What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars

[chanman]

I just trawled through my old files, and there is an HM Aero design for an A-1.

My old PC works fine and has all the Heavy Metal programs, but it's crammed into an uncomfortable corner of the bedroom.

Here are the designs that have fluff (some duplicates across design rule versions). You can probably figure out which faction a design belongs to based on the name. There is some weirdness with stuff that gets more sci-fi like armoured trains, landships, and some experimental hardware

Fringe:
Peregrine
Swallow
Duster MK. I (light)
Duster Mk. II ADV
Bedouin
Greek Alphabet armoured train
Peacekeeper
HMLS Swift
HMLS Vanquisher
Land Dreadnought Incredulous
Leviathan
Leviathan IA
A-47 Morningstar

Fringe 2.0:
Santa's Sleigh
Sanger
Scorpion
ZT-1
BTR-90* series
BMD-3
M226 ADA
M7 Dalmation
Samaritan
Type 5
ZuG-24 Hind G
BTR-92* series
M230 Light AT
M9 Tomcat
Armoured Trailer
Abductor
Aspis
Blackfly
M5APC Herman Kangaroo
M5R6 Charlie
ASP-MBT
M5A2 Herman
M5W1 Protecteur
M5E11 Sgt Dixie
M5E9 Giovanni
M5H7 Fat Bastard
T-75
BTR-T
William Tell
BTR-T (HE)
Archer
Python
T-97UB (light)
Vickers Mark XI-S Private Venture
BTMP-11
BMP-T
BMPT-U
Calliope
T-97bis
T-91S
BTMP-11
Leopard 3A4 MBT
Sentinel
SU-130
Leopard 3A5 (Fusion) MBT
Leopard 3A5 Krupp
Leopard 3A6 MBT
T-77
Medina
Mobile Defence Tower (MDC)
Valourous class Patrol Craft
Lancer class Landship
AD-1E  Air Raider
AS7-D Atlas

Fringe 2.5:
Santa's Sleigh
Scimitar
Scorpion
BTR-900/901
Bedouin
M226
M226B
ZuG-24 Hind G/H
BTR-735
BTR-929
2S25 'Sprut'
BTR-931
Centauro
ASP-MBT
Ingwe TRAP
M5 Series
T-75
M19A1 Basilisk
T-75A
M19A3 Wyvren
Python
Vickers Mark XI Protector
Vickers Mark XI-S Private Venture
T-91S
SU-130B
T-77

And for the joke:
               BattleMech Technical Readout
                     Custom* Weapons

Type/Model:    Atlas AS7-D
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 3025
Config:        Biped BattleMech
Rules:         Level 3, Standard design

Mass:          100 tons
Chassis:       Foundation Type 10X Standard
Power Plant:   300 Vlar Fusion
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets:     None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type:    Durallex Heavy Special Standard
Armament:     
  6 Whirlwind-L 20mm Rapid Fire Cannon/2s*
  1 Deathgiver HV Cannon/20*
  1 Thunderstroke Guided Missile/AA*
  4 Doombud Guided Missile/Med.s*
  4 Metal Storm Claymore Anti-Personnel Pods
Manufacturer:  Various licensed corps
  Location:    Terra
Communications System:  Army Comm. Class 5
Targeting & Tracking System:  Army Corporation Type 29K

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
     The sight of BattleMechs lumbering across the terrain is a new and alien
one among the worlds of the Outer Fringe. Nevertheless, the sight of an AS7-D
Atlas still manages to make even experienced tank crew break out in a sweat
and brings the bitter taste of bile to their mouths.
     The Atlas was designed as a last-ditch attempt to ensure the superiority
of the Terran Powers' expeditionary forces over the growing armies of the most
powerful colonies.  It was an understandable, if very late reaction to the
Cameron rulings issued from 2751 to 2761 by the Terran Security Council, which
recognized the legitimacy of colonial armies. General Kerensky himself set
down the specifications for the Atlas. He said it should be "a walking avatar
of destruction as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as
ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally.  We
will call it the... Battlemech"

==Capabilities:==
     Ugly and foreboding are two apt descriptions for the Atlas. Though some
vehicles might be better armoured or heavier, none have the Atlas' aura.
Considerable effort went into making the Atlas' weapons as visible as
possible, giving an opposing illiterate conscript plenty of opportunity to see
that he is outgunned and to decide that he would rather be shot for desertion
rather than face down a physical manifestation of divine wrath. Designers
spent an entire year fashioning the head and cockpit to create a perfect
merging of function and gruesomeness. The result was a complete success, and
the MechWarriors that pilot the hulking machines have nicknamed the Atlas
"Death's Head".
     The Atlas was the first 'Mech to mount such a large and devastating
binary liquid propellant cannon, dwarfing its diminutive experimental and
special purpose predecessors. Even though it carries only twenty rounds for
its massive Class 20 binary propellant cannon, the mere threat of such a
fearsome weapon is often enough to send less discliplined vehicle crews
scurrying. The weapon's only problem is that it lacks a cooling jacket and can
overheat easily with prolonged fire.
     The Atlas' long-range missile delivery system is a unique design. Upon
discovering that the burst-firing missile launcher suffered from excessive
reliability problems when stuffed into the 'Mech's torso, the designers
decided to install four seperate launchers with a shared feed system that can
shoot a combined total of four salvos within ten seconds. The feed system is
fairly reliable, and Techs need only worry about shielding the ammo from heat
emitted from the nearby reactor. Reloading is quick, as each missile's storage
canister automatically interfaces with the launcher it loads into. Completely
loaded, the missile system can shoot ten salvos of four, and one salvo of two
anti-armour missiles. The large aperture between the four missile systems may
look like another weapon, but it is the omnicoupling, where power and coolant
cables can be attached to start up or repair the Atlas.
     The 'Mech's armor is generous, though not as thick as that found on more
compact MBTs,, and the forward torso and legs are especially well protected.
Simulated engagements suggest that if a combined-arms militia company engaged
an Atlas, the Atlas would retire for repairs an hour later, leaving only
wreckage and broken bodies on the field.
     The head is roomy enough to support a small disk antenna, giving the
Atlas limited surface-to-space communications. When entering battle, the pilot
can fold up the antenna and stow it in a protected portion of the Atlas'
head.
     The three pairs of 20mm autocannon mounted on each of the Atlas' wrists
and a rear torso barbette and anti-infantry fragmentation charges make the
'Mech a powerful close-range fighter and a terror to infantry even in confined
spaces, while its internal structure gives the arms and hands enormous power.
This has created many horror stories concerning Atlases and their ability to
pick-up and crush small vehicles and their occupants and fling them to the
ground as though they were mere toys.
     The main drawbacks of the Atlas are its tall profile and limited
ammunition reserves. Intelligent opponents will retreat before the forbidding
machine, hoping either to draw it into an ambush, or sucker it into marshy or
muddy areas where a battlemech's higher ground pressure works against it. Once
there, the Atlas' lack of mobility is compounded, allowing opponents the time
to wear down the mech from a distance. If a company depends on an Atlas for
fire support, then a wily enemy will hit and run, hoping to draw  swifter
enemies away from the slow Atlas.

==Battle History:==
     The Atlas was first used against Stefan the Secessionist. In the final
battles to gain control of Kessel's major spaceports, the Atlas was
instrumental in securing beachheads to allow troops to land safely.
     General Kerensky's second-in-command, General DeChavilier, spearheaded
the final assault on the Secessionist's last stronghold, the Imperial City. He
continually exposed his Atlas to enemy fire, yet marched on as if the laser
bolts, missiles, and cannon shells were nothing more than the annoying buzz of
flies. When DeChavilier's Atlas pushed over the concrete outer wall
surrounding the Imperial Palace, Kerensky headed for the Secessionist's palace
gates in his Orion command vehicle.
     Considering the Atlas' raw power, it is no wonder that Kerensky wanted
all Atlases to accompany him into employment as a corporate mercenary. Oddly,
more than two-thirds of the pilots who refused to join him were Atlas pilots.
Perhaps they felt that they could better their social standing by remaining in
the permenant employ of various Terran nations. The remaining Atlases and
those still being produced.

==Variants:==
     With the passing years, Atlas parts become less and less interchangable,
as more manufacturers produce their own licensed and unlicensed variations.
The Atlas can use slightly different weapon designs, but they invariably
decrease the strain the capacity of the 'Mech's interior.
     As for modifications, few officers in national militaries have dared to
tamper with success. Some have replaced the autocannon on the 'Mech's hands
with small tank cannon. This variant is only moderately successful, however,
as the new cannon lack the fearsome rate of fire that made the Atlas so
fearsome in close quarters.

==Notable 'Mechs & MechWarriors:==
MechWarrior Rodney Van Kleven
     A member of the elite Royal Horse Guards, Rodney Van Kleven is an
aristocrat with the instincts of a democrat. Extremely personable, he is
well-liked by everyone from fellow MechWarriors to the lowliest ship's cook.
     On the battlefield, Van Kleven uses his Atlas, which he calls the Boar's
Head, like a 100 ton scout. He stomps all over the field, creating general
terror in the enemy lines and almost always overheating his 'Mech. He has won
several land grants, but quickly loses the titles when his 'Mech overheats and
shuts down on the battlefield.

General of the Army Vasily Cherenkoff
     Commander of Lord Kurita's forces, Cherenkoff's Atlas is seldom in the
vicinity of a raging battle. Preferring to park his red Atlas next to a mobile
HQ, he uses it only in an emergency or when inspecting troops. The general is
as abrasive as he is fat. The current joke among his troops is that the Atlas
is the only conveyance that can carry his weight, and that even its leg
actuators groan under the strain.

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Atlas AS7-D
Mass:          100 tons
Construction Options:  Fractional Accounting

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  152 pts Standard              0     10.00
Engine:        300 Fusion                    6     19.00
   Walking MP:   3
   Running MP:   5
   Jumping MP:   0
Heat Sinks:     15 Double [30]               9      5.00
 (Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 2 RA)
Heavy Duty Gyro:                             4      6.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors:                5      3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H    R: Sh+UA+LA+H   16       .00
Armor Factor:  304 pts Standard              0     19.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Head:                      3          9     
   Center Torso:             31         47     
   Center Torso (Rear):                 14     
   L/R Side Torso:           21      32/32     
   L/R Side Torso (Rear):            10/10     
   L/R Arm:                  17      34/34     
   L/R Leg:                  21      41/41     

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
2 Rapid Fire Cannon/2s*  RA      4  250      7      9.00
  (Ammo Locations: 2 LA, 3 RT)
2 Rapid Fire Cannon/2s*  LA      4           2      4.00
1 HV Cannon/20*          RT      8   20      9     13.00
  (Ammo Locations: 1 RT)
1 Guided Missile/AA*     LT      8   30      3      2.00
  (Ammo Locations: 1 LT)
4 Guided Missile/Med.s*  LT     16   42     10      4.00
  (Ammo Locations: 1 LA, 1 LT)
2 Rapid Fire Cannon/2s*  CT(R)   4           2      4.00
2 Anti-Personnel Pods    LL      0           2      1.00
2 Anti-Personnel Pods    RL      0           2      1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                         44          77    100.00
Crits & Tons Left:                           1       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        16,340,000 C-Bills
Battle Value:      3,299
Cost per BV:       4,953.02
Weapon Value:      6,946 / 6,946 (Ratio = 2.11 / 2.11)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 57;  MRDmg = 71;  LRDmg = 57
BattleForce2:      MP: 3,  Armor/Structure: 8/8
                   Damage PB/M/L: 8/8/7,  Overheat: 2
                   Class: MA;  Point Value: 33

[Daryk]

so what about a Skyraider A1 knockoff for ground attack role?
and a Vought F4U Corsair for scary strike fighter?
could they be updated to "modern gear"?
*snip*

Have you considered the Super Tucano? :)

[ANS Kamas P81]

Man you guys write Technical Readout fluff like I wish I could.

F16, I'll get to work renaming the vehicles to being built in the 2515-2525 timeframe, "Type ## (Role)" format.  I do indeed have a family of wheeled vehicles which I think I can rework into 15 ton Type 96 analogues; I've also got a Type 16 MCV clone at 25 tons as well.  Sapporo prefers heavy machine guns over miniguns, I gather; switching those up won't be so hard.  I suppose I should break down and insert pintle-mounted HMGs for the Gensoukyou crowd too, mixing them with a cupola-mounted minigun as standard equipment.

How likely is Sapporo to sell or share a TL5 set of vehicles with the rest of the SDR anyway, or the blueprints thereof?  Not the AW-15 or 18; those are probably jealously guarded but the TL5 MDC/15 main gun could be something for other worlds to build tanks around.  I want Gensoukyo to build its own tank alongside the AW-02 because I love the look of the Merkava Mk 1 so much along with the idea of a tank carrying infantry along with it.  The JSDF operates a 26 ton Type 89 IFV and the 15 ton Type 96 APC; I'll write those up as TL5 vehicles for Sapporo with some extra bells and whistles the original vehicles don't have.

Looking at Japan, they've only got 0.2% of the population in active duty roles and 0.06% in the reserves.  I suppose I'm going to need to trim back my military size again, or increase the population.

Have a couple inspired-bys.  TL5 Type 89 IFV and a TL5 Type 96 APC.  I went with intro dates of 2518 and 2515 respectively, since the APC would be simpler to design and produce compared to the IFV.  Unlike the AW-02/Type 74, these are more inspired-by and laden down with electronics and protection systems that the real-world vehicles don't have.  The Type 15 can swap out its APW/H for an APW/GM without any other change to the stat sheet, the ammo weights remain the same.  The Type 18 simply mounts one of each to give the crew options.

[ANS Kamas P81]

A Command Post vehicle based on the APC, and an MDC carrier based on the Type 16 MCV. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

I took the Type 18 IFV, replaced its turret with a much larger one housing a 155mm gun, ammo carousel, and autoloader system, and called it an artillery piece.  It weighs a chunk more than the Type 18 IFV, but has the same 2 ton engine so it's barely making an MA of 5 - call it underpowered for its weight, but it can still eventually get up to 50km/h.  36 rounds onboard means you've got some time before you have to reload the thing, but it's still best to keep trucks around for extra ammo - and extra hands to help reload the gun.

Also swapped out the Command Post Module on the Type 16 for a Fire Direction Control Center and made a Type 22 FDCC Vehicle.  Pretty straightforward piece of hardware, it's there to make artillery fire more accurate with that -3 THM.

I'll point out that all these TL5 vehicles are running network nodes and hubs for information sharing, I don't know how the rules for those work but I'm fluffing the TL5 army as being heavily datalinked and putting it in game terms with this design paradigm.  F16, got rules on how to use the Network Node and Hub systems?

[ANS Kamas P81]

Last for now is a vehicle inspired by the Komatsu LAV, which is a little heavier than the actual thing.  I wanted to give it a TL3 fire control for the machine gun, call it what you will but I didn't like the idea of TL2 only for the weapons systems, even if that is just open iron sights.  The weight came in between an LAV and M1114 armored HMMWV, so I'm happy with that, and it manages to carry a rifle team with it.  I equipped the standard version with the Gensoukyou favorite, the minigun, but it can swap to an APW/H for no change in ammo or weight.  I added a laser designator to it so it could act as a light scout vehicle and paint targets for artillery or air support.

Okay, I lied, last for NOW is a Gensoukyouan alternative to the AW-15 - it's not as heavily armored, but it's a dozen tons lighter and that makes a lot more bridges and roads acceptable to the tank.  It's also faster than the AW-15, keeping up with the Type 18 IFV easily enough.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I took the Type 15 wheeled APC and made an ATGM vehicle out of it.  I was going to use the Type 18 IFV but I had too much tonnage left over after stripping off the weapons, so I went with the lighter vehicle. 

[chanman]

Man you guys write Technical Readout fluff like I wish I could.

Well, the Atlas one is just a revised version of the original fluff to fit the Fringe 

[ANS Kamas P81]

And it's still pretty damn accurate; while a tank can penetrate that armor most AFVs are not going to, and the amount of return firepower it has is excessive - which a BattleMech should be.

Three more vehicles for Gensoukyou and Sapporo, first off is a recovery vehicle that's got a bulldozer blade on it so it can make prepared positions.  There's also an engineer vehicle with a demolition gun, mine clearance charges, and a mine plow.  Both of these vehicles are built on the hull and powertrain of the Type 20 MBT, with the Engineer Vehicle mounting a large cast-steel turret for the 165mm demolition gun.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Also a mortar-carrier version of the Type 15 Wheeled APC, with an AMOS twin 120mm autoloading mortar turret mounted to it. 

I also redid the Nitori-class to TL5, I kept the missiles but got rid of the rear gun turret.  The forward turret replaced twin 40mm Bofors guns with a 37mm rotary autocannon off the T249 Vigilante, but unlike the Vig this one actually has a deep magazine for sustained fire.  I also added some twin-mount .50 HMGs amidships, to the stern of the minigun mounts.  Otherwise it keeps the same missiles, namely a six-shot Patriot battery in a VLS cell behind the bridge and forward of the main mast.  I also added network systems to the ship, and turned it into a command ship.  She lost a lot of weight in the process, slimming down to a svelte 160 tons even.

[ANS Kamas P81]

And if I'm going to upgrade the Nitori, I'm going to upgrade the Takanes.  The fast assault boat upgraded its APW/Ms to APW/Hs for some real firepower, while keeping the two miniguns, though it had to give up a little ammo for each gun to do so.  Now it's accurate to the photos I posted a while back, though still heavier than the real CB90.  Then again regular CB90s don't carry a forest of machine guns...

The Command Version also got the TL5 upgrade, which basically meant more ammo for the AMOS mortar system along with a network hub and command post module to emphasize its role. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

And one last TL5, the basic RHIB semi-inflatable boat.  I took the weight savings from TL5 structure and engine and poured it into speed, it's capable of 43 knots and can run down most if not every pleasure craft on Gensoukyou.  Granted, it's limited to the small arms of its carried boarding party, but that's still enough to convince folks to heave to.

That about does it for the TL5 vehicles.  Gensoukyou's own Defense Force is a mix of slowly produced TL5 and older TL3 hardware; there's five total brigades making up a single division of troops in the GGDF.  This does assume Sapporo shares their TL5 military equipment, but as you said they're not quite the elitist jerks they used to be, and are a lot more coalition minded especially after 2511.  They're not sharing TL6 hardware, keeping that to maintain superiority, but I figure the TL5 stuff would be freely shared with the worlds of the SDR to boost their militaries.

1st Division "Oukami" (Wolf)
2nd Armored Brigade "Minamoto no Yoshitsune"
1st Mechanized Infantry Brigade "Toyotomi Hideoshi"
3rd Mechanized Infantry Brigade "Kusunoki Masashige"
5th Rapid Reaction Brigade "Sanada Yukimura"
4th Artillery Brigade "Tokugawa Ieyasu"

It's a bit weighted towards the TL5 stuff for the infantry, while there armor has more AW-02 tanks than advanced Type 20s.  Lots and lots of tracked vehicles, though there's enough wheeled vehicles to make up a speedy Rapid Reaction Brigade that consists of three battalions, each BN with one gun vehicle company, two mechanized infantry companies in Type 15s, and one light mechanized infantry company in a lot of Type 19 LAVs.

Unrelated to Gensoukyou but probably relevant to Mriya, a thought about Battalion Tactical Groups.  Instead of a battalion of infantry supported by a dozen tanks and an artillery battery, what if you went with a tank battalion supported by a company of infantry and an artillery battery?  It'd dramatically improve the amount of heavy firepower with a battalion of 40+ tanks being the core of the BTG, and a platoon of infantry supporting each company of tanks.  That'd be in addition to whatever infantry is assigned to the tanks; I'm thinking of the Israeli style of tank battalion where there's a dedicated armor support company with light vehicles and infantry.  The tank-heavy BTG would have that company as part of its tank battalion, and an extra company of mechanized infantry in IFVs supporting it.  Workable, or just too small a unit to be effective?

[Failure16]

Well, Sapporo certainly grew up and filled out fast! I have a soft-spot for lots of wheels and big guns, so the Type 16 is right up my alley. And it is air-transportable, too. The US Army really should have looked seriously outside the box before building the Stryker MGS. (I wish Duane Loose had been on board with that, so the Striker and Hetzer (thirty-five and forty tonnes!) would have a proper amount of axles.)

I do think that they would probably share technology. I still believe that the SDR is filled with mostly "colony worlds" with Sapporo and Gensoukyou being the only ones that really build their own military gear. So, most of the worlds in the SDR probably use Sapporan-proper gear as a default, with Gensoukyan gear as the mood (or proximity) strikes.

In other words, if you find yourself doing with something with any other SDR planet, assume that above: baseline low-level Sapporan gear (like the 1970-90s US National Guards) with a given world or unit using Gensoukyan gear as the narrative of plot demands. Of course, TL5 will proliferate, but colony worlds will still probably have their '74alogues because that is all they can reliably maintain without offworld mechanics/technicians and support gear. Sapporo is growing crazy-fast, so they cannot bring every world's planetary guard along with them at the same rate.

The Sapporans can use miniguns if you want. Their frontline forces are transitioning to electromotive weaponry as we have seen, but there is nothing to say they didn't use the Gats before then. Hochstadt uses 12.7mm tribarrels on primary combat units, at least until their tech-tree starts sprouting new branches (and maybe even still; they are good weapons!), so they wouldn't be the first. It's all up to how many times you want to update Record Sheets, Kamas!

I do have rules for Networks, but I'll have to dig for them. I only ever used them for SAM-site set-ups, so not something I have memorized. Something like a less-gamey BTU C3 network. A lot of it boiled down to the Nodes gaining targeting data (read FCS bonuses) from the Hub without everyone having to pay for things like Search Radars and whatnot. To some extent, it will also figure into how the Slammerverse tanks worked regarding anti-artillery/satellite fires or defense. And Hochstadt will be transitioning to it as well to get that same "all-around air-defense" feel.

As far as top-of-the-line forces, it appears that Hochstadt and Sapporo are the kings of that hill. The Novos are definitely mid-tech only, while the other factions waffle between TL4 and -5 as seems fitting at the time.

I did look through the landships chanman alluded to. Good fluff, and still in the original early-still-BT-tech phase. An interesting world too. I'll try to post it as-is since it would require a lot of work to mush into the present setting. I wish I knew who originally did it for proper attribution. Chanman?

[ANS Kamas P81]

Yeah, the Stryker MGS was just a great big Don't Do That for procurement and design.  There were plenty of things like the Centauro that could have done the job just fine, and had proven track records of service.

I think the only things that Gensoukyou builds are the Type 20 MBT, the Type 19 LAV, and the navy vessels, plus their own small arms and light equipment.  The rest are imports from Sapporo, leaving them the kings of TL5 vehiclemaking in the SDR.  The Type 20 MBT isn't on the export list, since they've still got to turn out two more tank battalions over the next few years before there's extras to sell off.

Even Gensoukyou still operates a good chunk of TL3 equipment, though its modernization program is progressing.  Two tank battalions out of four have been upgraded to Type 20s, with (eventually) more on the way, and two out of five mechanized infantry battalions have new hardware operating alongside some of the older gear.  And there's the three rapid response battalions, which are a parade force for the most part but that Type 96 APC is a looker.  I'll have to recount the vehicles, with one of the two mechanized brigades being older technology.

I also came up with a TL5 replacement for the Type 97 Antiaircraft Vehicle, this one with a larger threat bubble provided by Medium ADGMs.  It's purely an antiaircraft vehicle; its FCS for ground attack is nonexistent.  It's basically a turret swap of the Type 18 IFV, with eight SAMs and a 20mm autocannon for airburst munitions, and comes with its own search radar to find targets for its missiles.  In Gensoukyouan service it makes up an six-vehicle antiaircraft battery in each artillery battalion.

[chanman]

I did look through the landships chanman alluded to. Good fluff, and still in the original early-still-BT-tech phase. An interesting world too. I'll try to post it as-is since it would require a lot of work to mush into the present setting. I wish I knew who originally did it for proper attribution. Chanman?

As far as I know, I'm the writer for the fluff for those designs because they came out of my old working files. The landships definitely were my doing

[ANS Kamas P81]

What were the landships?  I don't have HMP, so I can't look at the old designs.

I took another swing at that special-operations tiltrotor, basing it on the smaller V-280 Valor.  I enlarged it by about two tons, which let me give it some machine gun armament as well as a seating capacity for 16 infantry.  That's one special operations platoon, or half a regular infantry platoon.  I figure it's something that Sapporo would build for an air assault unit, and something Gensoukyou would use for its Special Group Youkai troops.  I figure there's a single squadron of eight in the aviation company of the SGY battalion.

[chanman]

What were the landships?  I don't have HMP, so I can't look at the old designs.

I took another swing at that special-operations tiltrotor, basing it on the smaller V-280 Valor.  I enlarged it by about two tons, which let me give it some machine gun armament as well as a seating capacity for 16 infantry.  That's one special operations platoon, or half a regular infantry platoon.  I figure it's something that Sapporo would build for an air assault unit, and something Gensoukyou would use for its Special Group Youkai troops.  I figure there's a single squadron of eight in the aviation company of the SGY battalion.

HMV for the landships. And they're exactly what they sound like. 200-ton descendants of the T-35 and Vickers Independent.

[ANS Kamas P81]

The first thing that comes to mind is a tank designed by Hayao Miyazaki.  Granted it's probably a bit big even for one of your landships but it's in that direction.



And I figured the Type 70 gunship package would eventually get a dedicated replacement, something bigger than the Alouette.  There's not a lot of TL3 gunships to pick from, so I went with the classic AH-1 Cobra.  No ATGMs, just a twin minigun turret mount and two 19-shot and two 7-shot rocket pods.  I had the tonnage left over, so I put some bulletproofing on the nose, protecting the pilot and gunner from small arms or machine gun fire from the front.  The Cobra's a pretty simple helicopter, so the Type 05 follows in those same footsteps.  This is something built on Gensoukyou, as part of its TL3 production, and still serves even in the 2530 Air Defense Force.



EDIT

Just a quick list of what Sapporo makes in addition to the AW-15 and AW-18 monster tanks.

Wheeled Gun Vehicle (based on Type 16 MCV)
  TL5 Type 20 Wheeled Gun Vehicle (26.08 tons) (2520)
Tracked IFV (based on Type 89 IFV)
  TL5 Type 18 IFV (26.66 tons) (2518)
  TL5 Type 22 Artillery Vehicle (28.54 tons) (2522)
  TL5 Type 23 Antiaircraft Vehicle (26.58 tons) (2523)
Wheeled APC (based on Type 96 APC)
  TL5 Type 15 Wheeled APC (14.6 tons) (2515)
  TL5 Type 16 Command Post Vehicle (14.58 tons) (2516)
  TL5 Type 17 Mortar Vehicle (14.68 tons) (2517)
  TL5 Type 21 ATGM Vehicle (14.48 tons) (2521)
  TL5 Type 22 Fire Direction Control Center Vehicle (14.58 tons) (2522)
VTOLs (based on Bell V-280)
  TL5 Type 26 Transport Tiltrotor (16.31 tons) (2526)

Those tonnages make me suspect that the standard Sapporoan SDF transport plane carries 30 tons of cargo; that's enough to schlep one Wheeled Gun Vehicle or a Tracked IFV, or two Wheeled APC hulls, without quite filling up the aircraft's cargo fraction.

F16, is there anything else you want me to make for the Sapporoans?  Rocket artillery, engineer vehicles, anything like that?

[Failure16]

That's a purdy helo you got there.

I think that the SDF will be a primarily tube-artillery kinda lot. I used to have one built on an AW-15 hull but have not seen fit to remake it.

Going back to your early question about force-ratios for a battalion maneuver group/task force, that is a very good question. Most mercenaries in the Fringe seem to be very close to what you describe: about two companies of armor to one of infantry. Others are pure infantry, but rarely are they pure armor.

Tactically, I feel that is probably correct, unless you are assaulting a city, providing a security/stabilization force, etc., then you definitely want 2/1 infantry/armor

Star mercenaries probably like armor. Assuming it can be afforded, it is a force multiplier, it protects your investment and lessens the need for medical care or death benefits. It is heavy, expensive, and difficult to crew, but sometimes you need a tank to take on a tank, if the other side has them.

As an example, the Doomsayers mercenary brigade use a four company/battalion structure. It used to be 3 mech-inf companies and 1 light tank. Now it is 2/2, and with better tanks. In-universe, a lot of that happened after Montelimar when they got spanked by the FSR. Really, the changeover reflects real-worlds practices which is trending more towards balanced force structures (because no one ever turns away an extra infantry squad or platoon, no matter how much the infantry is derided).

[ANS Kamas P81]

I think another good reason star-mercs like tanks is because they're visually impressive and make a statement to potential hirers of power and capability, and just plain cool looks.  It's a business, so you gotta make an impression.

Tube arty based on the AW-15...assuming the engine is TL6 with a supercharger, this is what I got out of Tankreator.  A bigger, thinner-armored turret, but still better protected than a lot of Fringe tanks, and one bigass gun to hit targets Way Over There.  My take on the idea, anyway.

Mechanized infantry is popular across the stars, as well.  APCs aren't that complex to build on their most basic levels, though I suppose there's still TL2 and even TL1 worlds out there that haven't reached that capability yet.  I suppose the best mix of forces is like you said, a 2/2 blend of infantry and armor; that seems to be what the Americans are switching to for combined arms battalions IIRC. 

[DOC_Agren]

Have you considered the Super Tucano? :)

It seems to be an nice bird..

[ANS Kamas P81]

Tucanos are nice, but the Pucara's where it's at when it comes to COIN aircraft.

A couple more TL5s for Sapporo.  First off is a copy of the JGSDF Type 87 Reconnaissance Vehicle, the Type 27.  It's a bit light on ammo but it's not intended to do more than run away from opposing forces; its armor is (like the real world version) only rated against small arms and grenades.  Tradeoffs for only being 15 tons, so I can fit two of them in a hypothetical 30-ton transport aircraft.  Not that Gensoukyou has a lot of those, but Sapporo probably might.  It does come with a nice suite of sensors, so it makes up for spotting what it can't cover in fighting. 



Second up was an artillery counterbattery radar for artillery regiment Target Acquisition batteries, built on the hull of the Type 15 APC.  Nothing really to say about it other than it sees what you did there.

[Daryk]

The Pucara's looking a little long in the tooth compared to the Super Tucano... ;)

[Failure16]

The -87 is adorable, no doubt of that.

I guess I really need to get cracking on Aircreator, eh? Getting the basic numbers to make an airframe isn't all that hard--time consuming, but not hard if you choose a good range of exemplars--but it's the things like maneuverability that is vexing.

[chanman]

The -87 is adorable, no doubt of that.

I guess I really need to get cracking on Aircreator, eh? Getting the basic numbers to make an airframe isn't all that hard--time consuming, but not hard if you choose a good range of exemplars--but it's the things like maneuverability that is vexing.

The problem with aircraft is that they're complex systems. I'm not sure if they generally model as well as ground vehicles. They're also incredibly resource-intensive to design and make. Could be that most nations of the Fringe actually have enough trouble advancing past the turboprop/attack helicopter stage that serious air assets can generally only be imported from outside. If you think of the Fringe as being akin to South America in the greater scheme of things, at least.

[ANS Kamas P81]

The Type 87 is a cutie, yeah.

The Fringe as South America is a pretty good comparison, all things told.  Hochstadt is definitely Brazil, with its strong and advanced defense and aerospace industry.  There's heavyweight worlds, just like heavyweight countries, and there's no small number of worlds having spats with each other or dealing with insurrections and other internal strife.  If mercenaries were legalized in SA like they are in the Fringe, it'd be a hell of a business down there.

EDIT

I think the biggest problem with modeling aircraft in the Fringe is speed - VTOLs are bad enough with speeds up and over 500km/h (50 MA) with tiltrotor style aircraft, but their maneuvers tend to be at low altitude and either sniping missiles from behind cover or making high-speed passes to engage with guns and rockets.  Either way, they're using terrain to their advantages, and paying a lot of MA to be able to do those maneuvers.  Propeller planes have roughly the same speed limits (the lovely Pucara peaks her speed at 500km/h, just to name one) but lack the maneuverability of helicopters, so to avoid deconstructive lithobraking tend to higher altitudes than VTOLs.  Jets, meanwhile, hit the sound barrier at an MA of 123 and that's only an impediment because of fuel constraints.  Then there's the excessively long ranges of air to air weapons; dozens (or hundreds) of kilometers for weapon and fire control ranges.  It all comes down to a simple thing - I think air power, what there is, should be abstracted rather than directly modeled.

Granted, that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't build aircraft in Tankreator.  It's a robust program, and has the weapons already modeled in it, so getting rid of that work would be a painful loss.  And developing stats for fighters and bombers should be doable, so we can build our air forces and equip them with the weapons we like - both for ground and air roles.  But I think the stats should be summarized down to an air to air attack value and an air to ground attack value, as well as a maneuver and stealth value that can be applied against air to air weapons as well as Air Defense weapons on Tankreator's AFVs - a stat which already exists, so we have that as a basis to start from.  A given aircraft equipped with X weapons can make so many air or ground attacks at whatever bonuses to hit and damage rating those weapons have, followed by a period of maneuver where the attacking aircraft flies away to come back from another direction.

BattleTech has the abstracted radar map for tracking movement of ASFs over the battlefield, and I think a closer look at that idea is deserved.  Fast movers over the battlefield area (the part of the actual playing map) should have a straight movement line across the field, allowing it to be engaged by AA weapons in range of that movement line, while attacking targets on the map.  Guided weapons could engage targets in a wider frontal arc for your aircraft, while guns and dumb bombs can only hit targets on that line.  Outside the game map area, the aircraft would be tracked by zones, a near zone and a far zone where abstracted air combat can take place.  AtoA Weapons would have short, medium, and long range values, where you can engage targets in the same zone you're in, one zone away, or even two zones away respectively.

It's just a few bones of an idea, but it's something to expand on, especially if you guys have experience in wargaming aircraft in BattleTech or other game systems.  I'm afraid I'm pretty limited to BT, and haven't ever played a game of Aerotech in my life, so I'm going way out on a limb with the concept.  Thoughts?  Suggestions welcome, of course!

[Failure16]

The Type 87 is a cutie, yeah.

The Fringe as South America is a pretty good comparison, all things told.  Hochstadt is definitely Brazil, with its strong and advanced defense and aerospace industry.  There's heavyweight worlds, just like heavyweight countries, and there's no small number of worlds having spats with each other or dealing with insurrections and other internal strife.  If mercenaries were legalized in SA like they are in the Fringe, it'd be a hell of a business down there.

Nah...São José dos Campos is Brasil!  Kidding. For sure, the Fringeverse is South America and Africa all rolled into one, Pangea-style. I never looked past ISW2 because losing Hochstadt will murder my spirit, but that's the Fringe for you. Sigh

Airpower in Tankreator will always be considered a form of Fire Support; there is already a tab for it and that is where Aircreator would fit in. Apologies in advance, but there it is. Airplanes exist in the Fringe, and some use them in combat, sure. But chanman is correct: if people are building F-22s, they are wasting their time. There are no aerospace fighters in the Fringeverse, and their never will be. "Flying tanks" are limited to the IL-2/A-10/Mi-24 paradigm: they may be tough compared to their stablemates, but they get shot down in flames just as easily as anything else if you put the hammer on them squarely. At the end of the day, those worthies are not packing protecting any better than a decent armored car, and that is the reality of it.

Now, I do want to be able to stat out aircraft and have the program directly port those stats into a FS line, just like infantry. I do think that it will be more difficult, because there are unseen and unknown factors that are--as noted--simply not present in AFVs. But it is a mathematical/analytical problem that just seems to be solvable, somehow...

I also need to make a Fire Support stat-line, again like Infantry. That has more importance than aircraft, I feel.

[DOC_Agren]

As I was the one who brought up "aircraft", it was more just looking at some ideas/brainstorm for Ullaley Defense Forces.

And I was really looking at WWII era machines.. A1 Skyraider as the "top of line" CION aircraft and maybe a F4U Corsair "Fighter/Ground Attack" bird.

I think we are looking at PT-76, as the base our "Armor" forces, as there are already number of designs based off it.

thinking of a UH-1 based VTOL family, including the Cobra

Will the UDF, be able to stand up to high tech forces.. it will be hard, but we are on the defense not offense so hopefully we can hold are own.

I think our primary rifle will be a 8mm M14 style Rifle, with a 8mm M1918 BAR with 20 mag or 50 drum as our SAW.  10mm Automatic handgun

[ANS Kamas P81]

Going with the big bullets I see, eh Doc?  8mm Mauser, I'm assuming, which is a fine and heavy hitting cartridge and suitable for the weapons you mention.

A variety of UH-1s and their gunship variants have been posted, most by F16 though I did make an early Cobra variant a page or so ago with twin miniguns, two 19 shot rocket pods, and two 7-shot rocket pods.

As for the PT-76, I went with the B model at TL2 to eat up the tonnage; it doesn't have a lot to bring to the table though it's technically overweight by 0.11 tons.  It's also arguably overarmored, but the turret front face protection should be able to stop .50 fire with its 20 mm at 35° protection.  The hull, not so much; a high of 13mm and a low of 5mm steel thickness.  The engine...it's got a road speed of 44km/h but going with a 2 MA vehicle left it dramatically underweight.  I suppose over rougher terrain the 30km/h 3 MA is an acceptable compromise.  Last was a basic NBC system, which the PT-76B was fitted with.  The VEESS is just something that a lot of Soviet tanks had, I don't see anything saying yes or no for whether it was fitted to the tank.  I'm just assuming that's the case.  At least it's got decent firepower with the SC/8.

I agree that fire support should get its own statline, just for an interaction with how shells damage vehicles and infantry.  As it is, the playable forces in Dust & Fire 4.0 list medium and heavy fire missions as playable elements rather than actual artillery vehicles, though those can still be employed on the map if you're attacking an arty park (and things have gone horribly wrong for the artillery) as part of a scenario.

It's probably the case that air support can have its own basic statline of a ground attack every #th turn, and the AD stat for weapons can represent a simple to-hit die roll.  You don't have to kill an enemy aircraft outright, even a near miss that damages the plane is going to send it running back to base and drive it off the battlefield.  A successful air-defense attack by a suitable weapon (pretty much anything) that beats the armor rating of the aircraft (near-universally zero) will remove it from play either by shooting it down or damaging it to the point of fleeing and probably crashing on the way home.  It's just a question of range as to whether that AD weapon can engage aircraft or not.

I like to imagine Sapporo has an F-2 analogue they use for air defense and ground attack, because F-16 derived aircraft are slick lookers.  And the mascot girl for it is cute; I can totally picture SASDF recruiters dressing up like that to get guys to join up - corporations know the power of targeted advertising.  Air power has a quality all its own, especially with the capacity for deep strikes behind enemy lines, assuming your SEAD missions are successful.



EDIT

Downgraded the PT-76B's engine slightly to 2.91MA, which still rounds off to 3MA but gets it spot on the 14.6 ton weight.  I forgot I could use fractional accounting there, and it does match the idea that the top speed is between 40 and 50km/h.

[chanman]

An F-2/79 would be appropriate as a downgraded export-model. Also sluggish - the J79 is much less powerful than any of the other F-16 engine fits, and the F-2 is reputedly already less spritely than other F-16s owing to extra weight and induced drag from the bigger wing.