FC Naval Command Decision

[Minemech]

As CS put it,  Scouts & Merchants (or Hunters) are better options for recon.
The FC has more JS variety in production than any other nation IIRC. 
I seem to recall DS/JS giving out the original production info & had the FS & LC each making 4/5 of the 5 OG JS models combined covering all 5.
Plenty of smaller more discrete options for "Recon" via blending in w/ JS traffic.


Actually the FC tends to go "support the DS Fleet" in Warship design.
Which then explains the 2nd issue which is, Who needs Cargo when you have enough collars that you can devote one to a Mammoth permanently & let it act as your "Shuttle" on Resupply duty down to the planet or over to a space station, etc etc w/o having to park your Warship next to an airlock or in close orbit.

At least that is how I explain what is clearly a "lack of balance" between Collars, Cargo, & SI in all 3 FC ships.

1.) Jumpships are standard intelligence assets and are already baked in the cake. They are of very limited utility as such and are absolutely worthless against some adversaries, and relatively contained by others who are used to them being used as spyships. The age of the Bug-Eye is over. You can see this through various things, such as the development of the Zechetinu, or the use of the stealth Cheetah during the Battle of Terra.
2.) All of the other powers have all the Jumpship collars they need. The Federated Commonwealth just used the extra collars to make up for the hyper-generic nature of their ships. More to the point, the Davion side of the Federated Commonwealth was notorious for its lack of force projection capability.

[Cannonshop]

1.) Jumpships are standard intelligence assets and are already baked in the cake. They are of very limited utility as such and are absolutely worthless against some adversaries, and relatively contained by others who are used to them being used as spyships. The age of the Bug-Eye is over. You can see this through various things, such as the development of the Zechetinu, or the use of the stealth Cheetah during the Battle of Terra.
2.) All of the other powers have all the Jumpship collars they need. The Federated Commonwealth just used the extra collars to make up for the hyper-generic nature of their ships. More to the point, the Davion side of the Federated Commonwealth was notorious for its lack of force projection capability.

1,) I keep trying to tell people; It's not the ship type that matters (other than it needs strategic mobility-aka it needs a jump drive).  what matters is how you're using it.

Everyone and his brother's Seneschal sends their jumpships to monitor the jump points from inside the jump points.  This is closest approach, it's the easiest jump to get close to the planet, it's the most monitored space in a system outside the ionosphere of an inhabitd major planet.  That makes it not so good for gathering strategic intel, but when your doctrine is written by 'mechwarriors, to be understood by 'mechwarriors, with little to no input from anyone who isn't a 'mechwarrior, that's what you get.

Thus, also, why you get starship commanders who ram or do other stupidly unproductive acts of glory (like taking several hundred billion C-bill equivalents of public property into the tropopause without securing a route out, then losing said asset because it's flat-footed while trying to imitate a close air support platform.)

2) The 'generality' you're claiming isn't so-the Fedsuns make one thing-they make armed transports for ground units.  That's what Foxes are, that's what Avalons are as well.  it's the mindset of the people writing the existing doctrine and making the procurement decisions.  They have light cargo because they're intended to be kept in standby until the ground units need to move.

They aren't built for duration patrol, they're not built for commerce interdiction, intelligence gathering, or courier duties, and teh're largely not suitable for those roles.  They're suitable to sit in low orbit servicing dropships on ground attack.

Their weapons fit and layout are optimized for that role-the lighter cannons means deeper magazines for more sustained fire at ground targets, or as a means to discourage the expected LIGHT opposition.  (a few fighters or small assault droppers).  the Fox class is the kind of ship a 'mechwarrior would design as their idea of a 'good ride' for an RCT at a price the national budget can pay without cutting into procurement for more battlemech battalions.

Because that's who's writing their doctrine and making the procurement decisions.

[Minemech]

1,) I keep trying to tell people; It's not the ship type that matters (other than it needs strategic mobility-aka it needs a jump drive).  what matters is how you're using it.

Everyone and his brother's Seneschal sends their jumpships to monitor the jump points from inside the jump points.  This is closest approach, it's the easiest jump to get close to the planet, it's the most monitored space in a system outside the ionosphere of an inhabitd major planet.  That makes it not so good for gathering strategic intel, but when your doctrine is written by 'mechwarriors, to be understood by 'mechwarriors, with little to no input from anyone who isn't a 'mechwarrior, that's what you get.

Thus, also, why you get starship commanders who ram or do other stupidly unproductive acts of glory (like taking several hundred billion C-bill equivalents of public property into the tropopause without securing a route out, then losing said asset because it's flat-footed while trying to imitate a close air support platform.)

2) The 'generality' you're claiming isn't so-the Fedsuns make one thing-they make armed transports for ground units.  That's what Foxes are, that's what Avalons are as well.  it's the mindset of the people writing the existing doctrine and making the procurement decisions.  They have light cargo because they're intended to be kept in standby until the ground units need to move.

They aren't built for duration patrol, they're not built for commerce interdiction, intelligence gathering, or courier duties, and teh're largely not suitable for those roles.  They're suitable to sit in low orbit servicing dropships on ground attack.

Their weapons fit and layout are optimized for that role-the lighter cannons means deeper magazines for more sustained fire at ground targets, or as a means to discourage the expected LIGHT opposition.  (a few fighters or small assault droppers).  the Fox class is the kind of ship a 'mechwarrior would design as their idea of a 'good ride' for an RCT at a price the national budget can pay without cutting into procurement for more battlemech battalions.

Because that's who's writing their doctrine and making the procurement decisions.

1.) Everyone uses Jumpships for intelligence purposes, primarily opensource. They are an extremely limited asset, with the most common type (The Invader) having less than 600 tons of cargo space to work with and highly limited fuel. Some entities like the Clans will simply snipe them.
2.) We have an imperfect agreement as of yet. I think that that is fine.

[Cannonshop]

1.) Everyone uses Jumpships for intelligence purposes, primarily opensource. They are an extremely limited asset, with the most common type (The Invader) having less than 600 tons of cargo space to work with and highly limited fuel. Some entities like the Clans will simply snipe them.
2.) We have an imperfect agreement as of yet. I think that that is fine.

1) you can't snipe what you're not looking for.  Everyone (clans included) uses them the same way-that is, they try to 'obscurity' their way on a close emergence point or fixed jump point (Zenith, Nadir, or nearby Pirate).  You're right about the integral cargo fraction being too small...but that's why you'd (hypothetically) be dragging a Mule along full of stores. 

Jump physics, as written (and confirmed by devs including Cray and others) means that the Zenith and Nadir are the closest stable points, while Pirate points are closer, but not as stable.

that means lots of your commercial traffic, (which is in peacetime the valuable traffic) uses them exclusively because they're nearby and stable.

But they're not the only approaches, and deep radar installations are directional (they kinda have to be, a spherical volume and you end up with so much clutter and so much investment you're effectively blind anyway).

Optical telescopes operated by professionals can get some outstanding resolutions even using 1970s tech, never mind 22nd through 24th century or later tech, radio waves propogate, sensitive recievers can be applied with filtering out a considerable distance before signal degradation is a problem (see: Voyager 1 and 2, those have transmitters with less power than your cell phone).

a dedicated naval recon whether it's stick-and-ball jumpship/dropship, or a dedicated platform, can be in a system for months without being detected, even with very active efforts pointed where the tech and needs say they have to point it.

The solution to achieve it is a logistics problem and a navigation problem-but not a HARD navigation problem.  Your main points of difficulty end up being keeping your spies in position and getting reports to higher command, not avoiding detection unless you're very sloppy indeed (Directional radio relay is a thing, as long as your target is stationary relative or predictably placed, and a relay ship cold be coming and going without ANYONE seeing it-from outside the distance of your Zenith and Nadir points.)

while the tech writeups show all of this is POSSIBLE, th fiction shows nobody does it.

It doesn't occur to them.  For that to fit, the explanation is simple;  Nobody thinks of it, because the responsible people don't think that way.

Which dovetails with the behaviors we do see in the fiction.  The people making the calls, don't think in 'spacer terms', they think in 'ground combat terms'-with ground combat radius and duration limits.

They are, one and all, Warriors, who sometimes go into space...but don't actually know that much about it beyond how it relates to their immediate focus of fighting on or near the ground.

This also explains why it was a notable accomplishment for Clan Ghost Bear to succeed in asteroid mining during the golden century, instead of it being the default commonplace it ought to have been, given the number of starships the Clans took off with when they were still the SLDF.  The mentalities didn't evolve, instead, all focus was on surface, both economically, and in terms of training and priority.

Why would this, in turn be? because it's HARD to guard a mine that cracks asteroids, and it's easy to guard a shallow scratch on the surface of a habitable world-the directions it can be attackd are limited, there's a horizon.  (neither of these is true in deep space) and the tools can be limited on a surface facility, where the tools for asteroid mining would class as WMD if you're doing it right.

Meaning it's more secure, especially if you're governed by some flavor of military Junta or have embraced corporate or other corruption as de-facto SOP for daily governance.

The Clans in particular have a society designed to hamper development, to discourage it, to discourage advancement as well (if you're successful, your neighbors line up to take whatever you built by force immediately-hence why the Smoke Jaguars had anything at all to take.)

but the Great Houses have similar issues.  Fedsuns with their marcher lords need that same level of paranoid because they are constantly grasping for power, the Lyrans allowed monopolies to form and fester, and so on.

all of this informs Naval development-or lack thereof.  The core purpose of a Navy isn't to move soldiers, unless that's all you're keeping a navy for.  It's to protect and advance Commerce, the lifeblood of nations built like archipelagoes of island chains in a wholly uninhabitable sea...unless everyone, is treating their navy as a taxi service for the army.

which everyone is, including that alleged 'Naval Clan'.

In terms of operations, most "Navies" in the Battletech setting, aren't even organized like age-of-sail, they're structured more like Ancient Roman navies, whose main purpose was to move Legions from one place to another.

[Hellraiser]

In terms of operations, most "Navies" in the Battletech setting, aren't even organized like age-of-sail, they're structured more like Ancient Roman navies, whose main purpose was to move Legions from one place to another.

Interesting point & I'm wondering if a lot of what your suggesting is based on Earth's current "environment" where you have this large swath of "International Waters" v/s the 12 mile territorial boundary from land.

That kind of arrangement doesn't really exist in Black Space/House Borders as we know it.
Either your in a system you own, or your not,  I guess the closest thing we might have for that would be uninhabited systems but even then, if your "behind lines" I'm assuming that anyone that finds you will treat you as hostile.

House Navies seem like they are designed for the Coast Guard or even the Marines operating in Territorial Waters, but not actually set up for naval operations on the other side of the planet, IE, behind enemy house boarders.

[Daryk]

The "12-mile limit" of the BT universe is the range of your surface to orbit batteries... everything else is international "waters"... ;)

[Cannonshop]

Interesting point & I'm wondering if a lot of what your suggesting is based on Earth's current "environment" where you have this large swath of "International Waters" v/s the 12 mile territorial boundary from land.

That kind of arrangement doesn't really exist in Black Space/House Borders as we know it.
Either your in a system you own, or your not,  I guess the closest thing we might have for that would be uninhabited systems but even then, if your "behind lines" I'm assuming that anyone that finds you will treat you as hostile.

House Navies seem like they are designed for the Coast Guard or even the Marines operating in Territorial Waters, but not actually set up for naval operations on the other side of the planet, IE, behind enemy house boarders.

that's a charitable interpretation, but I fear, somewhat inaccurate.  Your "international waters' are what you can't patrol, or control.

Which, for most Canon forces, is pretty much most of an existing solar system.

A way of interpreting it, is that your sovereignty reaches about as far as your orders will be obeyed, and not one step further.

Forces are configured and structured to hold a single planet, in most star systems, maybe an extra moon...but not much else, meaning that the rest of the sovereignty is, in practical terms, a legal fiction-that is, it exists in statute, but is unenforceable in fact-whether through preference (aka being unwilling to have patrol durations into the months, lack of facility or mapping for in-system jumps, technical issues, etc) or because of manpower and willingness to establish anchoring facilities.  (unwilling to garrision outer system planets and moon systems, unable to do so because you procured dropships with small fuel tanks and low cargo fractions).

either way being, 'ownership' of a system outside the main inhabited world is more theory than practice.  as a result, the ability to control it and do things like discouraging someone from sneakin' in and reading your mail, watching your patrols, counting the latrines and planning your demise are more inclinations, than actions.

This is actually highlighted by the difficulty (in canon and game rules) of plotting in-system jumps in systems that have been inhabited and transited for Centuries, where the charting and maps should be ultra-reliable.

They aren't, hence the massive difficulty modifier for plotting a hop from earth-moon L1, to Mars-phobos.

The lack of attention or efforts to develop 'tide tables' (aka predictive plots on where known gravitational nulls will be on any given day of the year) demonstrates that those efforts never happened.

Even though such a structure would allow for massive resource gathering efforts to become profitable from out-system to in-system, which would also facilitate courier and logistics, as well as making defending a star system functionally possible.

The answer, given the timeframe, is that politics does not allow it, thus, politics decides Doctrine, Doctrine decides structure and procurement.

A dropship burning fuel at newtonian speeds is adequate for EArth/Luna, if you tried it in Saturn orbit, with that many moons? your first patrol circuit would take years and your patrols would never be anywhere actually useful in an emergency.

But it's perfectly adequate to defend Earth/Luna and enforce your will within that orbital range, assuming you have a squadron of them active at any given time.

even ONE star-system is more like open ocean, (Not the mediterranean, I mean North Atlantic) with navies configured more like Triremes or row-galleys.

If you actually want that legal claim to have more teeth than what can be accomplished by a cooperative legal agreement.

The reason it works, is because everyone is doing it the same way.  which, given the technologies and visible oversights, suggests that doing it some other way is politically or culturally unthinkable.

and that, too, is explained.  "MOther Doctrine"-a concerted effort over the span of centuries to prevent anyone who has the ABILITY to consider other approaches, from getting into, or living long enough, to actually be in a position to apply it.  If it began with edited works being sent to the colonies as they were established, then limiting innovation afterward?

Yeah, that would do it.  The Roman Church managed to force a Geocentric cosmology for centuries despite real-world observations and a driving need in navigation to abandon it for a heliocentric model.

And Terra has had control over everybody's phone line for centuries.  That makes control over information flow, and over what ideas will have traction, fairly easy even with people that are suspicious or outright enemies.

This gets further when you understand that everybody is using the same source code on their jump computers, and that code was derived from code authored in Terran Alliance days, when controlling transits (especially potential FTL) was a policy requirement.  If it takes 'ticking' the code to manage a major body pirate insertion, and most jump computers default to Zenith/Nadir, and that's your closest reliable arrival point?

what do people do when presented with the choice of an easy task, or a harder task??  The 'easy way' is what gets ingrained.

[Daryk]

The "12-mile limit" was literally derived from the maximum effective range of shore batteries in the 19th century.

[Cannonshop]

A couple of quick examples;

Case White.  Comstar, despite having extensive charts, knowledge of orbital periods, and remnant SLDF ships with large fuel and cargo fractions, chose to enter the Sol system at a predictable point, close to where garrisons could react, and got their underwear pulled over their heads and their ass beat.

Wolf's Dragoons, despite knowning the value of recon, did hte same thing-they came in at a highly predictable L1 or nearly static point, and got their ass beat.

both of those wouldn't have been POSSIBLE if they didn't try to come in at littoral distances for a quick campaign, and both cases, they likely wouldn't have done it, if they'd engaged in third grade level recon instead of jumping in blind.

This speaks to people who have a very...limited...understanding of space, space warfare, motion, and intelligence gathering.  but it's not just limited to them.  Kerensky wasted massive resources on targets that could be easily and simply bypassed and left irrelevant, so did Alaric Ward, so did Devlin Stone-they followed inherited paradigms instead of rethinking, they all did what was traditional in one way  or another, despite the obvious flaw in doing so.

These people are not unintelligent, but they chose irrational actions, which only become rational, if you assume they are operating from an information set that doesn't allow them to look at the strategic picture and realize that while a pirate, L1 or Zenith/Nadir approach is CLOSER, it's not necessarily BETTER.  It's just easier to use the presets.

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, Case White & the WD Attack were both acting on old intel, outdated, incomplete, and thought they would have a field day going in w/o realizing an entire SDS network had been built in the last decade.

Then again, none of this is true historical, so maybe we should be blaming authors for giving us characters who can't do the basics of intel & recon before charging in.

[Cannonshop]

Yeah, Case White & the WD Attack were both acting on old intel, outdated, incomplete, and thought they would have a field day going in w/o realizing an entire SDS network had been built in the last decade.

Then again, none of this is true historical, so maybe we should be blaming authors for giving us characters who can't do the basics of intel & recon before charging in.

The Authors create the History, as fans, we are left to interpret it, sometimes in ways that some authors find offensive, but that's because we're looking at the product and the outcome without the attachment of being the creator.  (or the deadlines, editorial interference, page count issues...)

I've actually had to tap-dance argue my way out of a ban before, for pointing out trends they did not intend-even when I was a member of the Moderator Staff (more than a decade ago, if you're keeping count).

The trends, nevertheless, are there, and if they can be explained by in-universe forces and factors..?

Back in the days when Comic Books were a leading form of youth culture, (back in the eighties), Marvel had something in their letters page called a "No Prize"-which was awarded to readers who detected a gross inconsistency, then logic'ed it away-that the authors had missed or overlooked.

basically, detecting a mistake, then explaining why it wasn't.

The 'No Prize' explanation for why WD and ComStar didn't do basic recon, is that culturally, they didn't think they needed to-it's the same reason Kerensky honestly believed he needed to use fire-ships on fixed installations, and why both Stone and Alaric also thought they needed to do that.

The basis is, these are all ground commanders. or commanders raised up in a ground commander paradigm, academically they know things, but that knowledge is only a fraction of the thinking they're using, because they're raised to certain base expectations.

Thus, also, why a long-service Warship Officer could accept and obey an order to go into the troposphere of a planet without having escorts covering the system-the idea that his opponent could have reinforcements or relief coming simply didn't occur at Palmyra until it was too late.

Even though that situation would be the FIRST thing he should've expected (and argued), because a competent enemy isn't going to stand still and let you annihilate them utterly,and a fleet in being is a threat to any operation of that type that is done unescorted.

This also explains the 3060s era (and 3050s era) fetish for ramming attacks-the idea that an enemy might step aside and exploit your overcommitment doesn't occur, because your officers are trained in a ground-surface-warfare mindset, where movement is 2D and there's a hard 'ground'.

Warriors, who sometimes go into space, not Spacers who are sometimes forced to fight.  see how that works out? Not only do you get bad decisions, but those bad decisions end up being enshrined as good conduct.

as Spock said in the second theatrical Trek movie, "He is intelligent,but he thinks in two dimensions."

Same thing for nearly every canon naval officer we've had presented thus far-because it fits the culture and the paradigm.  As I said, there's no Admiral Yi in Battletech, and no room for one in the fiction (Nor an equivalent to Horatio Nelson).  The closest we get to have, is Admiral Beresick, who's more or less a Drachinifel copy (go to Youtube, look up Drachinifel's channel...)

aka an historian who gets to play with what he's been studying in theory...but not too much, nor with too free a hand due to the inherent limitations he has to cope with, including partial or edited records written by men dead centuries before he was born, who may have been influenced by their career options, rather than hard facts.

Career options, at the mercy of a surface warfare  heavy equipment operator.

Tribal knowledge is shockingly unlikely to survive generatons of non-use, and it's really no better for the Clans in that respect.  as I posited,  actual Elite Naval officers from 3067 are probably at best equivalent to low-tier regulars from 2690, though they may have more simulator time and nicer tools.

A lot of Navy functions in the Clans, for example, weren't practiced or done over their 200 some odd years, because their system and structure didn't allow for or require it-that knowledge gets LOST, meanwhile the Inner Sphere hasn't "Navied" since the 1st succession war in any real sense, so again, those functions, those skillsets, end up LOST, and what's left, is whatever was fashionable among ground bound command staffs of the previous era-because that's what gets written down in a textbook.

"Lost technology" isn't just equipment, it's methodology and the tasks that equipment existed to carry out, the methods of use, the UNWRITTEN methods that made the grand theory make sense, or the workarounds for those cases where the grand theory was made of bollux.

[glitterboy2098]

In regards to the poll question itself.. i voted refit the Fox class. Its more logistically simple than retooling for a new design, and while the result is not as efficient at schlepping dropships as a larger jumpship would be, the fact that it is a warship gives it extra utility.

I've actually written up proposals for a 'block II' refit that would fix some of the more egregious flaws (such as the weapon layout) while optimizing it more round being an armed transport/transport group escort.
a version regularizing the weapons and adding some utility features

and a version with reduced thrust and more fighter capacity to focus more on the armored transport function.

[Takiro]

I think the Fox was an important first step in the redevelopment of Capital Ships but she is destined for an accelerated service life. As soon as possible the Fox Class would be reassigned to transport support and training duties (NAIS Cadre, NAMA, and perhaps a Lyran equivalent?), in other words an auxiliary role, as new ships of line came into service with the AFFC. I think the Ship still has its uses, but it was not meant to be a long running Ship of the Line but rather a Pathfinder design to set the stage for a new FedCom Navy.

I believe we could further supplement the Fox in reserve service with salvaged vessels (Lyran and Davion) much as the Free Worlds League has done with the assistance of the Word of Blake. ComStar could be useful in assisting in this Restoration Program as establishing a well-armed fleet would help stave off the Clan threat. I'd recommended targeting only the following seven Classes for such renovation as they were produced most recently (yes, 500 years ago!) and may exist in sufficient numbers to repair. They'd serve as powerful legacy vessels in the new FedCom Navy providing necessary support for a new modern Combat Navy.
Mako class Corvette (200,000 tons) {LCAF}
Robinson class Transport (500,000 tons) {AFFS}
Davion II class Destroyer (580,000 tons) {AFFS}
Commonwealth II class Light Cruiser (700,000 tons) {LCAF}
Congress class Frigate (760,000 tons) {AFFS}
Tharkad class Battlecruiser (900,000 tons) {LCAF}
New Syrtis class Carrier (920,000 tons) {AFFS}

In regard to the rest of the existing warship program real progress must first be made on the Durendal (?) after appeasing our Lyran Social Admirals with the revised Mjolnir (3061). The Covenant (3063?) is an excellent addition to the Navy which could be built upon further in order to augment the Cruiser classes which along with the Avalon (3061) are clearly the largest asset of the AFFC Navy. I contend a speedy Corvette/Raider should follow rapidly replacing the Fox which should be discontinued from production thereafter. A Battleship/Flag Ship vessel would follow hopefully entering service before a renewed Clan invasion in 3067.
Durendal class Destroyer (? tons) [Galax?, drawing board]
Avalon class Cruiser (770,000 tons) Kathil
Covenant class Cruiser (790,000 tons) New Syrtis
Mjolnir class Battlecruiser (1,250,000 tons) Alarion

[Hellraiser]

I think the Fox is an important first step in the redevelopment of Capital Ships but she is destined for an accelerated service life. As soon as possible the Fox Class would be reassigned to transport support and training duties (NAIS Cadre?), in other words an auxiliary role, as new ships of line came into service with the AFFC. I think the Ship still has its uses but it was not meant to be a long running Ship of the Line but rather a Pathfinder design to set the stage for a new FedCom Navy.

I agree w/ the intent of the Fox, it was a starter ship.
Not sure about it being reassigned to auxiliary roles, I think it stays attached to the Army doing what it does.

But I do think if we ever got to see the Durendal & later models to have the FC get more than 2 ships each, you probably wouldn't see it as part of the Naval Assault forces so often.
This is of course assuming any ship ever came close to the Fox in total Production #s with 20+ in a decade.

[Takiro]

I agree w/ the intent of the Fox, it was a starter ship.
Not sure about it being reassigned to auxiliary roles, I think it stays attached to the Army doing what it does.

But I do think if we ever got to see the Durendal & later models to have the FC get more than 2 ships each, you probably wouldn't see it as part of the Naval Assault forces so often.
This is of course assuming any ship ever came close to the Fox in total Production #s with 20+ in a decade.

I've amended my fleet plan and I agree. Just figured everything is roughly the same and the Fox remained in production with perhaps two dozen entering service in total.
I just

[Hellraiser]

Mako class Corvette (200,000 tons) {LCAF}
Robinson class Transport (500,000 tons) {AFFS}
Davion II class Destroyer (580,000 tons) {AFFS}
Commonwealth II class Light Cruiser (700,000 tons) {LCAF}
Congress class Frigate (760,000 tons) {AFFS}
Tharkad class Battlecruiser (900,000 tons) {LCAF}
New Syrtis class Carrier (920,000 tons) {AFFS}

Durendal class Destroyer (? tons) [Galax?, drawing board]
Avalon class Cruiser (770,000 tons) Kathil
Covenant class Cruiser (790,000 tons) New Syrtis
Mjolnir class Battlecruiser (1,250,000 tons) Alarion

I love some of the original FC historical ships and wouldn't mind seeing some of then reborn but none of that seemed to be on the drawing board in canon.

That said, when I look at what exists already, much of that is covered.

The Fox clearly replaces the Robinson in role.
The Commonwealth/Congress & even Covenant are all mostly covered by the Avalon.
The Mjolnir can overpower the Tharkad & New Syrtis.

We don't have a "Fast Corvette" as you mentioned but the raw speed of the Avalon & Mjolnir means the fleet is anything but slow.

So what are we missing, lack, in terms of the original &/or need to expand on.

1.  Well, a Destroyer sized ship obviously.
2.  Internal Cargo  (Made up for by added the large # of Colars)
3.  The Fighters of the New Syrtis  (Slightly made up for by colars as well.)

When it comes to the Durendal, as I've mentioned before, I've built it as a Davion-II type vessel, but also built it as a War-Monolith type ship too w/ like 8 colars.
Either option is possible given what the FS has shows us historically.
Adding a bit of "York/Riga" to it would also help out in the lack of NewSyrtis/Carrier abilities.

I think the biggest thing the FC navy needs is a "Block-II" with minor "tweaks" to the existing 3 ships.
You don't need to build them from the ground up again, the SI could be lower but for simplicity, I'd probably not touch engines, SI, or colars.
Instead, the Weapons, Armor, Smallcraft could all be tweaked to pay for some deeper Cargo & adding LFBs to the Mjolnir.

Optimizing the guns for Bracket & Anti-Fighter solutions & consolidating the Standard Scale weapons, & adding defensive Screens/AMS would all be fairly minor tweaks.
Launching a "York-onolith" type Destroyer/Carrier & ramping up all shipyard to just grow the #s would be nice.
The LA managed 2 Mjolnir (1.5 really) in the time the FWL kicked out 7? of their SuperCarriers.
That doesn't seem right to me.
Now obviously a lot of that had to do w/ the split & boot strapping the program historically, but a united FC that still ended up with the Mjolnir (BC) wouldn't have those issues.


Ideally you see the shipyards expanded to something like this...

Galax = Fox-II + Durendal
Kathil = Fox-II + Avalon-II
New Syrtis = Fox-II + Mjolnir-II
Alarion = Fox-II + Avalon-II + Mjolnir-II

With Fox production being the most wide spread but also limited to say 1 slip/yard at each location while remaining are for the larger ships.

[Cannonshop]

I agree w/ the intent of the Fox, it was a starter ship.
Not sure about it being reassigned to auxiliary roles, I think it stays attached to the Army doing what it does.

But I do think if we ever got to see the Durendal & later models to have the FC get more than 2 ships each, you probably wouldn't see it as part of the Naval Assault forces so often.
This is of course assuming any ship ever came close to the Fox in total Production #s with 20+ in a decade.

I disagree to an extent, the Fox isn't so much a 'Starter ship' as it is a platonic example of an armed transport ship for a ground military.

It should be one of the most commonly built ships in the AFFC/AFFS-as in, "No RCT should have to suffer without one".

why?

Because that's what your general staff thinks a navy is for.

Moving Troops from objective A, to objective B.

and protecting that movement.

the Avalon class fills the role of Flagship for a task-force or 'prestige ride' for the First Prince.  "Don't make me break out the Avalon"-iow it exists as a show-the-flag and threat, something to deploy if your Foxes are insufficient in crushing resistance, or when you want to remodel a planetary surface.

Again, to fit into demonstrated canon doctrine.

Multiple RCTs hitting the same planet? there's a Avalon being the anvil for the foxes.

figure a one-to-four ratio.

you'll still end up with a big-ass fleet you can't afford to pay for, but it'll have a doctrine-and having a doctrine is still better, even if it's a poor one, than not having a doctrine.

Most of the roles AFFS are demonstrably interested in beyond that, can be handled by lots of standard jumpships with dropships in support.

at least, until the first time the AFFS fleet meets someone who's actually invested in Navy tasks over being a taxi-service for the Army.

which is unlikely, but could happen.

Their logical next step, is a step down from the Fox-at least, in tonnage, something that can be produced in larger quantities and fill patrol, intelligence, convoy escort/interdiction, and training roles.

[Daryk]

Exactly!  A corvette... ;D

[Cannonshop]

Exactly!  A corvette... ;D

A corvette force is the logical step for MOST Inner Sphere navies-especially if they're translating from a Dropship force.  It's not just the tonnage, or the coverage, it's the need to develop methods and infrastructure.  A Dreadnought you can't fuel but in three ports is mostly useless, as is one you can't sustain crewing because there aren't enough available officers with the training to crew it is ALSO going to be a force deficit.

If you can lose your entire warship force in a single fight involving fewer ships than you can count on one hand, it's not an asset, it's an expensive luxury, one that is probably drawing resources from actual assets you could be building or using. (see: FSS Lucien Davion at Palmyra, or any of the remnant fleets outside the Clans for an example of a 'fleet' that is outright worthless.)

particularl at "Navy" tasks.  Your navy needs two things to be not-a-waste-of-cash:

1. Coverage.  That is, it does no good at all if your fleet units are unable to respond or react because moving them will expose your critical bits.  It doesn't matter HOW GOOD the individual ships are, if they're so few, that they may as well be one-off trophies.  Even the best tech doesn't let one ship occupy two positions at t he same time.

2. Sustainability.  Your fleet is worthless if you can't maintain it, if you can't replace losses or absorb them.  If you can't afford to lose a ship, you can't afford to field it.

[AlphaMirage]

I'm still pro Destroyer, a ship optimized for destroying Fighters, Dropships, and Missiles would be best as those are still going to be the main threats for any Fleet. Something more like the Baron but better. With fewer but more powerful lasers and a pair of dropships to make it a more versatile space combatant that doesn't need the deep bunkers of capital missiles an Avalon requires and can threaten a Thera Task Force or Clan Cruiser if necessary.

[Daryk]

The Baron is a pretty low bar to clear... ;D

[Cannonshop]

I'm still pro Destroyer, a ship optimized for destroying Fighters, Dropships, and Missiles would be best as those are still going to be the main threats for any Fleet. Something more like the Baron but better. With fewer but more powerful lasers and a pair of dropships to make it a more versatile space combatant that doesn't need the deep bunkers of capital missiles an Avalon requires and can threaten a Thera Task Force or Clan Cruiser if necessary.

a destroyer is better if you already have a skilled manpower pool familiar with the unique parts of warship operations, and a working logistica base to support it.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, here, but I am suggesting that learning to walk really well before taking on the boston marathon might be a good idea, which is why I, (and to an extent, Daryk) am arguing for a more or less 'corvette/small ship' navy-at least, at the start.  Developing the operational and institutional cultures, which are NOT the same as the existing institutional culture of the AFFS with its emphasis on ground combat and pretending to be Knights of some stripe.

MY view, is that an ideal 'starter ship' would be something between Bonaventure class, and Pinto.  Bonnies are very much optimized to tear up fighter wings and dropships as their primary when backing a larger ship, and have excellent comm and detection gear, the only real defect for using them as a backbone, is lack of big-scale capital firepower. 

But they're cheap, and they DO have SOME, and they'd be adequate escorts for Foxes and bigger ships (it was, iirc, fighter wings that took down FSS Lucien Davion over Palmyra), especially if our hypothetical modded bonnie has a bigger fighter bay.

Structurally, the proportions should be somewhere between 4 and 6 light corvettes for every 'leader' (heavy corvette like  a Fox, or destroyer), with four to six Destroyers per light/standard Cruiser, four to six Cruisers per Battleship or Battlecruiser, and there's your wall of battle for the big, fancy engagements.  When you're not holding big, fancy (budget destroying) engagements, that many corvettes can provide regional security work (esp. if your alternate is running in an era before the Devs nerfed the shit out of black boxes), patrol, assist search and rescue in lesser systems, or engage in antipiracy investigation/pirate or bandit suppression, and roving commerce enforcement-the kind of jobs that CREATE highly skilled crews and officers.

sitting in simulators, does not.

Those 'sundry tasks' are what develops crews and develops your officers from shave-tails out of the Academy, into hard-nosed commanders and leaders.  You WANT your navy doing them when it's not pounding eighteen kinds of shit out of the neighbors. 

Why the stepped layout? because it provides your national forces with Strategic flexibility-that is, the ability to influence conflict across interstellar regions.

it also lets you provide scaled response tactically.  A 'frigate group' would've beaten the Dracs to a pulp at Palmyra and probably weighed less than the Avalon that got shot down there (while costing less to repair or replace, with less delay, because you're not having to build a whole goddam 1.5 to 2 million tons of warship all at once).

Each warship, even cheap ones, represents a hefty amount of national resources, a corvette/frigate navy makes the most efficient use of those resources-at least, at the start, because it can, for the same resources, cover more territory and more roles simultaneously, while building up the officers you NEED for the bigger stuff (Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships...).

it also lets you get rid of those imbeciles who think turning billions of [currency] into manned kinetic missiles? without losing nearly as much of the public's money (or royal treasury).

Further, they let you experiment with techniques without invalidating the entire rest of your navy's mission.  Got ten Corvettes and a new 'thing' for warships that may or may not work? It's a hell of a lot less risky to test it on a corvette, than it is to devote that relic battleship you can't build a replacement for for the next ten years to testing the same gear.

Corvette forces can do other things-they let you hit the enemy where he's not expecting it, when he has low reason to expect it (for example, while he's waging a major campaign in another system) without risking your entire naval force.

There's also the positional advantage of being able to envelop an enemy formation into a killing sack.  What's a killing sack? it's like a killing box, but it's flexible, you postion multiple ships at multple angles and match vectors to hold the enemy under your guns while presumably being harder to hit because you're at the edge of his big gun's range and sticking there.

and, there's the shitty trick of 'fleet in being'-that is, the enemy has godhammered your big combatants, but you've got these littler ships, and his invasion force isn't safe if he can't dispatch those too-so you retreat JUST slow enough that he pursues, and pursues. and pursues.  a bigger ship CAN do it, but it's proportional-four littler ships can spread out so that when his escorting units are drawn out, you pick them apart piecemeal.  If he concentrates, he's forced to stay relative-stationary and you can hit something else he cares about, if he pursues, he's at risk of losing units he can't afford to lose-as happens if HE spreads out-because you can draw him into situations where he may have over-all superiority, but you've got it locally.  enough of those and you can eat a bigger force the same way a child eats an elephant-one bite at a time.

Navies that Ram don't get to play that game, because they die gloriously instead.

Further...

Smaller ships are easier to repair, they're also easier to resupply, without leaving their patrol zones unprotected or undefended or unmonitored.  This elminates opportunities for the other side, and forces him into a situation where even wins are a degradation on capability when you do it right.

[Wrangler]

The steer the subject back to focus on what type of ship should be part of the fleet, I like a little diversity in navies. I hate it for the fact that we're barely any more than one or two types of ships in the BattleTech universe as of 3067 never mind not enough to count on one hand.

However just as aesthetic, the upgraded Fox Corvette would probably be the best. It's economical, you could probably upgrade to a better weapons, and ultimately produce them in serial production.  Which would allow them to be upkept since they're oversized drop ships really and they shouldn't be treated like they have exotic engines they're just oversized engines for their in system movement.

That said if a larger ship should be chosen, they should go with a frigate versus a destroyer. I think some folks forget, that in BattleTech frigates are larger than destroyers like they were before the 1970s and the real navies. So they're more likely to have drop collars, where destroyers don't generally have any.

You're better off playing in your own Universe then hoping the hell Canon would allow more ships made because of the current issues with the gaming system allegedly being broken. Frankly, I don't think they care because it's a BattleMech centric universe which is kind of pisses me off a little bit.

[Hellraiser]

I disagree to an extent, the Fox isn't so much a 'Starter ship' as it is a platonic example of an armed transport ship for a ground military.

......

Their logical next step, is a step down from the Fox-at least, in tonnage, something that can be produced in larger quantities and fill patrol, intelligence, convoy
escort/interdiction, and training roles.

1.  Honestly, having your Starter be something that is an "Armed Transport" isn't entirely a bad thing.
It can be handed over to the Army & used exactly as planned.
It's also not a bad "Taskforce" ship in the 3050/60's when most Taskforces are a Warship surrounded by Jump/Dropships.

2.  In an ideal world I don't disagree that a "proper" corvette is a must have v/s an "Army Transport".
But at the same time, I'm looking to work w/ what we have in canon or planned for in canon.
The Suns have never had a Corvette & the Durendal is something that was planned for & they have a history as a Destroyer Navy with the Davion-I/II.

I'm still pro Destroyer, a ship optimized for destroying Fighters, Dropships, and Missiles would be best as those are still going to be the main threats for any Fleet. Something more like the Baron but better. With fewer but more powerful lasers and a pair of dropships to make it a more versatile space combatant that doesn't need the deep bunkers of capital missiles an Avalon requires and can threaten a Thera Task Force or Clan Cruiser if necessary.

Agreed on Destroy, not on the Baron.
As I mentioned above, I'm more thinking a Davion-II/York type vessel, possibly with some Monolith thrown it since the FC seems to have a thing for Docking Collars these days.
I wouldn't be opposed to it being a smaller Destroyer since the Monolith idea originally came to me in a "using 3025 JS yards" post Jihad.
Something the size of a Vincent/Monolith that can be made at a JS sized shipyard isn't a bad idea for resources.

[Minemech]

 The problem with designing an upscaled jolly rogers as your first ship is that the lessons learned from it will be rather limited in scope--this will impact the design process further down the road. Both the Impavido and Kyushu tried to be a bit bolder and both had their own flaws. Arguably the Impavido held up best and remains the simplest and easiest to upgrade to an appropriate standard. The Kyushu is a complicated story...

[Cannonshop]

1.  Honestly, having your Starter be something that is an "Armed Transport" isn't entirely a bad thing.
It can be handed over to the Army & used exactly as planned.
It's also not a bad "Taskforce" ship in the 3050/60's when most Taskforces are a Warship surrounded by Jump/Dropships.

2.  In an ideal world I don't disagree that a "proper" corvette is a must have v/s an "Army Transport".
But at the same time, I'm looking to work w/ what we have in canon or planned for in canon.
The Suns have never had a Corvette & the Durendal is something that was planned for & they have a history as a Destroyer Navy with the Davion-I/II.

Agreed on Destroy, not on the Baron.
As I mentioned above, I'm more thinking a Davion-II/York type vessel, possibly with some Monolith thrown it since the FC seems to have a thing for Docking Collars these days.
I wouldn't be opposed to it being a smaller Destroyer since the Monolith idea originally came to me in a "using 3025 JS yards" post Jihad.
Something the size of a Vincent/Monolith that can be made at a JS sized shipyard isn't a bad idea for resources.

1) I agree-it shows your military has a Doctrine.  Having a doctrine is better than not having one and just tossing whatever random thing comes up into the TRO.  Unfortunately, after the Fox, the idea of "these should work together and do things" was forgotten in the rush to make them all extinct again.

But let's fantasize a world where the writers weren't trying to make warships go away before the ink was dry, and actually tried to make Faction Naval that made sense.

Let's begin with the Fox, an Armed Transport designed in an era where the last time anyone seriously considered Naval warfare was a few centuries ago.

it begins with the recognition: "We gotta get our officers from somewhere, and this thing is almost like a really big dropship that can't land.."

It's a good recognition, it's realistic.  Admirals don't get a lot of say in the AFFC, it's a 'Mechwarrior's club, so your first thing to get budgeted? Had better service the 'mechwarriors.

And that begins your doctrinal development, because once you HAVE a few, you start discovering the other jobs, because when those jobs get done, life is a lot easier for the 'mechwarriors.

Logically, bigger isn't the direction to go, because you have limited yards that can handle something of or near that size.  For a while, then, if your Navy is progressing logically, you begin with the Foxes, and start down-sizing so you can leverage smaller (Jumpship size) yards, engine components, hardware, anything you can grab 'off the shelf' (like, say, those podded engines off the Mammoth.)  This, is so your Naval guys who are actually THINKING 'Navy' can get ships built that aren't "Yeah, but it's just a transport".

So your first 'follow-on' would be a lighter fox, which can cruise for longer, but isn't as good for transport-it is, however, good for 'we can build this without as much hassle because it uses less of all these (insert name) strategic materials, shipyard time, etc. and we can CREW it without stripping Transport Command's dropship officers to the bone..."

Because that's actually a thing-your Unions, Overlords, etc. etc. have officers and crew too, and guess who the 'mechwarriors are going to want to keep between an Avalon, and someone competent to fly their ride to the surface?

So, fewer crew per hull? Probably something to be thinking about.  Certainly the Generals are going to be thinking about it, and the wannabee Admirals are ALSO thinking about it, because bigger ships means more officers on fewer assets-which isn't great for your Navy's OTHER jobs.

So, start with the Fox, then, you go to a downsized Fox, maybe call it a 'Fennec' or something, 'Kit Fox' maybe, because procurement agencies LOVE themes.

Roll forward about ten years, you've NOW got a cadre of officers who've spent half a decade or more on actual warships, they know what they can't do, what they CAN do, and what they WANT to do.

Now, you give the base Fox design, a Stretch treatment.  Longer, because it's easier than building it bigger around.  This is logically your first actual new-build Cruiser, because it uses enough of the same parts the guy in charge of it knows what it can do.  roughly.  you apply your 'lessons learned' and maybe make the armament less of a grab-bag, add a couple more collars, fit some point defenses because it's a Cruiser or Frigate, or expand the carrier wing (or all the above) but your fundamental is it should be using the same basic materials and a multiple of the same basic machinery-only more of it, because the ship's bigger.

But it WORKS because your captain/admiral doesn't have a whole grab-bag colletion of NEW weapons to learn what they can do, and you've tested everything you're installing in Foxes or 'Kit foxes', with field trials and field use.

It's still not 'Glamorous god of the spaceways' but it's a lot closer, and it's also going to be somewhat free of rookie mistakes at that point.

When you're talking Billions of C-bills of Royal/taxpayer property, that's kind of important.  (In canon, of course, AFFC didn't bother to use logic, they had Nu Toyz instead.)

Your 'learning Cruiser' design lets your now-experienced admiralty with some clue about what they're doing, actually start thinking about "Well, what should the next one be like?" and testing the gear on your production hulls to figure out what nifty new tecky things work and should be included in the next refit/design.

Meanwhile, it's actually producible, because most of the working bits are already in the supply chain, you already have contractors who know how to make them, crew are easier to train on the stuff because it's standardized, modificaitons can be tracked and documented for improvements and mistakes can be marked down in the 'don't do this again guys' column.

It also shortens your development time, because your production machinery needs less modification to build it, yard crews less retraining time, which in turn makes the guys at the budget office slightly less unhappy with the adrenaline juiced upper class twits making procurement decisions.

This also allows your navy to grow a more sophisticated, realistic, or intelligent Doctrine, preferably one that tells young Naval officers that Ramming is an offense right up there with 'things that may make good people nauseous and will definitely get you cashiered and maybe executed for treason if the court martial board member's had a bad morning'.

So our hypothetical structure begins with modifying the Fox class-because that way you can reuse lessons learned and correct issues on an existing product (wayyy cheaper than clean sheeting it).

It lowers your maintenance and upkeep costs, improves your training and 'readiness rate', and builds competency in the service.

Competence also builds Confidence.  this is kinda useful to have, confidence means when your admiralty suggests something, the Generals might actually say "yah, that sounds like it might be a good idea' instead of 'are you sure we can't do that with a dropship?'

Confidence impacts funding, oversight, lack of oversight, priority in resupply, priority of support, access to better recruitment candidates, etc.

It's probably the single biggest potential reason nobody rebuilt their naval forces after the FCCW, forget the Jihad, the FCCW demonstrated that nobody knew what to do, or what they were doing with, these extremely expensive assets.

if anything, the Jihad era underscored it and thus, why dead shipyards weren't replaced and nobody invested in rebuilding that industry in the canon-why spend the megabillions when it's going to be used for a battering ram by some jackass who doesn't know what he's doing? better to invest in the Dropship arm, where at least, if they're dumb the ground officers can pull the choke chain.

Building up logically and you avoid that outcome...at least, in the longer term.

[Lagrange]

My two bits: The Fox as designed is a pretty convincing assault transport.  In particular, a Fox can jump into a hot jump point, divest dropships, take a few hits, and then do a preprogrammed jump out.  If you ask yourself "what is the best system for doing this", the answer may not be very different from a Fox.  If you go smaller the cost overhead of a warship eats you alive.  And of course larger is ever more expensive with a serious 'to many eggs in one basket' issue.

The problem with the Fox, in my mind, is the choice of available dropships.  Instead of investing in modifications to the Fox (which can of course use some improvement), investing in dropship designs seems advisable.  I'm personally fond of 100 kiloton carrier dropships mounting something in the range of a half-Thera ASF complement with a 7/11 movement profile costing about 2B.  There are limits to large scale dropships---you really don't want them landing on a world where they are a huge sitting duck.  But, with some effort, you can use large scale transports in highly survivable ways to create an extremely capable invasion force off a Fox's 5 complements.  Loaded up with 5x 100kiloton transports, the Fox is an adaptable (since you can choose the dropship loadout depending on mission) and formidable jump transport capable of supporting an entire invasion on its own.  Thus, investing in large scale dropships using an engine slightly smaller than the Fox maximizes the value of the existing investment. 

In terms of alternative warships, I'd consider a large 5/8 raider warship with no dropships to be an interesting complement.  That would enable interesting and different strategies from the Fox-assault approach discussed above.  However, you don't need many of these in a navy.   Thus, my overall proposal would be a mixture of these two.

[Hellraiser]

Now, you give the base Fox design, a Stretch treatment.  Longer, because it's easier than building it bigger around.  This is logically your first actual new-build Cruiser, because it uses enough of the same parts the guy in charge of it knows what it can do.  roughly.  you apply your 'lessons learned' and maybe make the armament less of a grab-bag, add a couple more collars, fit some point defenses because it's a Cruiser or Frigate, or expand the carrier wing (or all the above) but your fundamental is it should be using the same basic materials and a multiple of the same basic machinery-only more of it, because the ship's bigger.

.....

Meanwhile, it's actually producible, because most of the working bits are already in the supply chain, you already have contractors who know how to make them, crew are easier to train on the stuff because it's standardized, modificaitons can be tracked and documented for improvements and mistakes can be marked down in the 'don't do this again guys' column.

.....

So our hypothetical structure begins with modifying the Fox class-because that way you can reuse lessons learned and correct issues on an existing product (wayyy cheaper than clean sheeting it).

1.  This is an interesting point about parts overlap and something I've done a lot of when designing custom ships.
My Durendals almost always use 90% weapons that I've seen used on the Fox/Avalon first & then maybe something from the Mjolnir or historic FS Ships.
Stuff that I know the Suns should in theory have access too.
Ditto if I'm working off some SLDF era yard for another ship from said manufacturer.


2.  All 3 of the FC ships have entirely too many "different toys" on them & could use some "Cameron-ing" when it comes to weapon selection, IE, you don't need multiple gauges of the same weapon class, ....   NL, NPPC, NAC, NGR, CPM.
1 size of gun in 3-4 classes will get the job done just fine.

[Hellraiser]

My two bits: The Fox as designed is a pretty convincing assault transport.  In particular, a Fox can jump into a hot jump point, divest dropships, take a few hits, and then do a preprogrammed jump out.  If you ask yourself "what is the best system for doing this", the answer may not be very different from a Fox.  If you go smaller the cost overhead of a warship eats you alive.  And of course larger is ever more expensive with a serious 'to many eggs in one basket' issue.

The problem with the Fox, in my mind, is the choice of available dropships.  Instead of investing in modifications to the Fox (which can of course use some improvement), investing in dropship designs seems advisable.  I'm personally fond of 100 kiloton carrier dropships mounting something in the range of a half-Thera ASF complement with a 7/11 movement profile costing about 2B.  There are limits to large scale dropships---you really don't want them landing on a world where they are a huge sitting duck.  But, with some effort, you can use large scale transports in highly survivable ways to create an extremely capable invasion force off a Fox's 5 complements.  Loaded up with 5x 100kiloton transports, the Fox is an adaptable (since you can choose the dropship loadout depending on mission) and formidable jump transport capable of supporting an entire invasion on its own.  Thus, investing in large scale dropships using an engine slightly smaller than the Fox maximizes the value of the existing investment. 

In terms of alternative warships, I'd consider a large 5/8 raider warship with no dropships to be an interesting complement.  That would enable interesting and different strategies from the Fox-assault approach discussed above.  However, you don't need many of these in a navy.   Thus, my overall proposal would be a mixture of these two.

1.  The only real issue I've ever had w/ the Fox itself is minor nitpicks about weapons choices & maybe having "too much" SI.

I'd have probably limited the SI on my "starter" ship to 80-95 range.  Armor type being IFA isn't ideal when FC seemed to be the Norm/Most Common of the 4 naval armor types even if it's not the "best".  But no one can say the Fox isn't well armored for it's size, its a brick of a Corvette, hell, its a brick as a Destroyer.

No, my problems have been little things... the 10* NAC10s isn't a good use of tonnage on such a small frame, less NACs over all &/or using some slightly bigger guns.
For similar firepower & layout I'd use 8* NAC20s & save a few tons for more overall firepower.
Ideally for a ship that size I'd use 6* NAC20's in only 2 bays (Either Fore/Aft Sides) and then use NLs in the other "quarter/side".
The 2 different NLs is also annoying, logistically just go w/ NL45's since this is a small ship.
Barracudas are nice but AR10's would have been better for sheer versatility.
Finally the MGs.... in the same arcs as AMS but didn't get slotted in as added AMS, so ... very... ODD.
No issues at all w/ the Quad LPLs, its solid Anti-Fighter defense there.

Overall, the only thing the Fox needs is a "Reskin" to change some weapons around.

Well, and a few more shuttle bays but then again, if your devoting 2 of your Collars to a Vengeance + Mammoth as part of your taskforce, then, you've got some spare shuttles there.

*****

2.  I'm not sure I see a Behemoth sized anything as super realistic since any DS that sized is fluffed as being really rare.
Also the Thera was known to bankrupt the ASF fleets of the FWL being difficult to field that many on a single platform & stripping fighters from other formations.
So even having them at 1/2 a Thera but on a more common DS model isn't realistic for any faction's production ability of ASF.
Besides the Vengeance is already pretty rare, I'd work on getting more of them in production & bringing back the Titan to production.
You can always group up a few if you need an Aero-Brigade but otherwise a Regiment is plenty for most anything & can be split up into different locations.

*****

3.  After years looking at 2/3 & 5/8+ ships, none of them impresses me.   3/4 & 4/6 are truly the sweet spots for Warships.
There are already "Real Life" limitations on what a WS Crew should be able to handle even if there is no "Game Rule" for High-G body stress.
The 5/8 should only see use in short bursts in combat &, IMO, isn't a big enough edge over 4/6 to warrant the loss of tonnage for Guns, SI, &, Cargo.
The Avalon & Mjolnir at 4/6 seem to have "Speed" covered from what I see.

[Takiro]

I am intrigued by cannonshop's idea of a ‘MechBoat Navy’ created by a bunch of ‘Mech Heads’ as a design philosophy. I could really see this as the AFFC's next step in combined arms warfare, now with Warships!

I do wonder how the Lyrans sticking around in this scenario given us would somehow mitigate this ‘Mech-Headed’ Navy??

More importantly, however, maybe the time in which we are going into (circa 3063) has something to do with our next creations.

The Overlord A3 is the first Warship Escort, or Missile Boat as I called them, fitted with Capital Missiles that indicates a definite new direction in Naval philosophy. Introduced in 3058 these fierce new Dropships should be combined with one of the InnerSphere's best weapons against the Clans, the Aerospace Fighters.

With Fighters, or at least their pilots, being on par with their Clan counterparts during the invasion despite a massive technological advantage Aerospace Superiority is something any InnerSphere power should build on. With upgrades to fighter designs coming on line at the time and a definite numerical advantage over the Clans continuing to exist for the foreseeable future I think our next design choice does become clearer.

The Durendal as a next generation Star League Riga or Clan York that would serve as an Escort Carrier type Destroyer with max dropship capacity and a large fighter complement. I’d probably put her in the 600k ton displacement range.

Amazingly this quantity over quality approach would now have me retain the Fox at least until a complete fleet is realized by the FedCom. Keep the along with the Avalon and the larger canon version of the Mjolnir (increased in size this time to appease Lyran traditionalists) giving us a nice core four classes that hopefully start to come together to form a rapidly growing AFFC Navy that has smaller warships than its Clan counterparts but will hopefully be able to overwhelm them in 3067.