What would you argue to be the most illogical decision made by an IS Leader?

[BrianDavion]

It was actually the same thing Hanse had in mind, in this case an heir with a Marik last name on the throne instead of a Davion one. This is why there are arguments in other threads that the peace proposal was a faux act.

except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.
The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans)  if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way

[Minemech]

except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.
The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans)  if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way

That was the plan, Melissa would marry Janos' designated heir in an arranged marriage and their heir would hold both thrones. The authors somewhat tried to excuse her action through a monetary policy issue, but even that was a logical proposal.

 EDIT: To bring in the logic, in royal politics, the outside party who ascends is the consort, so Thomas Marik would have been the Archon Consort, and their child could ascend to the throne if approved by the Estates General. In the League, Melissa would have become the Duchess of Marik, and be plausibly allowed to be elected as Captain-General in an interesting twist (Which obviously would not happen).

[Orwell84]

I wouldn't say that they had no animosity. John actually MEANT IT when he declared himself First Lord. Since everyone else also declared themselves First Lord, he has beef with everyone.

Was there any confirmed explanation other than this put forth for BRASS RING? The Davion Handbook speculates that he wanted an 'indirect' victory over Kurita by triumphing on Hesperus II but even if the AFFS had succeeded what kind of morale boost would have been gained? "Hooray, my soldiers, we did what the snakes couldn't do on some distant planet in another realm! Oh and by the way, our counterattack on Cartago was smashed, the First Prince nearly killed, and we've been ordered to fall back again."

except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.
The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans)  if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way

Good points, and to many in the FedSuns VSD sure did seem more Lyran than one of their own. I did find it odd, though, that the national map color for the FedCom seems to be the same as the one for the FedSuns. Or was that just out-of-universe?

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Haha, well technically a VSD sits on the throne of the 3rd Star League, and has his sights on Tharkad lol. Katherine's insurance / redundancy plan

[Minemech]

Was there any confirmed explanation other than this put forth for BRASS RING? The Davion Handbook speculates that he wanted an 'indirect' victory over Kurita by triumphing on Hesperus II but even if the AFFS had succeeded what kind of morale boost would have been gained? "Hooray, my soldiers, we did what the snakes couldn't do on some distant planet in another realm! Oh and by the way, our counterattack on Cartago was smashed, the First Prince nearly killed, and we've been ordered to fall back again."

It would have forced both the Commonwealth and the Combine to react. If it had played out as he desired, they both might have lost far more troops than they had planned to expend there. The League would be the wildcard. It also could have dealt long term damage to the Commonwealth.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.

Can you find even one time that he's called Victor Steiner? Because he's called Victor Davion all the time, including in FM:ComStar, a report which Victor himself was the overall editor of. Victor was also raised with the hope he would be someone with enough brains to understand more than "shoot" and "gun" and that didn't work out either so maybe he has Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans)  if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way

The Sarna March was Hanse buying himself a PS5 and telling Melissa she could watch him play it. If Hanse was actually going to do something that benefitted the Lyran state, he should have staged a big liberation campaign in Skye and Tamar.

Furthermore, Hanse wasn't patient enough to actually let Katrina's plan of pushing out old officers play out, he just assigned everyone a Davion "advisor" and turned it into a cultural wedge issue. The second it went from "military alliance" to something more, they doomed the plan because now you need to reconcile questions like "what is the basic role of government?" which the two states are so far apart on that they're fundamentally incompatible.

[Metallgewitter]

Actually the Lyrans liberated a lot of planets in 'Operation Götterdämmerung'. And thanks to Frederick Steiner Katrina managed to stop Theodore's counter attack into the underdefended Isle of Skye. The main problem here was of course the formation of the Rasalhague Republic which forced the Lyrans to sacrifice the planets they had payed for in blood years earlier lest they create a new partisan front in their own borders.

[Minemech]

 It should be remembered that in the early 31st century, the CCAF, FWLM and LCAF were all seeing improvements in performance.

[Middcore]

Actually the Lyrans liberated a lot of planets in 'Operation Götterdämmerung'.

This is true. Part of why I harp on Hanse choosing to go after the Confederation in the 4th SW being a mistake. The Elsies accomplished a lot basically on their own, imagine if Hanse hadn't passed up the chance to finally wage a coordinate squeeze-play campaign against his and House Steiner's most hated enemy and to seek personal revenge against Max Liao instead.

[Cannonshop]

This is true. Part of why I harp on Hanse choosing to go after the Confederation in the 4th SW being a mistake. The Elsies accomplished a lot basically on their own, imagine if Hanse hadn't passed up the chance to finally wage a coordinate squeeze-play campaign against his and House Steiner's most hated enemy and to seek personal revenge against Max Liao instead.

We always forget the externalities and other conditions that influence the decision making.  The CapCon tried to sponsor a coup inside the Fedsuns, and did so via the Hasek-Davion branch of Hanse's over-sized family.

he kinda had to do something about that, the FedSuns looks, at surface, like a monolith, but it's got a history as rife with civil wars as the worst of the Free Worlds League, only those civil wars are family fights...as in fights between members of the Davion family, the FedSuns is less centralized than it might first appear as well-there's only so long Hanse could sit on the Haseks or the Sandovals before they become a threat to his rule.

IOW domestic politics may have had as much to do with the 4th Succession War, as anything Mad Max did, and influenced the war of '39 as well.

[Middcore]

We always forget the externalities and other conditions that influence the decision making.  The CapCon tried to sponsor a coup inside the Fedsuns, and did so via the Hasek-Davion branch of Hanse's over-sized family.

he kinda had to do something about that, the FedSuns looks, at surface, like a monolith, but it's got a history as rife with civil wars as the worst of the Free Worlds League, only those civil wars are family fights...as in fights between members of the Davion family, the FedSuns is less centralized than it might first appear as well-there's only so long Hanse could sit on the Haseks or the Sandovals before they become a threat to his rule.

IOW domestic politics may have had as much to do with the 4th Succession War, as anything Mad Max did, and influenced the war of '39 as well.

The CapCon, and by extension Michael, were effectively neutralized by having a Davion agent penetrate the Capellan government and military apparatus at the highest level. If Michael tries to rally support, all Hanse has to do was spill the evidence of Morgan conspiring with the hated Confederation and Michael wouldn't even be able to show his face within his own Capellan March again. As for the Sandovals, the main beef then-Duke Aaron Sandoval had was ignoring the Kurita front to go after the Confederation, so it's spurious to bring them up as a reason why Hanse would choose the Confederation as his target.

Edit: Corrected Michael/Morgan typo

[The Eagle]

The CapCon, and by extension Morgan, were effectively neutralized by having a Davion agent penetrate the Capellan government and military apparatus at the highest level. If Morgan tries to rally support, all Hanse has to do was spill the evidence of Morgan conspiring with the hated Confederation and Morgan wouldn't even be able to show his face within his own Capellan March again. As for the Sandovals, the main beef then-Duke Aaron Sandoval had was ignoring the Kurita front to go after the Confederation, so it's spurious to bring them up as a reason why Hanse would choose the Confederation as his target.

Michael*

[Middcore]

Michael*

Thanks

[MarauderD]

This is true. Part of why I harp on Hanse choosing to go after the Confederation in the 4th SW being a mistake. The Elsies accomplished a lot basically on their own, imagine if Hanse hadn't passed up the chance to finally wage a coordinate squeeze-play campaign against his and House Steiner's most hated enemy and to seek personal revenge against Max Liao instead.

I do think Hanse needed to go after the Confederation.  His intelligence arm had everything in place to make it work.   That being said, my only beef with Hanse is that my heart wanted him to go after the Combine instead.  Instead of carving apart the CC, a combined invasion of the combine in 3028?  I think the Dieron district gets divvied up, and the LC and FS conquer roughly half the Combine.  The drawback, as I play that out in my head, is that when the clans invade, the whole corridor is now in the Lyran Commonwealth.  The clans would carve up the AFFC, never lose at Wolcott, etc. 

So as much as I wish history was different in BattleTech, I can see why it can't be as well.   

[Minemech]

 An invasion of the Draconis Combine would have forced both the Free Worlds League and the Capellan Confederation to go all in. Tragically the cream of the crop of mercenary units were serving the Suns and Commonwealth with the Dragoons having historically constituted an entire front in the 4th.

[Starfury]

Richard Cameron declaring war on the Periphery
Kerensky's Exodus
The War of 3039
The Word of Blake launching the Jihad
The obsession Takashi Kurita had with Wolf's Dragoons
The Wolf's Dragoons allying with Alaric Wolf
Davion's first Invasion into the Taurian Concordat
Case White.
Katherine Steiner Davion's attempt to rule the entire Federated Commonwealth
Devlin Stone's misguided attempts at trying to build a future Star Leauge by making the Republic and the Wolf Empire into a new Hegemony
The multiple rebellions of Skye
Comstar's inability to consider the Word of Blake as a greater threat then the Clans
Whoever decided that Battletech machine guns needed two hundred rounds of ammo per ton....

[Metallgewitter]

Richard Cameron? You mean Ian Cameron right?

And here is one: Kerensky not abdicating as SLDF Commanding General when he was named Regent for Richard. Like running an army this huge plus ruling an empire of the then  entire known galaxy? Especially when said regent makes it his goal to ply the star lanes instead of ruling on Terra.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Richard Cameron? You mean Ian Cameron right?

Both of them?

Ian did so to unify the Star League.

Richard did so to put down the rebellion.

[Metallgewitter]

Richard didn't even start a war with the Periphery. That was all Kerensky's doing. And the Periphery started their Freedom War themselves, the SLDF reacted to it. Richard was just the first Lord at that time

[Metallgewitter]

Just thought of something: Kerensky not going after amaris immediately after reaching a peace agreement with the other Periphery states. Sure he didn't know how potent the remaining defenses were but Amaris fleet was basically gone and the Space defense over Terra was also completly destroyed. While reorganizing the survivng SLDf armies would probably take a lot of time Amaris would also have way less time to form solid defenses.

[VanVelding]

I feel like some of this is armchair quarterbacking. "Illogical" means they knew everything they needed to and still made the wrong choice.

I think that Hanse and Katrina were pretty damned close to destroying the Capellan Confederation. Permanently. They leveraged all of their strengths into a war that was designed and--save for ComStar intervention--would have permanently destroyed the Capellan Confederation. Those advantages were fleeting--mole in the CC upper ranks, insane leader, black boxes--and the destruction of the CapCon would have put three great houses under Federation Commonwealth rule.

They could have stymied the Capellans and went all-in on the Combine, but I just don't see the, frankly, functional Draconis Combine state collapsing and yielding as many worlds as the Capellans.

[Church14]

Devlin Stone's misguided attempts at trying to build a future Star Leauge by making the Republic and the Wolf Empire into a new Hegemony

Stone’s what?

You know the Wolf Empire came after Stone was frozen, right?

[Hellraiser]

but I just don't see the, frankly, functional Draconis Combine state collapsing and yielding as many worlds as the Capellans.

There was talk of Ardan's front possibly striking as deep as Luthien, but really, I find his forces could have been used better to just take what you needed more than anything..
The entire 39 war targeted more than I thought logical.
Restore the 3025 border, snatch the "southern" 1/2 the Dieron District & maybe pick up the the Spider factory in a Lapida thumb but that would have been plenty.

[The Wobbly Guy]

There was talk of Ardan's front possibly striking as deep as Luthien, but really, I find his forces could have been used better to just take what you needed more than anything..
The entire 39 war targeted more than I thought logical.
Restore the 3025 border, snatch the "southern" 1/2 the Dieron District & maybe pick up the the Spider factory in a Lapida thumb but that would have been plenty.

Essentially it was 'slice off a bit at a time' or 'smash them into the ground'. Given the assumptions the FC was working from, obviously they felt they could pull off the latter.

[Templar87]

Harrison Davion continuing to draw down the AFFS in the face of Capellan revanchism and Kuritan invasions eating Tancredi IV and most of the Bryceland and Bremond PDZs.

[BrianDavion]

Harrison Davion continuing to draw down the AFFS in the face of Capellan revanchism and Kuritan invasions eating Tancredi IV and most of the Bryceland and Bremond PDZs.

that went beyond illogical and into the realm of abject stupidity

[Orwell84]

Harrison Davion continuing to draw down the AFFS in the face of Capellan revanchism and Kuritan invasions eating Tancredi IV and most of the Bryceland and Bremond PDZs.

that went beyond illogical and into the realm of abject stupidity

Totally agree. The fact the Combine continued attacking the Suns even with a supposed 'dove' on Luthien would argue for at least maintaining the AFFS' present force strength. Forget skirmishing in the Draconis Reach, if Harrison wanted longer-term 'peace' with the Combine he ought to have forcibly evicted them from the worlds they'd taken (and, y'know, upheld his duty to his citizens needing liberation).

Heck, unless the Combine publicly renounced its stated intention to rule humanity and actively proved it, any neighbouring ruler should conduct themselves accordingly.

Conspiracy theory: Devlin Stone subtly encouraged Harrison's stupidity hoping it would leave a weakened Suns one day ripe for incorporation into his ROTS. A wacky idea but not the dumbest thing Stone ever did.

[Templar87]

Totally agree. The fact the Combine continued attacking the Suns even with a supposed 'dove' on Luthien would argue for at least maintaining the AFFS' present force strength. Forget skirmishing in the Draconis Reach, if Harrison wanted longer-term 'peace' with the Combine he ought to have forcibly evicted them from the worlds they'd taken (and, y'know, upheld his duty to his citizens needing liberation).

Heck, unless the Combine publicly renounced its stated intention to rule humanity and actively proved it, any neighbouring ruler should conduct themselves accordingly.

Conspiracy theory: Devlin Stone subtly encouraged Harrison's stupidity hoping it would leave a weakened Suns one day ripe for incorporation into his ROTS. A wacky idea but not the dumbest thing Stone ever did.

Well, it's certainly the kind of lunatic plot some BTech rulers would try, but it doesn't fit with what we know; notably, the IC foreword of Objectives FS has David Lear remarking to Stone that "The security of the Federated Suns is in our best interests". And, well, if Harrison was a patsy of Stone, he was a pretty damn bad one considering that Harrison apparently didn't ever tell the Republic what the Victoria War uncovered about the extent of Capellan rearmament (never told anyone in the AFFS command structure, comes to that; and from Julian's commentary in Sword of Sedition apparently went to extensive (and successful) lengths to bury that information); if he had, they wouldn't have been blindsided by it - twice.

[BrianDavion]

yeaaah Harrison was a weak ruler who clearly put ideology above effectiveness, he was basicly the reverse of Hanse Davion (who was a pragmatic intelligent ruler) the best part about Sword of Damocles is the reveal  that Julian Davion seems to be wanting to emulate Hanse, and not his mentor.

[Metallgewitter]

That seems to be symbolic of Fed Suns leaders: whenever a period of peace devolves into a time of war their leaders are caught napping and then make dumb decisions. Just like the Fedsuns after the collapse of the Star League. Though oddly enough in Sword of Sedition Harrison is depicted as someone who can actually see a bigger picture. Might have been the very long and painful learning process. But letting a state that prides itself on the military become even worse then the Lyrans is something to behold