vipers' capital world and they've never held it 100%.

In my head, Bearclaw was the capital (like you, the name kinda sold me on it, plus its vague importance), and Arcadia's importance to the Bears is the fact that that's the Pentagon holding Nicholas assigned to their Clan so they held onto it until they couldn't anymore.

[Motpart]

Given that pretty much every comment you've ever made in the RasDom's thread, as well as the Dominions Divided discussion thread, has almost *always* plugged an anti-Bear/pro-independent Rasalhague stance of some sort (I pay attention), and given that that bias continues on further in your comment that I'm parsing right now, yes, it makes sense that you wouldn't feel engaged. ;D

I don't know what the point of this comment was, other than to be snide. Am I guilty of having an opinion?

I mean, you're literally coming into the RasDom thread and saying that the faction isn't complex or interesting or even has a right to exist. What do you even say to that?

I did not say that. I disagreed in muted terms with a personal opinion of yours; you don't represent the whole thread. That's all.

This is Battletech where there are fewer sacred cows in the writing than ever faction-wise, which is a good thing, and the RasDom doesn't have an inalienable exemption on your say so.

The RasDom working out their problems, as opposed to yet another random civil war, is literally the definition of rolling with the punches.

As for the "cuddly status quo", to say it only services Ghost Bear fans is simply ridiculous. Rasalhague as a people haven't mattered this much in the metaplot of BattleTech, like, ever.

The cuddly status quo, and the desire to keep it cuddly, is about Clan Ghost Bear keeping the prizes from their decades long winning streak; it's entirely for Ghost Bear fans. These conflicts aren't coming up for 'random' reasons, it's a wargame, there are ongoing tensions, conflict happens. That should happen.

Rasalhague presence in the metaplot is entirely reliant on the presence, support and focus on the Ghost Bears currently, as story adjuncts. It's not unthinkable that a metastory can be written wherein an alternative Rasalhague presence can matter outside of Ghost Bear orbit.

Now take that same energy and explain to the RasDom fans, in their own thread, how breaking up the faction that has been built up over decades of real time publication and a century of in-universe, to appease the minority of fans longing for a Rasalhague that never mattered as much as Rasalhague does now, isn't sad, embarrassing and a tiring waste of effort.

I don't appreciate the insinuation that this is 'your' faction thread that I've crashed by sharing my opinion, and not also 'my' faction thread, as a Rasalhague fan, talking about Rasalhague, in current year, when this has always been an open place for Rasalhague fans to discuss, as well as Ghost Bears. The implication that I don't, or shouldn't 'belong' for not talking shop as a Ghost Bear isn't appreciated.

[Metallgewitter]

Maybe Arcadia was at one point the Bears capital until more of the Kerensky Cluster was colonized. After all the colonization and exploration of the Kerensky cluster took a major leap after Operation Klondike.

[Zeruel]

They didn't control it 100%, unfortunately. The earliest indication timeline-wise for Bearclaw, in 3052, has them sharing it with the Nova Cats.

you're right, I don't know why I remember them controlling it 100%...

[tassa_kay]

I don't appreciate the insinuation that this is 'your' faction thread that I've crashed by sharing my opinion, and not also 'my' faction thread, as a Rasalhague fan, talking about Rasalhague, in current year, when this has always been an open place for Rasalhague fans to discuss, as well as Ghost Bears. The implication that I don't, or shouldn't 'belong' for not talking shop as a Ghost Bear isn't appreciated.

I'm not going to parse the rest of your comment, because it's honestly not worth it to me, but I will correct you when you're wrong, and you're wrong here. I was not insinuating anything of the sort.

Done here.

Maybe Arcadia was at one point the Bears capital until more of the Kerensky Cluster was colonized. After all the colonization and exploration of the Kerensky cluster took a major leap after Operation Klondike.

That's actually a really good idea! In fact, I'm pretty sure the Bears wouldn't even be the first Clan to do this; the Adders moved their capital to Sheridan, for example, and the Spirits moved theirs to York.

[Generalripphook]

I'm not going to parse the rest of your comment, because it's honestly not worth it to me, but I will correct you when you're wrong, and you're wrong here. I was not insinuating anything of the sort.

Done here.

Maybe you should take a step back and re-read your comments because it definitely seemed like you were insinuating that.

A Ras fan can hope for the break up of the RasDom as much as a St. Ives fan can hope for their independence.

[wantec]

That's actually a really good idea! In fact, I'm pretty sure the Bears wouldn't even be the first Clan to do this; the Adders moved their capital to Sheridan, for example, and the Spirits moved theirs to York.

I think this was the case for a lot of Clans. Initially they had an HQ on Strana Mechty. After Operation Klondike, it's possible some moved if their new holdings had something that made sure a move a good idea. Others did similar as they got new colonies or if they gained total control of a world

[tassa_kay]

Maybe you should take a step back and re-read your comments because it definitely seemed like you were insinuating that.

I'll take that under advisement, thanks.  ::)

[Foxx Ital]

you're right, I don't know why I remember them controlling it 100%...

Because we dont count the nova cats ;)

[tassa_kay]

Because we dont count the nova cats ;)

You know, I can't recall off the top of my head... why do the Bears hate the Cats so much in the later years?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

IIRC it was for the destruction of one of the Bears' warships during the Jihad.

[Orwell84]

You know, I can't recall off the top of my head... why do the Bears hate the Cats so much in the later years?

IIRC it was for the destruction of one of the Bears' warships during the Jihad.

The Second Combine-Dominion War and the lead-up to it as well. I don't recall specifics but I believe the Cats and Bears engaged in all-out warfare - atrocities included - rather than honorable combat. From memory the Cats were the first to behave dishonorably but the Bears gave as good as they got (much to the Rasalhagians' dismay).

[Metallgewitter]

It might be even before that. Right before the Jihad the Nova Cats fleet traveled to Alshain and issued a batchall for one of the Leviathan's. They assumed the batchall would be granted as the Exiled Wolves issued one for factories earlier and their's was granted. The Bears though refused and what followed was an orbital slugging match and I think the Ghost Bear commander had to ask for surkai because it was his fault this situation escalated. Then during the Jihad the Bears had to give a fleet of Aesirs to the Cats which stripped one of their Leviathans of their close range support resulting in it's destruction (big ooof). and of course right before the 2nd Dominion-combine war the nova Cats began escalating their raids (which were from what I understand until that point usual Clan trials) and at one point killed the survivors of a Rasalhague unit which then led to the Ghost Bear strike on Kahn West (with the "help" of the Kokuryu Kai). And from there it was "Boy that escalated quickly"

[Jellico]

You know, I can't recall off the top of my head... why do the Bears hate the Cats so much in the later years?

Yeah nah. You are over thinking it.
Real world. Bear players didn't have any particular feelings about the Nova Cats. Maybe traitors? That is about it. Then Trial of Retribution happened and there was a collective WTF?

Over the following decades the gaps have been filled in. The Bears had three WarShips taken out by TF Serpent as collateral damage of the Nova Cat's actions. That is a good place to start with the hard feelings. As the Cats were Abjured there was no reason to show mercy in the 1st DC war. For all of Path of Glory, the Cats are again on the side of the IS power attacking a Clan.

From here on in geography takes control. Who else can the Nova Cats take their frustrations out on? It is a narrative trap. From the Bear point of view you can't hit the Nova Cats because that will bring in the DC. The Cats can't get respect because they are the vassal of the DC, so they are going to keep coming at the Bears. Any time Bears get the chance (2nd DC War) they are going to try and make the problem go away.

I don't like the situation; it is frustrating because there is no way out of it short of opening a third front, and that isn't happening at Irece Prefecture. That or genocide, which is where we ended up. The Cats were probably better off leaving wholesale for the Republic. The Clan Protectorate offers them many more narrative options.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Almost surprised the Nova Cats didn’t leave wholesale for the Republic now that I think about it. Would made a lot of sense for them.

The Bears and the Nova Cats should never have been enemies of the at nature. I agree with Jellico there on the whole narrative standpoint.

I also believe that some of the IS clans should have been more forgiving of the Cats after the Wars of Reaving but that’s just my opinion.

[tassa_kay]

I feel like the Nova Cats, probably more than anyone, suffered the most at the numerous changes of ownership, line developers and metaplot direction. I think that frustrates me more than anything. Well, that and the fact that the Yori/Toranaga-vs-Katana/Emi/Cats conflict was, IMO, poorly executed (relegated to, what, a page in a sourcebook?) and the biggest waste of what could've been a truly interesting internal conflict in the Combine.

[AutumnEffect]

Heyo fellow Rasey's!

I hope it's ok to ask this here, but are there any uniquely 'Rasalhague Dominion' vehicles?

I'm looking to get some stuff to compliment my growing Tundra Galaxy Cluster and was wondering if there was anything besides the Tyr that was home-grown.