Author Topic: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power  (Read 53317 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #780 on: 24 November 2024, 22:29:43 »
Sorry, should have added this as a response to the French  design comment.  This wasn't meant for the russian ships.

The principle applies regardless of nation or era.  If your potential dance partner knows some of the displayed hardware is just a decoy? they're going to be more, not less, likely to test to see how much of it is phake.  It's human nature.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #781 on: 25 November 2024, 00:42:58 »
I believe the point is to obscure which points have the real item, making it harder to target with an attack rather than to completely obscure the ship.
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phoenixalpha

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #782 on: 25 November 2024, 02:19:09 »
If the French are hiding the capabilities and/or identities of their ships, that is fine and if it makes the enemy guess a second longer about what ship they are facing or what capabilities it has - then thats a win.

Sticking on fake kit to replace damaged or removed equipment is only gonna bite you in the backside once the enemy knows some of your kit is fake and they'll test that assumption at their earliest convenience.

If you dont know what capabilities a ship has you're going to be more cautious. If you think the enemy's capabilities are bluster, you'll be more aggressive

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #783 on: 25 November 2024, 03:00:14 »
There's value in tactical deception such as the French are trying - if you can't easily be sure whether that FREMM out there is the Bretagne, the Languedoc or the Normandie, then you can't be sure if it's three ships showing up occasionally at ports, or one ship burning rubber between sightings. Makes assumptions about satellite an aerial recon capabilities, but worth trying.

Which segues into why the Swedish navy is replacing pennant numbers with low-vis barcodes. Why are they doing that? So they can scan-de-navy-in!
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phoenixalpha

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #784 on: 25 November 2024, 07:11:59 »
Which segues into why the Swedish navy is replacing pennant numbers with low-vis barcodes. Why are they doing that? So they can scan-de-navy-in!

*stöna* azn

Sabelkatten

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #785 on: 25 November 2024, 16:25:27 »
(If you're just making the noise "groan" would be "stön". "Stöna" is descriptive. This has been your unscheduled Swedish grammar lesson. Any sanity lost is non-refundable.)

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #786 on: 29 November 2024, 05:02:25 »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nz-navy-ship-crashes-and-sinks-while-on-autopilot/ar-AA1uXI8T

"ANew Zealand navy ship crashed into a coral reef and sank last month because the ship's crew had mistakenly left the vessel on autopilot, a government inquiry has found.

Crew members of the HMNZS Manawanui had thought the ship was under manual control while sailing in Samoan waters."

That's a lot of careers over with...

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #787 on: 29 November 2024, 07:21:30 »
Yep!  Or least permanently beached.

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #788 on: 29 November 2024, 19:02:25 »
New Zealand's navy is small one. The ship lost has done a lot damage to the service.  That was multiple purpose vessel, which took bit get funded.  These people will likely either be drummed out put on trial for competency.

I wonder if they'll manage to get funding for a replacement,  probably could be leased ship vs new build.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #789 on: 29 November 2024, 19:20:23 »
You'd think it would have a big honking indicator or three that autopilot was engaged.

Also, does autopilot on a ship override manual inputs?
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #790 on: 30 November 2024, 04:54:54 »
Apparently it does, since the crew couldn't figure out why the ship wasn't responding to manual input.  Autopilot must have locked out the steering authority.

Cannonshop

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #791 on: 30 November 2024, 08:52:16 »
Apparently it does, since the crew couldn't figure out why the ship wasn't responding to manual input.  Autopilot must have locked out the steering authority.

I guess I'm weird for wondering why they'd install something like that on purpose.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #792 on: 30 November 2024, 09:04:12 »
I can only imagine the lack of manual override wasn't on purpose...

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #793 on: 30 November 2024, 10:13:11 »
There is a button to turn off the autopilot, but first they would have to realise that autopilot is on.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #794 on: 30 November 2024, 10:41:36 »
Seems weird that using the manual controls doesn't automatically disengage the autopilot.  You'd think that in the event of a sudden emergency, you wouldn't want to have to waste time disengaging the autopilot manually.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #795 on: 30 November 2024, 14:28:39 »
In aircraft this feature is due to fear of accidental button push, that pilot was not aware of, turning off the autopilot and leading to accident, I presume same design philosophy was used on ships
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #796 on: 30 November 2024, 15:28:18 »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nz-navy-ship-crashes-and-sinks-while-on-autopilot/ar-AA1uXI8T

"ANew Zealand navy ship crashed into a coral reef and sank last month because the ship's crew had mistakenly left the vessel on autopilot, a government inquiry has found.

Crew members of the HMNZS Manawanui had thought the ship was under manual control while sailing in Samoan waters."

That's a lot of careers over with...

Given the small size of the NZ navy, that would be proportionate to the sudden decrease in available billets :P

That said, the final cause might be failure to disengage the autopilot, but the bigger picture seems to be a total failure of CRM and navigation.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2024, 17:08:24 by chanman »

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #797 on: 30 November 2024, 15:58:08 »
If the crew failed know where the override was for the autopilot or how engage it, then there was failure of training on top incompetence, this case trainers..

I was in the naval service, while not the high tech service of today.  However, my later careers for a company I was employed as floater  doubled as trainer.  When someone evacuated a position when it wasn't possible previous person to pass on what they knew, the floater was there to guide next person in their job.  To me there was failure in institution of the Navy to properly train their people.   They're small service, I'm not military trainer by any stretch of the imagination.  However, it's mission critical to make sure individuals who operate multi-million dollar (pound..) piece machinery know what and how their operation works.   You can out source the maintenance but not the operation itself.

These people lost the ship and were left rudderless.  I can only say from my point view, it's the Captain who is responsible to make sure their people are trained.  If there big gap in training, they should been rather loud to his bosses. 
« Last Edit: 02 December 2024, 05:55:36 by Wrangler »
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Cannonshop

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #798 on: 01 December 2024, 00:10:45 »
If the crew failed know where the override was for the autopilot or how engage it, then there was failure of training on top incompetence, this case trainers..

I was in the naval service, while not the high tech service of today.  However, my later careers for a company I was employed as floater  doubled as trainer.  When someone evacuated a position when it wasn't possible previous person to pass on what they knew, the floater was there to guide next person in their job.  To me there was failure in institution of the Navy to properly train their people.   They're small service, I'm not military trainer by any stretch of the imagination.  However, it's mission critical to make sure individuals who operate multi-million dollar (pound..) piece machinery know what and how their operation works.   You can out source the maintenance but not the operation itself.

These people lost the ship and were left to rudderless.  I can only say from my point view, it's the Captain who is responsible to make sure their people are trained.  If there big gap in training, they should been rather loud to his bosses.

I think the mark of 'training issues' and maybe 'procedure issues' is bigger even than not knowing where the override is-they didn't know the system was engaged, or they were so used to the system being active they didn't know they needed to disengage it until it was too late.

either one of those is even MORE questionable than you're suggesting, as it reflects on a service that once upon a time was a model of professionalism turning into an amateur shit-show, possibly on an epic scale (what, after all, are the odds of an entire command staff and crew being blissfully unaware of this until the accident happens?)

While the ecological consequences aren't up there with Exxon Valdez, the lack of professionalism, knowledge of the vessel, or maintenance of critical systems is, well...potentially much more serious given the role navies play in that part of the world-the multitude of roles naval personnel play in that part of the world.

An old guy I worked with at Boeing was old-school navy and he had a certain attitude about 'accidents'.  "THere are no Accidents, there is only Negligence."

He explained to me that in any accident investigation, whether it's mechanical or pilot related causes, the dig will tend to show that someone in a position of responsibility or access prior, didn't do their job, and that failure led directly to the accident or incident in question.

Now, this was a guy who was in Naval Aviation longer, at the time, than I'd been alive and he was working in civilian aviation as his 'supplementary retirement' so you can take that as you will, but the situation described here suggests multiple paths of negligence probably resulted in this accident, with only the Captain of the vessel being at the final straw to break the back of the camel, not the originating failure.

I suspect it begins at a level best covered by Rule 4, so I won't bring that up except that it likely contributed to a series of failures in chains of command including personnel assignment,  evaluation, training, and maintenance both, along with more obvious commnand level mistakes including supplementary training and drill.  This covers everything from how discipline and operations were conducted, to navigation, to ship's systems and maintenance, to likely crew proficiency as a direct result, and possibly morale.

Soldiers or Sailors, in other words, who hate their officers so much they literally only do what they're told even  when they know it's not what's necessary.

Such conditions don't manifest in a vacuum.  Officers who cannot lead do not get promoted in healthy organizations without intervention from higher up, whether it's nepotism or ignorance, someone promoted and assigned those officers without properly verifying they could and would build or maintain proficient crews.

In ground combat, this is like hiring a precision rifleman who doesn't know how to clean his rifle-or chooses not to out of laziness or dislike of the smell of gun oil.

An officer's weapon, after all, is not his (or her) sidearm, it's the personnel they command-failure to maintain that is failure outright in the role.

That kind don't happen without someone noticing long before tehy're given sixty five million dollars in equipment as their responsibility.


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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #799 on: 01 December 2024, 11:31:12 »
"THere are no Accidents, there is only Negligence."


Having been part of the shooting community years ago and seen the change from "Accidental Discharge" to "Negligent Discharge" I concur with that.  Also currently part of a airline operation and just gone through training, I can see how many accidents can be traced back to some sort of Negligence. Either in training or operations.

Cannonshop

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #800 on: 01 December 2024, 12:40:36 »
Having been part of the shooting community years ago and seen the change from "Accidental Discharge" to "Negligent Discharge" I concur with that.  Also currently part of a airline operation and just gone through training, I can see how many accidents can be traced back to some sort of Negligence. Either in training or operations.
'

A lot of times, you find growing negligence problems in organizations that have had limited to no serious challenges for several years running.  Complacency, in other words, but sometimes, it's ignorance mixed WITH complacency.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #801 on: 01 December 2024, 20:11:05 »
ROKS Jeongjo the Great just commissioned. The first of three Batch II KDX-III destroyers, the Batch II ships retain only 48 Mk. 41 VLS cells, replacing the rest with two indigenous VLS systems (16x K-VLS 24x K-VLS II)



I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #802 on: 01 December 2024, 20:15:09 »
Nice looking Korean Ships.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #803 on: 02 December 2024, 06:00:39 »
I know pennant numbers aren't as important as they used to be, I find a guided missile Destroyer with pennant 995 reminds me of the Kidd Class DDGs UN Navy once operated.  I feel old  :tongue:
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #804 on: 07 December 2024, 19:41:22 »
The Italian LHD Trieste has been commissioned today, so the old aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi's days are now numbered. 

I'm not sure if a LHD is good replacement for a dedicated aircraft carrier. I know Navies need flexibility given how expensive ships can be.
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #805 on: 07 December 2024, 20:42:24 »
LHD Trieste and  aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibald docked together on a foggy day.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #806 on: 07 December 2024, 21:10:07 »
Trieste is a 38,000 metric ton ship while Guiseppe Garibaldi maxed out at 14,150 metric tons. Italy also has the carrier Cavour at 27,000 tons.

Considering the Italian Navy has no plans to have a CATOBAR carrier, the LHD as a part of the fleet makes a great deal of sense. LHD and LPD ships are popular because of the extensive utility in operations other than war.
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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #807 on: 07 December 2024, 22:05:58 »
it's got a ramp, so i'm guessing it'll be flying some fixed wing in its airgroup. any idea what model of aircraft they're going to use?

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #808 on: 07 December 2024, 22:12:23 »
it's got a ramp, so i'm guessing it'll be flying some fixed wing in its airgroup. any idea what model of aircraft they're going to use?

It's always Harriers and/or F-35Bs for modern straight decked flat tops

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Re: Naval Pictures X: Underway on Nuclear Power
« Reply #809 on: 07 December 2024, 22:42:43 »
What I've read Trieste is to act as secondary carrier for the Navy's fixed wing VTOL aircraft aka Harriers and if it's flight deck has been reinforced for F-35Bs.  I haven't read anything that suggest it has, but this is a military ship and somethings don't necessary get advertised.   However, it's supposed to be generally used as a gator freighter unless the Cavour is unavailable. 
« Last Edit: 08 December 2024, 19:21:09 by Wrangler »
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