Author Topic: Clan Keshik Ranks  (Read 1951 times)

XanKortal

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Clan Keshik Ranks
« on: 29 May 2023, 08:24:15 »
Weird question that got brought up, and figured it was worth a good long think.

So (ostensibly) each of the Keshiks are filled out with the best warriors to represent each Galaxy Commander/Loremaster/Khan's personal bodyguards. (we'll set aside that the Keshiks may very well be just honor guard positions for all intents and purposes)

But by that same token, the whole Trial of Position system they've concocted would lead to most of their best warriors rising in the ranks, rather than stagnating at point/star commander.

So what rank is the average member of a Keshik?

Presumably, each member is just a high ranked warrior (Star Captain or Star Colonel) that just doesn't have a unit assigned to them, since it's such a high profile position, but someone I was speaking with asserted that they 'must' be lower ranked warriors because each rank 'must' have an appropriately sized unit assigned to them. (A star commander must be in command a star to hold the rank)

Obviously, I am less than convinced by this argument, but it did prompt me to search for a good answer to the question, regardless.

Is there any info about to support one way or the other aside from circumstantial details?

phoenixalpha

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #1 on: 29 May 2023, 08:39:09 »
From the Wolf Clan & Jade Falcon sourcebooks from many many moons ago.

Keshik's will have a Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander with an Aide - usually a Star Colonel/Star Captain as the leaders.
Then the usual Star Captain in charge of the Trinary, with Mechwarrior/Pilots under them and a Star Commander in charge of the other Stars in the Trinary.




XanKortal

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #2 on: 29 May 2023, 08:56:33 »
I will admit, I generally try to avoid those two books in particular - what with all of the retcons Comstar Misinformation floating around in their pages.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #3 on: 29 May 2023, 10:03:52 »
We've seen Keshiks that had more specific criteria attached to them. Like a Keshik for a Loremaster (Ghost Bear) where many of the Keshik's members were that person's lifelong friends.

A Bear Keshik was filled with warriors from the same sibko, to take advantage of that inherent teamwork that they have.

The Loremaster of the Coyotes got a Keshik where many of the members served double-duty as the Loremaster's staff.

So the actual criteria varies.

Beyond that, I do suspect it's a great honor, and rather than just "best" I think it's probably filled with a lot of elite warriors who have shown tremendous potential. Up and coming (probably helps to come from the right lineages, that Clan's best politically connected bloodname houses). And therefore, they are there to also learn and to cultivate the mentor/mentee and sponsorship relationships needed to advance their careers.

Plus, let's re-examine and rethink this term "best" a bit. What does that mean?

"Best doesn't have to mean the best of the entire warrior caste. sub-divide it.

The rank and file are among the best mechwarriors/elementals/pilots of the Clan. Not officers. But best of the rank and file.
The Star Commanders are among the best Star Commanders of the Clan.
The Star Captains are among the best Star Captains in the Clan.

See the difference?

So no, I don't think that the keshiks are staffed with high ranking warriors who accepted a lesser posting to be part of the Keshik (I'm not discounting that possibility completely, that could happen, but I don't think that's standard operating procedure here). I think they are among the best of their respective rank tier within the Clan. But also chosen for political reasons (they are of the right lineages/Bloodname House to be well-connected and to go far in the Clan, but also factoring in the desire to cultivate them further to be tomorrow's higher rankers.)
« Last Edit: 29 May 2023, 10:13:48 by Alan Grant »

phoenixalpha

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #4 on: 29 May 2023, 10:27:35 »
Personally, I would think that the members of a Keshik are really good at what they do and fulfil other roles too.

So you may have some ultra elite pilot/gunners with absolutely no desire and/or skill at being commanders but are amazingly good at being bodyguards for the Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander.

You may have aide de camps/and or communications specialists who can filter communications for the leader of that Galaxy and do amazingly well at that.

You may have strategic or tactical geniuses who have been "requested" by their leaders to be in the Keshik for their skill sets yet are pretty average pilot/gunners.

A Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander needs more than just elite pilots and gunners in their unit, they'll more than likely need a whole set of skills available as they'll be running things rather than just be good warriors.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #5 on: 29 May 2023, 13:10:38 »
Also depends on the size of the Keshik and composition. Ghost Bear Keshiks are different than Wolf ones. I’m not sure the Huey drivers are the best in the Clan, but the mech pilots might be. Some clans (although I’m not sure offhand which) use Clusters as their Keshiks. And of course it depends on the era. IIRC though most Keshiks will take a demotion to join the Keshik as it is a superior position to a normal command, although there would only be one Star Colonel as an aide to the Keshik’s Commander.

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #6 on: 29 May 2023, 13:55:24 »
IMHO the Keshik might include friends, followers, supporters of the Keshik commander. I would call a Keshik even a retinue.
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BaldDen

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #7 on: 29 May 2023, 15:07:59 »
Keshik is group of experienced warriors or ristars, who rise in clan rate.
Critchell was commander of Keshik before saKhan position.

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #8 on: 29 May 2023, 15:46:01 »
Clan warriors also take into account their entire codex and Blodname, not just their immediate rank

So a "simple" MechWarrior in a Keshik is still going to be seen as a superior warrior to any other MechWarrior from another unit

Just like Captain Picard is "just" a captain, but commanding the flagship, and his impressive record, he can take command of fleets when needed and other captains don't even blink
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XanKortal

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #9 on: 29 May 2023, 16:26:08 »
Beyond that, I do suspect it's a great honor, and rather than just "best" I think it's probably filled with a lot of elite warriors who have shown tremendous potential. Up and coming (probably helps to come from the right lineages, that Clan's best politically connected bloodname houses). And therefore, they are there to also learn and to cultivate the mentor/mentee and sponsorship relationships needed to advance their careers.

Plus, let's re-examine and rethink this term "best" a bit. What does that mean?

"Best doesn't have to mean the best of the entire warrior caste. sub-divide it.

The rank and file are among the best mechwarriors/elementals/pilots of the Clan. Not officers. But best of the rank and file.
The Star Commanders are among the best Star Commanders of the Clan.
The Star Captains are among the best Star Captains in the Clan.

See the difference?

So no, I don't think that the keshiks are staffed with high ranking warriors who accepted a lesser posting to be part of the Keshik (I'm not discounting that possibility completely, that could happen, but I don't think that's standard operating procedure here). I think they are among the best of their respective rank tier within the Clan. But also chosen for political reasons (they are of the right lineages/Bloodname House to be well-connected and to go far in the Clan, but also factoring in the desire to cultivate them further to be tomorrow's higher rankers.)

So, the "Honor" and/or political angle definitely tracks - it's not necessarily skill but how your Codex looks that is the determinant in how you get chosen. I had set that aside just because it wasn't a satisfying answer, but it is a consistent one.

However, I would counter that the clans don't really make a distinction between officer and non-officer - after all the primary determinant of your rank is how well you outfight your opposition. Being a better commander doesn't do a Star Captain any good for holding onto his rank if the Point Commander/Mechwarrior trialing for his rank is better than him in a 1v1 fight.
I mean, just look at Galaxy Commander Hunter Lewis - he wasn't even Bloodnamed when he challenged (and killed) the previous Galaxy Commander as a Star Captain. Obviously, CBS Upsilon was better off with Hunter Lewis at command because they drastically improved, but there are more than plenty of barely-passable commanders that got to their rank by just being good mechwarriors.

Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #10 on: 29 May 2023, 17:11:49 »
I still think it could very much depend on skill. Just divide that skill into tiers.

Keshiks aside, each Clan has its favored elite units. Are the warriors of those units = to the warriors of a less prestigious command?

Just something to think about. Even within each rank, there are warriors deemed to be better than others.

EDIT: My point being, I don't think it's really that different from how the Clan decides which warriors will go to their flagship Galaxy/Clusters as opposed to some other unit. Canon sources tell us such units get the "best" warriors. But on paper they are the same rank to their peers in other Galaxies and Clusters. So there must be more going on there, a way of determining which "Warriors" (referring to the rank) are better than others. An individual who assigned to the Falcon Guards or the First Bear Guards, still carry the rank Warrior, just as that Warrior assigned to a Battle/Striker Cluster or a PCG. But within that, there are clearly measuring sticks that separate even warriors of the same rank to different tiers. It's probably a lot of things but at the core of it is still an evaluation of their skills.

It's just a subset of that, the same kind of warriors who would be assigned to the flagship Galaxy and flagship Clusters of the Clan, but even pickier. Probably with the Khan or Loremaster or Galaxy Commander having a lot of personal say in the makeup of their personal unit. Perhaps even picking the roster out of the pool of high caliber applicants based on their own personal judgement.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2023, 17:57:19 by Alan Grant »

paladin2019

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #11 on: 29 May 2023, 17:13:24 »
There is a factor of the trial of position comes down "I'm the Khan and Bob won the trial because I want him and not you in my keshik," right? That's pretty much how I understand the 13th Wolf Guards are staffed; Natasha chose the old pipehitters she wanted, issue a Trial of Grievance if you object to not being one of them.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #12 on: 29 May 2023, 23:12:35 »
The Blood Spirits are provided a bit of detail about how their Blood Guard Keshik works that I thought might be of interest on this topic.

The Khan or saKhan personally chooses every warrior in the Keshik, assignment to which is considered to be the highest honor in the Clan other than their Blooding award. Once chosen, the warrior must pass a Trial of Position, though the Loremaster has the right to veto any warrior's induction into the Keshik, a no vote meaning the Loremaster thinks the warrior might not be able to handle continuous contact with other Clans. It also mentions that the Khan can override the Loremaster's veto (but rarely does so).
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cmerwin

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #13 on: 29 May 2023, 23:43:27 »
I think they are among the best of their respective rank tier within the Clan. But also chosen for political reasons (they are of the right lineages/Bloodname House to be well-connected and to go far in the Clan, but also factoring in the desire to cultivate them further to be tomorrow's higher rankers.)


This tracks. Also, following this well-reasoned line, the Keshik is the most outward-facing unit of the Clan, and is typically associated with the Khan or saKhan. From a political perspective, the keshik embodies - to other Clans - the ristars of that Clan. As @tassa_kay suggests, the Keshik is chosen to globally represent the best of the possible best - for that Clan, for each position. Also, most members of a keshik get the best possible equipment available for that Clan, for that reason.
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phoenixalpha

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #14 on: 30 May 2023, 01:23:25 »
Is is understood that each Keshik is essentially the personal body guard/honour guard for the Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander? Would that Keshik travel with the Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander everywhere they go? So if a Khan was on Strana Mechty, that Keshik would also be posted to Strana Mechty?

paladin2019

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #15 on: 30 May 2023, 01:55:27 »
"Posted" means that is their home base. The Black Keshik is posted to Strana Mechty. If the khan is posted there, then yes, it would follow their keshik is, as well. If the kahn is there for some other purpose, any rules about bringing their warriors to the capital would be in place.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #16 on: 30 May 2023, 02:01:19 »
During the Clans' heydey (before they really started eating each other post-Great Refusal), it was pretty common for many of the Clans to have a Keshik posted to their holdings on Strana Mechty. The duty was seen as both very honorable and undesirable because of the lack of combat opportunities.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #17 on: 30 May 2023, 06:38:36 »
Is is understood that each Keshik is essentially the personal body guard/honour guard for the Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander? Would that Keshik travel with the Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander everywhere they go? So if a Khan was on Strana Mechty, that Keshik would also be posted to Strana Mechty?

It probably really depends on where they are going and what they are doing and what the risk level of of combat. But combat can pop up almost anywhere. A political/diplomatic incident can rapidly transition to a Trial of some kind. So I think it's helpful for the Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander to have warriors nearby.

"It depends" really is probably the answer here. Look at the situation, look at where the Keshik is needed most and where the risk of combat is, and make a judgement call.

phoenixalpha

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #18 on: 30 May 2023, 07:05:13 »
"It depends" really is probably the answer here. Look at the situation, look at where the Keshik is needed most and where the risk of combat is, and make a judgement call.

I wonder if this would/could lead to possible shenanigans. If you spot a Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander without their usual body guard would it be possible to decapitate the clan leadership with a well placed trial of possession for that Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander.

Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #19 on: 30 May 2023, 07:18:10 »
I wonder if this would/could lead to possible shenanigans. If you spot a Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander without their usual body guard would it be possible to decapitate the clan leadership with a well placed trial of possession for that Khan/saKhan/Galaxy Commander.

Probably is tempting, which is probably why at least a portion of the Keshik likely does travel with that individual (I'm speculating, but I can see a leader taking at least a Star with them, even if combat isn't expected those warriors may essentially serve as staff).

But whether it's one star or the whole Keshik could depend on the circumstances. For example let's say its a Ghost Bear Dominion Leader if that person is traveling from a border world to Alshain, deeper into safer space, then that's a different circumstance than a Khan traveling from the capital world to a world closer to a border (and threats). They evaluate the threat level and then decide what to do, whether to take a portion of the Keshik, or all of it.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2023, 07:20:25 by Alan Grant »

phoenixalpha

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #20 on: 30 May 2023, 08:27:06 »
They evaluate the threat level and then decide what to do, whether to take a portion of the Keshik, or all of it.

I am guessing that a senior Clan leader would be travelling with at least the full Keshik because of security issues. My thoughts is that it's SOP to bring the full Keshik if not more. The senior leader is going to be on a big ass drop ship anyhow so its probably going to have enough space at least for said Keshik.

Much in the same way current leaders travel with a big security detail irrespective because the security detail say so. They dont want to lose their prime asset in an unfortunate turn of events just because there weren't enough warm bodies in between their asset and danger.

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #21 on: 30 May 2023, 12:43:22 »
I am guessing that a senior Clan leader would be travelling with at least the full Keshik because of security issues. My thoughts is that it's SOP to bring the full Keshik if not more. The senior leader is going to be on a big ass drop ship anyhow so its probably going to have enough space at least for said Keshik.

Much in the same way current leaders travel with a big security detail irrespective because the security detail say so. They dont want to lose their prime asset in an unfortunate turn of events just because there weren't enough warm bodies in between their asset and danger.


I think @Alan's response of "it depends" really is the best. Pre-Wars of Reaving (as @tassa_kay pointed out), when the Clans were more materiel and personnel rich, the keshik was fairly large, a small sized Galaxy. Typically the command keshik had its own dedicated WarShip, which included full aerospace, dropship, omnimech, and elemental units.


I would imagine - given Clanner obsession with not wasting anything - it probably wouldn't be SOP to mobilize the entire keshik just to escort the Khan. Full mobilization probably only happened for ceremonial show of force or if the leadership was traveling to a system outside of or at the edge of their operational zone.


Chances are if the Khan is in Clan-space and just going to the Hall of Khans on Strana Mechty or walking around their homeworld, they would probably only be escorted by a couple of elementals. And I think that Clan honor plays a role too. No Clan would "jump" another Clan's Khan without demanding some form of Trial and Khans are themselves Bloodnamed formidable opponents.

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #22 on: 30 May 2023, 22:49:47 »
My guess is you don't get knocked down to Join the Keshik so much as you take the transfer instead of a promotion or stay in the Keshik to skip a promotion.

Plain Point-Warriors are all likely to be Vets at worst more likely Elite in skills.


As for the size, I think every clan runs from a Trinary to a Cluster per Keshik....  1-6 Trinaries would be the norm.
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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #23 on: 31 May 2023, 10:23:15 »
I can't recall specific instances, but I know I've seen examples of warriors who took a lesser rank to get a more desirable unit, whether that was a specific cluster/galaxy, front line vs second line, or even keshik vs non keshik. Besides, with the Clan system of Trials, getting your foot in the door of the unit, and then Trialing for higher rank(s) is very possible.
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phoenixalpha

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #24 on: 31 May 2023, 10:44:05 »
I would say that it depends on the warrior as to whether or not they want to be in a front line unit that regularly sees combat.

For example - young go getters that want to make a mark will be looking out for units (be it front line or garrison units) that see combat regularly so that they can gain skills and get noticed and maybe climb a rung or two on the rank structure. Middle of the road warriors who have seen a few knockdown battles and maybe have been assigned to a front line Galaxy, maybe a Star Commander or Captain might want to see less combat and more stability to make sure they protect what they have gained over the years. Warriors that have been in uniform for a few more years will know that they aren't as fast or active as they were and want to sit on a cushy assignment somewhere in the middle of nowhere where things are quiet and no one wants to shake the tree overmuch even if it is a 2nd line unit.

I would say that a Keshik is where you go when you are top of the league and trusted to be a solid, solid team player and you can maybe look for some stability and not have the constant hassle of trials every month. Maybe transfer out in a while to a command rank somewhere comfy with the favours from people you know and the prestige of being in a Keshik so you can maybe bring some of the warriors under you to a better standard than they could be.

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #25 on: 31 May 2023, 11:38:46 »
I would say that it depends on the warrior as to whether or not they want to be in a front line unit that regularly sees combat.

For example - young go getters that want to make a mark will be looking out for units (be it front line or garrison units) that see combat regularly so that they can gain skills and get noticed and maybe climb a rung or two on the rank structure. Middle of the road warriors who have seen a few knockdown battles and maybe have been assigned to a front line Galaxy, maybe a Star Commander or Captain might want to see less combat and more stability to make sure they protect what they have gained over the years. Warriors that have been in uniform for a few more years will know that they aren't as fast or active as they were and want to sit on a cushy assignment somewhere in the middle of nowhere where things are quiet and no one wants to shake the tree overmuch even if it is a 2nd line unit.

I would say that a Keshik is where you go when you are top of the league and trusted to be a solid, solid team player and you can maybe look for some stability and not have the constant hassle of trials every month. Maybe transfer out in a while to a command rank somewhere comfy with the favours from people you know and the prestige of being in a Keshik so you can maybe bring some of the warriors under you to a better standard than they could be.

Some Keshiks might be like that. The Ghost Bear Loremaster Laurie Tseng had a Keshik full of her lifelong friends. In that Keshik and under that specific leader particularly I can see what you describe.

But others, like the Turkina Keshik in the 3050s, (FM: CC), are specifically noted as a top assignment, whose members routinely go on to command their own Clusters and Galaxies. Also, even though they see less active combat, their combat record is considered to be unparalleled within the Clan. As a kind of poster unit for the Clan they also always stick to Zell and contain no freeborns. So the Turkina Keshik reads like a highly elite poster-child unit that is also a political and leadership proving ground for the best-of-the-best before they move up and out to the next phase of their careers. It doesn't sound cushy at all, it sounds cutthroat and ambitious.

Each Keshik really is different, you can read the fluff of two different ones, and walk away with completely different takeaways. It really is remarkable how differently the Keshik concept gets applied with each individual Keshik you read about. The motivations for joining one is equally varied.

If I'm a Bear warrior looking to join Laurie Tseng's Keshik, I may very well be the kind of warrior who is looking for a calmer, steadier existence among some potential lifelong trothkin.

If I'm a Jade Falcon warrior, I want in to the Turkina Keshik because I'm ambitious as heck, and I want that next rung up the ladder, and I want to gain the attention of the Clan leadership, and become one of the Clan "insiders" and join that super exclusive club of the warriors earmarked for greater things.

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #26 on: 31 May 2023, 13:56:18 »
I can't recall specific instances, but I know I've seen examples of warriors who took a lesser rank to get a more desirable unit, whether that was a specific cluster/galaxy, front line vs second line, or even keshik vs non keshik. Besides, with the Clan system of Trials, getting your foot in the door of the unit, and then Trialing for higher rank(s) is very possible.

The best examples I can think of is the WCSB had a Cluster CO or 2 that were offered Galaxy Command in reserve Galaxies & declined.
But those weren't stepping down, just avoiding promotion to a lesser unit.  Not the same scenario & taking a demotion to get into a Keshik.
By the same token, I think the Epsilon CO took it because no one else would, IIRC.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

wantec

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Re: Clan Keshik Ranks
« Reply #27 on: 04 June 2023, 20:52:57 »
Doing something else I stumbled across an example. In Era Report 3145, Hell's Horses Loremaster, Sachiko Ravenwater was a Star Colonel and when the First Horde Cluster was formed she took a demotion to be able to join the cluster.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


 

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