Space Marine Armor Thoughts.

[kashim12]

With all the conversions happening recently, I've been thinking about Space Marine armor in Battletech.  My thoughts are Primaris as light Battle armor, Space Marine as Medium Battle Armor and Terminators as Heavy Battle Armor with Dreadnoughts as Superheavy Battlearmor.  Thoughts on decent conversions?

[Hellraiser]

My thoughts are Primaris as light Battle armor,
 Space Marine as Medium Battle Armor and
 Terminators as Heavy Battle Armor with
 Dreadnoughts as Superheavy Battlearmor.

1.  Primaris?  The tall boys?   I would think that SCOUT armor is Light Battle Armor.
2.  Medium = Marines
3.  Heavy = This is what I'd call Primaris, the Tall Boys.   (EDIT:  Actually I'd call these Runic/Artificer Armor,  2+ Saves but w/o the Mobility hit that Termies get.)
4.  Terminators are Assault Battle Armor
5.  Dreadnoughts are clearly Protomechs w/ the Sarcophagus in the Torso v/s a curled up AS Pilot.

 
Left off PAL because for 2 points armor its barely better than Divisor-2 non-PA. 
I'd call PAL the stuff that regular(special) infantry get in 40K, like 4+ or 5+ Saves?  Carapace Armor?  It's not the "same" but its close enough.

[glitterboy2098]

IMO:
Sister of Battle and most inquisitors are using PAL.
Firstborn and Primaris armor is Light BA. the difference between the older marks II through VIIIs and the Primaros Mk X largely one of armor composition and supplemental systems.
MK X Gravis armor and Terminator armor are medium BA.
Dreadnoughts are Heavy and Assault BA.

[Daryk]

I'm with Hellraiser on the heavier end, but glitterboy has a good point about the lowest of the low end.

[Hellraiser]

I'm with Hellraiser on the heavier end, but glitterboy has a good point about the lowest of the low end.

I had to edit mine, because I wanted something between Medium/Assault & I realized Primaris wasn't a good choice but Artificer/Runic was a better fit.
(Better armor w/o loss of movement = Heavy can still mount JJs & be Omni-mechanized, unlike Assault BA afaik.)

[kashim12]

What would be good stats for each?  How would your represent the iconic Bolter? Considering it is some hybrid of a gyrojet and standard round on top of being .75 caliber round that is also armor-piercing explosive.

[Daryk]

A Bolter would just be a 0.60 or more damage weapon (that's the cap for Primary weapons and gives a unit the Heavy Burst special).  6AP/6BD will get you there with single shots.  5/6 or 6/5 will do it if you embrace the "explosive" bit as actually rising to "splash damage".  Range looks to be 1/2/3, just like a normal Auto-Rifle.

Fire rate is something that really isn't addressed in 40K, which is why I started with single shots above.  If you assume 3-round bursts of explosive rounds, 4/6, 5/5, or 6/4 all get you over 0.60 TW damage.  5/5 is my head canon value for 0.50 cal (with non-explosive rounds).  At 8 rounds, 4/5 or 5/4 do the trick (my head canon analog for 7.62).  With 13 rounds (effectively the same as the Auto-Rifle's 15), 4/4 explosive rounds are all you need.

[Vehrec]

A Bolter would just be a 0.60 or more damage weapon (that's the cap for Primary weapons and gives a unit the Heavy Burst special).  6AP/6BD will get you there with single shots.  5/6 or 6/5 will do it if you embrace the "explosive" bit as actually rising to "splash damage".  Range looks to be 1/2/3, just like a normal Auto-Rifle.

Fire rate is something that really isn't addressed in 40K, which is why I started with single shots above.  If you assume 3-round bursts of explosive rounds, 4/6, 5/5, or 6/4 all get you over 0.60 TW damage.  5/5 is my head canon value for 0.50 cal (with non-explosive rounds).  At 8 rounds, 4/5 or 5/4 do the trick (my head canon analog for 7.62).  With 13 rounds (effectively the same as the Auto-Rifle's 15), 4/4 explosive rounds are all you need.

I mean, this isn't exactly a normal primary weapon.  Space Marine arms might weigh 30+ kilos based on their sheer bulk and mass, not by including entire survival kits inside them.  A space marine bolter can tear an unuagmented human's arm off if fired incorrectly, so why should we treat it like a normal rifle instead of a BA weapon?

Though, it's worth noting that BT and WH40k have very different conceptions of how armor and guns work in their respective universes.  BT armor is worn down by heavy fire, while ceramite and adamantium plates reject most of what doesn't pen with little issue.  Of course, in the fiction, both allow for lucky hits and some piercing of their power armor by inferior weapons, but overall, there's a reason people keep saying that the land raider has 4 medium lasers when trying to make it in B-tech, while in Warhammer 40k the Goddhammer pattern lascannon is the highest power anti-vehicle weapon available short of Superheavy weapons.

[Hellraiser]

Bolters are weapons for BA, so, I wouldn't class them as Infantry scale unless I was doing so as a Support Weapon.

Which leads to where I'm going.

The Bolter should probably be an MG/LMG.

Which makes for a very average/normal type of weapon for Medium/Light BA at the BT scale.

[Daryk]

The minimal 40K research I did indicated there is MUCH debate about whether a "normal" human can wield a bolter.  That said, I wouldn't necessarily characterize a 6/6 weapon as less than a Support Weapon either.  The "gyrojet" aspect would tend to reduce the recoil, too.

As for BA weapons, the thing is even PA(L) with Armored Gloves can use any Infantry weapon with a crew of 1 or 1E.  That includes a number of infantry Support Weapons, so I think we're in the right ballpark.  The easiest of easy buttons is to simply grab a Grenade Launcher.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

With all the conversions happening recently, I've been thinking about Space Marine armor in Battletech.  My thoughts are Primaris as light Battle armor, Space Marine as Medium Battle Armor and Terminators as Heavy Battle Armor with Dreadnoughts as Superheavy Battlearmor.  Thoughts on decent conversions?

First I assumed that everyone would know that it is impossible to conversion it perfectly and the weight class doesn't fits well but,

Primaris as light battle armor while normal space marine as medium is just pointless for primaris is bigger than firstborn so they must not weaker/lighter than them. Actually, both are largely the same for bulky level so both at medium would be better. Light armor is better for non-augmented powered armored units such as SoB, SoS, and individual inquisitors without the augmentation.

Belisarian furnace of primaris is better represented by triple myomer implants instead, rather than weight class.

What about to represent gravis armor as heavy, and terminator as assault, for gravis can float? Else also classify gravis as medium and makes it VTOL armor is possible too.

LMG/MG would be suited for bolter, for bolter can harm the power armor while it's incapable to destroy it quickly.

[kashim12]

Good talk, good talk, but what would the stats look like? for each suit and weight class?

[Hellraiser]

Meh

Max Armor
Max Ground Movement
RA MG  (but mounted on the ForeArm more like a GK StormBolter, than hand held)
   This is so you can have an Armored Glove on that hand for delicate actions.
LA gets a typical Battle Claw  (Possibly Heavy or Vibro) to mimic the various CCW/PW things that SMs get w/o actually holding an Axe.

Its going to depend on available weight after the basics are done in order to see what sort of specific gun/claw they would get.

The Assault being a Termi would likely get something more than an MG.  Something to mimic AC or ML weaponry.

[Charistoph]

For the bolters, the first thing in my mind was the Recoilless weapons.

[DevianID]

So stats.  Power armor would be PA(L) in btech terms.  That covers sisters and such, basically everything that needs that backpack to function.  Scouts, with 4+ armor, are not in power armor (3+ save), so would use normal armored infantry rules.  Marines would have the max 2 armor, while sisters with fewer wounds in the same power armor would have 1 point.

Speed would be 1 MP, the PA(L) and the marine/sister power armor isn't 2x faster then infantry on foot.  However, you can add a jump pack and jump 2 MP in your PA(L).

Terminators and other 'heavy' infantry would be Light/medium BA. More armor, but still operate like normal infantry with 1 MP except for the jump pack versions.  So basic Gravis would be 3-4 points, terminators 8 armor+1 for trooper, and centurions would be 10+.  Centurions qualify for heavy battle armor as they had more health/guns then a terminator.

Dreadnaughts would be assault BA, just because the Kanazuchi is already a thing.  I'll note, the listed weights for lots of battle armor is flat out wrong, but thats an art/BA rule disconnect.  But the as pictured massive Kanazuchi and as pictured Dreadnaughts are pretty interchangeable.  The larger dreadnaughts/invictor warsuits appear to function like protomechs though, just slow versions.  I wouldn't use protomechs for any unit with less then 10 wounds, as 10 wounds was the bracket point where the unit could degrade (and protos degrade as locations get destroyed)

A dreadnaught would have 18 total health, mapping off bolters.

For weapons, that's a whole other ball of wax.  It takes 6 hits to drop a marine, so if using my suggested 2 armor PA(L), thats a reasonable .5-.6 personal weapon bolter.  Totally reasonable, they do not do more then this as they dont have blast/AP bonus dice.

It takes a heavy bolter 2 salvos that all hit to drop a PA marine, so heavy bolters do 1.5 damage rounded to 2 as support weapons, with a range of 2, and are heavy so 1E weapons.  Las cannons need a bit more then 1 hit, so about 1.73 damage, call it 2.  Range 3.  Missile launchers are a bit weaker but have blast/1d6 burst.  So 1.39 damage for Krak, rounded to 1, but with burst versus infantry.  Both las and krak would have the extra BA damage rule, for dealing +1d6 damage to battle armor like when using rules for bearhunters and such. 

[Hellraiser]

Dreadnaughts would be assault BA, just because the Kanazuchi is already a thing.  I'll note, the listed weights for lots of battle armor is flat out wrong, but thats an art/BA rule disconnect.  But the as pictured massive Kanazuchi and as pictured Dreadnaughts are pretty interchangeable.  The larger dreadnaughts/invictor warsuits appear to function like protomechs though, just slow versions.  I wouldn't use protomechs for any unit with less then 10 wounds, as 10 wounds was the bracket point where the unit could degrade (and protos degrade as locations get destroyed)

I hear what your saying about Art w/ the Kanazuchi, but I can't get behind any Dreadnought not being a Protomech.
How they are operated is just too different.
The Kana still has an active hands/feet using pilot (more like a mech cockpit) to be sure but at least it's not under "brain" control the way a ProtoPilot/Sarcophagus works.
Besides, other Assault BA do fully fit in the suit like the Grenadier/Hauberk.

There is also the fact that Protos are "Vehicle/Scale" like Dreadnoughts are.
Where as Assault BA still takes damage like Medium BA.

As much as the Kana Art isn't a great fit, there is no way I'm saying a Dreadnought is only twice the mass of basic Space Marines the way Medium/Assault armor are.

It occurs to me that the Primaris v/s Regular Space Marines comparison in suits/size is sort of like Elementals v/s Big Humans needed to pilot IS BA Suits per the RPG Bod/Str rules.  And while you don't see that at BT scale you do see it in the "Marine Points" rules for ship to ship combat.  Elementals count as 2 MP v/s regular human Marines.

[worktroll]

Put me down in the "Kanazuchis are dreadnoughts" camp. I've got a plan to paint a 'Zuch in Imperial Fist colours, a Kage in Ravens, Gray Death in Salamanders, and a Longinus in Ultramarine blue playing saxophone on top of a Land Raider ...

[Hellraiser]

Put me down in the "Kanazuchis are dreadnoughts" camp. 

If the other assaults were similar I might agree, but the others are very humanoid w/ proper sleeves/pantlegs

[DevianID]

If the other assaults were similar I might agree, but the others are very humanoid w/ proper sleeves/pantlegs

I think it's notable that the dreadnaught in 40k doesn't degrade like a vehicle, as it isn't quite big enough.  Protomechs degrade with damage, so the larger warsuits as protos in fine with.  But basic dreadnaughts, as well as the sister warsuits and penitent engines don't degrade, so they operate more like battle armor with a fixed health pool that is either 100% operational or dead.

I agree dreadnaughts are right at the cusp, but, well, something has to be at the cusp right?  And the distinction between "degrades in 40k" is where i drew the line for if something should count as a proto and degrade in battletech.  I couldnt ignore the synergy there.

[Daryk]

Degrading in 40K is a very different thing than degrading in BT.  I wouldn't use that as a yard stick.

[Hellraiser]

Another thing semi-related to what I mentioned above about Size.   Dreadnoughts being WAY more than 2 Marines in size  (Medium BA 1K v/s Assault BA 2K).

You know who is 2x the size of SM Armor?  (At least according to all the APC options)    Termies :)     They just scream Hauberk/Grenadier to me when you look at the Cyclone ML models.

[DevianID]

Based on similiar damage conversions, a terminator is a medium BA with 8+1 health to the PA(L) space marine at 2+1 health.  When comparing terminators to IS BA I see a lot of similiarities, though instead of a whole squad carrying should mounted SRM2 missiles, the terminators have a squad mount SRM2 with more ammo then the detachable OS packs.

[Charistoph]

There is another problem with Terminators, that being their shield.  There is no Battletech equivalent.

Closest I'd probably do, if one isn't willing to invent new gear, is go with Improved BA Stealth.  A whole lot of it.  That way they have better Defense then their other ground-pounding lads.

[Daryk]

That, and max armor for their size class (whichever one you go for).

[Hellraiser]

The reason I said Max Move & Max Armor is to represent the various Save options via Armor/Force.

It's also to eat up tonnage since no SM is weaponed out the way you can BA w/ multiple "main guns".

[Daryk]

I believe there's at least one Chapter Master with a "main gun" mounted to each arm, so it can be done in 40K.

[Hellraiser]

No idea about that.

I've seen Twin Bolters or a Storm Bolter split into 2 Fists, but I'm talking about someone being able to match the Armament of an Elemental.

IE... A Missile Launcher & APG on a "Medium" suit.

That isn't something I've seen on any 40K character.

Maybe one of those Heavy Weapon Termies but even those tend to be 1 in addition to a melee or bolter

[DevianID]

Yeah by weapons battletech has way more of them due to how battle armor construction works, until you get to the larger tanks and redemptor suits where the Marines are feastooned in too many little guns.  Terminators have good armor, like 7-9, and effectively a 1 damage 1/2/3 Infantry gun in the storm bolter, but only manage squad mount BA guns.  Elementals mount a support weapon like the terminators flamer/assault cannon, a missile launcher on the back, and an infantry gun, on each suit.  So the space marine equivelant feels chunkier and lower tech.  Now, tau battlesuits like the crisis are much closer to the capability of an elemental, with missiles, jump packs, and support guns, so only the melee of the terminator suit is up in the air for what it would count as.

[NUT-BUSTING TORQUE]

I imagine that the stock Aquila Space Marine armor is a walk 3, 10 armor medium suit. I'd say this changes up with the jump packs, but then I don't know what weapons you could actually wield. For the Primaris, I think the Primaris Phobos armor would be a light, but the Omnis would be a standard primaris with slightly less armor for the jump pack.

Terminators would be heavies or assaults, maybe only the Saturine would be an assault. Dreadnoughts I feel should be 'mechs.