Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!

[Jellico]

One of my no regrets experiences was helping to set the paths of how the lower castes adapted to the Inner Sphere back around FM3085.

Some we had no choice. The Bears were pretty much set in stone but it set a lower boundary. We finally got to have fun with it later in DD, treating it like a multi generational experience.

The Falcons set the other boundary, allowing us to go full caste, and design a generation of warcrime machines. Which allowed another team to explore what happens when you "free" them in TR.

The Wolves were tricky because Ulric had established the light hand regime, but that was too close to the Bears. Vlad gave us the opportunity to pivot to a halfway point with benign neglect. So keep the lower castes separate from the natives.

The Horses are meant to be learning from the failures of the Invaders so isolation with limited control (better exploitation) of the natives. We do know the black market is in full swing.

The Cats were unfortunate. They don't have full control. So even as they tried to integrate and present themselves as an alternative they would be rejected. In the Protectorate? Do they even have lower castes?

The Ravens were tricky. Positioned at a halfway point later teams made it clear they isolated themselves.
 
The Sea Foxes are a tricky one. No one knows what they are doing. While the merchants are out and about, who knows what the labourers are allowed to see? While they have fairly good rights we don't know their actual conditions are. Slaving till 50, chilling till 90? We don't know. There has to be a story there.

[nova_dew]

Hey, let's back it a bit here. Absolutely nobody is saying that Clans are democracies. You can put that on a billboard.

Absolutely the cannon is saying the Clans are a democracy, TPTB have said they are a democracy, Yellow Beamers who have been TPTB or very close too, have stated they are democracies, what they are not, is the same as modern democracies (One of the issues of debating things from an out of universe perspective is that people tend to compare things to our universe and even to their own country as the only possible way things can be, "I live in X country, so therefore the democracy that exists here is the only type of democracy in the world or even in extremis the only democracy that exists in the world and "if they are not my democracy they're not a democracy" has been a point of view that has shown its ugly head when talking democracy in the Clans before).

The Clans are more akin to a democratized set of unions (The casts), within a union of semi-independent nation-states (The Clans), with the warrior union (Cast) being the most influential, because they have the weapons in a war game, but they are canonically a democracy, in some areas very left-wing, in others very right-wing again by modern standards and those standards change by country as those standards change by clan and cast.

-----//-----

Also with someone pointing out about test downs and social downwards mobility they missed out the Free Guilds, an alternative to the Dark Caste for those that want to serve the clans but don't always fit in with society.

[Minemech]

It is normal for non-democratic powers to have regular "Democratic" plebiscites without rigging them. It is even normal for such states to require full participation. Like the Clans, they tend to force them to work under norms where they have limited impact and even legitimize the system. They are often very popular amongst the population.

[Church14]

Absolutely the cannon is saying the Clans are a democracy, TPTB have said they are a democracy, Yellow Beamers who have been TPTB or very close too, have stated they are democracies, what they are not, is the same as modern democracies (One of the issues of debating things from an out of universe perspective is that people tend to compare things to our universe and even to their own country as the only possible way things can be, "I live in X country, so therefore the democracy that exists here is the only type of democracy in the world or even in extremis the only democracy that exists in the world and "if they are not my democracy they're not a democracy" has been a point of view that has shown its ugly head when talking democracy in the Clans before).

The Clans are more akin to a democratized set of unions (The casts), within a union of semi-independent nation-states (The Clans), with the warrior union (Cast) being the most influential, because they have the weapons in a war game, but they are canonically a democracy, in some areas very left-wing, in others very right-wing again by modern standards and those standards change by country as those standards change by clan and cast.

-----//-----

Also with someone pointing out about test downs and social downwards mobility they missed out the Free Guilds, an alternative to the Dark Caste for those that want to serve the clans but don't always fit in with society.

I had a long response typed up, but I feel like we can’t properly unpack your comment without firmly crossing the no modern politics rule. Especially unpacking the modern propaganda required to call clans left leaning.

Short version. Save for RasDom, clans are at best stratocracies - ruled by the military. All the democratic trappings last only as long as it takes for the military to be mildly inconvenienced. Realistically, clans are fascist governments. Calling them democracies is at best, intentionally misleading, but really just wrong.

[Minemech]

<deleted>

[tassa_kay]

Ravens now have free flow of people between Clan and Outworlders so that indicates they sorted themselves out as well.

What's your source on this? Because FM3145 and ER3145 both paint a very different picture.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

What's your source on this? Because FM3145 and ER3145 both paint a very different picture.

Shrapnel Magazine, last issue I think

"News" article about how Clans adapted to new life outside Homeworlds

Edit: I'm outside now so I'll dig out details once I get to desktop

[Natasha Kerensky]

Save for RasDom, clans are at best stratocracies - ruled by the military. All the democratic trappings last only as long as it takes for the military to be mildly inconvenienced. Realistically, clans are fascist governments. Calling them democracies is at best, intentionally misleading, but really just wrong.

The Clans are stratocracies, but those militaries practices democracy.  Clan Councils (and the Grand Council) vote for their Khans, saKhans, and Loremasters and on major decisions within each Clan (and across the Clans).  That’s very different from the top-down manner under which militaries operate in the real world.  In addition to that, the vast majority of non-military decision making in each Clan is conducted by other caste councils and assemblies, which again, are voting bodies.  Although the warrior caste is ultimately responsible, in practice, they are actually responsible for little of Clan decision making outside the toumans.

Regarding fascism, there is no doubt that human/personal rights/liberties have been sacrificed for the good of various Clans or Khans at many points in their history.  That said, the Clans have also gone to war over mistreatment of their civilian castes, e.g., the lead up to the Widowmaker Absorption.  It’s fair to say that the Clans are susceptible to fascism because there is no body of rights protected by a judiciary independent of the warrior caste.  But many more Clans than just the Bears have avoided fascism at many more points in their history:  Wolves, especially pre-Refusal War (and arguably after); Foxes/Sharks; Cats; Horses; etc.

Also, almost any sci-fi military fiction will make the factions involved appear fascist whether or not the background materials actually characterize them as such.  No one wants to read a 300-page novel about a parliamentary debate on whether or not to go to war.  We want to read 300-page novels about the war, its leadership, and the sacrifices made on each side.

FWIW...

[Minemech]

 An interesting view might be that the Clans practice an inverted form of the Spartan Gerousia (Congress). The Spartan Gerousia was made of retired soldiers, but since the Clans when designed under Kerensky's vision were made to be culturally incompatible with such an idea, it was handed over to the closest equivalent the Clans could offer.

[tassa_kay]

Shrapnel Magazine, last issue I think

"News" article about how Clans adapted to new life outside Homeworlds

Edit: I'm outside now so I'll dig out details once I get to desktop

No worries, I already have it pulled up.

So this is kinda true, but also a bit misleading. The Shrapnel article indicates that the Alliance allows a limited number of citizens each "season" (weird word choice; why not just say year, or quarter if 'season' was the intent?) to seek out sponsorship for legal reassignment, which to me says it's by no means a guarantee that they'll even get it. It's certainly not a free flow of people between the two, as that would almost certainly cause serious social problems (or rather, worsen the problems they're already having), and there's still a sharp separation between the Ravens and the Outworlders.

[nova_dew]

I had a long response typed up, but I feel like we can’t properly unpack your comment without firmly crossing the no modern politics rule. Especially unpacking the modern propaganda required to call clans left leaning.

Short version. Save for RasDom, clans are at best stratocracies - ruled by the military. All the democratic trappings last only as long as it takes for the military to be mildly inconvenienced. Realistically, clans are fascist governments. Calling them democracies is at best, intentionally misleading, but really just wrong.

The Clans follow a form of economic Socialism, everything is owned by the Clan, hence some left and as many have pointed out including TPTB, they are a Democracy, do they and can they have Fascist leanings, yes, but they are still a democracy, you just have to be an active member of the caste to vote in that castes affairs and the vote of the Warrior Caste count as a Veto, no one ever said it was a fair democracy.

[Minemech]

 I am not sure the Clans would even qualify as anocracies, but I know that they would not through Kerensky's vision qualify under the coinage democracy. Even Sparta with its civil councils and its congress was still an autocracy.

[Metallgewitter]

No worries, I already have it pulled up.

So this is kinda true, but also a bit misleading. The Shrapnel article indicates that the Alliance allows a limited number of citizens each "season" (weird word choice; why not just say year, or quarter if 'season' was the intent?) to seek out sponsorship for legal reassignment, which to me says it's by no means a guarantee that they'll even get it. It's certainly not a free flow of people between the two, as that would almost certainly cause serious social problems (or rather, worsen the problems they're already having), and there's still a sharp separation between the Ravens and the Outworlders.

This sounds like the slave tribunals in the Marian Hegemony where a slave can petition to be assigned to the plebeian class but (at least until julius O'Reilly) it included a hefty bribe. So far the most "free flowing" system seems to be in the Dominion though even there joining the military is the best way to get up in life. But military uber alles isn't exactly the best way to govern a realm which houses billions of people not indoctrinated in your ways

[rebs]

In this game universe, joining the military is always the best option for somebody not born wealthy or noble (and even then, it can still help).

[Agathos]

No one wants to read a 300-page novel about a parliamentary debate on whether or not to go to war.

(Incoherent yelling from the direction of the Free Worlds League)

[truetanker]

Followed by loud sounds that are similar to gunshots, but no cries for medical.

TT

[Minemech]

Followed by loud sounds that are similar to gunshots, but no cries for medical.

TT

The Dominion is at it again

[Jellico]

The Dominion is just the Clan FWL. They forget you exist for 20 years then need to civil war you to trim you back down to size.

[Foxx Ital]

The Dominion is just the Clan FWL. They forget you exist for 20 years then need to civil war you to trim you back down to size.

 This is the real reason we have Ogre BA ^_^.

[nova_dew]

I am not sure the Clans would even qualify as anocracies, but I know that they would not through Kerensky's vision qualify under the coinage democracy. Even Sparta with its civil councils and its congress was still an autocracy.

I'd say they are a Semi-socialist Democratic Stratocracy, or were before they changed from the pressure of the IS, everything is owned by the Clan, the Warrior Council rules, but the warrior council is democratic, it's not autocratic because the council has the right to remove the Khan via a vote and the Khan is voted in.

Sarna, yes i know not the most reliable source but i'm still on my first coffee, has under Khan, that the position is only supposed to be taken while a Clan is involved in a conflict larger than a normal trial of possession and the Clan Council becomes a kurultai, so IF sarna is right, under Kerensky's vision the Clans are democratic, but i really suspect Kerensky just pulled parts of governmental theory out of a hat,
Elizabeth Hazen
"So great Kerensky what do you invision for our future"
Nicky K
"We are a..." sticks hand in hat "Clan based semi-socialist democratic autocracy!"
Sarah McEvedy
"Wait did you just pull out pieces of paper from a hat and just read them out?"
Nicky K
"I issue a trial of Annihilation against..." reaches into another hat "Clan.... Wolverine!"
Sarah McEvedy
"Who's Clan Wolverine? why are you all looking at me like that? ohhh.... bye!"
 

[Metallgewitter]

I would say it is a limited democracy as the major decisions are only voted on by warriors and the rest has nothing to say. And you can always fight against a decision with a trial. Almost like a thugocracy

[Minemech]

 Rule by thieves would be a kleptocracy. This might be interchangeable with thugs, though stratocracy might also work (No distinction between military and warriors in this definition). 
 Rule by a mob of people would be an ochlocracy.

[Church14]

I'd say they are a Semi-socialist Democratic Stratocracy, or were before they changed from the pressure of the IS, everything is owned by the Clan, the Warrior Council rules, but the warrior council is democratic, it's not autocratic because the council has the right to remove the Khan via a vote and the Khan is voted in.

Not really socialist. Given the complete control of the economy the protected class has, it’s a state run command economy. Socialism is considerably less heavy handed where government control of an industry is on a case by case basis on which makes most sense. Warriors in the clans seem to have control of every last facet when they want to.

Foxes would be state run capitalism.

Also, even if “elected” - an extremely generous word here given how few people vote on it - the scope of power the khan has is still that of an autocrat or authoritarian depending on the clan.

[Minemech]

 The warrior caste facet is why they are similar to the Spartan autocratic model, where assemblies could have power if higher levels allowed them to. The Gerousia itself had the power to remove kings in certain instances.

[nova_dew]

I would say it is a limited democracy as the major decisions are only voted on by warriors and the rest has nothing to say. And you can always fight against a decision with a trial. Almost like a thugocracy

Not really socialist. Given the complete control of the economy the protected class has, it’s a state run command economy. Socialism is considerably less heavy handed where government control of an industry is on a case by case basis on which makes most sense. Warriors in the clans seem to have control of every last facet when they want to.

Foxes would be state run capitalism.

Also, even if “elected” - an extremely generous word here given how few people vote on it - the scope of power the khan has is still that of an autocrat or authoritarian depending on the clan.

It doesn't matter how limited in scope those eligible to vote is, or how much power the person voted in has, or how the vote is held, as long as there is someone eligible to vote, as long as the person at the top allows a vote and a vote can happen, it's still a democracy, a democracy doesn't have to be fair to be a democracy, you could have three people on and island, with two eligible to vote and one votee having two votes, as long as a vote can be called it's a democracy, it's not a fair one, but it still is one.

[Minemech]

 I know that I am getting ignored here, but I am trying to tell you that that is not only not true, but I have a historic example I can present in Sparta. I am well aware of the limits of Athenian democracy, as well as some of its revolting extremes.

[Minemech]

 To put it another way, I think that there may be a confusion with superficial democratic trappings and a democracy. https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/trappings

[nova_dew]

I know that I am getting ignored here, but I am trying to tell you that that is not only not true, but I have a historic example I can present in Sparta. I am well aware of the limits of Athenian democracy, as well as some of its revolting extremes.

You're not getting ignored, you just keep citing two of many different forms of democracy, i can give an historical example, from only 200 years ago where being enfranchised and the number of votes you had was based on sex, social position, age, property and income, I can also name a Democratic system where out of 331.9 million people only 538 people have a vote.

noun: democracy
a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

bolded by me

The only thing that makes a Democracy is that those eligible to vote get to vote, everything else is window dressing, in the case of the Clans it's the warrior caste that get to vote for the Khan, it is a Democracy by the dictionary definition.

[Geg]

I don't think we can take the Oxford dictionary has the final word on the definition of Democracy, as there has been over 2500 years of political thought on the subject.  Aristotle would have put the Clans in next to the Spartans (and for later philosophers, the Romans) as a mixed constitution with oligarchic Learnings.   Since Not all warriors get a vote.  The council is only made up of Bloodnamed warriors, so there is a clear segregation of political power both by caste and by prestige/wealth.  That makes the whole system far oligarchy, the rule of the few, with some monarchal (the Khans) and democratic (the councils) traditions.

For me I feel that Clan society is clearly take a lot of influence from the Spartan constitution.

• Dual Executive service for life.
• Gerousia - Blooded Warriors that vote. Serving for Life
• Ekklesia/Spartiates- Warriors
• Perioeci - Freeborn Warriors
• Helots - Freebirths, with the option of doing better.
• Agoge - Brutal Training program to produce only the best warriors.

I feel like in Clan Society, Khans get deposed via some sort of legal process a lot more frequently than do IS House Lords, making Khans far more accountable to their populations.   And there seams to be more room for social advancement through talent at an early age.   While at the same time, Clan society offers a lot less opportunities for personal freedom than in other polities.

[truetanker]

Your saying, Khans are off'd if they chose a bad course without back plans or distractions. And cannot defend themselves in battle.

I can see that.

Only way is up to defend your honor or death, as you move among the ranking food chain.

TT