Author Topic: What would you argue to be the most illogical decision made by an IS Leader?  (Read 10930 times)

The Wobbly Guy

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So... we are agreed? That the single most illogical, stupid decision made by an IS leader was the extended drawdown of the AFFS by Harrison Davion in the interregnum between the jihad and the fall of the HPG network.

BTW, what's the collective name for the conflicts engulfing the Inner Sphere after the HPGs fell? The Fifth Succession War? Certainly seems like it.

Minemech

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 The Clan invasion had the bizarre effect of having Successor Lords claim that they were no longer Successor Lords, making the term dated. Harrison was sadly deep into that mindset.

Templar87

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That seems to be symbolic of Fed Suns leaders: whenever a period of peace devolves into a time of war their leaders are caught napping and then make dumb decisions. Just like the Fedsuns after the collapse of the Star League. Though oddly enough in Sword of Sedition Harrison is depicted as someone who can actually see a bigger picture. Might have been the very long and painful learning process. But letting a state that prides itself on the military become even worse then the Lyrans is something to behold


The thing is, we're seeing Harrison from the perspective, in Sword of Sedition, of people who don't know he's pretty thoroughly done them over. And, even without looking at other sources, SoS does not paint a very flattering picture of Harrison as far as strategic judgment (he apparently having not been paying attention to the constant Capellan agitation over demanding the "return" of Chesterton) or adeptness at rule (despite his intent to declare Julian his heir, he apparently was doing nothing to actually prepare this, or set things up so that it would be in motion if anything happened to him; I'm not even sure he told anyone aside from Caleb (Aaron Sandoval at least seems to've figured it out for himself)).


It also doesn't paint a positive picture of the AFFS's state of readiness, considering that a strategically critical world dangerously close to the Capellan border, which has been attacked repeatedly within living memory (Kathil) apparently has no, or woefully inadequate numbers of, staff-level engineering officers (the people whose job it is to supervise things like, for e.g., newly-built defensive works being laid out properly) in the garrison thereof. Like, it shows that Julian hasn't neglected any part of his military education, but he shouldn't have needed to intervene to point out - after the concrete had been poured and was mostly set - that a bunker - part of a critical defensive work around a major target - had been positioned out of mutual support range of its flanking bunkers, and as such needed to be torn down and redone in the right place.
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Metallgewitter

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Harrison was using the visit to Terra to introduce Julian as at the very least his right hand man and possible replacement. Of yourse not including others into his plans was a major misstep. As you said Aaron who is very capable in seeing the bigger picture had an inkling that Julian was more then just the Prince's champion but other then that no one seemed to see it (well except Gavin I suppose)

What we do know is that the Fed suns set aside some military hardware (in SoS Julian mentions how basically every house sret aside perhaps 10% of hardware to the side just to feel safe) but in terms of actual training they fell deep into feudalistic traits while also seeing a rise of social generals something usually only associated with the Commonwealth. Of course even the Republic fell into this trap though perhaps less social generalism but more total disregard for intelligence gathering and drawdown of even elite units. You would think a nation that is the centerpiece of the word "Pax Republicana" keeps a big hammer by the side to enforce said order

Minemech

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 When you look at actions made by the Republic, you have to look at them diachronically. That is, you have to read older actions strictly in the context of their portrayal at the time in real time. The Scorpion Jar and Sword of Sedition did a lot to define the Republic and other powers at the time, but even then, it was relatively undefined and remained malleable. It arguably remained highly malleable to the end as its final portrayal demonstrated.

Colt Ward

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My vote would have been Victor not having someone ready to push Katherine down a flight of stairs on Tharkad.
Colt Ward
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Harrison was using the visit to Terra to introduce Julian as at the very least his right hand man and possible replacement. Of yourse not including others into his plans was a major misstep. As you said Aaron who is very capable in seeing the bigger picture had an inkling that Julian was more then just the Prince's champion but other then that no one seemed to see it (well except Gavin I suppose)

The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison. Dude heard Victor was the Worst Prince and was out to outdo his uncle.


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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Maybe the problem was that there have just been so many leaders in the BTU that are insane that he had trouble noticing it.

Seriously, there have been too many characters in Battletech, especially in the Dark Age, that were crazy.
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Colt Ward

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The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison. Dude heard Victor was the Worst Prince and was out to outdo his uncle.

He already knew, lol.  It was why Julian was brought in.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Metallgewitter

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The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison. Dude heard Victor was the Worst Prince and was out to outdo his uncle.

I think that was the plan all along as he couldn't father another child with his beloved wife. And keeping a close eye on Julian and even making him the youngest Prince's champion were probablky all steps to ensure Julian was ready for the job. But as others have mentioned keeping this plan secret also backfired heavily. I thinkl a Federated Suns under Julian's control after Harrisons untimely death wouldn't have taken the beating it got under Caleb. The only thing Calbe did right was the reactivation of the training battalions ensuring that the avaliable talent pool for Mechwarriors expanded

Templar87

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The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison.

Oh, he'd known about Caleb's mental instability for sixteen years by Sword of Sedition (Caleb was diagnosed c. 3118, when he went into AFFS training, per Fortress Republic - Julian remembers meeting Caleb for the first time when he was eleven, so c. 3118, and "shortly before" Caleb went for training, in Sword of Sedition), and that it's not a condition that's going to get better.  But, as seems to be typical with Harrison, rather than make a choice between actually getting Caleb help and trying to teach him art of rule, or formally disinheriting him and declaring Julian his heir, he buried uncomfortable facts, waffled, vacillated, and in the end got the worst of both worlds.

Harrison was using the visit to Terra to introduce Julian as at the very least his right hand man and possible replacement. Of yourse not including others into his plans was a major misstep. As you said Aaron who is very capable in seeing the bigger picture had an inkling that Julian was more then just the Prince's champion but other then that no one seemed to see it (well except Gavin I suppose)

I don't disagree that was his intent, but it was very much too little, too late, because Harrison didn't do anything else to make sure Julian was set up to take over if anything happened to him. And if he's starting the process of doing so that late - well, I agree it's in character for Harrison, given his apparent refusal to make a decision unless cornered like a rat in a trap, but it's also a profound abrogation of his responsibilities as a ruler.

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What we do know is that the Fed suns set aside some military hardware (in SoS Julian mentions how basically every house sret aside perhaps 10% of hardware to the side just to feel safe) but in terms of actual training they fell deep into feudalistic traits while also seeing a rise of social generals something usually only associated with the Commonwealth.

Not just that, Harrison and Yvonne very deliberately crippled Mechwarrior and aerospace pilot training for the AFFS, per FM 3145;

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Raising trained MechWarriors have become a critical issue for the Federated Suns in the last two years. The post-Jihad disarmament saw the Suns slide back towards its pseudo-feudal roots, with the few open ’Mech slots in the AFFS filled mostly by scions of the established MechWarrior families. If your last name was Zibler, Dixon, Watters, or any variation of the March leadership you could be assured training as a MechWarrior, no matter how poor your skill might be. And if neither of your parents was a distinguished warrior, then the chances of receiving a coveted BattleMech assignment were vanishingly low. By the time of the Blackout, the pipeline for new recruits had slowed to a trickle. After Grey Monday, First Prince Harrison’s attempts to keep the peace kept MechWarrior training still constrained. It was only with Caleb Davion’s rise to the throne that academies were encouraged to increase their class sizes to help fill the rapidly expanding AFFS. It was also during Caleb’s reign that the Training Battalions were reestablished, after more than fifty years’ absence.
[...]
The Suns’ aerospace service faces equally grim prospects. Never fully recovered from the Jihad, aerospace training in the AFFS has barely kept pace with the demand 
for quality pilots.

As well, we have Harrison - in one of those fits of whimsy, like cozying up to the Ravens, that proved disastrous for the Suns - decommissioning "most" of the federal guard 'Mech forces, which could - if he'd actually given a damn about doing his job properly - have been a good way to maintain reserves of trained mechwarriors and maintain the infrastructure necessary to expand the AFFS at need.

(honestly, I find myself increasingly coming to the view that, while personally reprehensible in many ways and not a good First Prince, Caleb wasn't a particularly bad one either - something that ER 3145 supports, given its description of Caleb's record in command as "competent, if not spectacular" - and mostly just had the bad luck to be in charge when the bill came due for Yvonne and Harrison's incompetence)
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- Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne, Vicomte de Turenne, Marshal of France, 1641

Metallgewitter

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I wouldn't say that Yvonne was incompetent as Operation Matador showed that she was at least willing to wield her military if needed. The problem was probably more her husband who knowingly or unknowingly instigated a civil war in his own March leading to a more independent streak in the March Lords.

But yeah their adherence to Stone's swords to plowshares policy definetly hurt the Suns. Though I think when you say decommisioning of federal Mech rewgiments I think you mean the National Guards of each planet right? I haven't seen a specific notion that line regiments were drawn down during the reign of Yvonne and Harrison. What makes Caleb so bad is that he wrecked the entire command structure of the AFFS. Erik and Julian basically had to begin from scratch (though one could argue that was a blessing in disguise) as Caleb took the AFFS high command with him into the grave. Being a somewhat competent commander doesn't help when your military is crippled on the bureaucratic level

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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He already knew, lol.  It was why Julian was brought in.

Sure took him a long time to act on it, which is even worse. It's not like you're the Lyran Commonwealth and you can tell yourself the Estates General will "definitely" reject him.


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Metallgewitter

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Sure took him a long time to act on it, which is even worse. It's not like you're the Lyran Commonwealth and you can tell yourself the Estates General will "definitely" reject him.

Do the Estates General actually have the power to reject a candidate for the throne? I thought they were nothing more then an advisory council for the Archon.

That brings me to another question: do the Houses actually have some form of pschological tests for the heirs when they become adults or rather when their time draws closer? I can think of a few leaders that should have been disqualified immediately due to their mental state.

Heck that might be the best argument to actually introduce term limits into the IlClan. The Republic had term limits (though only used once because Stone was a special case and Levin had to preside over an ongoing conflict that overshadowed the Republic). The only other states that have actually terms are smaller Periphery states

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Do the Estates General actually have the power to reject a candidate for the throne? I thought they were nothing more then an advisory council for the Archon.

The Estates General ratifies the person the Archon nominates as Archon-Designate. They haven't refused a sitting Archon the nomination, but if there was some kind of deeply dysfunctional relationship between them and the Archon like Alessandro had cultivated, they could. They have more leeway when there's multiple claimants and no nominated successor, then they vote on who is the next Archon. Most recently, Peter Steiner-Davion jumped through this hoop some time between the FCCW sourcebook and Field Manual: Update.


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Templar87

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I wouldn't say that Yvonne was incompetent as Operation Matador showed that she was at least willing to wield her military if needed. The problem was probably more her husband who knowingly or unknowingly instigated a civil war in his own March leading to a more independent streak in the March Lords.


I've got to disagree on MATADOR, because the way Yvonne concluded it - backing down in the face of threats of planetary genocide - effectively declared open season on the FS, considering that the Capellans and Kuritans both are perfectly willing to threaten, and as seen in the Victoria War the Capellans at least are wholly willing to fulfil those threats. Although, es, Tancred's time as Duke of the Draconis March was something of a fiasco (honestly, I don't know why he thought inviting Kuritan troops onto a Draconis March world, in a disaster relief situation he was already handling extremely badly, was a good idea (see: TTS Benet III)).

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But yeah their adherence to Stone's swords to plowshares policy definetly hurt the Suns. Though I think when you say decommisioning of federal Mech rewgiments I think you mean the National Guards of each planet right? I haven't seen a specific notion that line regiments were drawn down during the reign of Yvonne and Harrison.


Yes, I mean the National Guard, and it's not just large-scale units. As far as I can tell, none of the federal guard forces in the FS have any BattleMechs left.


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What makes Caleb so bad is that he wrecked the entire command structure of the AFFS. Erik and Julian basically had to begin from scratch (though one could argue that was a blessing in disguise) as Caleb took the AFFS high command with him into the grave. Being a somewhat competent commander doesn't help when your military is crippled on the bureaucratic level


However, MANDRAGORA, as outlined, while not a particularly great plan, was an adequate one that would have worked, if not for something that Caleb had no means of predicting (the Ravens' backstabbing). I don't think he really deserves criticism for not seeing a genuine bolt from the blue coming. (and, ultimately, Caleb finally started rebuilding work on the AFFS that should have been done decades before he was born, never mind acceded to the throne, and that he did that is the only reason there's a Federated Suns left)
« Last Edit: 22 January 2024, 16:18:06 by Templar87 »
“Keep your feet on the ground, a spare magazine in your pocket, watch your buddy’s back and never, ever give anything but your all!”
–First Prince Andrew Davion
"He who has made no mistakes in war has never made war."
- Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne, Vicomte de Turenne, Marshal of France, 1641

BrianDavion

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Do the Estates General actually have the power to reject a candidate for the throne? I thought they were nothing more then an advisory council for the Archon.

That brings me to another question: do the Houses actually have some form of pschological tests for the heirs when they become adults or rather when their time draws closer? I can think of a few leaders that should have been disqualified immediately due to their mental state.

Heck that might be the best argument to actually introduce term limits into the IlClan. The Republic had term limits (though only used once because Stone was a special case and Levin had to preside over an ongoing conflict that overshadowed the Republic). The only other states that have actually terms are smaller Periphery states

........ Term Limits on.... monarchies? ..... wut?
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Metallgewitter

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........ Term Limits on.... monarchies? ..... wut?

I meant specifically the IlClan which isn't a monarchy but a...oh right, military dictatorship. Never mind then

Church14

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I meant specifically the IlClan which isn't a monarchy but a...oh right, military dictatorship. Never mind then

To be fair, the ilKhan is functionally term limited to serve once. The odds of the ilKhan retiring and then coming back seem… extraordinarily low.

Minemech

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 Khans are not military dictators. That sounds odd, but they are not. The Clans are quite modeled after Sparta.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Because the Clans are a caste-based warrior society, not a military society.
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Church14

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Khans are not military dictators. That sounds odd, but they are not. The Clans are quite modeled after Sparta.

They really are. They are in charge until someone kills them or they quit. They are answerable only to more violence, and their power is functionally limitless if nobody can challenge them and beat them in a trial. Lower castes exercise democracy, but their wishes and decisions take back seat to the whims of the khan.

Seth Ward moved an entire nation while abandoning all those who depended on them.
Alaric did it later and abandoned the empire.
Malvina did it with the falcons.

The setting is filled with dictators, let’s not pretend clans aren’t military dictatorships. It’s actually more an exception than norm in the setting for a nation to have anything resembling a choice in their leaders or for those leaders to be accountable in any way besides assassination

Minemech

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They really are. They are in charge until someone kills them or they quit. They are answerable only to more violence, and their power is functionally limitless if nobody can challenge them and beat them in a trial. Lower castes exercise democracy, but their wishes and decisions take back seat to the whims of the khan.

Seth Ward moved an entire nation while abandoning all those who depended on them.
Alaric did it later and abandoned the empire.
Malvina did it with the falcons.

The setting is filled with dictators, let’s not pretend clans aren’t military dictatorships. It’s actually more an exception than norm in the setting for a nation to have anything resembling a choice in their leaders or for those leaders to be accountable in any way besides assassination
You named two examples that are genuinely abominations. The Wolves are essentially a military caste with slaves at the moment (Those the military absolutely needed, and those conquered), and the Falcons need not be described. That said you are right that they are norms in this period.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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They really are. They are in charge until someone kills them or they quit. They are answerable only to more violence, and their power is functionally limitless if nobody can challenge them and beat them in a trial. Lower castes exercise democracy, but their wishes and decisions take back seat to the whims of the khan.

Seth Ward moved an entire nation while abandoning all those who depended on them.
Alaric did it later and abandoned the empire.
Malvina did it with the falcons.

The setting is filled with dictators, let’s not pretend clans aren’t military dictatorships. It’s actually more an exception than norm in the setting for a nation to have anything resembling a choice in their leaders or for those leaders to be accountable in any way besides assassination

"Kratocrat" is the best word to describe them. Though really it's kind of defeating the purpose since the whole reason we have laws and governments is that we DON'T want to just use a system where you kill anyone who disagrees with you.


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Colt Ward

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Sure took him a long time to act on it, which is even worse. It's not like you're the Lyran Commonwealth and you can tell yourself the Estates General will "definitely" reject him.

No, worse than not acting was the half-arsed nature.

"I know this is a problem, I am going to ready a alternative . . . but the only one I am going to tell is my intel head, for the next decade plus."

I mean, I get why NOT to tell Julian- it is the most logical part of Harrison's lacking plan.  BUT there should have been a declaration of succession- I MEAN FRICKING CRYING OUT LOUD!  The Davions had a claim to the Star League throne that was stymied b/c it was never written down where it could be seen!

I really think this is a problem with 'modern' authors of BT, just as with heirs, a society based on some form of monarchism has an awareness of the succession & its' importance.  The US sort of comes close by general awareness of our temporary king races every 4 years, but it is a whole different beast.

Continuance of government is the only duty governments regularly pursue- for BT national governments, heirs & a clearly delineated line of succession should be pro-forma.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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But enough about how incredibly annoyed I am that Trillian still doesn't have an Archon-Designate...

She doesn't even have to get married or pop out a baby! She can just point at Ludwig! It's the easiest time of any of the five House Lords to name a successor and she hasn't bothered to do it even though her regime is incredibly tenuous!

Sorry, sometimes I get worked up.


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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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To be fair to Trillian, that would require the writers to remember that she actually exists and is capable of doing stuff.  I think it's been at least a decade since that happened.
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Metallgewitter

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Most logical assumption would be that Roderick takes the Commonwealth once Trilian's reign comes to an "unfortunate end".

In terms of ilogical decisions though: the entire League not immediately gunning for the Wolf Empire once they learn from the Dragoons that there is basically no defense left seems rather ilogic for me. While Redemption Rites showed that the solahma can put up spirited defenses most of that is almost a year after the Wolves became IlClan. I know drawing up plans and organizing fleets takes time but considering how weak the empire's defenses were and the other borders were more or less quiet (except the kerfuffle around Bolan) it looks like a wasted opportunity. Then again the Empire's defenses don't look that much stronger now despite the remaining 9 Clusters of mostly green troops

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Most logical assumption would be that Roderick takes the Commonwealth once Trilian's reign comes to an "unfortunate end".

In terms of ilogical decisions though: the entire League not immediately gunning for the Wolf Empire once they learn from the Dragoons that there is basically no defense left seems rather ilogic for me. While Redemption Rites showed that the solahma can put up spirited defenses most of that is almost a year after the Wolves became IlClan. I know drawing up plans and organizing fleets takes time but considering how weak the empire's defenses were and the other borders were more or less quiet (except the kerfuffle around Bolan) it looks like a wasted opportunity. Then again the Empire's defenses don't look that much stronger now despite the remaining 9 Clusters of mostly green troops

If she dies immediately, Roderick would probably be Acting Archon while the EG picks a new Archon, but I don't think it would necessarily be him. There's a lot of branches of the Steiner family and some of them wield a lot of power. And they're more closely related to Trillian than seventh cousin Roderick is, which isn't the factor, but it is a factor.

But the main reason I think it wouldn't be him is that Trillian's whole reign would effectively have no point, if the writer's end goal was "Roderick on the throne." We could have just made Roderick the Archon already. He finished his "I'm not hiding who I am anymore" journey before Melissa died, so the writers easily could have passed the throne to him as her closest living relative, have him be reluctant but accepting the burden of rule because he HAS to. If Trillian just dies and gives the throne back to Roderick, you're getting into shaggy dog territory.

If they had a different relationship dynamic, it might work, but the current status quo doesn't seem like it's catalyzing change in him. Like if Roderick wanted to be really aggressive and Trillian was holding him back, and he either had to learn from her about choosing his battles OR show her he's wrong and grow more assertive, I could see the endgame being him being Archon. But it just seems like an amicable working relationship, without even the underlying tension Peter had when ex-Loyalist Adam was GotA.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2024, 12:04:16 by Caesar Steiner for Archon »


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Church14

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To be fair to Trillian, that would require the writers to remember that she actually exists and is capable of doing stuff.  I think it's been at least a decade since that happened.

I’m expecting her desire to keep that “just in case” strategic reserve to pay off. Wolves expand down the old Falcon OZ and knock on lyrans planets or something like that