Author Topic: Billions C-Bill Challenge  (Read 3013 times)

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #30 on: 31 March 2024, 05:46:33 »
*snip*
Would love to see a tiny station with some small craft and asf bays where squadrons refuel and rearm but they just don't exist in canon.  More useful than an orbital weapon platform.
You're pretty much exactly describing a "Small Habitat" or "Small Unpressurized Yard"... :)

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #31 on: 31 March 2024, 07:21:47 »
Since we're down in fan rules, I feel safe in saying that a 3,000-ton "Lily Pad" station is possible with 2 Small Craft (probably carrying SAR birds) and 6 ASF cubicles (usually empty for recovery/refueling ops) for under 10,000,000 C-Bills.  You could probably cut it down to 2,000 tons, but you wouldn't have much room for recovered birds, or gas for them.  Unfortunately, as a station, you're stuck with a minimum of 45 crew.

maxcarrion

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #32 on: 31 March 2024, 07:33:42 »
You're pretty much exactly describing a "Small Habitat" or "Small Unpressurized Yard"... :)

Habitats and factories all have loads of things that you don't want to make military targets out of.  Thousands of civilians should not be living on your barely armoured fighter base packed full of rocket fuel.

Quite tempted to start dipping into custom designs to see how we can improve on the canon choices, larger drop ships, better stations, clan HSE ASF etc.  obviously going outside of the original challenge

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #33 on: 31 March 2024, 07:46:06 »
The description of "Small Habitat" goes all the way down to 2,000 tons, so it's not necessarily thousands of civilians.

And I was able to shave the Lily Pad down to a "Mini Pad" at 2,000 tons for under 7,000,000 C-Bills.  Of course, that means no ASF cubicles, and leaving one of the Small Craft cubicles empty for recovery operations (followed by stuffing the derelict into cargo).

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #34 on: 31 March 2024, 08:15:15 »

Lagrange

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #35 on: 31 March 2024, 12:24:40 »
What do you think of the Xerxes in stead of the Reiver?  Possibly mix in some Xerxes 2.
The advantage of the Xerxes is that it can deliver more heavy hole-punching hits and it's a bit faster.  That's 4x 15 point hits which magnify to up to 60 each in an HSE.

The disadvantage is almost everything else.  It costs a bit more, has much less armor, the Riever can threshold even higher with its hole puncher, and the Riever does more damage over all.  Furthermore, if the Xerxes tries to use it's extra thrust it risks structural damage.  Overall, the Xerxes seems to be a glass cannon design.

I think you're missing a small craft group for search and rescue, towing, and ferrying supplies/personnel about, even if it's just a handful of basic shuttles.
For ferrying of supplies/personnel, I was assuming that the military can contract on commercial transit to moons and the civilian station.  That leaves CSF needing supply, which can be accomplished via detaching one of the Miraborgs now and then (they have 1k tons of cargo).  You might be concerned about the Battlesats, but we have extra and the stationary drive is adequate to get them from anywhere to anywhere in about a 1 month time frame.  Overall, figure a worst case of 1 month to deploy, 4 months on duty, and 1 month to return.   They have adequate cargo capacity to go on  longer so missions are really just limited by zero-g tolerance.  You might also be concerned that ferrying of supplies by commercial transit during wartime doesn't work.  But I don't think any ferrying of supplies really works against a good adversary---strangling logistics is a standard basic move if available.  Thus, the emphasis on an expendables reserve.

That leaves rescue and towing.   I haven't been able to find any canon smallcraft which can tow.  Looking into the rescue side, the Zhen Niao looks nice.  The AP helps with SAR, the Space Mine Dispenser might be handy if you know where the enemy is coming from sufficiently in advance, and it's fast enough to travel with the Rievers and provide ECM protection vs. other ASF: a +1 penalty to hit imposed on the enemy is probably worth a 4% reduction in firepower.  I added this to the EDFs.

This also reminded me that I forgot to salt the ASFs with ECM and AP units.  ECM units can impose a +1 penalty to hit to all nearby ASF (and the Zhen Niao can extend that to an additional +1).  APs can cut through enemy ECM.  Ideally, you just do a field refit of your common design with an ECM or AP, but that's not canon.  Looking through things, it looks like Hellcat II HCT-214 for APs and Lancet LX-3 for ECM is decent design for the space formations.  For planetary defense Chaeronea 4 and Issedone C are even cheaper alternatives.  Added in and the post is tweaked.

Would love to see a tiny station with some small craft and asf bays where squadrons refuel and rearm but they just don't exist in canon.  More useful than an orbital weapon platform.
Yeah, agreed.  I'm assuming that vacuum-safe cargo can be externalized in space, so you don't need to much store.

You're pretty much exactly describing a "Small Habitat" or "Small Unpressurized Yard"... :)
These are super expensive.  I'd love to invest in something like 100 Skywatch satellites instead of the battlesats.  That would give super-comprehensive coverage for a bit loss cost overall.

Lagrange

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #36 on: 31 March 2024, 12:33:14 »
I posted the "Lily Pad" design here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=84547.0
I'm not quite seeing the use case for these.  The forces I was laying out have a base already (moon/satellite/planet of responsibility) except for the CSF, and the CSF is by design fairly maneuverable.

Maybe it could be used more as a slow space truck?

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #37 on: 31 March 2024, 13:09:43 »
They're a mobile FARP for up to a squadron of ASF, and could refuel any accompanying Small Craft at the same time.  Basically, they're your "bases between bases"... :)

maxcarrion

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #38 on: 31 March 2024, 15:50:44 »
I'm not quite seeing the use case for these.  The forces I was laying out have a base already (moon/satellite/planet of responsibility) except for the CSF, and the CSF is by design fairly maneuverable.

Maybe it could be used more as a slow space truck?

The use cases include but are not limited to
 - all the things the battlesats do except shoot their NL
 - provide a convenient landing pad for fighters to refuel/rearm for example
        - Ammon squadron 7 have fired off all their external ordinance in a protracted dogfight rather than spending 2 hours returning to base they quickly set down at a lily pad, re-arm and re-engage faster.
       - Sending your dirtside heavy fighters to engage away from planet.thwy are able to lift more easily without external ordinance and arm up at the orbital lilypad.
  - SAR and emergency platform, for example to recover fighters that were in operable following an HSE
  - providing a platform away from strategic targtes, for example to detain a suspicious drop ship that's suspected of carrying nukes.

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #39 on: 31 March 2024, 16:02:54 »
Plus, they only cost around what a Heavy ASF does... :)

Lagrange

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #40 on: 31 March 2024, 20:06:29 »
They're a mobile FARP for up to a squadron of ASF, and could refuel any accompanying Small Craft at the same time.  Basically, they're your "bases between bases"... :)
The intuition of the in-between base doesn't work well in space because the fuel & time required multiplies.  For example, if you have point A and point C with point B in the middle, then dong A->B->C requires sqrt(2) more time as long as the fill up at point B takes zero time.   

The other tricky thing about this is that it creates a target.  This leads to the question: do you defend it?  If you defend it, that requires significant resources (see the EDFs).  You could avoid by using secrecy (which the battlesats do), but that's somewhat risky, and this one now has more at risk.

The use cases include but are not limited to
 - all the things the battlesats do except shoot their NL
 - provide a convenient landing pad for fighters to refuel/rearm for example
        - Ammon squadron 7 have fired off all their external ordinance in a protracted dogfight rather than spending 2 hours returning to base they quickly set down at a lily pad, re-arm and re-engage faster.
       - Sending your dirtside heavy fighters to engage away from planet.thwy are able to lift more easily without external ordinance and arm up at the orbital lilypad.
  - SAR and emergency platform, for example to recover fighters that were in operable following an HSE
  - providing a platform away from strategic targtes, for example to detain a suspicious drop ship that's suspected of carrying nukes.
The point of the battlesats is "eyes on the sky".  It's modestly better than the battlesat (cheaper, with a better secondary mission), but still nowhere near as good as those Skywatch satellites which are an order of magnitude cheaper, require zero crew, and have super-elite detection checks.   Given that, it seems we should satisfy the primary mission with the Skywatch satellites and then consider whether or not secondary missions can be promoted to primary.

W.r.t. Refuel/Rearm, there's some point to this.  There would be much more point if we were using the Rievers in the PDF, since they can't reach space with a full bomb load.  The Ammon's are merely reduced to a 3/5 with full hardpoints and the Chaeronea's are reduced to 10/15.  The fuel cost of reaching orbit is not to significant (fraction of a ton) although obviously topping off could be helpful.   Overall, it seems like a modest value?  Alternatively, you could base out of something like this to reduce exo-atmospheric reaction times, which may be a greater value than topping up fuel.

SAR: Smallcraft are better and comparably priced.

Emergency platform: You probably need a tug to handle this first, and on moons or near civilian stations that's probably all you need.  Can a tug be made which can grapple a damaged ASF and land on a planet? ... it looks like "yes"---you can make a 3/5 200 ton smallcraft which can dock with a damaged ASF and carry the ASF through the atmosphere to a planetary base.  This would take longer than carrying it to satellite, but you would gain the protection of the atmosphere.

Detaining platform: This is useful, but typically not a military function.  Leaving customs stuff to the law enforcement budget seems reasonable as it leaves the military with a clearer mission: break stuff as necessary to protect the system. 

Overall, it seems like the refuel/rearm choice is the most plausible.  It's not clear this is the right scale there though.  There are _many_ planetary ASF, so handling 6 is pretty piecemeal, and the startup cost on a station is pretty substantial.  It looks you can double the price and handle about 5x as many ASF/smallcraft with a somewhat larger station.  That's a more appreciable fraction of the planetary ASF.  A significant difficulty with the adding the station near a planet is that it becomes a valid HSE target.  As long as it's kept low cost/value that's probably ok, but it's something to keep in mind.

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #41 on: 31 March 2024, 20:10:03 »
A Lily Pad multiplies the range of your SAR assets, since it can carry two, and has more room aboard for rescued personnel (plus the MASH core module for any serious medical requirements).

Lagrange

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #42 on: 31 March 2024, 21:45:13 »
A Lily Pad multiplies the range of your SAR assets, since it can carry two, and has more room aboard for rescued personnel (plus the MASH core module for any serious medical requirements).
I'm vague on whether SAR assets benefit much from a range multiplier.  Most combat probably takes place near a location someone wants to defend, so range to that location is pretty small compared to the burn-days a smallcraft typically can manage.  The few that don't (like an HSE surprise attack on an invading force mid-flight) have a very high delta-V compared to the system, and so any SAR assets at rest at the moment of the engagements will take many days to reach zero relative velocity.  In that time, pretty much anyone in need of rescue will run out of air, so this becomes more of a "Search and Salvage" mission.  Also, I don't think a Lily pad could be useful in this situation, since it would need to have a high velocity relative to the system to dock with and refuel a smallcraft in transit in a manner which assisted the SAS mission.

A MASH is good, but you can also have a MASH on a dedicated SAR smallcraft.

It might seem like I'm dumping on the Lily Pad.  Apologies if so---I'm just playing with the idea to see what missions most benefit from it.  At the moment, I'm finding refuel/rearm most compelling.

maxcarrion

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #43 on: 01 April 2024, 00:06:19 »
I'm vague on whether SAR assets benefit much from a range multiplier.  Most combat probably takes place near a location someone wants to defend, so range to that location is pretty small compared to the burn-days a smallcraft typically can manage.  The few that don't (like an HSE surprise attack on an invading force mid-flight) have a very high delta-V compared to the system, and so any SAR assets at rest at the moment of the engagements will take many days to reach zero relative velocity.  In that time, pretty much anyone in need of rescue will run out of air, so this becomes more of a "Search and Salvage" mission.  Also, I don't think a Lily pad could be useful in this situation, since it would need to have a high velocity relative to the system to dock with and refuel a smallcraft in transit in a manner which assisted the SAS mission.

A MASH is good, but you can also have a MASH on a dedicated SAR smallcraft.

It might seem like I'm dumping on the Lily Pad.  Apologies if so---I'm just playing with the idea to see what missions most benefit from it.  At the moment, I'm finding refuel/rearm most compelling.

I think you've argued the point eloquently and I agree with you pretty much throughout.  I think you'd want to settle the question of where customs and security sit as some doctrines would see it asilitary and some civilian.  But tbh if we're building a customs station we should build a larger quarantine centre with quarters and cargo space or just use a small craft as a mobile customs cutter and anchor off.

I am not familiar with Skywatch satellites, I've never been that heavy into the blackwater rules,.but if they do the job better for less than, and don't require crew than, yeah, lets use those when we are able to shed canon constraints.

I think I'd be somewhat inclined to still have 1 stop off station around the main planet but make it larger as it wouldn't be much more expensive to up a lilypad to say 24 or even more ASF bays without changing much else.  Some of the planets fighter command could even be stationed there allowing several squadrons to be deployed directly to orbit.

Attaching a squadron of small craft to each base should cover most other mission profiles, whether these are custom SAR birds or shuttles with a paramedic and medical supplies on board I'm not sure how much value a full MASH on a shuttle is when you are on a small craft in a friendly system.
« Last Edit: 01 April 2024, 00:15:35 by maxcarrion »

Daryk

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Re: Billions C-Bill Challenge
« Reply #44 on: 01 April 2024, 03:20:05 »
Lagrange: No worries!  As maxcarrion said, you've been eloquent in your arguments, and kept them fully focused on the mission set.  Thank you!

maxcarrion: The Hong Lung (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hong_Lung) is probably a better starting point for what you're talking about.