"Alien" Combat vehicle

[Vehrec]

This is a bit of an odd duck-based loosely on an alien design from another game.  It's...well, it's intended to be a use-anywhere tank which can operate in hard vacuum or under 50 meters of water, which has low maintenance and nothing that can really break and only needs to resupply to re-up it's hydrogen for the fuel-cell (stored not as slush or compressed gas, but as metallic hydrogen that you very carefully peel a bit off at a time.) and the food for the crew.  Armed with a pulse laser, it's able to keep firing all day-or until it runs low on energy in it's power boosters.

Of course, this all comes at a price.  It carries about as much weight in heat sinks or environmental sealing and amphibious movement as it does armor.  It doesn't carry any secondary weapons, just the one pulse laser.  And in B-tech, the fusion equivalent design would be about 20 tons lighter and more capable...but in it's own settings, fusion engines smaller than about 500 tons don't exist, so you get this awkward compromise design.

Code: [Select]

Onnet Type 014

Mass: 60 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 240 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
     1 Large Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-C
Cost: 2,670,000 C-bills

Type: Onnet
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 847

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    6
Engine                        240 Fuel Cell          14
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   10                      9
Control Equipment:                                  3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    1.0
Turret:                                             1.0
Armor Factor (Ferro)          188                  10.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   6         51   
     R/L Side               6/6      33/33   
     Rear                    6         26   
     Turret                  6         45   


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location    Tonnage   
Large Pulse Laser             Turret       7.0     
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     Body        6.0     
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     Body        2.5     



[DevianID]

Any reason it has to be 60 tons, or has to have that much armor?  Like, are you working off a 60 ton image?

You can do a 20 ton, environmentally sealed fully amphibious 4/6 tank with a medium pulse laser and 71 points of armor, if you just want a go anywhere robust armored vehicle.

At 60 tons, and limited amphibious, with a short ranged large pulse laser but a lot of armor, im having trouble seeing the vision.  It not really a swarm vehicle, its too environmentally specialized for that.  It has a lot of armor relative to other vehicles, but isnt meant to pound away at long range--even with the sealing, you are gonna get breached pretty quick in your chosen environment, so all that armor seems overkill/wasted... I dont think you will survive more then 4 hits in a vacuum, so 188 armor feels ambitious.  4/6 is paying for some speed but 4/6 isnt very fast, so you arnt scouting or chasing anything down in the harsh environments.
An ER large laser, or PPC, both slot in and provide more range which is really important in vacuum fights, to act like a more normal tank.  Or, a large laser like a bulldog saves several tons for backup weapons or to reduce the size from 60 tons.  I think I would go smaller/cheaper, and/or longer ranged, if you expect vacuum and underwater fighting.  An LRM5 and LRT5, with a large laser, kinda like a bulldog look, would allow you to breach from farther away.

Is there a picture I can see?, maybe if I see the OG design itll make more sense.

[Sabelkatten]

I don't know if I've got this right, but... Weird rules interaction?

Amphibious only allows surface movement, right?

Environmental sealing allows ground movement along bottom (like a mech), right?

What happens if you turn off the amphibious equipment to move along the bottom, and then turn it on? Impossible to do? Vehicle pops to the surface like a cork? Vehicle turns into a submarine? A naked singularity is created and the planet implodes?

[Vehrec]

Any reason it has to be 60 tons, or has to have that much armor?  Like, are you working off a 60 ton image?

You can do a 20 ton, environmentally sealed fully amphibious 4/6 tank with a medium pulse laser and 71 points of armor, if you just want a go anywhere robust armored vehicle.

At 60 tons, and limited amphibious, with a short ranged large pulse laser but a lot of armor, im having trouble seeing the vision.  It not really a swarm vehicle, its too environmentally specialized for that.  It has a lot of armor relative to other vehicles, but isnt meant to pound away at long range--even with the sealing, you are gonna get breached pretty quick in your chosen environment, so all that armor seems overkill/wasted... I dont think you will survive more then 4 hits in a vacuum, so 188 armor feels ambitious.  4/6 is paying for some speed but 4/6 isnt very fast, so you arnt scouting or chasing anything down in the harsh environments.
An ER large laser, or PPC, both slot in and provide more range which is really important in vacuum fights, to act like a more normal tank.  Or, a large laser like a bulldog saves several tons for backup weapons or to reduce the size from 60 tons.  I think I would go smaller/cheaper, and/or longer ranged, if you expect vacuum and underwater fighting.  An LRM5 and LRT5, with a large laser, kinda like a bulldog look, would allow you to breach from farther away.

Is there a picture I can see?, maybe if I see the OG design itll make more sense.

  There's not a picture, no, but there is a description, spread out across several forum pages and posts.  I'll see if I can round it all up into something short and coherent, though that will take some time.  But it uses a pulse laser because the original one uses a pulse laser, because every tank in it's setting uses either a pulse laser or a railgun.  Railguns are for home defense tanks though, so the expeditionary tank needs a pulse laser.  It has ten tons of armor so that a power-armor laser can't just poke holes through it all day, same for IFV lasers.  Importantly, in it's own setting, a pulse-laser is not short range but is instead able to penetrate different classes of targets at different ranges-against tanks, it's got about 1 km of range, against IFVs, 2-3 kilometers.  I think the key to all this is this description of doctrine.

Laser Battlefield Armored Warfare: Formalized doctrinal improvements to focus on the inherent limitations and concerns of a laser battlefield have been documented and moved to direct consideration. Range limitations of all laser systems including vehicle ones typically preclude engagements by vehicles of equivalent armor across frontal aspects with reasonable systems. This continues to infantry with closer range combat universally seen as more lethal on all sides as plating rapidly scales down in effectiveness at less than a hundred meters. In response to these considerations, combat is reshaped significantly with armor closing if at all able to avoid engagements becoming indecisive long-range skirmish engagements. (Alien Derived) (Doctrine) (New 47 AE)

As for tonnage, it's probably lighter than the 80 ton tank destroyers that were made to fight the similar expeditionary tanks of one alien invasion force.

Type 46 "Fragarach'' Tank Destroyer: A fixed gun tank destroyer weighing almost eighty tons with a massive onboard battery system and a light generator system made to slowly trickle charge the general vehicle. The onboard 6 MW generator is made to power the four 1MW drive motors along with recharging the main gun over five minutes when necessary with a massive use of diesel fuel oil. The tank is not expected to use the feature outside of emergencies, but the dual drive system allows for it to be used outside support assets. Frontal armor protection is sufficient to resist tank firepower on the upper plate when emplaced and dug in, but the lower plate remains vulnerable to IFV fire. All-around protection from rifle fire has been achieved through the use of applique armor kits, with the goal of the program being the firing of a 12kg armature at 10 km/s. Railgun operation is highly dangerous and the systems onboard are unreliable but the Type 46 is the first machine to offer a genuine threat to enemy armor.

I don't know if I've got this right, but... Weird rules interaction?

Amphibious only allows surface movement, right?

Environmental sealing allows ground movement along bottom (like a mech), right?

What happens if you turn off the amphibious equipment to move along the bottom, and then turn it on? Impossible to do? Vehicle pops to the surface like a cork? Vehicle turns into a submarine? A naked singularity is created and the planet implodes?

Huh, you know, I put it on to give it a better 'unsticking' mechanism so they didn't become hopelessly bogged down any time it did a deep crossing but...yeah, it's kinda unclear.  Maybe I should just remove that bit.  I could shrink it down to 7 tons of armor, 45 tons of total mass with that.  I'd just thin the sides down to hardly anything and the back down to yikes.  50 frontal/15 side armor is plenty, right?

[DevianID]

So to be nerdy, 4mw of drive power is a 5000+ horsepower 80 ton tank destroyer.  So assuming the tank destroyer has modern tank suspension and those electric engines behave sensibly, that 4mw engine lets you move really fast, having a 1km time from stopped of 30 seconds on a flat track--to put that in perspective the Abrams only goes 400 meters in 30 seconds by the time this 5k horsepower tank moves 1000 on a racetrack.  Is that the intention?  4 Megawatts/5000 horsepower is an awful lot of oomph even if you are 80 tons, so if those tank destroyers are described as ripping around crazy agile, sure...  But it sounded like the tank destroyer wasn't supposed to be a speed demon heavy monster, but a slow plodding sniper.  (in btech terms, in 10 seconds a 5k horsepower 80 ton vehicle can displace itself 330 meters on a track, so id give it a 6/9 speed offroad, when not on racetrack conditions.  5k horsepower in electric engines is like, a lot)
EDIT: looking at the electric motor cybertruck, it seems that electric engines may not maintain their efficiency like the abrams gas turbine.  If the 4mw motors of the 80t vee behave like the 600hp electric motors on the 3 ton cyber truck, then youd only get about 3/5 speed out of them.  Suspension losses are hard to account for on fictional vehicles, ranging like 75% to 30% and making a big impact.

I like analyzing stuff like this, im just trying to get a feel for the capabilities.

As for 'pulse' lasers, the normal btech laser is effectively a pulse laser.  Its not a multisecond melting cancer beam, its should be a very quick pulse of energy.  Quick pulses of energy are just way more energy efficient to vaporize and explode armor.  Btech 'pulse' lasers sound like they just fire smaller more numerous pulses to drill more efficiently, so deeper penetration but smaller size hole, so I wouldnt let the 'pulse' laser term prevent you from using normal btech laser weapons.

[RifleMech]

Why not mixed tech? It has enough heat sinks to mount a Clan LPL which will double the tank's firing range at 20 hexes. It'll also free up 1 ton. An ER LPL will hit even further at 23 hexes. The tank would need 3 more tons for heat sinks but the lighter laser provides 1 ton. That could be provided dropping the amphibious chassis mod. You said it traveled on the bottom of the water so environmental sealing should be good enough.
As for armor, why not use Hardened of Ferro Lamellor? Fewer points per ton but still lots of protection.

[Vehrec]

Maybe if we were designing strictly for performance, yeah, I thought about the clantech lasers.  I guess they fit the design, since the aliens in question have totally standardized on pulse lasers and  such, but I was hesitant to push directly into clantech for what is supposed to be a Space T-72.  As for Ferro-Lamellor and hardened, well, again, it's supposed to be the space T-72, but on the other hand, the author of the fiction gave us this lovely little table last night.

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Amorphos Carbon (ME ~0.4 VE ~0.6)
mixed state expansive foam (ME ~0.6 VE ~0.1)
Compacted CNT (ME 0.55 VE 0.9)
High Entropy Ceramic (ME 0.65 VE 2)
High Entropy Ceramic-Demantoid Lattice (ME 0.8 VE 1.4)
Domestic Solid State Diamandoids (ME 0.85 VE 1)
Foreign Solid State Diamandoids (ME 1 VE 1)
Foreign Diamandoid Ultra-Hards (ME 0.95 VE 1.2)
Foreign Diamandoid Composites (ME 1.1-1.3 VE 0.9-0.7)
[11:08 PM]
As a quick kinda
[11:08 PM]
comparisonI believe this design is meant to be a 'Foreign Solid State Diamondoids' one, or maybe an Ultra-hard diamondoid.  But, by the same token, the *lower* end of this list, is supposed to be Tech Level B or C stuff, the compacted CNT or Amorphous Carbon being what you might call 'early 22nd century anti-laser armor', and the 'high entropy ceramics' being like using Endosteel for armor plate because you've been steeling tech and advanced structural materials are some of the best stuff you've got for materials science.

[RifleMech]

Maybe if we were designing strictly for performance, yeah, I thought about the clantech lasers.  I guess they fit the design, since the aliens in question have totally standardized on pulse lasers and  such, but I was hesitant to push directly into clantech for what is supposed to be a Space T-72.  As for Ferro-Lamellor and hardened, well, again, it's supposed to be the space T-72, but on the other hand, the author of the fiction gave us this lovely little table last night.

Code: [Select]

Amorphos Carbon (ME ~0.4 VE ~0.6)
mixed state expansive foam (ME ~0.6 VE ~0.1)
Compacted CNT (ME 0.55 VE 0.9)
High Entropy Ceramic (ME 0.65 VE 2)
High Entropy Ceramic-Demantoid Lattice (ME 0.8 VE 1.4)
Domestic Solid State Diamandoids (ME 0.85 VE 1)
Foreign Solid State Diamandoids (ME 1 VE 1)
Foreign Diamandoid Ultra-Hards (ME 0.95 VE 1.2)
Foreign Diamandoid Composites (ME 1.1-1.3 VE 0.9-0.7)
[11:08 PM]
As a quick kinda
[11:08 PM]
comparisonI believe this design is meant to be a 'Foreign Solid State Diamondoids' one, or maybe an Ultra-hard diamondoid.  But, by the same token, the *lower* end of this list, is supposed to be Tech Level B or C stuff, the compacted CNT or Amorphous Carbon being what you might call 'early 22nd century anti-laser armor', and the 'high entropy ceramics' being like using Endosteel for armor plate because you've been steeling tech and advanced structural materials are some of the best stuff you've got for materials science.

Without knowing the universe or their opposition is using, I'd still go with the Clan LPL. As for the table, the armor sounds a lot more advanced that the Tech B armor on the T-72. It also sounds more advanced than the Tech C armor on a M1 Abrams. Maybe upper Tech C?  It you're going to go with BAR 6-7 Armor shouldn't the space tank be built using support vehicle rules?

[Vehrec]

To clarify, when I call it a 'Space T-72' I do not mean that the armor is exactly the armor on a T-72, I mean that the role of this tank, in the larger galactic enviroment of armored vehicles, is much like that of the T-72, with many upgrade families, made necessary by the sub-optimal protection by modern standards.  Since the tank is an import from a multi-planetary alien state, although an obsolete import without any of the upgrade packages and it's electronics replaced by civilian off-the-shelf tech, it has advanced technology, by the standards of those who acquire it, but is still significantly lagging the cutting edge, even with modernization packages.

[RifleMech]

To clarify, when I call it a 'Space T-72' I do not mean that the armor is exactly the armor on a T-72, I mean that the role of this tank, in the larger galactic enviroment of armored vehicles, is much like that of the T-72, with many upgrade families, made necessary by the sub-optimal protection by modern standards.  Since the tank is an import from a multi-planetary alien state, although an obsolete import without any of the upgrade packages and it's electronics replaced by civilian off-the-shelf tech, it has advanced technology, by the standards of those who acquire it, but is still significantly lagging the cutting edge, even with modernization packages.

That sounds cool. How far has it been upgraded and what are the locals armed with?

[DevianID]

For armor, the fictional components I dont think matter so much as the weight, for btech purpose.  Really, its nice and simple there, if its advanced TECH E armor, then you get the ferro, tech F you get clan ferro, tech D the simple 16 points per ton.  If you are shooting for a 'tech C', but dont want BAR 7 type stuff, can do primitive armor to differentiate from the standard 16 points per ton tech D stuff. 

The ME versus VE, is that more like Kinetic Energy versus Explosive?  If so, are those numbers some equiv of RHA?  Not really important for btech armor, which doesnt use pen values, but if you went with more % of the layers good versus thermal damage, could maybe to reflective, or if you went with more of the Kinetic armor layers the ballistic reinforced armor.  The 2 values seem pretty balanced though, whatever they ME/VE are, so i dont think you need reflective or ballistic armor to get the desired effect.

[Vehrec]

Well, I don't know the exact weight of the armor-the writer isn't interested in how much it masses on each facing.  You hear that 'the turret side on this design is actually weaker than the hull sides' sometimes, but exact weights for most vehicles aren't forthcoming. 

ME vs VE is Mass Efficiency vs Volume Efficiency, so a plate of Mixed State Expansive Foam is 1.66 times heavier than an equivalent plate of diamondoid-and ten times thicker.  This is relevant actually, because the locals had an AFV they armored with foam at one point in the invasion, and it took adding two whole meters of the stuff to get decent laser resistance.

That sounds cool. How far has it been upgraded and what are the locals armed with?

Well, I don't know what the upgrade limits are, but the players were given three choices with the tank-clone their existing tank hardware and get it quickly into service, redesign the interior, or a complete redesign to eliminated turret-popping via some unconventional choices.

They went with cloning their existing tank hardware, but here's the full text of all three options.  As for local armaments, they've made their first laser rifles (10.6 kilos 'infantry', 50 kilos 'power armor') and they've just begun a warship program to produce a common frigate/corvette hull, engine, and primary armament, with the corvette adding missiles while the frigate adds fuel and cargo for sustainment to those basics.

Imported Tank Modernization Program: The establishment of domestic production of the Type 014 Tank has been far simpler than making it function on a modern battlefield. The production tooling for the sensor kits has arrived inadequate with even example products in effect obsolescent compared to current standards. Onboard computational systems can best be considered equivalent to a tablet rather than anything remotely competent with a crew section that does not take any measures to protect the crew, placing them directly around an even for the Xolotlans obsolete capacitor system. The turret is under-armored compared to expectations as it is expected to receive the most fire in general tank combat but has failed to be increased in protection. Still, the base systems have very much made the Type 014 a modern tank and one that can be renovated and brought to adequate combat service if time is spent on modernization. (42)

[]Clone Type 45B Systems: The armament complex on the tank is in itself old and the armor worse but avoiding making any changes or developing new systems can provide significant intermediary experience. Significant developments in sensor and awareness systems have yet to come with the current generation of armor and work can focus on other procurement projects. Transferring the systems directly will minimize the cost of funding and enable a modified and modernized variant to enter mass production in an accelerated time frame. Issues in the turret armor notwithstanding the priority to protect the capacitors over the crew are understandable if crews are more available than armor. (50B Or) (Ends Procurement)

[]Redesign the Interior: Improving the tank's protection and general ergonomics is possible while still maintaining most of the hull forms conceits. The turret can be made unmanned by lowering the crew into a series of hull pods beside the driver with a further improvement to protection across the central plate made. The central turret basket will be replaced with a SMES system to increase power density, achieving significant gains in overall performance and a slight weight reduction that will be immediately invested into HECD composite add-on kits. This would in effect lower the operational crew to two, relying on automated spotting systems and combined perception to maintain situational awareness with the driver and gunner splitting the responsibilities of the commander role. (50B Or)

[]Comprehensive Reconstruction: The most valuable part of the pile of shit that was purchased is the general hull design, engine, and laser system rather than any of the associated parts. Hull armor can be doubled through the use of an addon HECD composite plate on the front hull, a side skirt added to protect the tracks from light laser fire. To provide the weight for the refit the turret armor will be reduced to only be proof against power armor weaponry and an SMES will be installed to supply power for the motive system with a single fuel cell replacing the dual system, in effect using the SMES as a battery for general operations and limiting the likely to be a sixty-ton vehicle to 1MW of power for prolonged maneuvers. Sensor systems will be improved and theoretically, it is expected that a detonation of the central section can be made survivable in the frontal crew pod. (150B) (Total Redesign, just keeps the engine, gun, suspension, and front plate)

Which would you have picked?

[RifleMech]

For the Type 014 Tank one I would go with a Support Vehicle with basic fire control.

For the Clone Type 45B I'd give it an armored weapon and improved sensors.

Redesign the Interior gets upgraded with advanced fire control (to lower crew requirements) and an armored weapon. The capacitor system makes me think of a PPC but there's some Lasers that mix PPC components so you could go either way. From how the SMES sounds here you could go with an improved weapon for "lower weight and increased performance".

The Comprehensive Reconstruction would have an upgraded chassis. The other components below would make it a combat vehicle chassis. In addition to above, it'd have modular armor (HECD composite add-on kits), armored motive system, a combat vehicle escape pod, and improved targeting/sensors. A supercharger could be used as the SMES here.

In all variants I lean towards mixed armor with a lower BAR on the turret. The last variant would have the lowest BAR rating to reduce weight and only be effective against power armor weapons.

[Vehrec]

Update: Well, the cheap and cheerful alien tank didn't actually get produced in great enough numbers to make a dent (only about 10 per week) and it's outdated anyways, so the army wants MORE.  Now they want a tank destroyer, using new mimetic camouflage (stealth armor?), a massive great honking railgun with a refire rate of two seconds and a clip of 3-6 rounds, before the entire thing has to scoot away and recharge, along with the multi-targeting computer to switch shots between targets in a single ambush.  All that on a 35 ton chassis.  Though, one company is going for 40 tons, tracks, and a turret. 

[RifleMech]

Stealth Armor sounds good. As for the gun, I think a Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle would be the best match.

[Vehrec]

Stealth Armor sounds good. As for the gun, I think a Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle would be the best match.

Oh, it gets better.  One of the proposed designs, from a company called Avalon Industrial Trust, is just to re-use the chassis of the Type 36 APC, an 8x8 wheeled vehicle which...look, it's a pre-contact design.  It's maybe a C-class structural chassis, refitted with a fuel-cell engine, ripping off the rear of the hull and shoving a casematted gun onto it.  With stealth armor, because incredibly, this is the only design of three that is actually hitting it's frontal thermal emission targets.

The other two design proposals are from UNSIA (I don't know what that's an abreviation for) who say 'let's put an actual turret and armor for the crew on this, even if it can't fire sideways without flipping over' and Lunos Industries' bid to use AI and DNI equipment, to overcome the limits of non-turreted weapons and improve combat awareness.

I tried to make the Avalon design, but the low-tech hull, the paired lasers, and the fact that you can't put Stealth armor on a support vee meant I had to get a bit creative.  Micro pulse lasers are totally a valid AMS with enough optional rules, right?

Code: [Select]

Type 36ET Support Tank
<p>
<b>Mass: </b>35 tons<br/>

<b>Movement Type: </b>Wheeled<br/>

<b>Power Plant: </b> Fuel Cell<br/>
<b>Cruising Speed: </b>43.2 kph<br/>
<b>Maximum Speed: </b>64.8 kph<br/>
<b>Armor: </b>BAR 10</b><br/>
<b>Armament:</b><br/>
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 Micro Pulse Laser<br/>
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 HAG/20<br/>


<b>Communication System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Targeting & Tracking System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Introduction Year:</b> 3145<br/>
<b>Tech Rating/Availability:</b> F/X-X-X-E<br/>
<b>Cost:</b> 992,141 C-bills<br/>
</p>




 
Type: Type 36ET
Chassis Type: Wheeled (Medium)
Technology Base: Mixed (Advanced)
Mass: 35 tons
Battle Value: 523

Equipment                                         Mass (tons)
Chassis/Controls                                    9.5
Engine/Trans.                                       5.5
    Cruise MP:4
Flank MP:6
Heat Sinks                    2                     2.0
Fuel                                                0.5
Power Amplifier                                     0.5
Armor Factor (BAR 10)         35                    2.0

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         15   
     R/L Side               2/2       7/7   
     Rear                    2         6     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location    Tonnage   
Micro Pulse Laser                          Left        0.5     
HAG/20                                    Front        10.0   
Micro Pulse Laser                         Right        0.5     
Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle/20 Ammo (18)     Body        3.0     

Cargo
    None

Notes:
Features Armored Chassis Chassis and Controls Modification
ECM Suite(1 ton)



[RifleMech]

It looks good. You can put stealth armor on a support vehicle using the patchwork armor rules in TO:AUE but you have to put it in each location.

Micro pulse lasers as AMS?  I'm not sure. I believe they can be used by AS units for AMS but I don't know of any rule that lets ground units do so. I'd be okay house ruling it though.

The UNSIA sounds like a top heavy tank with a heavy gauss rifle. It also sounds like it has a mixed crew of people and AI. I don't think we have rules for that. There is fluff with SLDF tanks having automated turrets but no rules that I know of. There is a VDNI though so it could use that.

[Vehrec]

Update on the design progress:

Two major issues have formed in further prototypes, mostly that thermal cover over the turret mechanism is imperfect and can only somewhat compensate for the vehicle's immense thermal output. Further, the turret itself introduces a source of instability when fired more than forty degrees off the centerline, especially in unstable terrain. Both problems are not inherently outside of design applications and UNISA has gone ahead with scaling production of both somewhat dysfunctional designs citing the need for mobilization. Practical initial batches are unlikely to reach a thousand per annum before 54AE and it is likely that the worst issues involved in the tank destroyer will be fixed. The gun itself performs up to standard, with a moderately reduced barrel life guaranteeing eighty standard shots, sixteen pair-rapid shots, three triple shots, or a four shot series once. Accuracy degradation in either firing pattern is mild with the rigid materials and superconductors tending towards explosive failure over the degradation of significant capability. As the vehicle is protected from a firepower failure and the possibility of required engagement conditions, the ability to fire an unlimited number of que’d shots has been integrated as an emergency wartime measure to be authorized by the commander in case of necessity.

That's a unique flaw right there, 'cannot fire turret in non-frontal arcs without piloting check to not roll the tank over.'  And the 80-16-3-1 railgun endurance before it explodes is pretty bad.  But 1000 produced per year?  Not that bad, especially for the beginning of a production spool.

Code: [Select]

USIA Type 53 Tank Destroyer

Mass: 40 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 120 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Armor: Vehicular Stealth
Armament:
     1 Laser AMS
     1 HAG/20
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-E
Cost: 2,054,500 C-bills

Type: USIA Type 53
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 40
Battle Value: 842

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    4
Engine                        120 Fusion              6
Cruising MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks:                   15                      5
Control Equipment:                                  2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             1.5
Armor Factor (Vehicular Stealth)80                      5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   4         30   
     R/L Side               4/4      11/11   
     Rear                    4         12   
     Turret                  4         16   


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location    Tonnage   
Laser AMS                                 Turret       1.0     
HAG/20                                    Turret       10.0   
Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle/20 Ammo (24)     Body        4.0     
ECM Suite                                  Body        1.5     



[RifleMech]

Update on the design progress:

That's a unique flaw right there, 'cannot fire turret in non-frontal arcs without piloting check to not roll the tank over.'  And the 80-16-3-1 railgun endurance before it explodes is pretty bad.  But 1000 produced per year?  Not that bad, especially for the beginning of a production spool.

Sounds good. The tank is going to want to shoot then scoot rather than fire on the move. Gives it an older tank feel.

The thermal thing sounds like a similar problem the Demolisher has with the crews needing to wear special suits. Too bad there isn't a rule for vehicle heat problems.

[Vehrec]

I think the thermal problem is less that the tank destroyer's interior is unhinahbitable due to heat, and more it is impossible to fully shroud the heat of the gun when it is fired.  So, if you fire, the effects of the stealth armor are, temporarily, negated.  Not great, but hardly unexpected for the first implmentation of a monkey-model stealth system you cloned from a precursor drone.

Incidentally, the game next looks to be building an IFV, with the following design options, in addition to the obvious requirement of a squad of infantry carried, and light(30T max), medium (45T max) or heavy vehicle (60T max) armor:

[]Non-Strategic Material Use: Use things that don't require holding the orbitals to make this work
[]Domestic High Performance MH Cell: Build a new engine from scratch, rather than using a cloned truck engine.
[]High Mobility Requirements: Maximum speed engine
[]Amphibious Capability: Float or drive along the bottom of water
[]Modular Armor Packages: No really, don't use strategic materials for armor-but if you have to, you can make it an insert plate.
[]Modular Systems: Replace the whole turret if it's damaged.  Though, the fuel-tank of this vehicle is like 1.5 Tons of TNT going off.
[]Foreign Atmosphere Support: Not quite vacuum sealing, but close.
[]Moderate Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals
[]Extreme Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals 2, Electric Bogaloo
[]SPLAA Integration: Use a LAMS/AA laser targeting computer to shoot down missiles and drones before they hit you.
[]MH Missile Systems: Lob 200 kilos of TNT equivalent downrange with these spicy danger missiles.
[]Drone Control System: A drone-control variant.
[]MDLS Platform: A drone-launching variant, and the 1 ton bomb it lobs at the enemy.
[]Tank Conversion: Rip out the troop compartment, and put a BIG LASER in the turret and BIG ARMOR on the front for a cheap tank varrient.
[]Anti-Railgun APS: in theory, you can read the electromagnetic spike from a firing railgun and use it to launch a cloud of tungsten to break-up the front of the projectile and make it tumble.
[]Enhanced EWAR Systems: Use the latest generation of ECM equipment. 
[]Low Emission Communication Systems: Laser Coms for Double-blind games.

[CarcosanDawn]

I think the thermal problem is less that the tank destroyer's interior is unhinahbitable due to heat, and more it is impossible to fully shroud the heat of the gun when it is fired.  So, if you fire, the effects of the stealth armor are, temporarily, negated.  Not great, but hardly unexpected for the first implmentation of a monkey-model stealth system you cloned from a precursor drone.

Incidentally, the game next looks to be building an IFV, with the following design options, in addition to the obvious requirement of a squad of infantry carried, and light(30T max), medium (45T max) or heavy vehicle (60T max) armor:

[]Non-Strategic Material Use: Use things that don't require holding the orbitals to make this work
[]Domestic High Performance MH Cell: Build a new engine from scratch, rather than using a cloned truck engine.
[]High Mobility Requirements: Maximum speed engine
[]Amphibious Capability: Float or drive along the bottom of water
[]Modular Armor Packages: No really, don't use strategic materials for armor-but if you have to, you can make it an insert plate.
[]Modular Systems: Replace the whole turret if it's damaged.  Though, the fuel-tank of this vehicle is like 1.5 Tons of TNT going off.
[]Foreign Atmosphere Support: Not quite vacuum sealing, but close.
[]Moderate Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals
[]Extreme Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals 2, Electric Bogaloo
[]SPLAA Integration: Use a LAMS/AA laser targeting computer to shoot down missiles and drones before they hit you.
[]MH Missile Systems: Lob 200 kilos of TNT equivalent downrange with these spicy danger missiles.
[]Drone Control System: A drone-control variant.
[]MDLS Platform: A drone-launching variant, and the 1 ton bomb it lobs at the enemy.
[]Tank Conversion: Rip out the troop compartment, and put a BIG LASER in the turret and BIG ARMOR on the front for a cheap tank varrient.
[]Anti-Railgun APS: in theory, you can read the electromagnetic spike from a firing railgun and use it to launch a cloud of tungsten to break-up the front of the projectile and make it tumble.
[]Enhanced EWAR Systems: Use the latest generation of ECM equipment. 
[]Low Emission Communication Systems: Laser Coms for Double-blind games.

As a first blush before putting in too much effort, how's these for analogous systems in Btech:
[]Non-Strategic Material Use: Use things that don't require holding the orbitals to make this work
- In BTech, I think only Endo-Steel and above requires orbitals. Ferro-aluminum doesn't, at the very least, so stealth armor should still be fine.

[]Domestic High Performance MH Cell: Build a new engine from scratch, rather than using a cloned truck engine.
- Fuel Cell engine, probably.
[]High Mobility Requirements: Maximum speed engine
- Depends on base tonnage, but it's likely that the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE SPEED at a given tonnage will preclude the use of some other systems.
[]Amphibious Capability: Float or drive along the bottom of water
- easy with amphib hull or sealed.
[]Modular Armor Packages: No really, don't use strategic materials for armor-but if you have to, you can make it an insert plate.
- also easy; Modular armor is a thing (not sure if it can fit on vees but vehicle armor in BTech is already pretty modular, given how easy it is to replace).
[]Modular Systems: Replace the whole turret if it's damaged.  Though, the fuel-tank of this vehicle is like 1.5 Tons of TNT going off.
- Sounds like an omnivehicle with a fuel-cell engine.
[]Foreign Atmosphere Support: Not quite vacuum sealing, but close.
- Environmental sealing covers this I think, though there may be a middle step in TacOps or the like.
[]Moderate Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals
- Stealth armor does this explicitly!
[]Extreme Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals 2, Electric Bogaloo
- NullSig System maybe, or even VoidSig though that's usually visual spectrum. I doubt it's a Chameleon shield, as that's explicitly only visual.
[]SPLAA Integration: Use a LAMS/AA laser targeting computer to shoot down missiles and drones before they hit you.
- Laser AMS already exists.
[]MH Missile Systems: Lob 200 kilos of TNT equivalent downrange with these spicy danger missiles.
I don't know what an MH missile system is, but BT isn't short of a billion different kinds of missiles depending on what is most appropriate. (200 kilos of TNT may be directly translatable to BT; my first-cut guess is a Thunderbolt missile of some flavor).
[]Drone Control System: A drone-control variant.
DCCS and drone controls exist.
[]MDLS Platform: A drone-launching variant, and the 1 ton bomb it lobs at the enemy.
A hi-scout drone carrier with a 1-ton suicide drone, lol. Sounds good!
[]Tank Conversion: Rip out the troop compartment, and put a BIG LASER in the turret and BIG ARMOR on the front for a cheap tank varrient.
Why laser? With fuel cell engines, lasers are inefficient.
[]Anti-Railgun APS: in theory, you can read the electromagnetic spike from a firing railgun and use it to launch a cloud of tungsten to break-up the front of the projectile and make it tumble.
Chaff launcher, check.
[]Enhanced EWAR Systems: Use the latest generation of ECM equipment.
WAT, check. Society, or at least Clan, I hope!
[]Low Emission Communication Systems: Laser Coms for Double-blind games.
1 ton of comms gear...

Fitting all that onto a single vehicle will be hard with a 1 ton infantry bay, but I think I can take a stab.

EDIT: Having taken a stab, my earlier comment is true: "maximum speed" is essentially undefined, because engine rating. Instead, I'll interpret this as "maximum speed possible while meeting all other requirements."

[Vehrec]

In this setting, monolithic and shaped composite Diamondoid armor require access to the orbitals, and are the standard formost armored vehicles.  Non-strategic materials are both more dense and less effective against some weapons for a given thickness.

The full text of High Mobility requirements is thus:

A high power twin drive train can be mandated so that the vehicle can achieve 120 kw per ton in surge power, enabling the vehicle to maneuver at high speeds for short term combat loads. Cooling for the additional engine power is not expected to be needed as the shortages of SMES power are expected to only be used for ten to fifteen minutes during extreme maneuvers. Still, the capability to move faster than comparative forces can offer significant advantages in frontline reconnaissance operations.

MH is Mettalic hydrogen, about 20 kilograms of which has the explosive force of 1 ton of TNT.  So the MH missiles have a warhead that weighs about 4 kilos-awkwardly sized for Battletech.  The drones, on the other hand...

The turret and rear compartment can be replaced with a quasi VLS launch system, packing in compact 240mm drone munitions. These would likely be powered by mixed composite MH ramjets active after initial boost, terrain following on a sub 100km trajectory as guided in by battalion level assets. Warhead limitations on the platform are likely to limit theoretical designs to a 20kg MHSH, equivalent to a ton of TNT and performing excellent anti-bunker work, if with limitations on anti-armor performance.

They use a laser for the tank variant because they just keep rolling laser technology and nothing else.  They've reverse engineered lasers, stolen lens technology, and gotten precursor care packages full of lasers.  Over 20 years in-setting, they've gone from 'FTL Drive, what's this?' and 'So alien soldiers wear power armor and have laser rifles?' to 'Trying not to get conquered by the ****** East India Company' 'launching our first Warship, Aurora!  Thanks to our 'friends' the East India Company for their logistical and technical support!Yes we stole your PPC design, yes, we know you just backed a fascist coup attempt.  You're on notice fellas.'  So 'Why Laser' is because in the setting, fusion engines don't get smaller than about 500 tons, they're reading the doctrine of faction that already uses lasers for everything, and they got laser technology so they're gonna use it! 

[RifleMech]

I think the thermal problem is less that the tank destroyer's interior is unhinahbitable due to heat, and more it is impossible to fully shroud the heat of the gun when it is fired.  So, if you fire, the effects of the stealth armor are, temporarily, negated.  Not great, but hardly unexpected for the first implmentation of a monkey-model stealth system you cloned from a precursor drone.

Which sounds like the fluff for the Demolisher. The AC/20s generated so much heat when fired the crew had to wear special suits. There just aren't rules for it though.

Incidentally, the game next looks to be building an IFV, with the following design options, in addition to the obvious requirement of a squad of infantry carried, and light(30T max), medium (45T max) or heavy vehicle (60T max) armor:

[]Non-Strategic Material Use: Use things that don't require holding the orbitals to make this work
[]Domestic High Performance MH Cell: Build a new engine from scratch, rather than using a cloned truck engine.
[]High Mobility Requirements: Maximum speed engine
[]Amphibious Capability: Float or drive along the bottom of water

All doable things.

[]Modular Armor Packages: No really, don't use strategic materials for armor-but if you have to, you can make it an insert plate.

Other than Modular Armor, it sounds like a fluff thing but you could use "refit kit" and patchwork armor to "insert" plates.

[]Modular Systems: Replace the whole turret if it's damaged.  Though, the fuel-tank of this vehicle is like 1.5 Tons of TNT going off.

Modular Weapon's and Fragile Fuel Tank Quirks?

[]Foreign Atmosphere Support: Not quite vacuum sealing, but close.
[]Moderate Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals
[]Extreme Thermal Camouflage: How not to be seen on thermals 2, Electric Bogaloo

Enviro Sealing would cover foreign atmosphere support and driving along the bottom of bodies of water.

Stealth armor.

Stealth armor with a better ECM that works while on?

[]SPLAA Integration: Use a LAMS/AA laser targeting computer to shoot down missiles and drones before they hit you.
[]MH Missile Systems: Lob 200 kilos of TNT equivalent downrange with these spicy danger missiles.

Laser AMS
Thunderbolt-15?

[]Drone Control System: A drone-control variant.
[]MDLS Platform: A drone-launching variant, and the 1 ton bomb it lobs at the enemy.

Drone systems are available.
Enough cargo space for a small support vehicle. Not sure how heavy it'd be though.

[]Tank Conversion: Rip out the troop compartment, and put a BIG LASER in the turret and BIG ARMOR on the front for a cheap tank varrient.
[]Anti-Railgun APS: in theory, you can read the electromagnetic spike from a firing railgun and use it to launch a cloud of tungsten to break-up the front of the projectile and make it tumble.

Doable.
How big is the troop compartment vs laser? If it's got a fuel cell engine a medium laser would weigh 3-4 tons depending on if you're using a combat or support engine.
AMS with a house rule allowing use against railguns?

[]Enhanced EWAR Systems: Use the latest generation of ECM equipment. 
[]Low Emission Communication Systems: Laser Coms for Double-blind games.

Easy. Which are they using now?
Use Battle Armor equipment (laser microphone)? Otherwise 1 ton of Com Equipment house ruled to require direct line of sight?

A high power twin drive train can be mandated so that the vehicle can achieve 120 kw per ton in surge power, enabling the vehicle to maneuver at high speeds for short term combat loads. Cooling for the additional engine power is not expected to be needed as the shortages of SMES power are expected to only be used for ten to fifteen minutes during extreme maneuvers. Still, the capability to move faster than comparative forces can offer significant advantages in frontline reconnaissance operations.

That's about 11 MP max. A 4/6 engine with supercharger and overdrive will get to 10MP. +1 MP for pavement and you've got 11MP or 118.8 kph.

The turret and rear compartment can be replaced with a quasi VLS launch system, packing in compact 240mm drone munitions. These would likely be powered by mixed composite MH ramjets active after initial boost, terrain following on a sub 100km trajectory as guided in by battalion level assets. Warhead limitations on the platform are likely to limit theoretical designs to a 20kg MHSH, equivalent to a ton of TNT and performing excellent anti-bunker work, if with limitations on anti-armor performance.

The best fit I think would be a laser guided Arrow IV.  You could house rule a laser guided Cruise Missile/50 but that'll probably be too heavy.

[Vehrec]

Oh, I forgot one detail.  Their IFVs need to be power-armor compatable with a squad of eight.   They don't have a general-issue suit yet, but they do have a space-issued suit, one that is 'dummy thick' from the extra armor around the marrow-containing bones to block radiation pulses from danger close nukes and PPCs hitting your ship irradiating you.

[CarcosanDawn]

Oh, I forgot one detail.  Their IFVs need to be power-armor compatable with a squad of eight.   They don't have a general-issue suit yet, but they do have a space-issued suit, one that is 'dummy thick' from the extra armor around the marrow-containing bones to block radiation pulses from danger close nukes and PPCs hitting your ship irradiating you.

Make it an omni and they can ride on the outside; for normal vehicles, they can ride on the inside! No special rules or exceptions needed.

Sounds like "universe fluff" aside, you can make such vehicles in BT.

EDIT:
Also, on the drone thing, you can make it a suicide drone. Suicide drones already exist in BT (see the Buffalo Drone tank) and making it a unit rather than a munition allows the opponent to interact with it the way they would with drones "in-universe" (typically having a greater chance to shoot it down relative to a faster-moving munition).

[RifleMech]

Oh, I forgot one detail.  Their IFVs need to be power-armor compatable with a squad of eight.   They don't have a general-issue suit yet, but they do have a space-issued suit, one that is 'dummy thick' from the extra armor around the marrow-containing bones to block radiation pulses from danger close nukes and PPCs hitting your ship irradiating you.

That's easy to do. IDK how heavy the suits would be but if you go with 2 tons each, that ends up being the same weight as the IS Arrow IV and a ton of ammo. It'd make the switch between variants easier.