Author Topic: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!  (Read 48332 times)

Jellico

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #600 on: 09 September 2023, 15:05:37 »
Welcome to BattleTech.


Was that a 90 word sentence?  :shocked:

Rasalhagians aren't willing to bear on the Ghost Bear elites' behalf.

The counterpoint being somebody voted these people into power. Are the elite Clan? Yes. But that is like asking whether the elite of the Fed Suns have a choice of more than three surnames? The Rasalhague elite remain Miraborgs and Magnussons just like in 3049 and the Sorensons are all gone.

Dominions Divided sidesteps the issue of the Clan elite by putting the decision to join a Star League to the people and half want to. Everything else is representative democracy. Leaders doing what they think is best for the nation. Through a Clan lense? Yes, Clans dominate the elite. But everything is calculated upon what they can convince the wider population to follow. Remember the Rasalhague Dominion is founded on the bulk of the civilian population refusing to support the choices of Clan Ghost Bear in the Second DC/Dominion War. The executive is civilian.

That is the beauty(?) of the Joiner/Denier division. It cuts across all society. Does it make sense? I have totally different reasons than Motpart for thinking them unnecessary but they take the Rasalhague independence question out of the equation.

If and when the invasion of the Draconis Combine fails, Miraborg and the Joiners will be blamed. Not the Ghost Bears. Half of them will be against the war because half of them are Deniers. How does that make it a war of the Ghost Bear elite?

At the end of the day there were no good choices at the end of Dominions Divided. You can't go south because that would be a curb stomp and the Wolves have a destiny. Can't go west because that would be a curb stomp and the Horses have a destiny and the Hinterland is the hot new thing. Can't go east because that is a woodchipper with no good outcome. Can't sit still because that has been the situation since 2002 and you can't keep keeping one of the more popular factions out of the storyline.

The Dominion had to be dealt in somehow. The most obvious onramp being the Star League. The large Rasalhague population was always going to define what happened. But a straight no was always impossible because it would mean sitting out events until the Wolf storyline had run its course. Yay more sitzkrieg.

tassa_kay

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #601 on: 09 September 2023, 21:12:30 »
It's the Combine: This Time It's Bears.

It absolutely is not, no matter how many times you repeat this slanted and erroneous mantra.
« Last Edit: 09 September 2023, 21:14:44 by tassa_kay »
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #602 on: 09 September 2023, 21:55:00 »
...
The conflict in DD was ideological, not demographic, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that any subsection of the Rasalhague Dominion has any interest in separating.
(Besides Motstånd terrorists that seem to be seen as irrelevant)


Yeah, they have been together for century now and the setup has been working much more often than it didn't

Trying to separate Rasalhaguans and Ghost Bears now would be like trying to separate flour and eggs after you already baked the cake


Motpart

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #603 on: 09 September 2023, 22:48:10 »
It absolutely is not, no matter how many times you repeat this slanted and erroneous mantra.

I think this is the legit first time I've brought up the comparison, and the thought came from Jellico's own previous discussions on this subject in the past, in the same context of discussing Rasalhague pros and cons as part of a wider empire.

If you felt the need to ignore the entire context of that post, take a small tongue-in-cheek tagline, and venomously characterise it as 'slanted and erroneous mantra', I feel like the argument stands fine on it's own.

truetanker

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #604 on: 09 September 2023, 23:34:47 »
My single Arcas is painted in FRR colours... from a successful ToP Horse raid.

The MechWarrior successfully fought off two Points of Horse Elementals supported by a Horse Ryoken J.

Needless to say, it was a prize, she fought and earned her codex that day, during 2998.

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AutumnEffect

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #605 on: 10 September 2023, 00:32:21 »
Yet many are always deadset against the Bears, many are enthusiastic collaborators, etc. etc.

Are there many that are deadset against the remnants of Clan Ghost Bear though?
I mean this as a legitimate question, not sarcasm. My exposure to the lore has been limited, but I haven't seen anything to suggest there are.

Honestly, coming fresh into the universe like I have, I find it weird that there's even still considered a distinction between 'Native Rasalhague-ians' and 'Clan Ghost Bear'.

The impression I get from Dominions Divided of the Rasalhague Dominion is that the current nation is so far removed from it's constituent parts that both of those terms don't really mean anything.

The Clan Ghost Bear element of the Rasalhague Dominion seems to be so far divorced from what Clans were that, in purely my humble opinion, it shouldn't really be considered a Clan any more.
It's just the nation's military apparatus.

Likewise, the current Rasalhague population seems to be so intermixed with that of the former Clan Ghost Bear that the concept of 'a Native Rasalhague' population being separate from a 'Clan Ghost Bear' population just... doesn't seem to be a 'thing'.

Trying to separate Rasalhaguans and Ghost Bears now would be like trying to separate flour and eggs after you already baked the cake

I feel like this is a good analogy.
« Last Edit: 10 September 2023, 00:40:12 by AutumnEffect »

Minemech

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #606 on: 10 September 2023, 07:49:37 »
 The Clan problem is that their system was inherently inferior to anything they ran up against, including that of the Oberon Confederation. Clan Wolverine may have been the ultimate victor of the Clan Invasion.

nova_dew

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #607 on: 10 September 2023, 08:00:28 »

Are there many that are deadset against the remnants of Clan Ghost Bear though?
I mean this as a legitimate question, not sarcasm. My exposure to the lore has been limited, but I haven't seen anything to suggest there are.

Honestly, coming fresh into the universe like I have, I find it weird that there's even still considered a distinction between 'Native Rasalhague-ians' and 'Clan Ghost Bear'.

The impression I get from Dominions Divided of the Rasalhague Dominion is that the current nation is so far removed from it's constituent parts that both of those terms don't really mean anything.

The Clan Ghost Bear element of the Rasalhague Dominion seems to be so far divorced from what Clans were that, in purely my humble opinion, it shouldn't really be considered a Clan any more.
It's just the nation's military apparatus.

Likewise, the current Rasalhague population seems to be so intermixed with that of the former Clan Ghost Bear that the concept of 'a Native Rasalhague' population being separate from a 'Clan Ghost Bear' population just... doesn't seem to be a 'thing'.

I feel like this is a good analogy.

Are there many against the Bears? I would say no, there are some, as there are some against any other group in any society, Motstånd is pretty much persona non grata at the moment after some of their actions.

DD and The Powers That Be (TPTB) are trying to remove that distinction, they are both Rasalhagueians and Ghost Bears, DD goes so far as to say Ghost Bear descendants and active Ghost Bear warriors are fine with being called that, and most Rasalhagueians and Ghost Bear descendants and warriors are fine with also being called Ghost Bears too, there is now no difference, baring in-universe prejudices (True born/Free born mostly) and the chances of internal conflict is a good story beat, that every faction should have, and it's a good point for people to self reflect over imho.

IIRC even official sources, in and out of universe, put the RD as a Representative Democracy with Clan Trappings.

The people are intermixed on all levels, the only separation is some high security military installations, but the personnel assigned there are most likely mixed anyway.

A thing that most "Rasalhague for Rasalhague" people miss out it is that the FRR chose to elect Ragnar Magnusson as their First Prince, while he was a Clanner in the Ghost Bear Dominion, the FRR didn't give a hoot about who someone was with as long as they were one of us and by the time of the Dominion the Bears were one of us. They also don't mention that Christian Månsdottir was born and raised a Lyran and was in the LCAF.

(IIRC there doesn't seem to be any characters of mixed heritage though, but i haven't read much Shrapnel so there could be some in the stories in there or I forgot or missed something in DD, it would be a good person of interest to show that the divide wasn't cultural but "Stand together or Stand alone" as a state entity, both being aspects of both cultures, which seems to be the crux of the RD section of DD. Also a good way to show the evolving culture, even if it's a in-universe story, "Free born child of Elemental decent, protects friends from bullies and then go on adventures together" kinda thing, use that gentle giant trope TPTB, it's been a while since we've been called "Care Bears"  :cheesy: )
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #608 on: 10 September 2023, 09:22:36 »
The Clan problem is that their system was inherently inferior to anything they ran up against, including that of the Oberon Confederation. Clan Wolverine may have been the ultimate victor of the Clan Invasion.

One glance at lore tells us that this is definitely not the case

We know that any time a Clan would get off it's honorable posterior and started putting in the work they were able to provide levels of food security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, safety and sometimes even personal freedoms (yes!) that places like Combine or CapCon can't even begin to comprehend

I sure as hell would not want to be a female in Combine (unless my name would be Yori) among many other things

And as for Periphery nations just the simple act of putting an end to pirate threat was often enough to win people over

Only thing Clans had to offer that was capable of making Combine look acceptable were Smoke Jaguars, swap them with Wolves or Bears (hell, swap them with freaking Falcons) and Combine locals would start asking themselves "why aren't we switching sides exactly?"

Even Mongol Falcons who were comically brutal invaders still treated people in their territory with what amounts to kiddy gloves compared to Liaos and Kuritans


This is the problem with all these Sphere vs Clan discussions, you have to specify which Clan and which part of Sphere because Capelans and Lyrans are two extremely different things

(To say nothing of chasm of difference between something like Canopus and Tortuga)

Same goes for Clans, especially in current date


Minemech

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #609 on: 10 September 2023, 09:53:32 »
 You are going to hate the lore on why Clan Wolverine was annihilated...

truetanker

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #610 on: 10 September 2023, 10:07:38 »
And Amaris...

The whole "Cameron" thing and all...

Straight out hacked that family up, but good...   :evil:

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Metallgewitter

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #611 on: 10 September 2023, 10:18:09 »
I sure as hell would not want to be a female in Combine (unless my name would be Yori) among many other things

Why? The women in the Combine can also be warriors, business owners or even rulers (I think the Combine had more female rulers then the oh so liberal Federated Suns)

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #612 on: 10 September 2023, 10:20:09 »
You are going to hate the lore on why Clan Wolverine was annihilated...

Unless they added something new last week I doubt it

Also, no matter what happened to Wolverines it still doesn't change the fact that 2/5 of Successor States fail to cut it





Church14

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #613 on: 10 September 2023, 10:27:21 »
We know that any time a Clan would get off it's honorable posterior and started putting in the work they were able to provide levels of food security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, safety and sometimes even personal freedoms (yes!) that places like Combine or CapCon can't even begin to comprehend

I would love a specific clan and time for this. Because the best treatment of civilians I can recall from a. Clan is the Hell’s Horses’ approach of suzerainty. CGB/GBD/RasDom wasn’t even much better than a junta until dark ages.

Even Mongol Falcons who were comically brutal invaders still treated people in their territory with what amounts to kiddy gloves compared to Liaos and Kuritans

Malvina repeatedly and consistently slaughtered civilians. Her leadership was so brutal that the moment falcons couldn’t enforce their rule with military might, the entire nation collapsed basically in days. Planets liberated from falcons by literally anyone else saw civilians flock to them. Even the horses.

She blew up a city. Not because it was a threat, but because “****** you, that’s why.” Used nukes.

There’s legit complaints about the DC and CC cultures, but Dark Age Falcons were Saturday morning cartoon levels of needlessly stupid, cruel, and evil. Being literally anyone who wasn’t a full throated Malvina crony would result in suffering and misery

truetanker

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #614 on: 10 September 2023, 10:44:16 »
The Combine still allows ownership of Child Slaves, especially to pay off societies debts, common practice

Marians still capture and sell slaves, daily...

Slavery is still rampant in the Sphere, Clans force Lower Caste members to do things that is necessary for the clan, don't work? Don't eat, loose food credit, starve to deaths.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans#Goods_and_Services

TT
« Last Edit: 10 September 2023, 10:46:01 by truetanker »
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #615 on: 10 September 2023, 11:13:27 »
I would love a specific clan and time for this. Because the best treatment of civilians I can recall from a. Clan is the Hell’s Horses’ approach of suzerainty. CGB/GBD/RasDom wasn’t even much better than a junta until dark ages. ...

Horses, Bears, Scorpions, Foxes and Ravens can teach different governance classes to CapCon and Combine and not because those Clans are particularly good at it but because those two are so horrifically abysmal

Even back in the Homeworlds some would be able to outperform them in quite a few areas

Cappies and Kuritans are simply the wrong hill to die on in this kind of debate, they are a dynamite lodged in the foundation of the idea of Inner Sphere moral high ground

My suggestion is to specify an Inner Sphere state (and one which is neither of these two) next time such debate is attempted, nobody will argue with you if you say that Lyrans have superior civil governance system




« Last Edit: 10 September 2023, 11:16:24 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

rebs

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #616 on: 10 September 2023, 12:37:36 »
Why? The women in the Combine can also be warriors, business owners or even rulers (I think the Combine had more female rulers then the oh so liberal Federated Suns)

In the Federated Suns, if you come from a poor planet in the backwaters and can't find work or save money from said work to go to a planet with a better economy, you can join the military, or you are free to starve to death.  Choices like that really aren't liberal.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #617 on: 10 September 2023, 16:58:43 »
or you are free to starve to death

I'm reminded of the immortal words of Janis Joplin.  Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #618 on: 10 September 2023, 17:00:46 »
Why? The women in the Combine can also be warriors, business owners or even rulers (I think the Combine had more female rulers then the oh so liberal Federated Suns)

you would be wrong. DC has only had 2 female cordinators, the first being Siriwan McAllister-Kurita who was always erefered to as a "brevert cordinator" because the nobility wouldn't accept a female cordinator, and Yori.


Meanwhile, discounting Yvvone and Katherine, the FS has had 3 women as first prince, and a 4th occupied the presidancy before the FS became a formal Principality.
these women rulers are
Marie Davion
Ellen Davion
Sarah Davion
Melissa Davion


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tassa_kay

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #619 on: 10 September 2023, 19:34:19 »
Horses, Bears, Scorpions, Foxes and Ravens can teach different governance classes to CapCon and Combine and not because those Clans are particularly good at it but because those two are so horrifically abysmal

Even back in the Homeworlds some would be able to outperform them in quite a few areas

Cappies and Kuritans are simply the wrong hill to die on in this kind of debate, they are a dynamite lodged in the foundation of the idea of Inner Sphere moral high ground

I firmly believe that the Venn diagram of "how they govern their people" between the CapCon, the DracCom and the Clans would have a lot of overlap.
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #620 on: 10 September 2023, 22:30:52 »
I firmly believe that the Venn diagram of "how they govern their people" between the CapCon, the DracCom and the Clans would have a lot of overlap.

Everyone's Venn diagram would have overlap, this is feudal setting but it doesn't change the fact that those Clans still come off smelling like roses in comparison to Dracs and Cappies without even trying

Example: Hell's Horses swallowed their pride in order to stop Falcons from causing famine in their OZ. They didn't need to do that. Lord knows not a single Clan member would have skipped a latte let alone a meal. But they still went ahead and did it to no small personal pain in the derriere. I'd love to see Kuritans swallow their pride for anyone

And I can't believe that Hell's Horses fans aren't advertising this event more, this is some hero origin story material right here

Like I said, without even trying

And there's another point I've been meaning to mention: capacity for change. These Clans have shown that they can better themselves when opportunity presents itself whether by intent or by accident. On the worst day they at least make an effort to not make things worse. Kuritans and Cappies on the other hand have been monolithic unchanging embodiments of tyranny, oppression and terror throughout centuries (coming up on millennia) and across hundreds of planets and countless billions of victims.

Which ties in nicely back to the topic of the tread: Rasalhague Dominion and more specifically their upcoming war with the Combine.

People keep saying that this war is wrong. It's not.

Hasty? Perhaps. Impulsive? Quite likely. Poorly planned? Possibly.

But wrong? Absolutely not because a war against Draconis Combine can't be wrong. (They just repeated Kentares with Nova Cats for Pete's sake)

Long story short, go Rasalhague Dominion!!!



« Last Edit: 10 September 2023, 22:33:34 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #621 on: 10 September 2023, 23:13:08 »
And on the flip side, the Jaguars once suffered a famine after a crop blight and decided that the best way to deal with it was killing a bunch of their lower caste people.
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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #622 on: 10 September 2023, 23:23:34 »
Everyone's Venn diagram would have overlap, this is feudal setting but it doesn't change the fact that those Clans still come off smelling like roses in comparison to Dracs and Cappies without even trying

Not really, no. The Clans have a caste system just like the Cappies and Dracs, and go a step farther with their eugenically-arranged marriages; the Bears are the only Clan we know of that actually stopped that practice. The Clans are also all basically rule by military junta and are quick to clamp down on internal dissent, though to be fair, the Bears and Scorpions have given their civilians oversight of their toumans.

The Ravens flat-out rule over the Outworlders as their overlords (and let's not forget, also wiped out billions of people on Galedon over bad intelligence), the Horses don't deal with their occupied population at all (much to their detriment as we're learning), the Bears just had a complete and total failure of governance, the Scorpions got pleeeeeeenty of civilian blood on their hands during their conquest of Nueva Castile (especially the Umayyads), and as far as we know, anyone who's not a warrior or a merchant in the Foxes only has a life of supporting the massive Fox export industry to look forward to.

I'm not saying that the Combine and the CapCon aren't bastions of human rights violations for centuries themselves, because they certainly are. I'm just saying that the Clans have plenty of overlap with them both, to varying degrees.

Quote
Example: Hell's Horses swallowed their pride in order to stop Falcons from causing famine in their OZ. They didn't need to do that. Lord knows not a single Clan member would have skipped a latte let alone a meal. But they still went ahead and did it to no small personal pain in the derriere. I'd love to see Kuritans swallow their pride for anyone

And I can't believe that Hell's Horses fans aren't advertising this event more, this is some hero origin story material right here

Like I said, without even trying

Because it's not hero origin story material, LOL. Gottfried Amirault let another Clan Khan punk him into joining her genocidal campaign, and that was after Malvina murdered his Blood-kinsman and stole his Galaxy. As a result, another Galaxy ended up as collateral damage during an orbital bombardment, and the Horses got exactly nothing out of their participation in the Golden Ordun. The Horses themselves, in canon, view that entire affair exactly like this, and it was just one of many, many poor decisions Gottfried Amirault was responsible for during his reign.

Quote
And there's another point I've been meaning to mention: capacity for change. These Clans have shown that they can better themselves when opportunity presents itself whether by intent or by accident. On the worst day they at least make an effort to not make things worse. Kuritans and Cappies on the other hand have been monolithic unchanging embodiments of tyranny, oppression and terror throughout centuries (coming up on millennia) and across hundreds of planets and countless billions of victims.

That's fair, but as the saying goes, if it ain't broke...

The Clans that changed did so because circumstances humbled them and they were forced to change. They didn't do it out of some sense of altruism, not even the Bears. The Clans were forced to adapt to life outside of the Kerensky Cluster/Pentagon and everything that resulted from the invasion of the Inner Sphere to the Jihad to the Wars of Reaving to the Dark Age... and not all of them were able to do so.

I can't really speak on the Combine, but the CapCon certainly showed the ability to change for the better with the Xin Sheng reforms, especially with the abolishment of Servitor slavery and giving them an easier path to citizenship.

Quote
(They just repeated Kentares with Nova Cats for Pete's sake)

You say that like the Dominion wouldn't exterminate the Nova Cats themselves if they'd been able to do so (and even participated a bit at the tail end of the Nova Cats' destruction). Let's not act like they're above doing what the Combine did.
« Last Edit: 11 September 2023, 03:15:15 by tassa_kay »
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
Favorite Factions: Capellan Confederation • Clan Blood Spirit • Clan Smoke Jaguar • Clan Hell's Horses • Raven Alliance • Fronc Reaches • Rim Worlds Republic • Magistracy of Canopus
Favorite Characters: Malvina Hazen • Kali Liao • Katherine Steiner-Davion • Anastasia Kerensky • Danai Liao-Centrella • Karianna Schmitt • Lady Death • Tara Campbell • Katana Tormark
Favorite Units: The Golden Ordun • Wolf Hunters • 1st Horde Cluster • 1st Rasalhague Bears • Thuggee Warrior Houses • Hikage • Raptor Keshik • Kara's Scorchers • 1st Star Sentinels

BrianDavion

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #623 on: 11 September 2023, 02:35:05 »
And on the flip side, the Jaguars once suffered a famine after a crop blight and decided that the best way to deal with it was killing a bunch of their lower caste people.

and where loudly condemned for it by other clans.
Not really, no. The Clans have their own extremely dehumanizing traits (caste system, forced eugenics-based marriage/procreation, promoting through fisticuffs instead of ability to do the job, divorcing their warrior caste of normal human social interaction), none of which either the CapCon or DracCom engage in. They're all in the gutter together, sorry.



except the Capellans HAVE a caste system Tassa.
And the Warrior houses aren't, practically speaking, that differant from mini clans.

But let's face it,  comparing the CapCon, Dracs and clans to each other is REALLY an excerise in "What particular brand of horrific fascism do I think is best?"
 
The Suns will shine again

tassa_kay

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #624 on: 11 September 2023, 03:10:52 »
except the Capellans HAVE a caste system Tassa.

Oh, I didn't mean to include that there. Let me edit to clear up the confusion there.

Quote
And the Warrior houses aren't, practically speaking, that differant from mini clans.

That's very true. But the Warrior Houses also aren't running the show, either. (Not that leaders like Kalvin, Max, Romano or Daoshen are necessarily an improvement over that fact, lol.)

Quote
But let's face it,  comparing the CapCon, Dracs and clans to each other is REALLY an excerise in "What particular brand of horrific fascism do I think is best?"

Absolutely, and that was my point. They've got more in common that some would care to admit.
« Last Edit: 11 September 2023, 03:13:59 by tassa_kay »
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
Favorite Factions: Capellan Confederation • Clan Blood Spirit • Clan Smoke Jaguar • Clan Hell's Horses • Raven Alliance • Fronc Reaches • Rim Worlds Republic • Magistracy of Canopus
Favorite Characters: Malvina Hazen • Kali Liao • Katherine Steiner-Davion • Anastasia Kerensky • Danai Liao-Centrella • Karianna Schmitt • Lady Death • Tara Campbell • Katana Tormark
Favorite Units: The Golden Ordun • Wolf Hunters • 1st Horde Cluster • 1st Rasalhague Bears • Thuggee Warrior Houses • Hikage • Raptor Keshik • Kara's Scorchers • 1st Star Sentinels

Metallgewitter

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #625 on: 11 September 2023, 05:48:21 »
you would be wrong. DC has only had 2 female cordinators, the first being Siriwan McAllister-Kurita who was always erefered to as a "brevert cordinator" because the nobility wouldn't accept a female cordinator, and Yori.


Meanwhile, discounting Yvvone and Katherine, the FS has had 3 women as first prince, and a 4th occupied the presidancy before the FS became a formal Principality.
these women rulers are
Marie Davion
Ellen Davion
Sarah Davion
Melissa Davion

Ok fair point but you gloss over Sanethia Kurita the Coordinator who took over from Leonard and presided over a stable period.

Minemech

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #626 on: 11 September 2023, 06:53:55 »
 The worst of modern Draconis Combine governance came under the Hohiro who preceded Takashi Kurita. It was also the closest that realm ever came to Clan bad governance. It is fair to say that they are not much better. As for the Confederation, I am avoiding speaking about their governing model because of a modern politics issue.
« Last Edit: 11 September 2023, 07:21:54 by Minemech »

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #627 on: 11 September 2023, 09:07:15 »
Not really, no. The Clans have a caste system just like the Cappies and Dracs, and go a step farther with their eugenically-arranged marriages; the Bears are the only Clan we know of that actually stopped that practice. The Clans are also all basically rule by military junta and are quick to clamp down on internal dissent, though to be fair, the Bears and Scorpions have given their civilians oversight of their toumans.

The Ravens flat-out rule over the Outworlders as their overlords (and let's not forget, also wiped out billions of people on Galedon over bad intelligence), the Horses don't deal with their occupied population at all (much to their detriment as we're learning), the Bears just had a complete and total failure of governance, the Scorpions got pleeeeeeenty of civilian blood on their hands during their conquest of Nueva Castile (especially the Umayyads), and as far as we know, anyone who's not a warrior or a merchant in the Foxes only has a life of supporting the massive Fox export industry to look forward to.

I'm not saying that the Combine and the CapCon aren't bastions of human rights violations for centuries themselves, because they certainly are. I'm just saying that the Clans have plenty of overlap with them both, to varying degrees.

We know that eugenically arranged marriages have amounted to simply rubber stamping marriage permits pretty much since Nikky K suffered unfortunate X-ray machine accident (hell, maybe even before?)

Galadeon was a colossal screw up but everything else you listed have been steps in the process, and that process is something Kuritans and Cappies simply don't have

And even with all that stuff those Clans still end up looking better in comparison while still working on themselves (more about motives below)

We know for example that enough Outworlders apply to join the Clan each year that Raven Alliance has established administrative procedures for that and that they freely allow Clan members to leave the same way

This tells us that things are smoother than they look on the surface

And every single nation in BattleTech is a military dictatorship, this is a rule not an exception


DISCLAIMER JUST IN CASE BECAUSE INTERNET: I'm talking about stuff in universe, nothing from BattleTech should fly in real life and stuff that does fly is obviously bad and shouldn't be happening


Because it's not hero origin story material, LOL. Gottfried Amirault let another Clan Khan punk him into joining her genocidal campaign, and that was after Malvina murdered his Blood-kinsman and stole his Galaxy. As a result, another Galaxy ended up as collateral damage during an orbital bombardment, and the Horses got exactly nothing out of their participation in the Golden Ordun. The Horses themselves, in canon, view that entire affair exactly like this, and it was just one of many, many poor decisions Gottfried Amirault was responsible for during his reign.

But it doesn't change the fact that they went ahead and prevented that famine

Even with all the mess afterwards that simple fact still remains

And when screw ups happened they didn't go and blame people whom they saved from famine for it, they correctly looked for the source of the problem in-house

No matter how clumsily it's done it's done nonetheless

Ask good people of Csesztreg both Spheroids and Clan if they would prefer to have Kuritans or Cappies come and run the show and the answer you would get would be unanimous: "HELL NO!!! WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM, MAN? ARE YOU FREAKING CRAZY?!?!??!"


That's fair, but as the saying goes, if it ain't broke...

The Clans that changed did so because circumstances humbled them and they were forced to change. They didn't do it out of some sense of altruism, not even the Bears. The Clans were forced to adapt to life outside of the Kerensky Cluster/Pentagon and everything that resulted from the invasion of the Inner Sphere to the Jihad to the Wars of Reaving to the Dark Age... and not all of them were able to do so.

I can't really speak on the Combine, but the CapCon certainly showed the ability to change for the better with the Xin Sheng reforms, especially with the abolishment of Servitor slavery and giving them an easier path to citizenship.

Nations rarely change out of altruism and in majority of the cases it's out of necessity

This isn't BattleTech issue, it's simply art imitating life

But those Clans did change, while Kuritans and Capelans remained fully convinced of their perfection and infallibility (mountains of corpses throughout centuries be damned) those Clans went ahead and changed

Regardless of how they did it and how they explained it to others and themselves they simply did it


You say that like the Dominion wouldn't exterminate the Nova Cats themselves if they'd been able to do so (and even participated a bit at the tail end of the Nova Cats' destruction). Let's not act like they're above doing what the Combine did.

Dominion would have done it

But it was still Draconis Combine who actually did it in the end (funny how it keeps happening to them)

And they did it far more horrifically than anyone could have imagined. Dominion (and even Kuritans who did Kentares) would at least opt for doing it quickly

Instead every single Nova Cat man, woman and child were sterilized and sent to die in slavery

Do we really need to go into specifics of why someone would want a sterilized child slave or why would they create one in the first place?

There is evil and then there is sick evil




« Last Edit: 11 September 2023, 09:16:23 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

Church14

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #628 on: 11 September 2023, 09:13:02 »
DISCLAIMER JUST IN CASE BECAUSE INTERNET: I'm talking about stuff in universe, nothing from BattleTech should fly in real life and stuff that does fly is obviously bad and shouldn't be happening

Agreed. Most nations in Battletech have awful track record. Part of that is everyone being almost unrealistically helps drive revenge plots and excuses for war.

When I’m arguing moral high ground in the setting, it has to be relative.

Church14

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #629 on: 11 September 2023, 09:18:34 »
And every single nation in BattleTech is a military dictatorship, this is a rule not an exception

Double post. Sorry. But no. Monarchies are not inherently a military dictatorship.

Now, let’s reword it to “And every single nation in BattleTech is a military dictatorship ruled by a protected class, this is a rule not an exception”

That’s a lot closer, but not correct.

Republic is an exception. It was a (holy crap so potentially easily corruptible) meritocracy where anyone could theoretically become Exarch. That we didn’t see a non military one was more that there were only three Exarchs before it was destroyed.