Author Topic: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter  (Read 6464 times)

General308

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #90 on: 07 October 2024, 15:55:58 »
I think we've got a serious definition on what constitutes a 'Back Line' sniper-the gauss is...okay...for range.  but it's not going to keep you out of trouble when you expose to fire it if you actually want to, y'know, hit anything with it.

Otherwise most of your shots with it are going to be administering 15 point strikes to nothing at all, unless you want to get close enough that the majority of what can reach you, can and will hurt and/or kill you.  (LRM fire, for example, double taps with ultras, LBX cluster...)

The Hawk Moth can back-line snipe, and still has enough movement to be very low risk of being hit at all at the effective range of its main gun. (upper edge of medium, at cruise, in case you're keeping track). 8 point smacks aren't Ah-MayyyZingg but damage potential means nothing if you can't actually deliver the goods to the target reliably, and a "Back line" sniper's first job, is to deliver the goods to the target reliably from a position that makes return fire problematic.

as I've said, the Yellowjacket is a design that requires cooperation from your opponent and dedicated build to the rest of your force to be of any use, and if you've got a force that can make it useful, they're probably more effective leaving that space empty on their roster instead of taking it.

The main gun, in the context of the time it's supposed to exist, is a medium range piece, not a long range sniper, especially in the conflict it's supposed to exist in (Clan invasion and later).

anyway, we must've beaten the subject of vtols-as-scouts to death since we're talking about overweight gunships that were poorly conceived, had to have the rules updated to make them slightly less useless, and occupy too much space in the techmanual.

Players minds when they see a Yellow Jacket "Is kill the flying Gauss Rifle and they have one less Gauss rifle"  Tends to be a priorty target

Were as players are much more likely with a Moth Hawk to go "Oh Light Gauss" and focus on other things

Cannonshop

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #91 on: 07 October 2024, 17:19:16 »
Two weeks ago, one of our newer regular players showed up with a lance of YJ's. It was the first time he'd ever played VTOLs... He was a disappointed. :cool:

a LOT of the "VTOLs/Vehicles Suck!!" attitude comes from similar experiences by new players who pick the YJ as their gateway to the type, and then get that disappointing experience.  One of the ways I used to get my players to revise that negative first impression, is to use the "VTOL Aeroduel" scenario, and put them up against other VTOLs that Don't Suck.

Then switch sides and let them run the other VTOLs that don't suck.  They learn that it's not VTOLs that suck, it's that some VTOL Designs, which are points/rules legal, and even published, suck.

this does violate my tendency to disdain duelling, but it can be a fun distraction for when people are starting to get bored or burnt out in the current campaign.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #92 on: 08 October 2024, 10:25:04 »
a LOT of the "VTOLs/Vehicles Suck!!" attitude comes from similar experiences by new players who pick the YJ as their gateway to the type, and then get that disappointing experience.  One of the ways I used to get my players to revise that negative first impression, is to use the "VTOL Aeroduel" scenario, and put them up against other VTOLs that Don't Suck.

Then switch sides and let them run the other VTOLs that don't suck.  They learn that it's not VTOLs that suck, it's that some VTOL Designs, which are points/rules legal, and even published, suck.

this does violate my tendency to disdain duelling, but it can be a fun distraction for when people are starting to get bored or burnt out in the current campaign.

He realized it was the poor movement profile hampering him. He thought he'd get more mobility out of the unit, given that he didn't have to deal with terrain if so chose. Unfortunately, he also didn't read up on the VTOL rules thoroughly enough and was frustrated when rotor shots dropped three of his four units. And, he also did a lot of side slipping as he skipped over those rules as well.

We're getting more and more players fielding vehicles without going through the rules. We've had a couple of heated discussions with respect to vehicle crits and motive damage.

Cannonshop

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #93 on: 08 October 2024, 11:41:46 »
He realized it was the poor movement profile hampering him. He thought he'd get more mobility out of the unit, given that he didn't have to deal with terrain if so chose. Unfortunately, he also didn't read up on the VTOL rules thoroughly enough and was frustrated when rotor shots dropped three of his four units. And, he also did a lot of side slipping as he skipped over those rules as well.

We're getting more and more players fielding vehicles without going through the rules. We've had a couple of heated discussions with respect to vehicle crits and motive damage.

Well, speaking heresy then, one way you can 'clean up' those discussions, is to run some all-vehicles scenarios with a designated referee holding the book open for those disputes.

Back in BMR days, I used to photocopy sections of the BMR when working a new player in past the introductory all 'mech style of play into combined arms, it was helpful also in that time period, because you could get the entire hit chart for a vehicle on the same sheet with the vehicle record right off the printer-which simplified a great deal of issues for newer or less experienced players, but isn't really practical in the current meta.

OTOH, printing the relevant pages on movement, firing arcs, hit locations and specific unit types into a quicker reference than "Dig through three chapters and sort across a dozen places on the page to find what you're looking for because it was laid out with PDF search function in mind".

But as I was saying, at least have one person who's the designated referee and has the relevant sections for the unit types you're running on hand and available to simplify the argument by showing the goods before people start screaming might be helpful.

at least, until you run into something that has been errata'd, but hasn't been included in the printing you have access to yet.

Quickly and cordially correcting misunderstandings is how you KEEP new players in the community, screaming fights (or snide sarcasm) is how you drive them away.

Some introductory concepts for helping new players master nuanced unit types like VTOLs:

1. Aeroduel.  VTOL vs. VTOL, This is to get players used to how movement is different with VTOL units in comparison with other ground units. INCLUDING firing arc limits, and the TMM/AMM (target movement modifier vs attacker movement modifier) as they apply to VTOLs.  I recommend not bringing in units with turrets until your players are used to how these handle without them.

2. Stealthy Approach: set up a mission with an NPC and two players, the victory conditions for the two players is to avoid having to make a 'detection roll' by flying too high.  Each time they're "Seen" (on a roll of six or higher on 2D6) they lose five points.  Enemy kills are worth ten each, and detection rolls happen when the VTOL is 2 or more levels higher than the 'ground level' of the hex they're over at the end of the movement phase. 

What this teaches: The use of terrain screening or low level approaches in cluttered terrain.  I used to use a 'city map' drawn on acetate over a blank hex-grid 3 maps by 4 maps (or larger).  This is another 'hunter/killer' mission type, or 'duel' (though it can be a team sport).

3. The Goat Path scenario: 1 company of light or lighter medium 'mechs, 1 company of VTOLs, maps should be mountainous, not rolling hills, with lots of switchbacks, ledges, long falls and narrow passes intermixed with long range open spaces.  The 'mech team needs to get across the map from home edge to far edge with as many units as possible, the VTOL team's job is to inflict damage and casualties (lost arm=5 points, lost leg=20 points, mobility kill=20 points.  Each 'mech that makes it to the escape edge is worth 25 points.  Team with the most points at the end wins.)

use 'stock' designs as a constraint on both sides, as you can get some outright deranged results with customs.

Each of these scenarios should be played twice using the same starting forces, but switching sides for the players, so that the principles they're supposed to be picking up are what's emphasized, rather than their badass ability to pick min/maxed units or flog BV.

Flogging BV is something that should be saved for after the player's become familiar with the rules governing a given unit type.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #94 on: 08 October 2024, 16:25:57 »
Well, speaking heresy then, one way you can 'clean up' those discussions, is to run some all-vehicles scenarios with a designated referee holding the book open for those disputes.

Back in BMR days, I used to photocopy sections of the BMR when working a new player in past the introductory all 'mech style of play into combined arms, it was helpful also in that time period, because you could get the entire hit chart for a vehicle on the same sheet with the vehicle record right off the printer-which simplified a great deal of issues for newer or less experienced players, but isn't really practical in the current meta.

OTOH, printing the relevant pages on movement, firing arcs, hit locations and specific unit types into a quicker reference than "Dig through three chapters and sort across a dozen places on the page to find what you're looking for because it was laid out with PDF search function in mind".

But as I was saying, at least have one person who's the designated referee and has the relevant sections for the unit types you're running on hand and available to simplify the argument by showing the goods before people start screaming might be helpful.

at least, until you run into something that has been errata'd, but hasn't been included in the printing you have access to yet.

Quickly and cordially correcting misunderstandings is how you KEEP new players in the community, screaming fights (or snide sarcasm) is how you drive them away.

Some introductory concepts for helping new players master nuanced unit types like VTOLs:

1. Aeroduel.  VTOL vs. VTOL, This is to get players used to how movement is different with VTOL units in comparison with other ground units. INCLUDING firing arc limits, and the TMM/AMM (target movement modifier vs attacker movement modifier) as they apply to VTOLs.  I recommend not bringing in units with turrets until your players are used to how these handle without them.

2. Stealthy Approach: set up a mission with an NPC and two players, the victory conditions for the two players is to avoid having to make a 'detection roll' by flying too high.  Each time they're "Seen" (on a roll of six or higher on 2D6) they lose five points.  Enemy kills are worth ten each, and detection rolls happen when the VTOL is 2 or more levels higher than the 'ground level' of the hex they're over at the end of the movement phase. 

What this teaches: The use of terrain screening or low level approaches in cluttered terrain.  I used to use a 'city map' drawn on acetate over a blank hex-grid 3 maps by 4 maps (or larger).  This is another 'hunter/killer' mission type, or 'duel' (though it can be a team sport).

3. The Goat Path scenario: 1 company of light or lighter medium 'mechs, 1 company of VTOLs, maps should be mountainous, not rolling hills, with lots of switchbacks, ledges, long falls and narrow passes intermixed with long range open spaces.  The 'mech team needs to get across the map from home edge to far edge with as many units as possible, the VTOL team's job is to inflict damage and casualties (lost arm=5 points, lost leg=20 points, mobility kill=20 points.  Each 'mech that makes it to the escape edge is worth 25 points.  Team with the most points at the end wins.)

use 'stock' designs as a constraint on both sides, as you can get some outright deranged results with customs.

Each of these scenarios should be played twice using the same starting forces, but switching sides for the players, so that the principles they're supposed to be picking up are what's emphasized, rather than their badass ability to pick min/maxed units or flog BV.

Flogging BV is something that should be saved for after the player's become familiar with the rules governing a given unit type.


Those sound like fun scenarios; we'll have to take a look at them.

We end up handling the 'heated discussions" the same way; "here's the RULE, in the RULE book.." We've also gone back to emphasizing knowing the rules of the units you're bringing before you show up. It'll be plastered all over the FB page for awhile. 

But, I get the frustration. The guys had no idea how fragile vehicles are. Between crits and motive hits, most of the vehicles were out of action within four turns.

Charistoph

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #95 on: 08 October 2024, 17:33:58 »
Some introductory concepts for helping new players master nuanced unit types like VTOLs:

Heh, I just did something similar with my group for Protomechs a couple weeks ago.  We did a Capture The Flag scenario with each player controlling a single Protomech (I provided the models).   I added some fun things akin to PseudoTech to make it fun and "Halo-style" (at the request of the players).

They got to learn how they work, except for the "Move as a Point" rule.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #96 on: 09 October 2024, 03:17:31 »

Those sound like fun scenarios; we'll have to take a look at them.

We end up handling the 'heated discussions" the same way; "here's the RULE, in the RULE book.." We've also gone back to emphasizing knowing the rules of the units you're bringing before you show up. It'll be plastered all over the FB page for awhile. 

But, I get the frustration. The guys had no idea how fragile vehicles are. Between crits and motive hits, most of the vehicles were out of action within four turns.

That 'fragility' is one of the reasons I got so I really ENJOYED running lots of conventional vees-the ability to run a battalion on battalion in the same timeframe 'mechs go lance-on-lance, (it gets decisive VERY quickly, even with units still viable on the map).

It ends up with a faster general playing style once everyone understands the relevant rules, and thus, lets you do larger battles and more complex scenarios and actually get finished before the gamestore kicks you out for the night (or the host's spouse kicks your group out because they want to sleep sometime before monday...)
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #97 on: 09 October 2024, 09:12:11 »
That 'fragility' is one of the reasons I got so I really ENJOYED running lots of conventional vees-the ability to run a battalion on battalion in the same timeframe 'mechs go lance-on-lance, (it gets decisive VERY quickly, even with units still viable on the map).

It ends up with a faster general playing style once everyone understands the relevant rules, and thus, lets you do larger battles and more complex scenarios and actually get finished before the gamestore kicks you out for the night (or the host's spouse kicks your group out because they want to sleep sometime before monday...)

Yeah.... Two of our guys thought it'd be fun to swarm with vehicles. They blew all of their BV on hovercraft, tanks, etc.. It was good in theory until a 3/4 Masakari A and 2/4 Marauder 11D pulled motive damage and crits at 20 hexes. Most of the vehicles were either immobilized, moving at a crawl or outright dead after a few turns. It was a graveyard.

Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #98 on: 09 October 2024, 10:08:02 »
Armor rushes work, just have to use the right designs in conjunction with terrain.  Bet they selected the super designs instead of cheaper plinking spam.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #99 on: 09 October 2024, 10:28:37 »
Armor rushes work, just have to use the right designs in conjunction with terrain.  Bet they selected the super designs instead of cheaper plinking spam.

They brought some burly, expensive vehicles. There wasn't much cover to work with but one player didn't use what he had. He'd exposed his entire force to hunkered-down heavy mechs two turns in. The Masakari's LBx-10 cluster and the Marauder's SB Gauss did a whole lot of work, early on. That's where the guys got frustrated; they didn't understand how crits and motive damage work. And, they were making a lot of those rolls when the mech shotguns started raining down on them.

Cannonshop

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #100 on: 09 October 2024, 17:14:58 »
They brought some burly, expensive vehicles. There wasn't much cover to work with but one player didn't use what he had. He'd exposed his entire force to hunkered-down heavy mechs two turns in. The Masakari's LBx-10 cluster and the Marauder's SB Gauss did a whole lot of work, early on. That's where the guys got frustrated; they didn't understand how crits and motive damage work. And, they were making a lot of those rolls when the mech shotguns started raining down on them.

"Burly and expensive" usually means 3/5 or slower, which is a poor choice for playing offense with a vehicle from the beginning.  Assault Tanks really only work as semi-fixed defenses or indirect fire-support if they have artillery or LRMs.

Somewhere to the rear.

And, they're expensive, which goes back to the sort-of-a rule of "If you can't afford to lose it, you can't afford to use it" when it comes to vees. (because when running conventional vees of any type, you WILL lose a few minimum, no matter what.)


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DevianID

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #101 on: 10 October 2024, 01:43:48 »
Ironically there is a real need for an 'Assault Hovercraft' in the game, we just dont have it.  Besides the JES1, at 5/8, all the other hovercraft are faster or lighter.  And the Jes1 doesnt have armor.  A hovercraft with maximum armor, or a 'superheavy' hovercraft up to 100 tons, still moves 5/8 minimum thanks to needed 20% weight to engine at 100 tons, which is pretty fast.  And because you are going max armor, getting 'immobilized' still stinks, but you brought your armor into the fight faster then any other movement type could.  A tracked moving 4/6 spends 40t on an XL fusion engine 10t on structure, while the hover at 100t would move 5/8, with 20t structure 20t ICE! engine, 10 ton lift fan.  So the 'assault' hover would legit be really useful at its the same weight in engine with more speed, and ICE is way cheaper then xl fusion, as both carry 390 armor max at 100 tons from what I saw.  What an awesome vehicle for assaulting someone from behind a river a proper assault hovercraft would be!

Daryk

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #102 on: 10 October 2024, 03:32:56 »
Heh... I've always considered the Saladin a "proper" assault hover... ;D

Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #103 on: 10 October 2024, 08:44:41 »
They brought some burly, expensive vehicles. There wasn't much cover to work with but one player didn't use what he had. He'd exposed his entire force to hunkered-down heavy mechs two turns in. The Masakari's LBx-10 cluster and the Marauder's SB Gauss did a whole lot of work, early on. That's where the guys got frustrated; they didn't understand how crits and motive damage work. And, they were making a lot of those rolls when the mech shotguns started raining down on them.

I use the Morrigu (Laser) all the time. It is not exactly cheap and has solid armor.  But it is part of a combined arms force.  I have had opponents ignore it, letting it pound targets w/ 2 or 3 hits a turn while it cruises forward.  I have had others try to take it out which opens them up to mechs and battle armor ripping what they push forward to get it.

IMO outside of "special" fights like mentioned - all VTOs or armor, or armor & infantry.  The only single typeforce that works is mechs, if you use any other type you must commit to combined arms to offset weaknesses.  Token armor or BA do not work for the average player.
Colt Ward
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #104 on: 10 October 2024, 11:25:02 »
"Burly and expensive" usually means 3/5 or slower, which is a poor choice for playing offense with a vehicle from the beginning.  Assault Tanks really only work as semi-fixed defenses or indirect fire-support if they have artillery or LRMs.

Somewhere to the rear.

And, they're expensive, which goes back to the sort-of-a rule of "If you can't afford to lose it, you can't afford to use it" when it comes to vees. (because when running conventional vees of any type, you WILL lose a few minimum, no matter what.)

The two Scaphas A's he was running could've been a PITA. But.... He didn't read up on the skidding rules and put 2/5 pilots in them. One of them slid right into terrain on the first turn and was disabled. The other one ended up disabled three hexes from my Nightstar and a Gauss round set off it's RAC5 ammo.

Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #105 on: 10 October 2024, 12:20:59 »
Criminal . . .Scapha I have used most is the MVSPL w/supercharger . . .and it has been a terror.  Was he also aware of Reflective armor weaki?
Colt Ward
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Cannonshop

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #106 on: 10 October 2024, 20:43:33 »
The two Scaphas A's he was running could've been a PITA. But.... He didn't read up on the skidding rules and put 2/5 pilots in them. One of them slid right into terrain on the first turn and was disabled. The other one ended up disabled three hexes from my Nightstar and a Gauss round set off it's RAC5 ammo.

That, to me, sounds like your group needs to put in some practice learning the graces and vices of vehicles in total, rather than relying on forum posts from idiots like me.

One of the main things that it's taken decades to beat into my head, is that no matter how well something works for ME, someone else will have the opposite experience-without either of us misinterpreting the rules.  I, for example, have never been able to make the infamous "Savannahmaster Swarm" work.

seriously, it's a tactic that has never worked for me.  it's like I get more than four of hte little things on a playing surface and all the numbers on my dice turn into ones and twos.

OTOH, I've managed to make things that fail for others, work pretty well-like rolling a company of Pattons with VTOL scouts against a Binary or Trinary of Clan 'mechs.  I've actually found ways to make that work (mostly playing the other player through pressure tactics and eating losses) It doesn't happen all the time, but it's significantly better than when I've tried to do it with Savannahmasters.

OTHER players have outright told me they can't make that work...but they seem to do alright with the savannahswarm.

The answer, then, is to play a lot.  Find what works for you, and refine it.

My answers on this thread, are merely 'This is what's worked for me' and it's worth about that much.

What's important isn't what's worked for ME, ti's what works for YOU.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #107 on: 10 October 2024, 22:02:05 »
Yeah . . . I never use a Timber Wolf A.  The SSRM ammo will ALWAYS get TAC'd early in the game.
Colt Ward
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #108 on: 14 October 2024, 09:51:08 »
Criminal . . .Scapha I have used most is the MVSPL w/supercharger . . .and it has been a terror.  Was he also aware of Reflective armor weaki?

Nope, he had no idea. He knew it cut down on damage from lasers but not the increased physical damage. NOW he does... Lol


DOC_Agren

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #109 on: 14 October 2024, 17:15:06 »
That, to me, sounds like your group needs to put in some practice learning the graces and vices of vehicles in total, rather than relying on forum posts from idiots like me.

One of the main things that it's taken decades to beat into my head, is that no matter how well something works for ME, someone else will have the opposite experience-without either of us misinterpreting the rules.  I, for example, have never been able to make the infamous "Savannahmaster Swarm" work.

seriously, it's a tactic that has never worked for me.  it's like I get more than four of hte little things on a playing surface and all the numbers on my dice turn into ones and twos.

OTOH, I've managed to make things that fail for others, work pretty well-like rolling a company of Pattons with VTOL scouts against a Binary or Trinary of Clan 'mechs.  I've actually found ways to make that work (mostly playing the other player through pressure tactics and eating losses) It doesn't happen all the time, but it's significantly better than when I've tried to do it with Savannahmasters.

OTHER players have outright told me they can't make that work...but they seem to do alright with the savannahswarm.

The answer, then, is to play a lot.  Find what works for you, and refine it.

My answers on this thread, are merely 'This is what's worked for me' and it's worth about that much.

What's important isn't what's worked for ME, ti's what works for YOU.

I will second this, and it been more then a few years and some rule changes but try out many different things, until you stumble into what works for you.  What even better is try that same force structure against style different Ops forces. 

I have a few friends who love Light Fast Mechs, so what can counter them doesn't work well for a Steiner Recon Lance.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Value of Speed in a Scout Helicopter
« Reply #110 on: 15 October 2024, 16:16:55 »
That, to me, sounds like your group needs to put in some practice learning the graces and vices of vehicles in total, rather than relying on forum posts from idiots like me.

One of the main things that it's taken decades to beat into my head, is that no matter how well something works for ME, someone else will have the opposite experience-without either of us misinterpreting the rules.  I, for example, have never been able to make the infamous "Savannahmaster Swarm" work.

seriously, it's a tactic that has never worked for me.  it's like I get more than four of hte little things on a playing surface and all the numbers on my dice turn into ones and twos.

OTOH, I've managed to make things that fail for others, work pretty well-like rolling a company of Pattons with VTOL scouts against a Binary or Trinary of Clan 'mechs.  I've actually found ways to make that work (mostly playing the other player through pressure tactics and eating losses) It doesn't happen all the time, but it's significantly better than when I've tried to do it with Savannahmasters.

OTHER players have outright told me they can't make that work...but they seem to do alright with the savannahswarm.

The answer, then, is to play a lot.  Find what works for you, and refine it.

My answers on this thread, are merely 'This is what's worked for me' and it's worth about that much.

What's important isn't what's worked for ME, ti's what works for YOU.

Yes, we could benefit from vehicle specific scenarios. We've talked about setting some up but it'll be outside of our normal weekend games. There's a few of us who either a) already know the vehicle rules well or b) simply don't play them. It would also behoove our guys to read the friggin' rules before they bring certain units. We all learn by playing but these guys didn't really know the basics of vehicle movement or how they take damage. Honestly, you can just look a damn vehicle record sheet and know things are different than mechs.
« Last Edit: 15 October 2024, 16:19:48 by OatsAndHall »

 

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