Author Topic: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?  (Read 985 times)

Charistoph

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Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« on: 18 May 2024, 22:06:12 »
So, I just listened to Mage Leader go over Crimson Skies on YouTube, and I remember the game, both tabletop and video.  Had, played, and enjoyed the latter, but did not ever get anything for the tabletop.

A lot of people have been saying that the aerospace rules are a mess.  I'm not going to argue that, as I find them a bit hard to deal with.

That being said, if possible, would it be worth resurrecting Crimson Skies to work out how to do the Air part of Aerospace rules for Battletech and make them effective?
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Prospernia

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #1 on: 18 May 2024, 22:26:25 »
Which Aerospace rules are a mess?  Like, the original box-set?  Battletech-Compendium?

I don't see a problem with Crimson-Skies; I've converted Star-Wars to Aerotech and it worked just fine. 

SteelRaven

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #2 on: 20 May 2024, 19:27:50 »
Crimson Skies was it's own game focusing on air units, Aerospace has always tried to meld the main BT ground game with air combat and space combat while not taking away anything from the ground combat.

Imagine if Crimson Skies added tanks and infantry but then had to make it so the air unit couldn't just strafe and bomb the ground units making them useless. At the same time, make sure the AA ground units wont destroy the existing air unit game.

Most solutions for Aerotech seem to be make it it's own game, which makes perfect sense but BT fans seem to love using all the toys in one game.     
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Hellraiser

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #3 on: 20 May 2024, 20:09:09 »
Most solutions for Aerotech seem to be make it it's own game, which makes perfect sense but BT fans seem to love using all the toys in one game.   

Put me in the camp of split them.
I mean, sure bombs & strafing are nice, but the only times I've ever played AT it was MUCH easier when you didn't essentially have 2 different fights going on.

Freely admit to having minimal experience.

Never played w/ a WS  (sadly)

3 Games

DS Strafing Mechs (Atmosphere)
6v4 ASF  (Atmosphere)
Fighters v/s Fighters/DS  (Space)

What I really like about the BM "Support" Rules is its a way to bring in AT w/o playing AT.
But in turn, I love the idea of actual SPACE FLEET battles.  Warships are Awesome,  Squadrons are Cool.
Trying to have ASF conduct a game at the same time BM are having a game...meh,  too complicated
Too much space required, can't fit in enough ground maps as it is on the table & play on overly small areas.

But hey, that's just IMO, only tried it once, was fun but would NOT want to do that ever again & certainly not with Both Sides having Air Power contesting the skies.
More fun to play an AT game one weekend to determine air support for a Mech game the next weekend, IMO.

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Luciora

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #4 on: 20 May 2024, 22:20:25 »
OG Renegade was set up in a way that 1 Leviathan turn was like 10 Interceptor turns and 1 interceptor turn was like 5 Centurion turns.   It was a giant clockwork cog.  I'm sure I'm misremembering it however. 

thedancingjoker

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #5 on: 21 May 2024, 01:46:45 »
I love Battletech, and I love the concept of Aerospace battles in the setting.  But I agree splitting them up would probably be the best option for both systems.  Have a Battlefield-Support-Like rule for bombing/strafing runs, some rules for Air defense by ground targets to negate such and then leave all the rest of Aerospace for its own game.

CJC070

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #6 on: 21 May 2024, 09:46:41 »
I love Battletech, and I love the concept of Aerospace battles in the setting.  But I agree splitting them up would probably be the best option for both systems.  Have a Battlefield-Support-Like rule for bombing/strafing runs, some rules for Air defense by ground targets to negate such and then leave all the rest of Aerospace for its own game.

Since they have Battlefield Support Cards it would work.  I know that Aerospace is in the lower end of their “what needs to work on” totem pole but using established rules can negate a huge chunk of the work load.

Charistoph

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #7 on: 21 May 2024, 09:49:42 »
Since they have Battlefield Support Cards it would work.  I know that Aerospace is in the lower end of their “what needs to work on” totem pole but using established rules can negate a huge chunk of the work load.

The problem is countering them without a lucky or possibly wasteful draw.  Artillery there isn't much you can do, as most are off-screen, however with Aerospace, they are right there.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #8 on: 21 May 2024, 13:50:15 »
The problem is countering them without a lucky or possibly wasteful draw.  Artillery there isn't much you can do, as most are off-screen, however with Aerospace, they are right there.

Right there on a strafe sure, but High Altitude Bombing is a thing, so its not always easy to see & counterfire.
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Charistoph

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #9 on: 21 May 2024, 14:57:52 »
Right there on a strafe sure, but High Altitude Bombing is a thing, so its not always easy to see & counterfire.

Easy to see?  Quite easy.  After all, if you can see to Attack, you can see to Shoot back.

Range on counter-fire, I will admit, can be a different story.  And the greater Elevation you have, the less accurate the bombs will be.  So if you're Bombing at an Altitude that doesn't allow you to be shot at anything but AC/2s and the like, you're just as likely to hit your fellows as nothing, even with the most expert of gunners.

Still, it's better odds than having a card drawn on you and told to just take it.
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Geg

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #10 on: 24 May 2024, 10:27:50 »
Most solutions for Aerotech seem to be make it it's own game, which makes perfect sense but BT fans seem to love using all the toys in one game.   

An air superiority game.  The winner of which gets Xs amount of BSP to use in the ground game.  Done and Done!

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #11 on: 24 May 2024, 10:58:45 »
An air superiority game.  The winner of which gets Xs amount of BSP to use in the ground game.  Done and Done!

Get the hell outta here with those reasonable solutions, this is BATTLETECH!  :laugh:
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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #12 on: 24 May 2024, 14:07:00 »
Put me in the camp of split them.
...
What I really like about the BM "Support" Rules is its a way to bring in AT w/o playing AT.
...
More fun to play an AT game one weekend to determine air support for a Mech game the next weekend, IMO.

An air superiority game.  The winner of which gets Xs amount of BSP to use in the ground game.  Done and Done!
Dats what I been sayin!     ^^^  This guy gets it

Get the hell outta here with those reasonable solutions, this is BATTLETECH!  :laugh:
LOL!

All we need is a table...   Like, IDK.... maybe.....
Draw  (+/- 10% BV) = 0 Air BSP
Marginal Victory  (+/- 30% BV) = 2 Air BSP
Decisive Victory  (+/- 50% BV) = 4 Air BSP
Wiped the Floor with them  (+/- 75% BV) = 6 Air BSP
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Pat Payne

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #13 on: 24 May 2024, 17:52:18 »
It's been a long time (I think I played it in the '90s or early 2000s) since I played Crimson Skies, so I can't really say anything about its compatibility with BattleTech, but one practical consideration: aren't the rights to it held by MicroSoft, IIRC?

Charistoph

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #14 on: 24 May 2024, 19:06:02 »
It's been a long time (I think I played it in the '90s or early 2000s) since I played Crimson Skies, so I can't really say anything about its compatibility with BattleTech, but one practical consideration: aren't the rights to it held by MicroSoft, IIRC?

The video game versions, like with Battletech, for sure.  I'm not sure sure about the Tabletop since WizKids did models just like they did Mechwarrior: Dark age.
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mbear

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #15 on: 18 June 2024, 13:24:14 »
If you really want to use another game to redo aerospace, it might make more sense to start with Leviathans since CGL owns the rights free and clear.

Might.

But I think Levs is more like WarShip combat, so I'm not sure it'd work. Maybe someone who's played both can weigh in.
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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #16 on: 18 June 2024, 14:50:52 »
I had a chance to play Leviathans on the weekend. First off - it was a lot of fun and I can see myself buying into the system.

As for using a similar system for BT War Ships, I can imagine the system being translated - not too big of a stretch - but there might need to be a few tweaks. Every ship has a movement value and a turn number which is how many hexes must be moved forward before a facing change. Alternatively, a ship can spend all its movement to turn in place to any facing. That would be a bit strange in a space game. There was no concept of inertia/momentum which you might want in a space combat game. The base game we played was on a plane with no vertical axis; I don't recall if there were advanced rules to introduce elevation. The system has fighters but we didn't play with them so I can't say how well that could represent Aerospace Fighters.

Ships have 4 "sides" - Port, Starboard, Fore, Aft - and all firing arcs and damage distribution are against those. A ship "side" has 6 damage locations (crew, engines, weapons, etc.) except for the largest battleships which have 12 locations on Port and Starboard. Each location has its own armor rating and if the rolled damage striking a location exceeds the armor, the location is destroyed. As locations are destroyed, subsequent damage hitting that location can result in a roll against the internal structure value and, if exceeded, results in destruction. As more locations are lost, an increasing positive modifier is applied on the roll against internal structure. There is no tracking of internal damage beyond a steady erosion of the single internal structure value (every roll against internal structure reduces the remaining structure by 1).

Dice are all 12-sided but with varying number distributions on different colors. e.g. I think Green were effectively 1d4. You decide if an attack is a single gun or multiple guns (to improve penetration chances), choose the dice appropriate to the weapons being fired (each weapon has a color), add a die (or potentially two and choose the best of them) for the crew (again of the appropriate color), add one or two dice for the target's movement/size, add a 6-sided die for hit location and roll everything. Check total against target armor at the rolled hit location.

Between turns, crew can attempt repair rolls against locations that were taken out on earlier turns (but not the just completed one).

Different ships can have different equipment such as different mixes of guns, turrets (with larger firing arcs), guns that hit multiple locations at once, extra armor, crew quality, engine sizes, etc. The Japanese ships in particular had some unique equipment but thankfully Christian was running those.

And that's really it in a nutshell. It's a very streamlined, fun, and logical system.

Charistoph

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #17 on: 18 June 2024, 15:09:29 »
If you really want to use another game to redo aerospace, it might make more sense to start with Leviathans since CGL owns the rights free and clear.

Might.

But I think Levs is more like WarShip combat, so I'm not sure it'd work. Maybe someone who's played both can weigh in.

Well, that's a path to possibly take, but as you said, it might fit Dropship or Warship level of combat much better.

I think Topps is good in only doing a Tabletop version of Crimson Skies as WizKids did their Clix version in the early odd years.  However, I don't know if their acquisition of Battletech and Shadowrun included all previous tabletop properties.  Does Topps/CGL have license on Earthdawn, too?

I mostly thought about Crimson Skies because it was largely focused on the individual planes while Leviathan is bigger, and because I saw a review of the old XBox/PC game right before posting this, and it brought back the memories.
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Geg

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #18 on: Today at 08:34:25 »
It's the three game problem:
  • The Warship Game
  • The Space Fighter / Dropship Game
  • The Atmospheric Fighter Game

With in the Atmospheric being the odd one out needing to be around Energy (speed and elevation) and turning radius, and it would be from this version that you get the Close Air Support for Mechs on the battlefield.  While the space games need vectors and velocity.  So you wind up with....
  • Star Wars Armada
  • X-Wing
  • Crimson Sky

And I highly doubt there is a sustained market for three additional games systems.  So at least two of them are going to wind up being short changed.


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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #19 on: Today at 08:49:08 »
Quick note: while Microsoft may own the IP to Crimson Skies, rules cannot be copyrighted, only their specific wording. If CGL wanted to use the Crimson Skies system in a hypothetical future AeroTech reboot, they could do so as long as they didn't use the exact wording found in the FASA title.
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thedancingjoker

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #20 on: Today at 09:39:04 »
Quick note: while Microsoft may own the IP to Crimson Skies, rules cannot be copyrighted, only their specific wording. If CGL wanted to use the Crimson Skies system in a hypothetical future AeroTech reboot, they could do so as long as they didn't use the exact wording found in the FASA title.

That is PROBABLY true, but would still be a huge court case and costs an insane ammount of money on lawyers to prove, espeically when up against Microsoft.

Charistoph

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #21 on: Today at 10:29:11 »
Quick note: while Microsoft may own the IP to Crimson Skies, rules cannot be copyrighted, only their specific wording. If CGL wanted to use the Crimson Skies system in a hypothetical future AeroTech reboot, they could do so as long as they didn't use the exact wording found in the FASA title.

Does Microsoft own the entire IP to Crimson Skies, though? 

It was a tabletop game first, and I thought MS only bought the video game IPs from FASA, not the tabletop.

That's why Topps is listed on the boxes and books for Battletech and Shadowrun, and CGL is running them.  Would not Crimson Skies also be in the same situation? 

WizKids put Crimson Skies in their Clix format.  Was MS a licensor for the Clix game?  Checking around, I don't see MS listed as a Copyright holder for it.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #22 on: Today at 11:05:54 »
MS owns the rights to the Computer Game as they do with Battletech/MechWarrior and ShadowRun (and do nothing with the title) I believe WK picked up the rights to the TTG as they did with Battletech/MechWarrior and ShadowRun but I'm not sure what happened to Crimson Skies after the WK game, I can't find a mention of it anywhere.
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Re: Crimson Skies and Aerotech?
« Reply #23 on: Today at 11:52:04 »
Crimson Skies was based on the rules of RL:Interceptor. Of course, I have no idea what the licensing rights for that are like, currently.