Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!

[Church14]

I thought the direction for the Bears was this: Alaric slaps them in the face, they have an identity crisis, loose units in infighting, now wanting to attack the Combine. But apparently the joiners have won and the Dominion is joining the new Star League ? (As like it or not, he does need the Bears)

Dominion, for the immediate future, is not joining the Alaric’s team of super friends. Alaric wants the Ghost Bears, not the Rasalhague Dominion. There’s no way for RasDom to approach Alaric as a clan that doesn’t involve another civil war. It doesn’t matter if RasDom goes and defeats DCMS on Luthien and sacks the Dragon.

The way the RasDom operates, it would be another vote. Even if it goes hard towards Alaric, like 70/30 for, it doesn’t change the fact that Alaric’s issue was that there was a vote. A “clan” wouldn’t have a vote where civilians have a say in his eyes. To him, the warriors in charge should say that they will join Alaric and that’s the end of it.

So RasDom seems likely now to be at best, not an enemy of Alaric.

[tassa_kay]

Dominion, for the immediate future, is not joining the Alaric’s team of super friends. Alaric wants the Ghost Bears, not the Rasalhague Dominion. There’s no way for RasDom to approach Alaric as a clan that doesn’t involve another civil war. It doesn’t matter if RasDom goes and defeats DCMS on Luthien and sacks the Dragon.

The way the RasDom operates, it would be another vote. Even if it goes hard towards Alaric, like 70/30 for, it doesn’t change the fact that Alaric’s issue was that there was a vote. A “clan” wouldn’t have a vote where civilians have a say in his eyes. To him, the warriors in charge should say that they will join Alaric and that’s the end of it.

Where are you getting that this is Alaric's position and mindset? Because Dominions Divided certainly didn't say any of this. Alaric's issue with the RasDom plebiscite wasn't that they had one to begin with, it's that they didn't vote strongly enough in his favor. If there's something canonical out there that I've missed, though, by all means please let me know (not being sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely curious if I've missed something).

[Church14]

Where are you getting that this is Alaric's position and mindset? Because Dominions Divided certainly didn't say any of this. Alaric's issue with the RasDom plebiscite wasn't that they had one to begin with, it's that they didn't vote strongly enough in his favor. If there's something canonical out there that I've missed, though, by all means please let me know (not being sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely curious if I've missed something).

Alright. Dug up what I thought I remembered.

“IlKhan Ward rejected our vote out of hand.”
      “That is what it says. But he cannot just tell us to hold the vote again until it is unanimous.”
      “He said we are not dedicated enough to the new Star League.” Rand paused for a moment, taking a breath to contain her rage. “For the Ghost Bears, it was all or nothing, and he does not understand the rede of our Clan. If we cannot agree unanimously, there will be war with the Star League.”

From A Question of Survival


Not quite what I remembered. Calling me out for sources is good. “Must be unanimous” doesn’t strike me as Alaric respecting that there was a vote. It’s such a bafflingly insane expectation that the only thing I could take from it was that he really wanted a clan. Not an inner sphere power with middling support for him.

So I was conflating some of my conclusions with the original source material.

EDIT: the person being quoted was immediately corrected in the book that not joining doesn’t inherently mean war. They were being dramatic.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

TPTB = The Powers That Be, shorthand for the people who actually control BattleTech. If I’m not mistaken their responsibilities include deciding what new products to create and how various story arcs will unfold, to give just two examples.

That does sound like where the Dominion is headed. Personally, I hope they do emerge triumphant over the Combine. Not by annexing huge swathes of territory and hostile new subjects, but rather by delivering a coup de grace to the already-weakened DCMS so all will know the Bear and Sea Serpent are stronger than the Dragon
Or for a smaller victory Luthien doesn’t need to be held, just sacked and the bear flag raised above the Imperial Palace.

Hey, a Rasalhague fan can dream 

Now I need a picture of a Kodiak in front of the Imperial Palace carving his claws into the walls as Elementals raise a flag while the palace burns around them…. And in another chapter a second picture of the same place with Kuritan mechs and police patrolling, someone in the background cleaning a wall that has graffiti of something like ‘Nova Cats send their regards’ (ironically of course)

[tassa_kay]

Alright. Dug up what I thought I remembered.
From A Question of Survival


Not quite what I remembered. Calling me out for sources is good. “Must be unanimous” doesn’t strike me as Alaric respecting that there was a vote. It’s such a bafflingly insane expectation that the only thing I could take from it was that he really wanted a clan. Not an inner sphere power with middling support for him.

So I was conflating some of my conclusions with the original source material.

EDIT: the person being quoted was immediately corrected in the book that not joining doesn’t inherently mean war. They were being dramatic.

No, this is good stuff, Church, because I actually haven't read A Question of Survival yet, and I knew there was stuff in there regarding this subject.

FWIW (and I say this because Alaric could've been lying), there was this bit in DD on page 29: "Brimming with a confidence verging on hubris, ilKhan Ward accepted the Dominion Khans' need to work with their 'lower castes'. The ilClan would not try to impose Clan Wolf's interpretation of the Way of the Clans onto the Dominion, citing the wisdom of any Clan that could produce a man as gifted as Ramiel Bekker."

That said, I can't help but wonder if Alaric's rejection of the plebiscite results might've been a calculated move on his part specifically to sow unrest between the Bears and the Rasalhagians, to basically force the Bears' hand.

[Church14]

At best, I took it as Alaric wanted the Bears and not RasDom. He assumed the clan side of RasDom would be drawn strongly to the ilClan and assert its superiority over the inner sphere side. I’m guessing the RasDom civil war, 30% touman fatalities (per DD, damn), and a RasDom still not excited to join him was not a planned outcome.

The “he wanted to weaken his enemies with a sentence” feels like entirely too much credit.

[Metallgewitter]

I dug up Dominion Divided and on page 45 it says "The missive delivered by the Sea Fox delegation explained that the Ilkhan was dissastisfied with the result of the vote. It was too close. "If the Dominion wishes to join the Star League, then the Dominion must make manifest it's clear and unambiguous desire to do so". That statement, couched in the vagaries of diplomatic folderol that sourrounded i, was the core of the Ilkhan's objection. He did not invite an infinitestimal fraction of a majority to join the Star League. He had invited the nation. The nation, he declared, would join, but he would not invite dissent into his Star League at his founding" (sporry for the long quote). So this reads as if Alaric was not amused with the slim margin and the Bear Khans took it as "we need a new vote with a bigger majority". Sounds like Alaric is obsessed with unity. Where have I heard that before?

[tassa_kay]

Sounds like Alaric is obsessed with unity.

I mean, this is a pretty obvious mindset for any Clanner (or anyone else for that matter) who's taken Terra and is now looking to recreate the Star League.

[Metallgewitter]

Yeah but this unity almost seems like as if the other Clans have to submit themselves to the Wolves completly. That can't end well.

[tassa_kay]

Of course it can't. That's the point. It never ends well. It didn't for Amaris, it didn't for Nicholas Kerensky, it didn't for Brett Andrews, and it won't for Alaric.

[Jellico]

I thought the direction for the Bears was this: Alaric slaps them in the face, they have an identity crisis, loose units in infighting, now wanting to attack the Combine. But apparently the joiners have won and the Dominion is joining the new Star League ? (As like it or not, he does need the Bears)

Also, what does TPTB mean ?

I swear no one does subtlety or reads between lines any more. A large number of readers seem to think the Joiners have won for now and ever more.
As noted from before DD, we are in book one. There is a long way to go yet.

[tassa_kay]

I swear no one does subtlety or reads between lines any more.

But it seems people are still pointlessly condescending to each other when making their points on here.

Never change, CBT forums. 

[Minemech]

But it seems people are still pointlessly condescending to each other when making their points on here.

Never change, CBT forums. 

Things have improved immensely from decades ago. There were some brutal threads and arguments that are best forgotten, save to prevent them from ever happening again.

[Geg]

I dug up Dominion Divided and on page 45 it says "The missive delivered by the Sea Fox delegation explained that the Ilkhan was dissastisfied with the result of the vote. It was too close. "If the Dominion wishes to join the Star League, then the Dominion must make manifest it's clear and unambiguous desire to do so". That statement, couched in the vagaries of diplomatic folderol that sourrounded i, was the core of the Ilkhan's objection. He did not invite an infinitestimal fraction of a majority to join the Star League. He had invited the nation. The nation, he declared, would join, but he would not invite dissent into his Star League at his founding" (sporry for the long quote). So this reads as if Alaric was not amused with the slim margin and the Bear Khans took it as "we need a new vote with a bigger majority". Sounds like Alaric is obsessed with unity. Where have I heard that before?

It's hard to parse what "clear and unambiguous desire" and "not invite dissent" mean. My take coming from Question of Survival was it wasn't necessarily the closeness of the vote, but that it was more the fact that there was a vote of at all.   Alaric will only accept the Bear when those warriors that did wish not to join, be defeated on combat and honor bound to respect the will of the victors.  With the lower castes following the Warriors as is the clan way.  Alaric needs the decision to join, to be made in traditional Clan way.   None of this was stated directly, but was implied by Alaric's questioning of the Bear Khan about how they were subordinated to an IS power, and of course is tentative depending on what happens next.   

Reading the Tea Leaves Miraborgs murder of Magnusson on the floor of parliament, to me was the sign that the might makes right way of the Clans was returning, and might encourage additional joiners to fully resolve the issues to Alarics expectations, by the use of force.   A disastrous war against the combine is sure to only make matters worse.

[Jellico]

But it seems people are still pointlessly condescending to each other when making their points on here.

Never change, CBT forums. 

:D

I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.

Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.

[tassa_kay]

It's hard to parse what "clear and unambiguous desire" and "not invite dissent" mean.

I don't think those are hard to parse at all: Alaric wants the RasDom to submit to the ilClan completely, and not join his Star League without being "all in".

My take coming from Question of Survival was it wasn't necessarily the closeness of the vote, but that it was more the fact that there was a vote of at all.

If this is the case, and I'm not saying it isn't, then why wouldn't he have simply told the Bear Khans that in the first place when they met on Terra?

Miraborgs murder of Magnusson on the floor of parliament

That wasn't a murder and shouldn't be characterized as such.

[tassa_kay]

I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realise how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.

You know what? That's absolutely fair, Jellico. I'm even guilty of it myself: my initial reaction to the RasDom section of DD was pretty much revulsion (mostly because none of this stuff was foreshadowed in any appreciable way), but after a few re-reads, it's starting to click into place. The worldbuilding for the RasDom in this book really was terrific.

Honestly I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognising how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake.

It absolutely was not a mistake. It's those sorts of complexities that make the RasDom feel more realistic and like an actual hybrid state instead of some cheesy fanfic faction that lacks flaws to speak of (looking at you, Scorpion Empire, sorry not sorry). And to be perfectly honest, had the RasDom had this sort of fleshing out beforehand, maybe the events of DD wouldn't have been such a shock to so much of the fanbase.

[Jellico]

Thanks. I very much appreciate that.

Ironically a lot of that lore was developed in previous versions of this thread over the last fifteen years. I went in with a mental list of what the Dominion was in 3150, and while if course there were compromises, a lot got through. You can see snippets of that Dominion in TROs and FMs but they were never really the right forum or had carte blache for full on world building. The plot of DD is a different issue, and I argue that goes back to the failure to launch of the Dominion storyline in MW: DA which meant that we were not plugged in to any of the Dark Age storylines so got put on ice for a decade. Check out how careful the RD, RA, and half the SF entries in FM3145 are not to break anything.

Swinging that back to the Draconis Combine, we are in a weird situation now. Both the DC and RD largely sat out the back half of the Dark Age plots so both factions are now on their own with no real attachment to the main plot. It makes it really hard to predict the future. I have some ideas, but there isn't enough data yet.

[Geg]

That wasn't a murder and shouldn't be characterized as such.

Fine...  Trial of Grievance with intent to kill.   Dominions Divided explicitly states it was a politically motivate killing, against a man liked enough that Miragborg comforted him after the killing blow.  I have read a lot of Clan Trials of Grievance over the years, and this is the first one that felt like cold blooded murder.   We've also seen Clan legal trials in the past, and while they have an element of ritual combat, that isn't the justice that Magnusson received.

Edit:  Cleaned up.

[GuyIncognito]

Phelan's "circle of equals" with Conal Ward was pretty dubious, if you want to count it like anything remotely legitimate.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

What's so dubious about shooting someone in the head and retroactively declaring it a trial?

[Minemech]

:D

I have been pretty closely involved with DD and it has been endlessly frustrating when a punter asks why a character does x and there is literally a sub chapter on it. I get it BT is a big universe and it is hard to keep track of things. See just a few posts ago how many don't realize how strong the DC actually is. Earlier we had people suggesting the Dominion's next steps are dependent upon the Khans as if the Ghost Bears are still in charge. Things like Alaric Senpai get memed and you have a whole new set of preconceptions that are going to be disappointed when reality happens.

Honestly, I am starting to to think adding complexity like regional differences or recognizing how few MechWarriors there are was a mistake. Assuming a 50/50 Clan/Rasalhague split and having a black hat white hat war would have been simpler, even if it ignored prior sources. Except that has its own set of problems.

I apologize, I will back out of this discussion for now.

[tassa_kay]

Phelan's "circle of equals" with Conal Ward was pretty dubious, if you want to count it like anything remotely legitimate.

Though not a Trial of Grievance, I'd say Brett Andrews' killing of Angus Labov was pretty bad, too.

Fine...  Trial of Grievance with intent to kill.   Dominions Divided explicitly states it was a politically motivate killing, with Miragborg comforting the man he killed.   I have read a lot of Clan Trials of Grievance over the years, and this is the first one that felt like cold blooded murder.   We've seen Clan legal trials in the past, and while they have an element of ritual combat, that isn't the justice that Magnusson received.

That's fair, actually.

I hated that Lars got killed off. He was the first legitimate RasDom character we ever saw "on-screen", he looked badass and awesome, and he never even really got to do anything until DD. But it was also a truly shocking moment that actually had value in the narrative, so I suppose that's something.

[Jellico]

I apologize, I will back out of this discussion for now.

There is nothing to apologise about. You are interested. That is the main thing. Ask the questions, have the discussion. That is the fun part and why I am here at least. Some formats don't suit long form answers. That is frustrating. Many the YouTuber I have fumed at, but I am not going to start a war in the comments a) not a great format, b) I wouldn't do that to someone in their own "house".

[Metallgewitter]

Though not a Trial of Grievance, I'd say Brett Andrews' killing of Angus Labov was pretty bad, too.

Wanted to say that one was pretty questionable
"I declare a Reaving against Angus Labov!"
"I accept"
*Throws knife in throat* "there done"

And of course we have the trial of refusal against Stanislov N'Buta and that time was the breaking point though only on a technicality. Andrews used a pistol he shouldn't have had in the meeting.

If you combine cut throat policies with this "might makes right" mentality I expect more "heated" debates in future. And each parliamentary session ends with at least one dead MP

[Geg]

Though not a Trial of Grievance, I'd say Brett Andrews' killing of Angus Labov was pretty bad, too.

That's fair, actually.

I hated that Lars got killed off. He was the first legitimate RasDom character we ever saw "on-screen", he looked badass and awesome, and he never even really got to do anything until DD. But it was also a truly shocking moment that actually had value in the narrative, so I suppose that's something.

Lars was great and he got done dirty.   I really hope there is a story in the works that expands on that whole plot thread.

[Geg]

If this is the case, and I'm not saying it isn't, then why wouldn't he have simply told the Bear Khans that in the first place when they met on Terra?

In reading that is how the exchange went down.  It wasn't stated in black and white.  But then again most of the ilClan fiction has been a lot less explicate about referencing events that happen on the future product roadmap that we are used too.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Now I need a picture of a Kodiak in front of the Imperial Palace carving his claws into the walls as Elementals raise a flag while the palace burns around them…. And in another chapter a second picture of the same place with Kuritan mechs and police patrolling, someone in the background cleaning a wall that has graffiti of something like ‘Nova Cats send their regards’ (ironically of course)

That will look good

Hmmm, after the Bears make an example of the Combine on Lithuen, get more annoyed with Alaric, alliance with the Horses, aim at Terra, Alaric gets bulk of Raven fleet to defend him ?

[Church14]

If this is the case, and I'm not saying it isn't, then why wouldn't he have simply told the Bear Khans that in the first place when they met on Terra?

I’d have to quote several pages of AQoS for context, but the gist of the scene is:
Bear Khan: “We can aid the ilClan in an emergency, but joining you is too much without a vote of our people.”
Alaric: “aren’t you the khans? Just command it.”
Bear Khan: explains patiently that they think uniting with and guiding the sphere is the true vision of kerensky
Alaric “But why aren’t you crusaders? Screw it, try your vote. WarBear seemed to have his crap together, maybe your weird way works.”


Much later (severely paraphrased):
Bears return lukewarm desire to join
Alaric: “your way sucks. Come to me United or not at all.” Alaric seems to expect this means as a clan subservient to wolves.

[tassa_kay]

I’d have to quote several pages of AQoS for context, but the gist of the scene is:
Bear Khan: “We can aid the ilClan in an emergency, but joining you is too much without a vote of our people.”
Alaric: “aren’t you the khans? Just command it.”
Bear Khan: explains patiently that they think uniting with and guiding the sphere is the true vision of kerensky
Alaric “But why aren’t you crusaders? Screw it, try your vote. WarBear seemed to have his crap together, maybe your weird way works.”


Much later (severely paraphrased):
Bears return lukewarm desire to join
Alaric: “your way sucks. Come to me United or not at all.” Alaric seems to expect this means as a clan subservient to wolves.

Well, this at least confirms (to me, anyway) that Alaric's rejection wasn't a sinister plot to destabilize the RasDom, and he seemed to be earnest in what he said to the Khans about trying it their way. That's something, at least.