Wolf's Dragoons Arrival TO&E

[RifleMech]

This has probably been asked before but I don't remember it.

I've wondered about this for a while. The Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook lists the combat assets as of 3029. After two supply runs, a contract with Blackwell and decades of salvage their TO&E would be very different from their arrival. We can see this in their TO&E as several Mechs and many vehicles listed wouldn't have been used by Wolf's Dragoons as they weren't available. One Mech we know they didn't have until their first supply run. Many others were post Exodus designs. Some weren't even produced until 3029 at the latest.

So if we had a TO&E for the Dragoons as of their 3005 arrival what would it look like? Did they arrive with more "lost' SLDF era designs that the Dragoons had either lost by 3029, or transferred to their training command?

How big is the training command? We know a battalion of cadets helped defend their dependents in 3028 so it at least that big. Probably bigger. What would their TO&E be like?

What support units do the Dragoons have besides techs? Do they have any Industrial Mechs? Exoskeletons? Engineering or other vehicles?

Would the Dragoons have any post TW infantry types? Mechanized, Engineers, etc?


My guess:

They easily could have had more downgraded lost and rare SLDF era Mechs and Vehicles as seen in TROs 3025r and 3039. To make them stand out more though there's other SLDF era Mechs that they could have had, like the Striker or a downgraded Excalibur or Shootist. Lost Nightsky, Cyrano, and Ripper VTOLs could have been replaced by the Ferret, Peregrine and Kestral VTOLs. I'm not sure about other SLDF vehicles but I'm sure they'd of been downgraded, if needed, like their mechs.

I think they would have had more LAMs. There's a few LAM Lances with only 3 LAMs so they could have been lost and not replaced. Also the Special Recon Group's Major Brubaker's Wasp stands out in the command lance full of LAMs. He was also promoted to command after Hesperus II. Did the previous commander also have a LAM?

I'm not sure how big support units would be but I'd imagine there'd be at least one per regiment. 3025 says they have 5 Mobile HQs but I don't see them listed in their sourcebook. This is where I'd put them. Since the Dragoons were so well equipped this is also where I'd put engineering, support, and supply units of all types.

The existing infantry could easily have additional abilities given to them. I can easily see some of the Seventh Kommando's platoons being demolition and mine laying engineers and other have sneak suits. Other engineers would be apart of the support group. Some of the currant Motorized Platoons could have started out as Mechanized. I doubt they'd have Beast Mounted Infantry. Field Gun/Artillery could be a part of the training command. Teach them to use the gun first before putting them in an expensive vehicle.

The Training Command I think would be regimental in size with a battalion each of Mech, Vehicles, and Infantry and a company of artillery, and specialized units (engineers) and squadron of fighters. The Mech Battalion would at least have Bug Mechs, Chameleons and Crockets  for mechs.

And they'd have dropships and jumpships for all of these plus their dependents and personal vehicles.

What are your thoughts? What would the Dragoons of 3005 look like? What support elements would they have?

[Colt Ward]

No Centurions or Jenner's IIRC.  Dragons would be out?  You would not have all the different Hunchback.  Grasshoppers were after.

Honestly I think it would look like the SLDF TRO w/o the lostech.  You would see things like Rifleman and no Jagermech.

[RifleMech]

No Centurions or Jenner's IIRC.  Dragons would be out?  You would not have all the different Hunchback.  Grasshoppers were after.

Honestly I think it would look like the SLDF TRO w/o the lostech.  You would see things like Rifleman and no Jagermech.

I do imagine they showed up with a lot more rare or lost SLDF era mechs and vehicles.  All downgraded of course. But which ones? I know we have options for Mechs but vehicles?

The Jagermech, Hunchback, Grasshopper, Trebuchet, and Dragon are all pre-exodus so they're possible. The Dragon is pretty much a Kuritan exclusive though, so probably not that one. The Enforcer is also pre-Exodus but is a Davion design so probably not this one too.

The Valkyrie, Hermes II, Vindicator are also post exodus so the Dragoons wouldn't have started with them. As for the Jenner, Kerensky did take some but probably not. If they did maybe the prototypes with turrets?

[Colt Ward]

Grasshopper was experimental and the one we read about (but never a RS!) from a BattleCorp story (GOOD design, ugh) stayed behind.  I also said Hunchback variants- Swaybacks & the like.

Nova Cats were unfamiliar with the Jenner per the IIc's fluff IIRC.

[ThePW]

*crack fingers, whines in pain* OW.

1656 Units. That is the sum of 5 Regiments (assuming they arrived while organized in FIVE Battalion strength Regiments) and 1 Battalion extra that became some famous sub unit filled to the brim with Shogun-class 'mechs). The math is actually less if you do the math via Clan organization (the sum is between 720 and 1200 units, which maybe I'm mathing wrong; I'm just going by free hand =sum(X*3 or *5... I could very well be overthinking this and trusting Bill Gates too much)

the question you ask is easier said than dumb. To really attempt an answer, besides looking at wiki and the various TROs (all of them, not just the latest recognition guides, though the RGs will be the most organized and authentic)

No matter what, you need NUMBERS to start out with. Then you can start assigning 'mechs to that ToE you are asking about. Some of the 'mechs will be easy. There will be DOZENS of Archers, T-Bolts and Warhammers and Marauders. Griffins and Shadow Hawks (but NO Wolverines). Those six 'mech designs will be the back bone of your ToE because the SLDF left with Hundreds (if not thousands) of them (Exodus left with hundreds of BRIGADES, so an Excel spread sheet would take weeks for your to type out). It will also have Orions, Awesomes, Battlemasters, Wasps and Stingers. Virtually anything from the original 1st printing of TRO 3025, there will be at least a dozen examples. Then you fill in numbers of the post exodus designs, by lots of a dozen or more. Then you throw in random pre-Armaris 'mechs in very controlled numbers... Now you also have to think in terms of what WON'T Be there, besides no Wolverines. No Clints (because the prototypes and few Normals would be destroyed or IIC'd, same with Commandos and the few Dragons that travelled with Exodus)

Stingers-Many
Wasps-Many
Griffins-Many
Shadow Hawks-Many
T-Bolts-Many
Archers-Many
Warhammers-Many
Marauders-Many
Orion's-Many
Awesomes-Many
Battlemasters-Many
Stalkers-Many

Easier said than dumb. 

please add to this list or check my math?

[ANS Kamas P81]

Five regiments with five battalions each, plus an extra battalion of 'Mechs.  So a total of 26 battalions, with 36 'Mechs in each one.  I only get 936 'Mechs by that count, not 1,656.  You're pretty spot on on the types of 'Mechs chosen, though; standard Star League standbys that would be in huge number among the Clans.

Also I think you meant "easier said than done."

[GRUD]

I don't have it in PDF (not sure if it even IS available in PDF), and I'm not sure Where my print version is, but I was thinking the WD Sourcebook showed they had one Company of LAMs?     Want to say it was a Recon Company?  Seems like 1 or 2 PHK, the rest STG and WSP.

The scenarios in the back of the SB list What 'Mechs to use in each one, AND they would have the Date of each Battle listed, so that might help a bit also.

[Hellraiser]

The Exodus was in 2784

So to clarify some of the statements above about what WAS or WAS NOT available.

Jenner JR7-D      2785   

Jenner JR7-F      2784   
Grasshopper GHR-5H   2780   
Jenner JR7-A      2779   
Quickdraw QKD-4G   2779   
JagerMech JM6-A      2778   
Vulcan VL-5T      2778   
Enforcer ENF-4R      2777   
Vulcan VL-2T      2777   
JagerMech JM6-S      2774   
Dragon DRG-1N      2754
Dragon DRG-1C      2752   

[Hellraiser]

No Centurions or Jenner's IIRC.  Dragons would be out?  You would not have all the different Hunchback.  Grasshoppers were after. 

Centurions - Correct.
Jenners - Iffy, AK didn't take any, but it WAS in prototype testing for the A variant & then the F, but the Production-D model was a year after Exodus.
Dragoons they had plenty of examples since they made the Great Wyrm from them.
Swaybacks - Correct
G-Hopper - No, it reached the production 4 years before the Exodus.  New to be sure.  And downgraded for Production.  But it had started.

I do imagine they showed up with a lot more rare or lost SLDF era mechs and vehicles.  All downgraded of course. But which ones? I know we have options for Mechs but vehicles?

Unlikely.
Why?  Because they stopped in the Periphery and did Recon.
It was there that they pulled a bunch of "too advanced units" from their inventory, stuck them in the cargo holds of their 6 Warships, & Left them in Mothballs till 3053-5ish

The Jagermech, Hunchback, Grasshopper, Trebuchet, and Dragon are all pre-exodus so they're possible. The Dragon is pretty much a Kuritan exclusive though, so probably not that one. The Enforcer is also pre-Exodus but is a Davion design so probably not this one too.

The Valkyrie, Hermes II, Vindicator are also post exodus so the Dragoons wouldn't have started with them. As for the Jenner, Kerensky did take some but probably not. If they did maybe the prototypes with turrets?

See note about Dragon above, they Exodus had them for sure, but, probably not troves of them.
For that matter, your likely not seeing ANY of the "last decade" designs in massive #s compared to the stuff that had been in production for 50-250 years.

Grasshopper was experimental and the one we read about (but never a RS!) from a BattleCorp story (GOOD design, ugh) stayed behind.  I also said Hunchback variants- Swaybacks & the like.

Nova Cats were unfamiliar with the Jenner per the IIc's fluff IIRC.

Noted above.
Agreed.
Agreed.  (At best they might have had some early notes on it for potential testing, but, not tons of copies that would have survived Exodus-2.0 Pentagon Wars.)

[Hellraiser]

(assuming they arrived while organized in FIVE Battalion strength Regiments) 

They did not, so, why even count that high.

and 1 Battalion extra that became some famous sub unit filled to the brim with Shogun-class 'mechs).

Actually the Shogun was quite "rare with small #s that never increased or decreased".
This little tidbit of fluff was likely a hint at the hidden CASE the unit used to survive ammo explosions.

No Clints (because the prototypes and few Normals would be destroyed or IIC'd, same with Commandos and the few Dragons that travelled with Exodus)

I'd probably agree w/ this.  Anything that was used as a "same tonnage IIC" conversion probably didn't have many examples left in Brian Caches.
And logistically it wouldn't make sense to give the Goons this "1-off last Commando we found in storage".
Better to outfit them w/ lots of repeated common designs as you mentioned below.

Stingers-Many
Wasps-Many
Griffins-Many
Shadow Hawks-Many
T-Bolts-Many
Archers-Many
Warhammers-Many
Marauders-Many
Orion's-Many
Awesomes-Many
Battlemasters-Many
Stalkers-Many

It really could be broken down to be..........
"Unseen to include LAMs" Minus Wolverines/OstRoc
PLUS
Light - Spider, Firestarter
Medium - Assassin, Cicada, Whitworth, BlackJack, Hunchie, Dervish
Heavy - Ostsol, Catapult, Orion
Assault - Awesome, Stalker,  (Rare Cyclops/Atlas)


There are a few other mechs that technically could have been included in the Dragons, like the above mentioned Dragoons/Commandos, or even Jaggers, but, my guess is that there were so few of those in SLDF #s & then to survive Pentagon Wars, Klondike, Clan Trials, etc etc, and then, to be "Logistically Common Enough" to warrant a spare parts supply to go with the Dragoons for upkeep, yeah, not likely.

Stuff like Spiders/LAMs are heavily consolidated in Recon Lances, Air (LAM) Lances, or the Special Recon Group
Most of the basic "Lights" are the Bug Trio, since even Firestarters are "Battalion" level assets.

[Rob Bendig]

Would looking at XOTL's RAT for the make up of Star League forces in 2750 (34 years prior to Exodus) give insight into which mechs WD would likely have arrived with? This would be:

Light - Thorn, Mercury, Ostscout, Falcon, Spider, Hussar, Firestarter, Hermes, Mongoose, Firefly, Night Hawk, Talon, Locust, Stinger, Spector
Medium - Cicada, Sentinel, Whitworth, Phoenix Hawk, Hunchback, Shadow Hawk, Wyvern, Wolverine (well, not likely given...stuff), Dervish, Kintaro, Crab, Hoplite, Griffin, Kyudo, Osprey
Heavy - Ostroc, Champion, Ostsol, Catapult, Warhammer, Thunderbolt, Lancelot, Helepolis, Exterminator, Guillotine, Marauder, Orion, Archer , Bombardier, Shootist, Crusader, Excalibur, Black Knight, Galahad, Flashman
Assault - Cyclops, Victor, Longbow, Banshee, Striker, BattleMaster, Stalker, Awesome, Thug, King Crab, Crockett, Mackie, Highlander, Pillager, Rifleman, Emperor

[Colt Ward]

Night Hawk, Spector, Shootist, Excalibur (got EC treatment), Galahad never got downgrades.

Emperor's downgrade is a old Primitive, so no- same with Pillager.

Highlander is, as noted, less likely b/c of the IIcs that were made out of Brian Cache reserves.

No Mackies b/c of Snord's response to finding one.

Talon is a bit off b/c of it's recent retcon.

[RifleMech]

Unlikely.
Why?  Because they stopped in the Periphery and did Recon.
It was there that they pulled a bunch of "too advanced units" from their inventory, stuck them in the cargo holds of their 6 Warships, & Left them in Mothballs till 3053-5ish

Yes, they left behind advanced tech but they still brought lost and rare designs (Falcon, Flea, Firefly, Hoplite). I don't know why they couldn't have arrived with other lost and rare designs. They'd of had to with their vehicles as many in their TO&E are post Exodus designs.

See note about Dragon above, they Exodus had them for sure, but, probably not troves of them.
For that matter, your likely not seeing ANY of the "last decade" designs in massive #s compared to the stuff that had been in production for 50-250 years.

Agreed.

Noted above.
Agreed.
Agreed.  (At best they might have had some early notes on it for potential testing, but, not tons of copies that would have survived Exodus-2.0 Pentagon Wars.)

I'd probably agree w/ this.  Anything that was used as a "same tonnage IIC" conversion probably didn't have many examples left in Brian Caches.

And logistically it wouldn't make sense to give the Goons this "1-off last Commando we found in storage".
Better to outfit them w/ lots of repeated common designs as you mentioned below.

(snip)

There are a few other mechs that technically could have been included in the Dragons, like the above mentioned Dragoons/Commandos, or even Jaggers, but, my guess is that there were so few of those in SLDF #s & then to survive Pentagon Wars, Klondike, Clan Trials, etc etc, and then, to be "Logistically Common Enough" to warrant a spare parts supply to go with the Dragoons for upkeep, yeah, not likely.

Numbers is good but I wouldn't discount, prototypes, rare designs or Pentagon Survivors, and SLE and Clan production. The Dragoons do use rare mechs (Annihilator, Imp, Shogun). The Annihilator didn't see production until just before the Pentagon Civil War started. The Dragoon's Fireflys match those used by Pentagon Powers and may even have been used by them. And there's the Clan designed Imp. The SLDF Exiles also put the Hoplite back into production. I also wouldn't discount a Mech just because there's a IIC. If they're using IICs the originals would be in storage or they if they were converted could be converted back. That's a lot of options for additional designs the Dragoons could have initially arrived with, or received on resupply runs, beyond what was common in the IS.

Would looking at XOTL's RAT for the make up of Star League forces in 2750 (34 years prior to Exodus) give insight into which mechs WD would likely have arrived with? This would be:

(snip)

Good list. Thanks.  Some of those would need to be downgraded but it could be done. I wouldn't include the Mackie though. I think there was one intact Mackie in Clan space.

TRO:3058U has Shootists in Clan Brian Caches. Kerensky also took 50 Spartans. I think Kerensky would have taken surviving Nightstars too.  I'd say they're maybes but I'd think one of their TRO entries would have mentioned the Dragoons arriving with some. The Striker is also possible and wouldn't need any downgrading.

Night Hawk, Spector, Shootist, Excalibur (got EC treatment), Galahad never got downgrades.

Emperor's downgrade is a old Primitive, so no- same with Pillager.

Highlander is, as noted, less likely b/c of the IIcs that were made out of Brian Cache reserves.

No Mackies b/c of Snord's response to finding one.

Talon is a bit off b/c of it's recent retcon.

EC Treatment?

The Emperor was introduced in 2612. That's nearly a century after they stopped producing primitives.

I wouldn't discount the Highlander and other IICs that were converted from SLDF designs. TRO:3060 has Clan Wolf opening a cache and upgrading a stars worth. It also says,

Recent information also indicates that Wolf’s Dragoons had several Highlanders when they traveled to the Inner Sphere.

  If they did, they either were left with their Warships or were destroyed early on before the IS could create a TO&E for WD. And with their first resupply mission just 2 years after their arrival either is possible.

[Colt Ward]

Actually the Emperor ALSO got the EC treatment.

Besides the Excalibur not having a more primitive version, both the Excalibur and Emperor have 'Early Clans' models where they put prototype weapons.  This indicates they were used rather than stored by the respective Clans.  The Wolves took to the Excalibur which you can see reflected in Woodsman, Gargoyle and Timber Wolf configs.  In fact the Emperor 6A EC was used extensively by the Star Adders before it was replaced by Highlanders.

IIRC, the Highlander IIc fluff ALSO says stocks ran low so they started new building depending on the Clan.  I am not saying there would be no Highlanders, but they would be very rare- then you have to figure out what downgraded model they would use.

But am I going to bat an eye at a early Dragoons jumping assault lance using a Emperor 5A, Highlander 733/733C/733P, Crockett, Shogun 2E?  No

[ANS Kamas P81]

As asked, what's the EC treatment?

[Hellraiser]

Yes, they left behind advanced tech but they still brought lost and rare designs (Falcon, Flea, Firefly, Hoplite). I don't know why they couldn't have arrived with other lost and rare designs. They'd of had to with their vehicles as many in their TO&E are post Exodus designs.

Falcon was in production when they left the IS.  They had a bunch but didn't realize how rare it had gotten in the IS.
Flea lines were never destroyed, just changed over to Heavier mechs, so it got Rare but wasn't "missing" from IS inventories.
Firefly & Hoplite factories were destroyed during the Amaris war but had been in production for a century or more. 
  It would be logical to think that the IS still had "some".
More importantly, The Dragoons had them in large #s in full Introtech versions.

The point about not bringing rare designs is rare TO THE DRAGOONS.
Why send something that will break down from lack of parts by the time you get back to the IS?

Numbers is good but I wouldn't discount, prototypes, rare designs or Pentagon Survivors, and SLE and Clan production. The Dragoons do use rare mechs (Annihilator, Imp, Shogun). The Annihilator didn't see production until just before the Pentagon Civil War started.

See above.
It's a 2 fold issue.  Bring stuff you can repair.  Try keep tech level secret.
In the case of the Imp/Annihilator they were clearly choosing to show some of their mystique with totally unknown mechs.
That or someone at the Brian Cache Logistics Group didn't have a good grasp of history with old redacted fire damaged records & didn't realize they were issuing Post Exodus designs.  (Which after 200+ years & lots of rewriting clan history by Nicky K......... meh...... it's not entirely implausible I suppose.)


Example.

There were like 1000 total Crabs produced IIRC.
Assume half were destroyed in the Amaris war.  (Generous)
Of the rest some stayed as House/Mercs, some went to C*,  but 300 went w/ the Clans.
Then of those another 1/2 of them were destroyed in Pentagon Wars/Klondike
So your down to 150 (Generously) and those are divided by 20 clans giving them 7-8 each.
Of those 50% Brian Cache & 50% Clan 2nd Line initially.
So when the Goons get outfitted the Wolves have what, 2 left in storage?  5 more in Epsilon Galaxy?

Do you issue those out, or dive into the dozens of PhoenixHawks still in storage?

I actually find it interesting that Zeta Assault Battalion does have full on clan made mechs.
That might actually give you an indication of just how few Atlas, Awesome, Stalker, & Longbow intro tech Assaults were left in storage 200 years later.

[Hellraiser]

As asked, what's the EC treatment?

Stands for "Early Clan".
IIRC they show up on the Golden Century product.
Basically some refits that were done to IS Mechs using Prototype or Clan tech before it all became mainstream.

[Hellraiser]

I am not saying there would be no Highlanders, but they would be very rare- then you have to figure out what downgraded model they would use.

I think this is an issue here.

The OP is saying they could downgrade, but, most of the "downgrades" were IS compromises.

I mean, we do have some examples of full on clan downgrades like the Shogun-2E IIRC which wasn't the SLDF model that was the 2H.

But for the most part, as you noted, there is no Downgraded Excalibur & something like the Crab/Lancelot downgrades isn't something the clans would likely know about.


Myself, I'm thinking why try to make something up or justify a design they wouldn't have known about when there are easier answers.  Use what we KNOW they had plenty of.  All the designs you already see in their TO&E.   Unseens & other pre-exodus 3025 models

[Hellraiser]

How big is the training command? We know a battalion of cadets helped defend their dependents in 3028 so it at least that big. Probably bigger. What would their TO&E be like?

Mechanized, Engineers, etc? 

1.  I doubt there training command is larger than the battalion.
The goons were notorious about avoiding a lot of IS "hires"
They were also not into the whole "adoptee/WarOrphans" thing till after the 4th SW & their control of Outreach.

A battalion of cadets is the size of most IS Academy Cadres    (Outside of the 3 Brigade sized from 2 FS & 1 DC academy)
At best maybe it was a Battalion of "Mechs" and they have some smaller sized units for Inf/Vee/ASF as well.
But I don't see it being much.  This is after all a Merc Unit.  Big but they aren't supplying a House March.


2.  I would assume the Dragoons have plenty of "Specialty/Crosstrained" infantry given the 7th Commando, Spec Ops Group, Recon Group, Support Group, & their line infantry units.
Enough to get the job done anyway.  Not Regiments of them.

[Colt Ward]

As asked, what's the EC treatment?

Actually the Emperor ALSO got the EC treatment.

Besides the Excalibur not having a more primitive version, both the Excalibur and Emperor have 'Early Clans' models where they put prototype weapons.  This indicates they were used rather than stored by the respective Clans.

[Liam's Ghost]

Only skimmed the thread so this may have already been mentioned, but the original Dragoon Marauders would have almost certainly been downgraded 1 or 2Rs rather than 3Rs, because the 3R was a succession wars era downgrade rather than a Star League model.

Even if the Dragoons stripped out all the advanced tech, right down to the CASE (if they did that, given the precedent of the Shogun) there would still be a subtle but significant difference. The ammo for the Autocannon is on the same side as the gun, so they would be less likely to explode in combat.

[Hellraiser]

Only skimmed the thread so this may have already been mentioned, but the original Dragoon Marauders would have almost certainly been downgraded 1 or 2Rs rather than 3Rs, because the 3R was a succession wars era downgrade rather than a Star League model.

Even if the Dragoons stripped out all the advanced tech, right down to the CASE (if they did that, given the precedent of the Shogun) there would still be a subtle but significant difference. The ammo for the Autocannon is on the same side as the gun, so they would be less likely to explode in combat.

It's little things like this that make for interesting what if.
Like did they manage to match the 3R perfectly w/o having knowledge of it?
Did "the watch" provide them info on sorts of things ahead of time?
Did the early Marauder have CASE but less Armor since we know Ferro was a no-no?  Did it have the same armor but still have the ammo in the opposite torso?
Or were Marauder's absent from their Inventory & all the 3R's in 3029 were recent acquisitions?

[DEZOAT]

 I would like see what the Dragoons brought with them to the inner sphere 3005. The start of their mission .

[RifleMech]

Falcon was in production when they left the IS.  They had a bunch but didn't realize how rare it had gotten in the IS.
Flea lines were never destroyed, just changed over to Heavier mechs, so it got Rare but wasn't "missing" from IS inventories.
Firefly & Hoplite factories were destroyed during the Amaris war but had been in production for a century or more. 
  It would be logical to think that the IS still had "some".
More importantly, The Dragoons had them in large #s in full Introtech versions.

The point about not bringing rare designs is rare TO THE DRAGOONS.
Why send something that will break down from lack of parts by the time you get back to the IS?

By the time the Dragoons arrived the Falcon was nearly extinct. The Firefly and Hoplite were.
I didn't say "missing' I said lost or rare. Rare = Falcon and Flea. Lost= Firefly and Hoplite.

We also don't know what numbers of what the Dragoons had when they arrived in the IS. We do know that had 2 resupply missions and plenty of salvage over the years as well as Blackwell and other firms they'd purchase from. That means losses so their arrival TO&E won't be the same as the SB TO&E.

See above.
It's a 2 fold issue.  Bring stuff you can repair.  Try keep tech level secret.
In the case of the Imp/Annihilator they were clearly choosing to show some of their mystique with totally unknown mechs.
That or someone at the Brian Cache Logistics Group didn't have a good grasp of history with old redacted fire damaged records & didn't realize they were issuing Post Exodus designs.  (Which after 200+ years & lots of rewriting clan history by Nicky K......... meh...... it's not entirely implausible I suppose.)

I'd go with the latter as the Clans don't seem to be big on studying history.

Example.

There were like 1000 total Crabs produced IIRC.
Assume half were destroyed in the Amaris war.  (Generous)
Of the rest some stayed as House/Mercs, some went to C*,  but 300 went w/ the Clans.
Then of those another 1/2 of them were destroyed in Pentagon Wars/Klondike
So your down to 150 (Generously) and those are divided by 20 clans giving them 7-8 each.
Of those 50% Brian Cache & 50% Clan 2nd Line initially.
So when the Goons get outfitted the Wolves have what, 2 left in storage?  5 more in Epsilon Galaxy?

Do you issue those out, or dive into the dozens of PhoenixHawks still in storage?

I actually find it interesting that Zeta Assault Battalion does have full on clan made mechs.
That might actually give you an indication of just how few Atlas, Awesome, Stalker, & Longbow intro tech Assaults were left in storage 200 years later.

Numbers are good but you send what you have. Otherwise you're sending known Clan made machines or having to get from other Clans telling them you can't supply your troops.

Stands for "Early Clan".
IIRC they show up on the Golden Century product.
Basically some refits that were done to IS Mechs using Prototype or Clan tech before it all became mainstream.

Thank you.

I think this is an issue here.

The OP is saying they could downgrade, but, most of the "downgrades" were IS compromises.

I mean, we do have some examples of full on clan downgrades like the Shogun-2E IIRC which wasn't the SLDF model that was the 2H.

But for the most part, as you noted, there is no Downgraded Excalibur & something like the Crab/Lancelot downgrades isn't something the clans would likely know about.


Myself, I'm thinking why try to make something up or justify a design they wouldn't have known about when there are easier answers.  Use what we KNOW they had plenty of.  All the designs you already see in their TO&E.   Unseens & other pre-exodus 3025 models

The downgrades from TRO:3025r and TRO_3039 would be the easiest to go with. They'd be a case of similar thinking. What we know of their numbers is a question. The Wolves were one of the most prosperous of the Clans so they'd have plenty of material in storage. We've never been given an inventory of what's in storage though. We do know the Dragoons did not arrive with Annihilators though as it says they received them in the first resupply run in 3009. So they Dragoons could have arrived with several Highlanders, or other designs, and lost them all in 4 years of fighting.

And the question isn't just about mechs either. Most of the vehicles listed in the SB TO&E are post-Exodus designs. On wasn't even introduced until 3030, the same year the SB was produced in universe.

1.  I doubt there training command is larger than the battalion.
The goons were notorious about avoiding a lot of IS "hires"
They were also not into the whole "adoptee/WarOrphans" thing till after the 4th SW & their control of Outreach.

A battalion of cadets is the size of most IS Academy Cadres    (Outside of the 3 Brigade sized from 2 FS & 1 DC academy)
At best maybe it was a Battalion of "Mechs" and they have some smaller sized units for Inf/Vee/ASF as well.
But I don't see it being much.  This is after all a Merc Unit.  Big but they aren't supplying a House March.


2.  I would assume the Dragoons have plenty of "Specialty/Crosstrained" infantry given the 7th Commando, Spec Ops Group, Recon Group, Support Group, & their line infantry units.
Enough to get the job done anyway.  Not Regiments of them.

They'd have to have more than 1 Battalion as "a battalion" helped defend their dependents. I'd guess the rest were escorting them.

With 3 platoons = 1 Company, and 3 Companies = 1 Battalion the Dragoons had at least 3 Battalions of jump and motorized infantry spread around their various units. I'd think they'd have at least a company of each minimum being trained at a time. There's more armor, I'd think at least a battalion with at least 1 company being artillery. They'd also be training new techs to keep things in house.


Makes sense so if we had a new TO&E they'd list any specialties with them.

[RifleMech]

Only skimmed the thread so this may have already been mentioned, but the original Dragoon Marauders would have almost certainly been downgraded 1 or 2Rs rather than 3Rs, because the 3R was a succession wars era downgrade rather than a Star League model.

Even if the Dragoons stripped out all the advanced tech, right down to the CASE (if they did that, given the precedent of the Shogun) there would still be a subtle but significant difference. The ammo for the Autocannon is on the same side as the gun, so they would be less likely to explode in combat.

Excellent point!

It's little things like this that make for interesting what if.
Like did they manage to match the 3R perfectly w/o having knowledge of it?
Did "the watch" provide them info on sorts of things ahead of time?
Did the early Marauder have CASE but less Armor since we know Ferro was a no-no?  Did it have the same armor but still have the ammo in the opposite torso?
Or were Marauder's absent from their Inventory & all the 3R's in 3029 were recent acquisitions?

Good questions!
Natasha used a Marauder so I would think she arrived with it but it's still possible she got it after a resupply mission.
It's also possible the downgrade mimicked the 3R without being a 3R
Valiant Lamellor, according to the Marauder's fluff is better than other armor and that it has to be patched with conventional armor so that they resemble patchwork quilts.   It's possible that the IS may not have recognized if the  Dragoon's Marauders had FF Armor or not. Comstar would have been suspicious but even they were using downgrades and with the PPCs and Heat Sinks downgraded it'd be difficult to prove without capturing one.

[Rob Bendig]

So, vaguely off-topic but I'm not familiar enough with the lore. What was the state of Clan intelligence of Inner Sphere at the time of assembling the Dragoons? I thought it was not very good - so the Clan assumptions would be:
1) Don't send anything with Clan developments in it (no Clan upgrades)
2) Assume that Exodus-era Star League is representative of the IS baseline (i.e. unaware of both lost designs and of the general decline in tech).

In other words while in actuality the Firefly and Hoplite might be extinct in the IS to all intents and purposes, the Clans would have been unaware and would naturally assume these would be good candidates to include given their broad deployments pre-Exodus.

No factories due to destruction during Amaris Civil War - sure but you're going to assume that they've been rebuilt in the intervening years.

[Hellraiser]

I could be wrong but I believe the Watch had minor updates from scanning Periphery News & such.

Rare & Incomplete basically.

IIRC they had heard about the Succession Wars.

They got much better info once the Dragoons starting sending in reports.

EDIT:
Yep, found this on Sarna
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Intelser

[Liam's Ghost]

Hilariously according to the article Intelser assumed the periphery was representative of the state of the Inner Sphere, but the Wolves still thought it'd make sense to send WarShips with the Dragoons.

What in god's name did they run into in the periphery to make them think that?