Author Topic: Mongol Doctrine questions.  (Read 2954 times)

StCptMara

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Mongol Doctrine questions.
« on: 20 May 2023, 23:23:44 »
So, I know: the Mongol Doctrine was developed by the Hell's Horses, and was mostly just focusing on mobile warfare. Malvina Hazen brought it to the "Application of Terror" that most people think of it as(i.e., killing planets, and letting people leave to tell what she did, etc.)

I am curious, though: What *exactly* are the principles of the original Mongol Doctrine? Where does it, beyond its take on the use of terror tactics, deviate from what Malvina used? Where, if anywhere, is it spelled out in detail? Where does it deviate from standard Clan tactics?

Asking because I want to introduce my players to the Mongol Doctrine, but I do not fully understand it.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #1 on: 20 May 2023, 23:39:15 »
So, I know: the Mongol Doctrine was developed by the Hell's Horses, and was mostly just focusing on mobile warfare. Malvina Hazen brought it to the "Application of Terror" that most people think of it as(i.e., killing planets, and letting people leave to tell what she did, etc.)

I am curious, though: What *exactly* are the principles of the original Mongol Doctrine? Where does it, beyond its take on the use of terror tactics, deviate from what Malvina used? Where, if anywhere, is it spelled out in detail? Where does it deviate from standard Clan tactics?

Asking because I want to introduce my players to the Mongol Doctrine, but I do not fully understand it.

This might help:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/can-someone-explain-malvina's-mongol-doctrine/

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StCptMara

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #2 on: 21 May 2023, 00:20:09 »
This might help:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/can-someone-explain-malvina's-mongol-doctrine/

Craig

That is Malvina's Mongol Doctrine, though. And, it does not really explain anything, especially not about the Hell's Horses version.
I come out of that thread, and I still do not grok the philosophy other than Malvina was psycho, and Malvina was a more extreme interpretation of it.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #3 on: 21 May 2023, 00:45:27 »
Mongol Doctrine is essentially a hammer-and-anvil doctrine with very large maneuver elements. Fast cavalry/striker units try to overwhelm the enemy and find their weaknesses, and anything they can't exploit is driven or lured towards a heavier anchor force. The goal is to use the greater maneuverability of the force as a whole to get more use out of fewer heavy/assault 'Mechs, while maintaining the classic combination of speed, surprise, and violence of action.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #4 on: 21 May 2023, 01:20:40 »
Sounds like it started out as an attempt at actual tactics.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #5 on: 21 May 2023, 01:41:06 »
Author of 32 Battletech short stories including "The Lance Killer," "Hikagemono," "Negotiation," "The Clawing," "Salvage," "The Promise," "Reap What You Sow," "Family Ties," "The Blood of Man," "End of Message," "Heroes' Bridge," "Kurodenkou," "Thirteen," "My Father's Sword," "Evacuation," "Operation Red Lion," "A Matter of Honor," "State of Grace," "Operation Blue Tiger," "A Warrior's Fear," "Shadow Angels," "Murphy's Method," "End of the Road," (IAMTW 2019 Scribe Award nominee!), "Tales of the Cracked Canopy: Blind Arrogance," "Laws Are Silent," "No Tears," "Tales of the Cracked Canopy: Shadows of the Past," and "Three White Roses."
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StCptMara

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #6 on: 21 May 2023, 05:07:08 »
Mongol Doctrine is essentially a hammer-and-anvil doctrine with very large maneuver elements. Fast cavalry/striker units try to overwhelm the enemy and find their weaknesses, and anything they can't exploit is driven or lured towards a heavier anchor force. The goal is to use the greater maneuverability of the force as a whole to get more use out of fewer heavy/assault 'Mechs, while maintaining the classic combination of speed, surprise, and violence of action.

See, this is more like I am looking for. I guess I am bugged that the only descriptions I have really seen of it used are from the Falcon Perspective, and those don't really convey the thought behind the Horses version. How does the Mongol Doctrine work with Clan Warfare? Do they still bid to waste the least resources? While I get Zellbrigen is out the window, would they still bring a lighter, or smaller force for greater glory? Or would they drop a a cluster to take on a lance or star?
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #7 on: 21 May 2023, 05:28:53 »
Its basically Blitzkrieg.

In the 20's and 30's Germany and Russia were looking at doctrine and tactics and they evolved two similar but different doctrines. Blitzkrieg and Deep Battle.

Whilst they are similar, there's lots of differences. The biggest is that Deep Battle was more a strategic doctrine whilst Blitzkrieg was a tactical one.

Deep Battle relied on having large numbers and pushing against the enemy until somewhere broke or weakened, and then you put your strength into the area where the line is faltering to affect a breakthrough. Once a breakthrough was achived, you would push your leading forces in deep into the enemy rear areas, whilst encircling those still facing the forces you was pushing against them to try and get a breakthrough.

This relied on large numbers, and was more tightly controlled, where the Commander of the offensive would be updated where the line was weakening and then push their forces to where it was breaking.

Blitzkrieg instead relied on its recon units to find the weak points between hostile units and then push through with speed and aggression, all the while reporting back to the local commander who would then direct their forces to where the recon units had found the weak point and give you the breakthrough.



With the generally small scale battles of Battletech, the Clans would probably gravitate towards Blitzkrieg in any sort of strategic situation, where speed, firepower, aggression and initiative at the lower levels would all help. The Great Houses, with larger forces would probably go more towards Deep Battle in a truly large clash between forces.

And I think that the Mongol Doctrine was just the Horses actually codifying this into their doctrine, and them forming very specific units or groupings to give them the fast cavalry screen and battering ram they would need to break through whilst the heavier forces would follow up behind and destroy any cut off elements.

And this was the Clans thinking strategically and applying it deliberately rather than in an ad-hoc manner. Whilst we also have examples of the Great Houses using Deep Battle, its the 4th Succession War, the FedCom forces pushed against everywhere that the Cappies were defending, once they found a weak point or a poorly defended world, the huge reserves they had available from both armed forces were able to mass and punch through that gap.

I said much of the same stuff here - https://bg.battletech.com/forums/general-discussion/equivalent-s-to-the-art-of-war/msg1361278/#msg1361278 as well as expanded on some points.
« Last Edit: 21 May 2023, 05:39:21 by marauder648 »
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StCptMara

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #8 on: 21 May 2023, 06:24:44 »

And I think that the Mongol Doctrine was just the Horses actually codifying this into their doctrine, and them forming very specific units or groupings to give them the fast cavalry screen and battering ram they would need to break through whilst the heavier forces would follow up behind and destroy any cut off elements.

Do we have anything giving the composition of those specific units? Is it at the Trinary/Nova level? Cluster/Supernova?
Do the Horses still bid?

The one example I have read of the Clans using Mongol tactics in combat from the Mongol side(The opening fiction in ilClan, I think? Where the Falcons were fighting on Mars), the light elements cut through, and then attacked the rear of where they cut through, which sounds more like if Deep Battle and Blitzkrieg had an unholy love child...

Also, thank you Marauder648 and Pokefan548 for your patience. I feel almost like a grognard in that here is something new, and I don't understand it like the old stuff, and am trying to make it make sense in terms of the old stuff I am familiar with.

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #9 on: 21 May 2023, 07:40:11 »
It's my pleasure :) And the turning around to destroy an encircled force is probably the big difference here. What whereas Deep Battle/Blitzkrieg would cut off an enemy force and let them be ground down or forced to surrender. Mongol Doctrine instead seems to be a case of quickly destroying the trapped and disorganised enemy so you can quickly move on without tying up any friendly follow on forces.
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wantec

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #10 on: 21 May 2023, 09:01:45 »
Era Report 3145, in the Hell's Horses section for the First Horde Cluster has this description as a part of it:

Quote
Consisting of two Trinaries and an attached support supernova, the Horde took its cues from the ancient Mongols and their steppeborn style of engaging enemy forces. Mangudai Trinary is made up almost entirely of light vehicles and ‘Mechs, with very few in the medium weight class. This enables it to move swiftly and use hit-and-run tactics to draw the enemy out of position and into the waiting jaws of Tulughma Trinary. That unit, made up entirely of heavy and assault machines, is used as the hammer to strike into the back of the enemy once they have been drawn out by the Mangudai. The Support Supernova contains the Horde’s few infantry, and is expected to assist wherever needed.

In terms of battlefield play I would have Mangudai forces zoom up, make zell challenges where possible and then pull back closer to the Tulughma forces. If you are using zell, don't let your light Mangudai forces tie up all the enemies in duels, leave some free for your heavy Tulughma units. In the case of your light forces being outmassed badly I would try and get some 2-1 or 3-1 "duels" based on either combined BV/tonnage/etc.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #11 on: 21 May 2023, 12:05:21 »

It’s worth pointing out that we really can’t replicate historical Mongol tactics in a normal BT game.  The Mongols enjoyed absolute advantages in weapons range (their composite recurve bows) and unit mobility (all light cavalry force).  BT is a balanced game, where no player enjoys absolute advantages unless we shape the forces to give one side an absolute advantage in range and mobility.  Even then, it’s hard to pull off.  A slow 3025 force can still respond with LRMs against a fast-moving, long-ranged Clan cavalry unit, for example.

Thanks to their absolute advantages in range and mobility, Mongol field engagements were more slaughter than combat.  There was no breakthrough and penetration, like in the blitzkrieg and deep battle diagrams upthread.  Mongols either conducted waves of cavalry charges (what they called “caracals”) that never made physical contact with the enemy line and unleashed waves or arrows from afar.  Or they went straight to the envelopment and encirclement (what they called the “nerge” or hunting circle) thanks to their high superior mobility and then rained down arrows from safely outside the reach of their opponents’ weapons. 

The only canon Hell’s Horses unit that can sorta replicate these Mongol tactics is the Hadur with its 9/14 hover movement (in some terrain) and the range of its Arrow IV missiles.  I suppose you could also equip fast Fire Moth, Phantom, and Viper omnis with ELRMs for a similar effect.  But in any event, it won’t be a fun game, especially for the non-Mongol opposition.  (If it is fun for the enemy, then you’re not using Mongol tactics.)

Eventually, the Mongols might send in a lance- and scimitar-equipped heavy cavalry charge to finish off an enemy at close range that had been exhausted by caracals.  But this was more an expedient than a necessity.  Or they might leave a hole in their nerge for opponents to “escape” from and be more quickly slaughtered.  But again, this was not necessary.

It’s also true that the Mongols would sometimes attack and then feign retreat to string out an enemy force.  We see this depicted in BT fiction involving the ELH, Kell Hounds, and Goons (I think).  And in theory it could work in a game with rolling mapsheets so that an opponent’s Locusts are separated from their Atlases and destroyed piecemeal.  But a smart opponent will just keep their formation together and force the BT Mongols to come to them.

And that’s eventually what the Mongol’s real-world opponents did, relying heavily on fortifications to negate the Mongols’ advantages in range and mobility and forcing the Mongols to resort to siege warfare.  In return, the Mongols used psychological warfare to shorten these sieges as much as possible.  For example, after slaughtering an opponent’s force or settlement, the Mongols would allow a few terrified individuals to escape to warn the next force or town, increasing the likelihood of an easy surrender in the next battle or siege. Or the Mongols would unnerve opponents by making their forces appear much larger than they actually were:  setting several campfires for each man, creating huge artificial dust clouds behind their movements, and appearing in several disparate locations at once.   Cruelty also played a role, like in the kharash, a human shield forced to march in front of a Mongol formation.  It’s the Mongols’ psychological warfare that Malvina (sorta) reflects in the fiction.

Eventually the widespread use of the hand cannon put an end to the absolute range advantage enjoyed by the recurve bow and that drove a stake in the superiority of Mongol tactics.  (The Mongols used gunpowder bombs and canons in sieges themselves.)

Of course, with an all-cavalry force, several horses per man, and a light baggage train enabled by a diet of horse milk, the Mongols also enjoyed absolute advantages in strategic maneuver and logistics.  But no BT game reflects realistic strategic warfare.

This video is a decent, quick (~15 min after you skip the embedded advertisement) summary of Mongol tactics:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ichNmAe8XzE&pp=ygUObW9uZ29sIHRhY3RpY3M%3D
« Last Edit: 21 May 2023, 17:37:24 by Natasha Kerensky »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #12 on: 21 May 2023, 12:17:01 »
The other thing to remember about the Mongols was that they were absolutely dependent upon their horses for fighting.  The few times they were forced to fight without horses, they lost badly.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #13 on: 21 May 2023, 13:27:17 »
The other thing to remember about the Mongols was that they were absolutely dependent upon their horses for fighting.  The few times they were forced to fight without horses, they lost badly.

Not necessarily true.  For example, Mongols would dismount against forces with elephants because the elephants frightened their horses.  While on foot, the Mongols simply focused their arrows on the elephants until the elephants retreated, then remounted and continued as usual.

No doubt, the horse and the composite recurve bow were key to the Mongols’ wild successes.  They could not have done what they did without one or the other.  But the Mongols added to the horse and bow keen tactical minds sharpened by centuries of endemic warfare among their own people and just plain everyday hunting on the steppes.  They could and did successfully adapt.

Its basically Blitzkrieg.

The Mongol tactics of the Hell’s Horses may be some variant of blitzkrieg.  The canon sources are so sketchy and goofy that it could be most anything, and the game is so crude and balanced that it has a hard time replicating the fiction and fluff.

But to be clear, the historical Mongol method of warfare was decidedly not blitzkrieg, with a lightning punch through a schwerpunkt followed by envelopment.  The Mongol way of war was very patient and broadly wore down an enemy with arrow fire from caracals and nerges (and occasional feigned retreats) over a long period of time while rarely engaging the enemy in close combat.  The Mongols had whole camels loaded down with quivers in their baggage train so they could keep up an extended rain of arrow fire, for example.  Although they sometimes used a heavy cavalry charge or a hole in their encirclements to hasten the slaughter of an enemy force, Mongol patience was in many ways the opposite of lightning war.

Quote
In the 20's and 30's Germany and Russia were looking at doctrine and tactics and they evolved two similar but different doctrines. Blitzkrieg and Deep Battle.

Same goes for deep battle.  Blitz and deep battle developed in the era of modern nation-states, total war, and early mechanized warfare where battle lines ran along the entire border of a country, artillery could cover miles, and vehicles could redeploy tens of miles in minutes along lines of communication (roadways).  Mongol warfare developed in an era when warrior bands had to find each other in borderless, largely empty lands in order to fight hand-to-hand or with weapon ranges that maybe covered the length of a football field.  They evolved in very different times and places with very different technologies and capabilities, and one has almost nothing to do with the other beyond the notion that fixing and encircling your enemy is usually a good idea.

That’s not to knock the good explanation of blitz and deep battle upthread.  It’s just to point out the very limited applicability to historical Mongol warfare.

FWIW...
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"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
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"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #14 on: 21 May 2023, 13:35:49 »
Not necessarily true.  For example, Mongols would dismount against forces with elephants because the elephants frightened their horses.  While on foot, the Mongols simply focused their arrows on the elephants until the elephants retreated, then remounted and continued as usual.

Those were instances where the Mongols voluntarily didn't use their horses for part of a battle against specific enemy units.  In cases where they were simply denied the ability to use horses, like when they tried to invade the Mamluk Sultanate during the dry season when there wasn't enough water to support their steeds, they suffered some of their rare outright defeats.
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marauder648

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #15 on: 21 May 2023, 14:57:18 »
It could be worse, could be us trying to figure out what the Hellions 'Pack Zell' idea was :D
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wantec

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #16 on: 21 May 2023, 15:25:27 »
It could be worse, could be us trying to figure out what the Hellions 'Pack Zell' idea was :D
What you want is on Pg 80 of FM Crusader Clans, under the "Honor in the Pack" subheading.

It was used by light or medium stars against heavy or assault 'Mechs. Up to a star of Ice Hellions (but not always the whole star) would group up and make an attack run at a heavy or assault target to weaken it. Then they'd pull back and bid amongst themselves for the honor of finishing the duel. They would bid away weapons, heat sinks, and other equipment until they got a winner. The winner would finish off the target alone, but could "break their bid" and bring in what they had bid away at the cost of honor.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #17 on: 21 May 2023, 17:32:00 »
In cases where they were simply denied the ability to use horses, like when they tried to invade the Mamluk Sultanate during the dry season when there wasn't enough water to support their steeds, they suffered some of their rare outright defeats.

Clue by four me if I’m missing a reference, but I don’t know of any sources stating such.  In their first loss, the Mongols of the Ilkhanate lost Ain Julat in 1260 mainly because they were outnumbered and because the Mamluk general Baybars knew the area from childhood.  The bulk of the Mongol forces had left to select a new Great Khan, leaving behind a single tumen and allied/subject forces.  The Mamluks also used steppe cavalry tactics against the Mongols at Ain Julat, including a feigned retreat to an ambush set by Baybars, and employed hand canons in the ambush, granting the Mamluks an additional element of surprise.  This pattern would repeat itself in the following decades (1st and 2nd Homs, Elbistan, etc.) as outnumbered Ilkhanate Mongols lost to Mamluks with superior numbers and technology employing steppe cavalry tactics similar to those of the Mongols.  Many of the Mamluks were or were descended from Turkic steppe cavalry, and Genghis himself regarded them as his most dangerous adversary.

This culminated at Marj al-Saffar in 1303, where the Mamluks used a nerge to surround the Mongol general Qutlugh Shah and his forces.  The next day, the Mamluks opened the nerge and the Mongols retreated to the nearby river.  The Mongols and their horses did need water, but they were not dismounted prior.  The Mamluks then pinned the Mongols against the river and defeated them in detail.  This ended Mongol activity in the Levant and Syria.

The region where Mongol cavalry could not be employed was the jungles of Southeast Asia.  Having no way to move a tumen of ~50K horses strategically or tactically through that terrain, the Mongols sent allied/subject forces on riverine campaigns instead.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #18 on: 21 May 2023, 17:51:42 »
It could be worse, could be us trying to figure out what the Hellions 'Pack Zell' idea was :D

Yeah, never made sense.  You’re going to initiate battle with a light swarm attack, then disengage to assess the damage and have several minutes of debate over what single light unit gets the honor of finishing the kill — all while _the enemy is still advancing_ on you?  Sounds like a recipe for disaster unless you’re attacking stationary fortifications.

It’s a sci-fi game for fun so it’s understandable, but what little canon treatise there is on BT tactics is really clown-like and screwball and reads more like instructions on how to lose spectacularly and die ignominiously.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #19 on: 21 May 2023, 18:22:00 »
Clue by four me if I’m missing a reference, but I don’t know of any sources stating such. 

Wikipedia gives the source as
Paul Meyvaert, “An Unknown Letter of Hulagu, Il-khan of Persia, to King Louis IX of France,” Viator 11 (1980): 258; 249: "Since it is our custom to prefer the cooler places of the snowy mountains in the heat of summer, we decided to return for a while to the mountains of Greater Armenia, especially as the greater part of the food and fodder had been consumed after the devastation of Aleppo and Damacsus. However, we left a few of our men behind to destroy any Assassin strongholds that were still standing. They lay in hiding because they were so few in number and the Babylonian dog mice came out of their caves and attacked them. Some, who disobeyed our orders, invaded French possessions and, receiving their deserts, were bitten by the aforementioned mice. Although revenge on these recreants would please us somewhat, and they have not caused any real harm, it is nevertheless our intention shortly to complete our plan against the said infidel Babylonians of the canine race exactly as we did against the other rebels."

The document does appear to exist and be available at https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/abs/10.1484/J.VIATOR.2.301508?journalCode=viator, but only if you pay for it.  Viator appears to be a UCLA journal.
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marauder648

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #20 on: 21 May 2023, 23:37:53 »
Yeah, never made sense.  You’re going to initiate battle with a light swarm attack, then disengage to assess the damage and have several minutes of debate over what single light unit gets the honor of finishing the kill — all while _the enemy is still advancing_ on you?  Sounds like a recipe for disaster unless you’re attacking stationary fortifications.

It’s a sci-fi game for fun so it’s understandable, but what little canon treatise there is on BT tactics is really clown-like and screwball and reads more like instructions on how to lose spectacularly and die ignominiously.

My thoughts exactly, a quick and easy solution would be that lets say you rock up in a 70 ton Summoner, the Hellions can fight you with mechs that make up to that tonnage (so like 2 x 35 tonners etc). Its a darn sight easier to organise and simpler than the issues the cannonical description has.
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Gorgon

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #21 on: 22 May 2023, 04:30:58 »
My thoughts exactly, a quick and easy solution would be that lets say you rock up in a 70 ton Summoner, the Hellions can fight you with mechs that make up to that tonnage (so like 2 x 35 tonners etc). Its a darn sight easier to organise and simpler than the issues the cannonical description has.

Yeah, that sounds do-able. Pitting a star of Dashers against a Dire Wolf would be quite the fight.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #22 on: 22 May 2023, 04:55:59 »
Yeah, that sounds do-able. Pitting a star of Dashers against a Dire Wolf would be quite the fight.

And you could rearrange groupings on the fly, the Hellions are suppose to attack as a pack with them breaking off to engage bigger foes so have that pack, have like two stars coming at you and they're shifting and moving to engage targets, massing up the tonnage on the fly, it would be fast and aggressive and far easier to do than the cannonical one.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #23 on: 22 May 2023, 06:38:34 »
OK, so while the Ice Hellions are kind of interesting..Steering this back on topic..

How does the Mongol Doctrine work against Clan Forces? I know Malvina defeated the Horses in a sort of "Who uses it better" Trial where she set the very crops she was trialing for on fire, with toxic chemicals to boot, so the Horses couldn't use the crops, either. But...against sane opponents, would the Horses still use the tactics? Would they use normal Clan fighting styles(within their own methods)?

Against Inner Sphere opponents, would they still try and bid down? Or would they just drop the whole cluster for even a militia lance? If they bid down...what would that look like if, say, they bid down to only a trinary from the Mongol Cluster?

Do the Horses eschew terror tactics and scorched earth? Or do they just do those less than Mavlina, but they are still a part of the Horses' version of the Mongol Doctrine?
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #24 on: 22 May 2023, 06:57:18 »
Not to mention the Hellion's Pack zell doesn't always go over well with the other Clans so they have to be careful who they try to use it against.

OK, so while the Ice Hellions are kind of interesting..Steering this back on topic..

How does the Mongol Doctrine work against Clan Forces? I know Malvina defeated the Horses in a sort of "Who uses it better" Trial where she set the very crops she was trialing for on fire, with toxic chemicals to boot, so the Horses couldn't use the crops, either. But...against sane opponents, would the Horses still use the tactics? Would they use normal Clan fighting styles(within their own methods)?
Until the Horses decided they were done with Malvina, they would have felt honor-bound to not use any version of Mongol tactics (their own or the Falcon version). Before and after Malvina they could use the tactics against Clan forces, that's where they first used them and declared the tactic successful. Even against another Clan and using duels, the idea is to send out the light units to find/stir up the enemy and bring them to where the heavier force can engage. The lighter force would engage in some duels, win some/lose some, but at least damage some enemies which would make the clean up role of the heavier units easier.

Against Inner Sphere opponents, would they still try and bid down? Or would they just drop the whole cluster for even a militia lance? If they bid down...what would that look like if, say, they bid down to only a trinary from the Mongol Cluster?
The Horses are still Clan, so they would use an appropriate size force bidding down to take the objective. Bidding down to a Trinary actually makes for an easy example since Era Report 3145 described the Cluster in terms of 3 units. At Trinary scale, I'd have at least 1 star of the fast, light units, 1 star of the heavy anvil forces, and then use the last star to customize it for mission. If I thought I needed the infantry support I would add that as the 3rd star. If I needed more of the fast or anvil forces make the 3rd star that.

Do the Horses eschew terror tactics and scorched earth? Or do they just do those less than Mavlina, but they are still a part of the Horses' version of the Mongol Doctrine?
The Horses, except one or two Clusters while they were on loan to the Falcons, did not use the terror tactics. The Horses used the tactics I mentioned and some of the other historical tactics like has been discussed here. The Falcons took the name, overwhelming firepower, and the terror tactics.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #25 on: 22 May 2023, 07:54:11 »
My read of their tactics was that horses used faster, lighter elements to try and force suboptimal choices from the enemy while denying a real, concrete engagement. This was supposed to allow the heavier forces to then hit small, disorganized, and isolated enemy forces with concentrated force.

That said, I certainly haven’t read every word printed for Battletech, but I don’t remember the Horses’ version ever being deployed and shown to work?

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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #26 on: 22 May 2023, 08:13:25 »
I feel it's worth noting that there essentially exists two separate versions of Mongol Doctrine: the original Horse Mongol Doctrine and the Falcon Mongol Doctrine that Malvina twisted to the point of being unrecognizable. By the end of the Falcons' and Horses' working relationship, the two had few if any actual common points.

One was a doctrine of tactical and strategic flexibility in order to overcome enemy armed forces, the other was a philosophy of scorched-earth terrorism in order to rule any remaining survivors by fear. The method, means, and even motive are totally different.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #27 on: 22 May 2023, 08:33:36 »
Wikipedia gives the source as
Paul Meyvaert, “An Unknown Letter of Hulagu, Il-khan of Persia, to King Louis IX of France,” Viator 11 (1980): 258; 249: "Since it is our custom to prefer the cooler places of the snowy mountains in the heat of summer, we decided to return for a while to the mountains of Greater Armenia, especially as the greater part of the food and fodder had been consumed after the devastation of Aleppo and Damacsus.

This source doesn’t state that the Mongols were fighting dismounted in Syria.  It states that after battle in Syria, they didn’t stick around in areas of poor pasturage that could not support their horses long-term.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #28 on: 22 May 2023, 09:18:04 »
This source doesn’t state that the Mongols were fighting dismounted in Syria.  It states that after battle in Syria, they didn’t stick around in areas of poor pasturage that could not support their horses long-term.

Gotcha, I didn't catch the earlier posts/context there.
They had a smaller army to fight the Mamluks because they sent most back because of poor pasturage, but there's nothing there about the ones that were there fighting any differently.
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Re: Mongol Doctrine questions.
« Reply #29 on: 22 May 2023, 10:40:18 »
That said, I certainly haven’t read every word printed for Battletech, but I don’t remember the Horses’ version ever being deployed and shown to work?

The Horses' Mongol Doctrine was explained, and used to great effect, in "A Rending of Falcons". The Golden Ordun, which at that time consisted of Malvina's Omega Galaxy and the Horses' Fire Horse Galaxy, used the Horses' Mongol Doctrine in battle against the Falcons' Vau Galaxy (which had been filled out to twice its normal size, expecting only to fight Malvina's forces).

An interesting little nugget from that battle: Galaxy Commander Manas Amirault fielded a Fire Moth in the mangudai at the beginning of the battle, using his speed to bait the Falcons into giving chase, and then he switched over to a Warhawk for the remainder of the battle.
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