Author Topic: What is the issue with Aerospace? Why is it supposedly "unpopular" with players?  (Read 10203 times)

mechasaurus

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I'm waiting to see how aerospace battlefield support is handled in the Mercenaries boxed set.


This.  Also, vehicles, infantry, etc. will be in.  It's supposed to make the game more mech-centric yet still get your minis on the table.  I'm pretty excited about it, but we'll see, I guess.

Charistoph

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I'm waiting to see how aerospace battlefield support is handled in the Mercenaries boxed set.

Aerospace Battlefield Support is already in the new Tukayyid Scenario Pack, Battlemech Manual, and Battlefield Support Cards, along with Minefields and Artillery.  They are very simple with the only way to "fight back" is to have the counter Battlefield Support units.

This.  Also, vehicles, infantry, etc. will be in.  It's supposed to make the game more mech-centric yet still get your minis on the table.  I'm pretty excited about it, but we'll see, I guess.

If you joined the Kickstarter, there's the Open Beta documents.  I haven't had a chance to play with them, but I have read them over.  Infantry sort of work well there, but they have problems in doing Anti-Mech Attacks, and I think the Combat Vehicles are rather neutered pretty bad, though they might be very cheap.  They might last longer than the Aerospace and Artillery options, as I think those are one-use, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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mechasaurus

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If you joined the Kickstarter, there's the Open Beta documents.

Wait, I did, but somehow missed that.  Is it in the folder that the other digital files were in?  I haven't looked in a long time (I pulled down a couple wallpapers, but that's it).

ETA: I just looked in the backers only folder.  It's not there.  The only Beta I see is for Battletech: Aces, which I downloaded.  How do I get it? 
« Last Edit: 05 March 2024, 14:11:03 by mechasaurus »

Kit deSummersville

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For everyone replying to Kit, let's give it another try...

Construction steps for making infantry:
1) Find two consenting adults
2) Turn the lights down low...


I'm glad someone got it.
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ColBosch

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I'm glad someone got it.

*deep sigh*

Wait, I did, but somehow missed that.  Is it in the folder that the other digital files were in?  I haven't looked in a long time (I pulled down a couple wallpapers, but that's it).

ETA: I just looked in the backers only folder.  It's not there.  The only Beta I see is for Battletech: Aces, which I downloaded.  How do I get it? 

If I remember correctly, they were only up for a rather short time for comment and were taken down when the book went to print. I have the files, but I'm waiting for the final printed version before commenting publicly on them.
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paladin2019

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It arguably shouldn't be three different games, only reason to make that conclusion was Fasa couldn't decide which aspect to focus on: air to air? Air to ground? Air control? Fleet combat? Allot of examples of other games pick one, the BT community has a bad habit of saying 'all of the above!'
FASA did make the choice to have fleet combat be a different game.
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DevianID

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The battlemech manual has the non-beta aerospace BSP rules.  As was mentioned, the only way to stop a bombing attack is to have air cover.

However, that is true in total warfare too.  Once the bomber has flown onto the map over a target, there is no way to stop a bombing attack.  The only way to stop them is to have a fighter on the aero map that intercepts the attack before they fly over the ground map.

You can shoot down strike craft, after they have attacked, but since each attack is only usable once in BSP form there is no need.  Its like counterbattery fire for artillery, in the BSP form each artillery attack is one use, so striking back at the artillery isn't needed.  It keeps the artillery nice and simple.

If mercenaries has BSP stats for the aerospace fighters, assuming they are like the vtol and such rules they will have a threshold and destroy TN.  So you'd shoot them and they'd shoot you, and you don't track much besides the end of turn destroy TN.

Charistoph

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Wait, I did, but somehow missed that.  Is it in the folder that the other digital files were in?  I haven't looked in a long time (I pulled down a couple wallpapers, but that's it).

ETA: I just looked in the backers only folder.  It's not there.  The only Beta I see is for Battletech: Aces, which I downloaded.  How do I get it?

There's a link to the DropBox in Update #30.

If I remember correctly, they were only up for a rather short time for comment and were taken down when the book went to print. I have the files, but I'm waiting for the final printed version before commenting publicly on them.

The DropBox link is still active.  It even has a document for Vehicle and Infantry Counters.
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ColBosch

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Ahhh, I didn't check the Dropbox, just the Google Docs folder.
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mechasaurus

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The DropBox link is still active.  It even has a document for Vehicle and Infantry Counters.

Got it!  Thanks!

House Davie Merc

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There's a link to the DropBox in Update #30.

The DropBox link is still active.  It even has a document for Vehicle and Infantry Counters.
Just checked #30. Repeatedly. Didn't see it.

Can anybody give me a better idea what I'm looking for?
I thought #50 was where all the action was and I got all of it,but I'm not seeing this.
Thanks.

Charistoph

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Just checked #30. Repeatedly. Didn't see it.

Can anybody give me a better idea what I'm looking for?
I thought #50 was where all the action was and I got all of it,but I'm not seeing this.
Thanks.

#30 has a link to the announcement, but I guess it's #28 that has the link for V2.
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mechasaurus

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#30 has a link to the announcement, but I guess it's #28 that has the link for V2.

Yes.  It's in the email for #30, which links back to #28.  You have to scroll down.  Below the 8m stretch goal there's a section called 'More from this creator'.  There're two links.  The first is 'Exciting News!' the second is 'Battlefield Support Open Beta V2'.  Click on that and it takes you to the kickstarter page.  If you're logged in, the message for #28 shows up with the dropbox links.

Don't want to say too much, but I'm cautiously optimistic.  Mechs play like Battletech, but it looks like all other assets get Alpha Strikey type cards.  You get tank miniatures on the table, and they move like Battletech, including paying MP for facing changes, but they take damage in a sort of Alpha Strikey way.  So, you get more miniatures on the table without needing simulation level fidelity for the non-mech units.  We'll see how it plays.

Back OT for the aerospace, we'll see how the rules are finally written when it comes out, but it would have been nice if, when designating your hexes for strafing, they'd said something like: put your fighter playing piece in the first hex facing along the designated hexes to let players know where they are.  That way, you could put the couple new fighter figures they've made for the kickstarters on the table, even if only for a few moments (it's an aesthetic thing)!

mbear

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I'm not aware of that fact either (which is admittedly no guarantee of anything).  Offhand I'd guess it's the rumour spiral applied to Randall's casual comment from a half-year ago that aero is being reconsidered.

There's also some comments from Ray in this interview that may be coloring people's perceptions.

But I'd like to specifically call out one thing Ray says in that interview (emphasis mine):

Quote
Sean: Brent also told me we’re going to be seeing more AeroSpace fighters when there’s a product that actually supports them. And he said that you’re really looking for a product to kind of replace AeroTech.

What are you looking for in a new AeroTech game? And do you think the optional Alpha Strike rules are the best we’re going to get for now? Or is there an actual AeroTech game out there just waiting to be found?

Ray: I’ll answer that generally, not specifically; what we’re looking for is a fun game. A fun AeroSpace game. I know there are lots of fans of the existing system. And I can tell you that because I’ve been in the game for almost 40 years and I’ve got the original AeroTech box.

I love AeroSpace, WarShips, DropShips, all that. But we have to step away from the idea that something is untouchable the way that we are with the BattleTech core. Even if we consider that core, people just don’t play it. There are a few hardcore people, but otherwise, people don’t play it.

And it needs to be fun on its own. We can’t just say we need something to support the ground game—we need a fun game in and of itself. A lot goes into producing these minis, and there really is no point if there isn’t a game to play them with.

As far as ground support and integrating AeroSpace, we have the Battlefield Support system, and the response to that has been good. I only say good because a lot of people aren’t aware. It is set up as a separate, optional system right now in the BattleMech Manual, it’s not in any of the old core lines.

the next paragraph

Quote
Ray: So it’s more of we haven’t really moved that to a core system yet but the people who have used it, that’s what most people are looking for as far as getting the AeroSpace involved in supporting the ground game. You know, if you play the old school integrating AeroSpace, they’re on the board for like one turn. They take a shot, they can be shot at, and then they’re gone. And this system just does that and it gets rid of all the keeping track of the secondary game.

To me it sounds like they're trying to use the battlefield support rules to handle the ground support/integrate with BattleMech combat aspect while looking for something else for the "higher level/AeroTech" combat.
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Aotrs Commander

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To me it sounds like they're trying to use the battlefield support rules to handle the ground support/integrate with BattleMech combat aspect while looking for something else for the "higher level/AeroTech" combat.

Frankly, I think that's the only sensible option to model that.

Short of doing what we did with Stargrunt II and my homebrew Silent Death/Fox Two rules at a couple of convention shows before the turn of the millenium; which was to have one starfighter game going on and if a bomber got through, you went to the other table and told the appropriate side they got an airstrike to be used immediately and ignored any timescale differences. (And that only worked because SGII was fully phased and non-simultaneous (i.e. more like the HBS game) than BattleTech's semi-phased structure.) Which obviously requires you to run two seperate games which may or may not overlap any time you want to run airsupport.

House Davie Merc

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Yes.  It's in the email for #30, which links back to #28.  You have to scroll down.  Below the 8m stretch goal there's a section called 'More from this creator'.  There're two links.  The first is 'Exciting News!' the second is 'Battlefield Support Open Beta V2'.  Click on that and it takes you to the kickstarter page.  If you're logged in, the message for #28 shows up with the dropbox links.

Thanks ! I got it now. Hope there aren't any other downloads that I missed from the Kickstarter.

Also I'm surprised at the number of people that I have talked to that seem to agree with my earlier post.

TW is a little heavy for a new players first step out of the box set.
Perhaps it might be better to go back to how it used to be.
A ground level combat book could be that first step outside of the box set
and have Aero be it's own rule book that's added later if/when players want to.
"Surface Combat Compendium"?

RifleMech

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Apologies if this was posted before. The internet has been giving me problems. Anyway, I like the idea of Aerospace and would like to use it more. Unfortunately, the rules seem a bit complex. Velocity and Vectoring have always tripped me up. If I ignore those things, aerospace vs aerospace can be fun. Although the space map being 2D and the air/ground map 3D is confusing.

Aerospace vs ground units is where things fall apart. It just doesn't integrate well with ground units do to the different rules used. Aerospace operate under one set of rules and ground units operate under different rules depending on whether or not they're dropping. If feels like I'm trying to pound a square peg into a round hole with a feather pillow. It ends up not being fun. There's got to be better integration.

I also miss the old Aerospace bombs and the external stores in Battletechnology. They were fun. Maybe they could be brought back?



Charistoph

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Another consideration, brought up on DakkaDakka in regards to an Alpha Strike group using the Radar Map from Strategic Operations, that ASF cost as much as a Mech of equivalent size, but in situations where there is no other ASF, their presence on the ground map is probably 2-4 Turns, out of 8 or more.

That's one of the reasons I haven't really pushed to learn the rules very hard, honestly.  Most of our BV values are rather low, and our time frames only allow for about 4-5 Turns.  That means an ASF will only be available for one single Pass.  Not much to entice me to bring a Warhammer that shows up, says, 'Hi!', and then is gone till the game is done, even with StrategicOps Simplified Radar Map.
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glitterboy2098

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Another consideration, brought up on DakkaDakka in regards to an Alpha Strike group using the Radar Map from Strategic Operations, that ASF cost as much as a Mech of equivalent size, but in situations where there is no other ASF, their presence on the ground map is probably 2-4 Turns, out of 8 or more.

That's one of the reasons I haven't really pushed to learn the rules very hard, honestly.  Most of our BV values are rather low, and our time frames only allow for about 4-5 Turns.  That means an ASF will only be available for one single Pass.  Not much to entice me to bring a Warhammer that shows up, says, 'Hi!', and then is gone till the game is done, even with StrategicOps Simplified Radar Map.

in alpha striek at least, the aerospace on the map rules from commander's edition ensures that they'd see more use.

Charistoph

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in alpha striek at least, the aerospace on the map rules from commander's edition ensures that they'd see more use.

That's what I said, but they were saying they were using the Radar Map with Alpha Strike. 

I can sort of see how it would work, but the problem still lies in that for the cost, ASF just don't cut it for how little they show on the map with such a method.

If it's a dedicated air or void scenario, that may be a different story, but most of our work has been the ground game, almost to exclusion.
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guardiandashi

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Looking at warships closely, I wonder if the original writers who designed the warships were right in creating them without construction rules.  They are big metal tubes that carry guns and cargo in zero gravity.  In that light I'd be fine with removing the construction rules for jumpships, warships, and space stations considering many of them as tangible fluff that you can play with at a table, maybe like a boss fight :bruce6sg:  Last I checked, Star Wars didn't have any construction rules for their capital ships, so why should ours?  :tongue:

I'd keep construction rules for anything that can travel in atmospheres since they'll have to escape a planet's gravity to do stuff in space, so the mass of their equipment is more of a concern.  Also, I think their overall mass should affect how they move.  For example, an empty Union dropship can get to space faster than a loaded one as assumed in the construction rules.  This was a rule in AT2R for omnifighters not equipping their entire pod space.  Of course this can always be changed at the game table...
actually thats not true about star wars not having construction rules. for capital ships, the most current set I have is "starships of the galaxy" I believe
now granted the rules while complete (for certain definitions of complete) are not super detailed. additionally because of star wars "lore" they make some IMO questionable choices, resulting in many ships having MASSIVELY excessive crew compliments.  (an imperial star destroyer has a crew of ~30-35,000 people, plus it carries ~10,000 troops with a much cheaper automation you could cut it down to ~1000 crew (and keep the 10,000 troops) while increasing the cargo capacity, weapons or some other aspect.

sorry about the tangent.

my personal issue is I liked a lot of aerospace (first edition) and hate the conversion to fighters being massively simplified into fire factors.

my 2 cents on the subject of lams, is I prefer aerospace 1's version of them but wish there was some tweeks on how the system works rather than the massive throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

I think a lot of it is that there were some issues and misconceptions on how things were supposed to work, and a few physics errors.

Cannonshop

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actually thats not true about star wars not having construction rules. for capital ships, the most current set I have is "starships of the galaxy" I believe
now granted the rules while complete (for certain definitions of complete) are not super detailed. additionally because of star wars "lore" they make some IMO questionable choices, resulting in many ships having MASSIVELY excessive crew compliments.  (an imperial star destroyer has a crew of ~30-35,000 people, plus it carries ~10,000 troops with a much cheaper automation you could cut it down to ~1000 crew (and keep the 10,000 troops) while increasing the cargo capacity, weapons or some other aspect.

sorry about the tangent.

my personal issue is I liked a lot of aerospace (first edition) and hate the conversion to fighters being massively simplified into fire factors.

my 2 cents on the subject of lams, is I prefer aerospace 1's version of them but wish there was some tweeks on how the system works rather than the massive throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

I think a lot of it is that there were some issues and misconceptions on how things were supposed to work, and a few physics errors.

A "Few Physics Errors" in Battletech is like saying that the Ocean is 'a bit moist'.

There's "Physics", and then there's "Fasafiziks".

The only important thing, is to keep the internal logic consistent ENOUGH-like any other magic system in gaming or fiction, while maintaining a consistent "Rule of Kewl".

thus why the ship-art from TRO: 2750 and the ship-art for TRO:3057 don't even bear resemblances that would logically flow from refitting the same hull.  (I'll leave the Gif sorting to someone else.)

what looked "Cool and futuristic and possible" in 1986, was superseded by what looked "Kewl" in the 1990s, and the fluff was kind of...strained to make it fit.

but it was ALL an aftethought, that's why consistency even in imagery wasn't considered in any way important.

Thus, also we have three current extant whole game systems to address the same situation, scaling problems, a pile of variant rules (many of which contradict one another directly) and so on.

Getting it consistent isn't a high priority, in part because the fanbase itself can't agree on what it ought to look like, never mind how it ought to work, only that something currently ISN'T working right.

but even there, we can't really agree on WHAT isn't working correctly.  For the Devs, this is a nightmare because the amount of sheer hard ass work necessary is unlikely to be accepted by enough people to make doing that work profitable.

As an example, after spanking someone who was using 3050 era Clan forces using a pair of LAMs under aT1 rules, I completely understood why LAMS as they existed at the time, had to go.

it was entirely too easy to make the 'super advanced' Clan warriors look like the cast of Dumb and Dumberer, or like your favorite bumbling cartoon villain from Warner Brothers' height when using what was, at the time, base-level Inner sphere tech in platforms that weren't particularly impressive otherwise.  (aka book LAMs)

the Harmony Gold mess just gave the excuse to get rid of it until someone was willing and able to revise the rules to something less irrational.

The problems Aero have, come from its existence as an afterthought.  A consistent approach gets complicated when you scale up from Fighters to Dropships, and then goes absurdity when you scale up from that, to Warships.

What's worse still, is that not a lot of effort was put into preventing "I Killzzz dem all wif' my ORBITUL BOMBARDMENT!!111"

because the rules there, weren't all that well thought out initially, either and as a direct outcome, the developers went on a "Let's make them extinct again because this is a record keeping pain in the ass that is unbalanced."

Heavy distortion of outcomes leading to making something as extinct as you can get away with? check.

That distortion being because you didn't really think it through: also check.

You didn't think it through because of fan reactions? double check.

The problem begins in the fanbase, the missteps just amplified the problem, then the fixes get 'lost in the shuffle' of layout and publishing deadlines.

This, too, is not unusual.  It's part of why 200 kilos Arrow IV does more AREA EFFECT blast damage than 1000 kilos of air-dropped bomb.  The TW bombing rules were balanced against BMR(r) with adjustments from AT2, Tac Ops artillery were a direct port from Munchtek (Maximum Tech's untested optional rules) and unbound, which were NOT balanced against air-drop munitions because those weren't a factor in Munchtek's ruleset.

The claim that it's an aerodynamic problem ignores that a long tom shell's weight has to include propellant, and aerodynamics itself can be applied to under-wing bombs more EASILY than to something that has to resist and survive being fired from a gun.

But, Physics need not apply, only "Fizikz".


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paladin2019

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Quote
As an example, after spanking someone who was using 3050 era Clan forces using a pair of LAMs under aT1 rules, I completely understood why LAMS as they existed at the time, had to go.
Quick question, what is meant by "aT1" rules?
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Quick question, what is meant by "aT1" rules?

AeroTech 1, the original boxed game from 1986 or so.
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paladin2019

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Thanks. That sounds like a misapplication of rules. A 3050 clanner needs a 6 plus range and attacker movement to hit a flying Air'Mech and a 8 plus attacker movement to hit a fighter, 4+ if the fighter targeted them.

Edit: There is also the unaddressed question in the text of whether the LAM driver uses Mech or Aerospace skills in Air'Mech and fighter mode. If so, the base P/G goes from 5/4 to 5/6.
« Last Edit: 09 March 2024, 20:57:52 by paladin2019 »
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Cannonshop

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Thanks. That sounds like a misapplication of rules. A 3050 clanner needs a 6 plus range and attacker movement to hit a flying Air'Mech and a 8 plus attacker movement to hit a fighter, 4+ if the fighter targeted them.

Edit: There is also the unaddressed question in the text of whether the LAM driver uses Mech or Aerospace skills in Air'Mech and fighter mode. If so, the base P/G goes from 5/4 to 5/6.

ERm... Jumping was Plus Three, which in airmech mode under AT1, was still plus three, then there's the distance, because that plus three wasn't a flat plus three-your distance moved counted in ADDITION.

Your base Clan Warrior, then, needed his gunnery (3) plus 5 (same as a VTOL moving 9 hexes).

IIRC most LAMs had an airmech distance of nine or more, see?

So at minimum, standing still, your clanner needs to roll higher than eight, assuming short range (0).  Medium (2) or Long (4) and he's looking at 10 or 12 (or more).

Meanwile, my Airmech mode doesn't count as jumping for gunnery.  So base gunnery 4, plus two for medium plus one for movement.

Yeah, it was broken as ******, since to get good numbers the Clanner player has to sacrifice his movement or just run assaults that don't have much movement to begin with.  (AMM2 turns the eight into ten, and the ten into twelves or higher.)

Strafing in that era also worked differently.  Draw a line down the map three hexes wide in Aerospace mode.  everything in that line takes your full weapons complement of energy weapons.

Strafe, transform, attack-the odds are good he'll have pre-existing damage.

I wont' go into what bombing first did, suffice to say it was bad enough that removing LAMS to get them reworked and add some restrictions was a GOOD idea, because AAA before AT2 was WEAK-the golden bb rule didn't exist, and in AT1, your Lam could drop bombs in Aerospace fighter mode, strafe, then drop into Air'mech to tangle, which was a lot nastier when you look at what kind of bombs were available in AT1, that weren't available by AT2 or Total Warfare.

LAMS in those days were REALLY invitations to powergame.  The Star League Tech was available by then, so a custom LAM could get outright Deviant in terms of twinking.

That's without using anything in "Maximum Tech" or "unbound".  It took almost fifteen years to fix those rules to the point that Land Air 'mechs weren't grossly broken and unbalanced in the ground game.  All the restrictions people complain about with them now? are because of HOW broken they were before they were cut out of the rules courtesy of Harmony Gold.

The first generation didn't just borrow the ART off Robotech, they made Land Air 'Mechs as POWERFUL as the Veritechs in Robotech.
« Last Edit: 10 March 2024, 03:30:19 by Cannonshop »
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paladin2019

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ERm... Jumping was Plus Three, which in airmech mode under AT1, was still plus three, then there's the distance, because that plus three wasn't a flat plus three-your distance moved counted in ADDITION.
A flying Air'Mech is not a normal target. Its modifier to hit from a ground combatant is +4. That's it. A 3050 clanner with their P/G of 3/2 (per TRO:3050) thus needs a (base 4+4 target-2 Gunnery) 6 to hit at short range. Flyers do not have the standard distance based movement modifiers of ground targets in AeroTech.

On the other side, the Air'Mech is using the either the base 4 for ground attackers or base 6 to hit for flyers (the rules aren't clear about exactly when and if the aerospace pilot base P/G of 5/6 applies) plus the +2 to hit for flying.

If the LAM is in fighter mode and performing those air to ground attacks, the base target to hit is 10 with no range or target modifiers. This is modified by the clanner's G2 down to 8 and an additional -4 if the mech was the target of or in the strafing run of the LAM.

EDIT: Also, if the LAM is in fighter mode and strafing, the base TN is 8, modified by Gunnery, target movement, terrain, and damage to the airframe. Again, default Gunnery is also 6 for an aerospace pilot (for a +2 modifier), but AeroTech does not address whether the LAM driver has two sets of skills.

EDIT 2: 1987's BTM:ROW did clear up and streamline a few things. These are the rules carried forward into 1990's BTC, which would be the operative rules appropriate to TRO:3050 of the same year.
  • LAMs in flight in Air'Mech mode are treated as jumping mechs for targeting and attacking. Under this ruleset, they do generate TMM at a +1 and take a +3 modifier to their fire.
  • VTOLs are introduced in this book and flying Air'Mechs have to pay attention to elevation, etc. as a VTOL.
There still is no clarification on a second set of skills for the pilot.
« Last Edit: 10 March 2024, 04:21:50 by paladin2019 »
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

RifleMech

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Way back when Targeting Computers could be used with Pulse Lasers resulting in a -3 modifier. Needless to say if LAMs were on the tables, the Clans used flashbulbs with TCs. Of course 100 ton OMNI LAMs with Clan tech were truly nasty so I can understand FASA eliminating OMNI Tech and capping LAM weight at 55 tons in Battletech Compendium and prohibiting bulky advance tech in Tactical Handbook.



Charistoph

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Way back when Targeting Computers could be used with Pulse Lasers resulting in a -3 modifier.

You say that like they can't now.  How odd.  You can't use the Targeting Computer to make Aimed Shots with Pulse Lasers, but there's nothing stopping the TC from giving Pulse Lasers a bonus for regular fire.
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RifleMech

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Thank you for clarifying that for me.

 

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