What new technology for 3150

[StCptMara]

Marwynn...I think that the current crop of Clan Tech is pretty much the extent of how the Star league tech
can be further refined. We will have to see stuff like the Plasma Cannon, Heavy Lasers, and ATMs to
see new developments in Clan Tech. That said: I fully expect if/when the Homeworld Clans invade,
we will see iATMs, Electro armoured Protomechs with Fussilade launchers. Depending on how far they
are willing to go to fight the Inner Sphere, we might even see Nova CEWS in use...

But, I do not think we are going to see ER PPCs with longer range and more damage/accuracy...I really
think those are at their limit...

[Diplominator]

I'm okay with the IS getting Clan tech (heck, they've already started) as long as Clan-designed units remain superior. For instance, while the IS is making its version of the Hellbringer and just being happy it works, the Clans can make more stuff akin to the Hellstar, units that make the most of scarce resources. From what we've seen so far, that appears to be the case (with exceptions). The new Falcon designs in particular intrigue me. Partial wings and talons can lead to some really cruel designs. The Gyrfalcon might use pitiful little ACs, but if it ends up moving 5/8/7 and kicking like an 85-tonner, I'll be completely okay with it. If the Shrike ends up with a pair of UAC-5s as its main weapons, I'll understand if it goes 4/6/5 and can tear legs off with a single kick. And if the Clans figure out TSM...that way lies madness. The TSM Berserker is only tolerable because you can usually stay away until you hurt it badly enough. If the Clans start making things that hurt that bad (and, really, talons without TSM are pretty close) while being quick and tough to hit, then the whole "don't let Clantech stay at range" strategy will need some reevaluation.

The new missile technologies will also probably make a difference. While Ben has dashed my hopes of seeing iATMs in the IS (even though it could totally make sense grumble bitch whine moan complain), Artemis V and Streak LRMs both open some pretty ferocious possibilities. Streak LRMs are very dense, so they're pretty easy to stick on bigger crit-packed Clan designs, SLRM-15s in particular. As good as Clan LRMs are, SLRMs are vastly more crit- and heat-efficient and they play with other stuff much more nicely. Artemis V, on the other hand, is great for smaller stuff with crits to spare. It's only half a ton more than Artemis IV but so incredibly better that I can't imagine using LRMs without it. More accurate, and EVEN MORE cluster bonus. Good deal. While the Mad Cat III needs more armor and ammo, it could probably credibly compete with a Longbow in ranged fire support.

As for the newer Clan lasers...less astounding, but still good news for their continued superiority. Improved Heavy Lasers still do preposterous amounts of damage by IS standards, and even the old ones do okay. The Morrigan and its variant are some of the scariest things I've played against recently, and there's always the Solitaire. Firepower on small things is not an arena the IS will be able to touch the Clans in any time soon.  ER Pulse lasers are...usable. Sometimes. The new Mad Cat II uses them badly, since normal lasers and a TC would be entirely better (losing the full pulse bonus makes them a lot less useful). Still, coupled with some low-heat weapons (and maybe a TC so normal ER lasers aren't just better) they could be a potent new toy.

Throw in endo-composite IS, Ferro-lamellar armor, and adoption of the new IS gyro types, and I don't see the Clans losing their tech edge for a very long time if their new designs are built well.

[Previn]

By 3050, the I.S- on it's own, was able to reproduce most of the lost Battlemech technologies of the Star League that they had lost to the succession wars. (XL Engines, Ferro-Fibrous armour, double heatsinks, ER Large Lasers, LB-X 10s, UAC 5s, etc.)

Unless the timeline was revised in the years between when FASA went under and Catalyst took over, XL engines, Ferro armor, Double heat Sinks, ER-Large Lasers, LB-10-X and Ultra AC 5s all were reintroduced not by IS reproducing them on it's own... but from data in the Helm Core.

Even if we did accept that the IS was able to reproduce those techs without the Helm Core, that's again just reinforcing my point that given the time involved there is absolutely no reason for IS equipment to lage so far behind.

By 3067 we've got technologies that arguably surpass their Clan counterparts (MMLs and Plasma Rifles) as well as gear the Star League never even dreamed of- C3i, Heavy PPCs, Light PPCs, etc.

MMLs are not better than clan grade LRMs except in the most contrived of examples. Plasma rifles it's a toss up depending on what it's being used for. Heavy PPCs are just very inferior clan ER-PPCs... which makes no sense given the time involved, the IS's ability to produce clan ER-PPCs and the avalability of actual models to study. Light PPCs are nice for the IS to replace the derpy ACs, but basically inferior to clan ER-Medium Lasers.

It's not just knowledge.  You don't take a Clan ER PPC, open it up and say 'Gee, well that's how it's done...wow, we're stupid'.

Execpt clearly, yeah you do, as the IS has done it with the vast majority of clan tech (reference IS omnis, IS battle armor, the IS replicating Clan tech from salvage around 3053, IS techs mounting and repairing clan equipment on IS machines...).

Every time you point to the IS making big leaps in tech (omnis in less than 10 years, C3, able to produce clan tech in less than 10 years), it just reinforces my point that it makes absolutely no sense for the IS to have lagged so far behind for so long, even if you entirely toss out the succession wars and count only from 3037.

[StCptMara]

Every time you point to the IS making big leaps in tech (omnis in less than 10 years, C3, able to produce clan tech in less than 10 years), it just reinforces my point that it makes absolutely no sense for the IS to have lagged so far behind for so long, even if you entirely toss out the succession wars and count only from 3037.

Remember that all the Inner Sphere advancements from the start of the Clan Invasion, that duplicated Clan Tech in some way, shape, or
form, had two things going for them that the Clans did not have:
1) Working examples to try and figure things out from.
2) A sense of urgency to try and bring themselves up as fast as possible to face these invaders on somewhat comparable footing, at least.

I would actually go so far as to say that the only things that were truly new concepts for the Inner Sphere were the Plasma Rifle
and Magnetic Clamps. RACs are just up-scaling a machinegun to AC size, using the developments in trying to lighten their ACs
to the CLan levels, Heavy and Light PPCs/Gauss are just bigger/lighter guns, and MMLs are just figuring out a different method of
feeding ammo in(to try and duplicate the Clan ATMs).

[Sid]

Unless the timeline was revised in the years between when FASA went under and Catalyst took over, XL engines, Ferro armor, Double heat Sinks, ER-Large Lasers, LB-10-X and Ultra AC 5s all were reintroduced not by IS reproducing them on it's own... but from data in the Helm Core.

I never said they weren't.  They needed to ramp up the infrastructure, test it, and move on from the prototypes.  Check the Historical for 3039, where prototypes of those technologies exist, and are used with defects.  (Double Heatsinks don't fit into the engine, ER Large laser produces extra heat, the UAC5 jams easier etc.)

Within a few years those flaws had been fixed, they were being produced for far cheaper and distributed in far greater numbers.

MMLs are not better than clan grade LRMs except in the most contrived of examples. Plasma rifles it's a toss up depending on what it's being used for. Heavy PPCs are just very inferior clan ER-PPCs... which makes no sense given the time involved, the IS's ability to produce clan ER-PPCs and the avalability of actual models to study. Light PPCs are nice for the IS to replace the derpy ACs, but basically inferior to clan ER-Medium Lasers.

MMLs aren't comparable to LRMs.  The I.S doesn't sit down with a pair of dice and say 'Okay, our MMLs don't do as much damage per ton as the Clans.  Back to the drawing board'.

They're meant to be versatile, and are far better at that than the Clans' attempts (See ATMs)

Execpt clearly, yeah you do, as the IS has done it with the vast majority of clan tech (reference IS omnis, IS battle armor, the IS replicating Clan tech from salvage around 3053, IS techs mounting and repairing clan equipment on IS machines...).

If that was true, I.S BA would have Harjel (or equivalent) in their armour.  They wouldn't have to eject their spent missle tubes before being able to jump.

They opened them up, got some ideas, and were able to come up with similar designs that aren't quite as effective.

As I said earlier, they can replicate Clan technology according to Maxtech.  They have to do that by hand however.  It's far too complicated and expensive to do it under mass production.  In the laboratory, a scientist could replicate the Clan UAC20.  On a factory line?  Not so much.  They were able, however, to gain enough insight to be able to create their own versions.

 

Every time you point to the IS making big leaps in tech (omnis in less than 10 years, C3, able to produce clan tech in less than 10 years), it just reinforces my point that it makes absolutely no sense for the IS to have lagged so far behind for so long, even if you entirely toss out the succession wars and count only from 3037.

And you have yet to make any point as to why.  I know the difference between a CAT5E cable and a CAT7A cable.  That doesn't mean I can grab a CAT5 and turn it into a CAT7, even though they both are just made up of copper and plastic.

[Khymerion]

Yeah...  but the by hand only really made sense honestly for the 3050s.   By the 60s, the process should have been worked out, key equipment needed isolated and developed.   Yes, the Jihad hit and that just kicked everyone's tables over... both clanners and IS alike...  except for clan munchy bear who seemed was smart to move ahead of time to bring their toys with.   The rest of the clanners didn't get to have that time to maintain their magic super advantage...  especially in light the home lands being shut down and burning the bridge right after.

If anything, the IS clans (Minus clan broken bear) should be downgraded in tech rather than kept at their lofty top dog standard... or not very far head of their much larger (even post Republic formation) IS cousins who should, by 3150, have more than just got the clan tech mastered but produced in amounts far greater than the clanners could ever dream of, even in the heights of their 'golden' century.

Really, the 80's and 90's should have seen enough clan techs who had defected due to disenfranchisement or been captured, enough hardware, and enough technical material to fall into IS hands to reproduce nearly anything currently in service.  After all, if the Helm core was able to pretty much hand the IS the Star League era on a silver platter...  all that should pretty much have been given over when the kitties joined the dragon and that information would have leaked out to everyone within time (battletech really is terrible about keeping secrets within one state for any appreciable amount of time, some ice cubes have lasted longer in furnaces than a secret in the sphere).

In essence, the clanner/IS tech bases should go right out the window for a new standard, otherwise it will soon be broken up as the Homeworld Clans (They are terrible people who won't play with other people's toys and won't share) / Frontline IS (the old clan/top line IS toys/newly developed hybrid stuff) / Second Line IS (the old IS toys/Succession War stuff, those leftover medium lasers we find in someone's basement next to a crate of old Mosin Nagants) / Archaic (Hey look another crate of Mosin Nagants, where do these keep turning up at?)

[Cyttorak]

I don't see why there would be any tech-progression at all:

After the 1st SW, the IS still had HPG communications and the governments were strong and organized...and the tech *still* regressed!
By the DA, governments are weaker (if they haven't imploded like the FWL) and there's the HPG blackout. Why would tech progress under those circumstances? It ought to be a replay of the 1st SW, where the most common tech is the easiest to produce...in other words, a return to 3025-era tech.

[Dread Moores]

It ought to be a replay of the 1st SW, where the most common tech is the easiest to produce...in other words, a return to 3025-era tech.

Except that's not the most common tech by that point. The most common tech by that point in time would be the Tournament legal tech. Go take a look through most of the Field Reports sometime. Introductory tech is in the minority. A lot of the Introductory tech variants aren't even in production prior to the Jihad.

[stoicfaux]

I don't know, historically purges have had pretty long lasting negative effects. I can see a reasonable au where the purge of the scientists results in the clan homeworlds sinking back to 3025 levels and eventually getting invaded by the IS clans.

It's more than just a purge of scientists.  The homeworlds have also purged the tainted clans, which pegs the homeworlders as being reactionary.  This could mean that the homeworld clans adopt the pre-IS invasion clan standards (i.e., rigid adherence to zell) and tactics (fight as warriors, not soldiers.)  It would require an insane technological advantage to make up for the fact that the IS and IS Clans have adapted to the honor (and hide)-bound tactics and strategies of the past and would defeat a second 3050 style clan invasion.

I would be more interested in the social, strategic, tactical and logistical "technology" that the untainted homeworld clans would need to develop for a successful second IS invasion.

[rlbell]

The big problem with the Clan/IS tech divide is that the tyranny of numbers says that for every single brilliant, one-in-a-million level clan scientist, an Edison, there are enough comparably bright individuals in the inner sphere to populate Menlo Park.  Once the I.S. stops systematically blowing up research institutes, IS technology should not only catch up to the Clans, it should actually surpass it.  Compared to the Clans, the IS has unlimited resources, so it can fund all plausible lines of research, not just the one deemed most likely to succeed.  For every team studying a working example, there can be several teams working with blank sheets of paper and the knowledge that it can be done. 

Claims that Kerensky took all of the best minds with him on the Exodus do not hold water.  First and foremeost, he had to establish viable colonies with no additional outside support.  As esoteric research does nothing to support colonization, while the colonization is in progress, researchers must be pulling their weight in setting up and supporting the colony and only conduct research in their spare time.  He could have taken some of the best minds, but would have to leave the vast majority behind.  He will take the best researchers he can find, but the bulk of the exodus is made up of various technicians and engineers.

[Previn]

They needed to ramp up the infrastructure, test it, and move on from the prototypes.

Which the IS was able to do in less than 10 years for every peice of tech you listed. The helm core was discovered in 2028, by 3037 the DC had working units witht he tech and were mass producing it. By 3050 all of that tech and more was avalable to all the houses.

There is no logic that supports the clans, which have a fraction of the IS numbers getting the advanced lasers and missiles with in 70 years at the most, despite having to compeltely rebuild from dirt once they found the Pentagon worlds, and then having to do so again with second exodus, and yet the IS, with greater resources by far, and more time, and with working examples of the tech, and actual plans on how to make it... can't?

That's flat out does not work.

MMLs aren't comparable to LRMs.

They aren't, because the clan LRMs are better in almost every conceivable way.

A clan LRM 20 has better ranges, and no minimum range than an MML 9 for it's long range munitions, as well as being lighter and more compact. it can use all the LRM munitions that the MML can, and does more damage even at short ranges than the MML 9 does using SRM ammo, and hits more easily than an MML 9 using SRM ammo at any range greater than 3 hexes, and the MML requires at least 2 tons of ammo to get that flexability.

The MML can... use inferno rounds and tandam charge rounds?

You can argue that "it's not about the dice" but that rings hallow when you actually examine the problem from the persective fo someone in the universe: Yes the clan LRM 20 only does 1 point damage at short range than the MML 9 (which may be unquantifibale in universe), but it's hitting roughly 40% more often, and measurably takes up less weight and space and at long range it's doing more than 200% of the damage than the MML 9.

And you have yet to make any point as to why.  I know the difference between a CAT5E cable and a CAT7A cable.  That doesn't mean I can grab a CAT5 and turn it into a CAT7, even though they both are just made up of copper and plastic.

Because that's entirely the wrong analogy.

I make CAT5e cables and have the entire North American content behind me. You have cuba, but figure out how to make CAT7a in less than 70 years. Now, I get a hold of some of your CAT7e.

Explain why it now takes me 100 years, with examples, and plans, and research and production abilities that dwarf yours that I still can't produce CAT7a?

- IS has had 30 MORE years to copy the tech than the clans had to just come up with the tech
- The IS has thousands of times more resources in both personal and materials than then clans did
- The IS didn't have to rebuild every city from dirt, and has had research and production facilitys for far longer and in greater numbers
- The IS has samples of the technology, and plans to produce it
- IS factories have been retooled to produce clan spec equipment already
- The IS has shown that it can reproduce tech in less than a decade from plans and put it into full production, and has shown this multiple times

So, given that the IS has had every concievable advantage over the clans in getting to clan tech missiles and/or lasers, why hasn't it?

[Nanaki]

One of the reasons for the Clan/IS divide is to differentiate between the two. If the Inner Sphere is able to convert everything to Clantech, why have Inner Sphere tech at all? The whole idea behind Clantech is to have the Clans be a different force that relies on fewer numbers but more advanced tech, and to give Clantech to the Inner Sphere you pretty much render the Clans into Inner Sphere minor powers.

This is like someone arguing that in Starcraft that the Terrans should be reverse engineering Protoss technology and putting it to use. It completely ignores the -gameplay- reasons why differences between the Terrans and Protoss exist. Overall, All this realism discussion is kinda pointless considering that overall, Battletech is already a very unrealistic universe. See: FASAnomics, K/F Drives, HPGs, the Fortress magic shield, the unrealistic fusion reactors, and the hundred other things where detailed discussion would result in millions of dead catgirls.

[verybad]

It's more than just a purge of scientists.  The homeworlds have also purged the tainted clans, which pegs the homeworlders as being reactionary.  This could mean that the homeworld clans adopt the pre-IS invasion clan standards (i.e., rigid adherence to zell) and tactics (fight as warriors, not soldiers.)  It would require an insane technological advantage to make up for the fact that the IS and IS Clans have adapted to the honor (and hide)-bound tactics and strategies of the past and would defeat a second 3050 style clan invasion.

I would be more interested in the social, strategic, tactical and logistical "technology" that the untainted homeworld clans would need to develop for a successful second IS invasion.

Adders didn't use zeil when attacking tainted clans or the society. Essentially, they turned their Warden attitude towards protecting the Clans from the IS "taint" rather than the IS from themselves (or other Clans). They didn't cut out their brains. The Adder Khan is very reasonable and intelligent, very far from reactinary. Since he's the defacto ilKhan, that influences all the Homeworld Clans very strongly.

If you're getting this impression from reading the WoR, then you may want to go back and reread it. The Clans may have a different approach to warfare, but they're not blithering fools. They can addapt, and they DID adapt during the WoR, the ones that didn't are dead.

I think the kind of enormous steps people seem to be suggesting for technology by 3150 are rather ridiculous. It took the entirety of the Star League centuries to develop the helm technologies. The Clans brought those technologies another step up over centuries.

The Inner Sphere lacks the high end "parts" factories to be able to reproduce clan tech in mass production, and I'm pretty certain they'll still lack those factories in 3150. You want to know why?

Because TPTB aren't going to get rid of everything that makes the clans interesting, it woudl be a stupid move on their part, getting rid of the tech gap. All of a sudden the clans are what? Slightly better trained mechwarriors, and that's it? BOOOOOOOORRRRIIINNNGGGGG! It's like Tolkien describing Orcs as "meanies"

The gap HAS to remain between Clan and IS technology, otherwise they're essentially cutting off one of their own feet. Clan fans would hate it, and it would reduce the diversity in cultures and factions in the game, while serving utterly no good story line.

While this may be metagaming, it's still a huge part of the decision making process. Combining IS and Clan tech just doesn't help anyone.

[Marwynn]

The difference is that while Terrans are trying to reverse-enginer Protoss technology it is fundamentally different from Terran tech.

Now, you're right. The distinction exists to create a distinction. But it's 3150. A full century after the Clan invasion, with trade and potentially stolen plans from Clan factories in the Inner Sphere.

The distinction between Clan and IS now isn't technological, it's philosophical. It's the meat, not the 'Mech that makes the Clans the warriors they are. In an even battlefield with Clan tech on both sides it should come down to skills and tactics, which the Clanners are supposed to be superior in.

I'm all for the divide between IS and Clan tech when it was still fairly new, but the Clans' presence in the Inner Sphere is bound to influence their technological base.

One of the reasons cited in MaxTech I think it was, was that the Clans' equipment used materials that weren't common (or commonly harvested) in the Inner Sphere. Just like with Warships, a whole industry had to be created from the ground up to gain those materials.

Even with the losses in the Jihad, the IS (for the most part) should have bounced back by 3150 and have more than enough resources to start making Clantech the standard.

I don't see why there would be any tech-progression at all:

After the 1st SW, the IS still had HPG communications and the governments were strong and organized...and the tech *still* regressed!
By the DA, governments are weaker (if they haven't imploded like the FWL) and there's the HPG blackout. Why would tech progress under those circumstances? It ought to be a replay of the 1st SW, where the most common tech is the easiest to produce...in other words, a return to 3025-era tech.

Umm what?

The 1SW had blackouts as well. The tech regression was due to the IS gleefully bombarding the crap out of research institutions and military production centres with a helpful hand from ComStar.

The Dark Age-era blackout may have stultified the Inner Sphere but for the last 50-60 years the Sphere had been progressing and researching and rebuilding. A few short years of silence is not going to make technology regress, especially since the relatively small scale of combat occurring.

There's no way 3025-era technology is going to become the standard in the 3100s. The industries are not broken or shattered, there are people around who are third or fourth generation students of a recovered Star League core.

[verybad]

Well, they'll have better lumber mech technologies. Better construction mech technologies...

The greatest driving thing for military technologies has historically been warfare. 65 years isn't that long a time in battletech years. Especially not for tech development. Especially not for military tech development if there havn't been any major wars.

I think there will be a few new toys, but not the fundamental upending some people seem to be expecting.

[Nanaki]

The distinction between Clan and IS now isn't technological, it's philosophical.

Except it doesnt effect the gameplay, which makes an entirely worthless difference at a gameplay point of view.

If we make Clantech the Inner Sphere standard, it would pretty much result in the Clans becoming little more than minor factions with wierd cultures, Inner Sphere tech itself would go the way of the old 3025 Level 1 tech, and pretty much it would reduce diversity in the universe.

The difference is that while Terrans are trying to reverse-enginer Protoss technology it is fundamentally different from Terran tech.

Funny how that explination works perfectly for the Terrans and the Protoss, but you seem to refuse to let it slide for Inner Sphere and Clan.

[Previn]

I think the kind of enormous steps people seem to be suggesting for technology by 3150 are rather ridiculous. It took the entirety of the Star League centuries to develop the helm technologies. The Clans brought those technologies another step up over centuries.

Except this isn't true, as I've already shown. The clans hit their tech 'peak' for lasers and missiles in 2854 as those components were used on the Coyotl mech as a production model. Since the exodus happened in 2784, that means the clans developed their advanced lasers and missiles in 70 years or less, and then stagnated on it until the present day.

There wasn't even 1 century of development to get from IS level lasers and missiles to clan level in full production for the exodus fleet. It makes no logical sense that the IS cannot have done the same thing give the plans, a longer time (just counting from 3037), more raw materials, man/brain power and a far larger industrial base.

The Inner Sphere lacks the high end "parts" factories to be able to reproduce clan tech in mass production, and I'm pretty certain they'll still lack those factories in 3150. You want to know why?

Because TPTB aren't going to get rid of everything that makes the clans interesting, it woudl be a stupid move on their part, getting rid of the tech gap. All of a sudden the clans are what? Slightly better trained mechwarriors, and that's it? BOOOOOOOORRRRIIINNNGGGGG!

The IS doesn't lack parts. Factories have been retooled to produce clan spec equipment, and new factories capable of producing clan spec equipment have been built in the IS. Given the raw materials and industrial force available to any house as opposed to the clans, let alone the entire IS, that makes even less sense.

In the 3050s inability to produce clan spec equipment might have been an argument. 100 years later, it most certifiably is not.

The gap HAS to remain between Clan and IS technology, otherwise they're essentially cutting off one of their own feet. Clan fans would hate it, and it would reduce the diversity in cultures and factions in the game, while serving utterly no good story line.

While this may be metagaming, it's still a huge part of the decision making process. Combining IS and Clan tech just doesn't help anyone.

- The universe/story makes more sense.
- BV becomes easier to balance, combats between forces become more balanced.
- No old stories are impossibly and new ones emerge.
- New technologies can be created rather than continuously making 'slightly different but basically worse' stuff.
- You can see even more diversity in designs with mixed tech "Yeah it has a clan ER-Large, but we had to go with regular IS mediums to save costs and heat."

I'm not seeing any problems besides ideological complaints.

[Previn]

Funny how that explination works perfectly for the Terrans and the Protoss, but you seem to refuse to let it slide for Inner Sphere and Clan.

Terrian and Protoss tech works on fundamentally different technological principles (i.e. good old terrain mechanical vs wtf crystal psychic machine stuff). Clan and IS are fundamentally the same technology.

[Marwynn]

Because the Protoss rely on psionics in their technology. The Clans based their improvements on well-known (by 3050) Star League tech.

It's not the same at all. It's like the modern US going back to the M4 Sherman, rediscovering how to make the M1 Abrams, then fighting a splinter US faction that never forgot how to make the M1 and is now fielding an M3 Abrams III. They capture a few, realize the refinements made are within their reach (it's not powered by their minds or anything like the Protoss.)

The tech makes sense for the Inner Sphere, it's just difficult to build.

The Terrans don't even know where to start with Protoss tech. The best they've been able to do is analyze some crystals and shield tech. And they only had what, 3 years?


Yes, it does affect gameplay. The Clanners' skills should be reflected when you're playing.

If we make Clantech the Inner Sphere standard, it would pretty much result in the Clans becoming little more than minor factions with wierd cultures, Inner Sphere tech itself would go the way of the old 3025 Level 1 tech, and pretty much it would reduce diversity in the universe.

They are minor factions with weird cultures. Weird, warrior-like cultures that produce pound-for-pound the meanest MechWarriors in the Inner Sphere.

It's not like the gap hasn't already been closed. Despite the ton-for-ton efficiency of Clantech in the Jihad era, the Inner Sphere has caught up in variety and other technologies. On the tabletop, BV2 balanced games often place Clan players in something of a disadvantage if the IS player gets to play with all the new toys.

Note though, I'm talking about the Inner Sphere Clans. The Homeworld Clans (if any) are probably able to make a new kind of Clan tech. Or not.

[verybad]

The IS doesn't lack parts. Factories have been retooled to produce clan spec equipment, and new factories capable of producing clan spec equipment have been built in the IS. Given the raw materials and industrial force available to any house as opposed to the clans, let alone the entire IS, that makes even less sense.

Where in the world did you get the impression that IS factories have been retooled to produce clan spec technology? Ohh I know, from factories the CLANS have retooled. That's rather disingenuous don't you think?

In the 3050s inability to produce clan spec equipment might have been an argument. 100 years later, it most certifiably is not.

Considering the lack of warfare in the intervening time, I think you're going by what you wish for more than what is likely.

- The universe/story makes more sense.
- BV becomes easier to balance, combats between forces become more balanced.
- No old stories are impossibly and new ones emerge.
- New technologies can be created rather than continuously making 'slightly different but basically worse' stuff.
- You can see even more diversity in designs with mixed tech "Yeah it has a clan ER-Large, but we had to go with regular IS mediums to save costs and heat."

I'm not seeing any problems besides ideological complaints.

The problem is that the clans are a popular group of factions in the game. Removing the toys that help make them popular wouldn't be a good business move. It gets rid of any reason to have factions like the Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes.

I'm sure there are IS factions or units using a large amount of clan tech, but I don't think we'll be seeing IS factions other than clans reproducing clan tech in large quantities.

There's been no incentive to do so, considering the small tiny size of armies, it's simply cheaper to buy that tech from a Sea Fox merchant than to build a trillion c-bill factory to make...4 mechs a year.

So it would be a bad business move on the part of Catalyst. Some people enjoy using the smaller units, but higher tech of clans. Just having a different culture won't cut it.
It's would be a foolish move to retool factories at an enormous cost when you can simply buy the good stuff from a Sea Fox factor. Mechs are relatively cheap compared to factories.
The IS have been embroiled in a peaceful era. There has been very little incentive to get super high tech. The Republic may have taken over some WoB technologies, but when you're involved in peace, the highend war technologies don't spit out quite as fast.

Clan tech is like getting a magic weapon in a video game. They're simply better. Getting rid of the difference would be bad for the game. People worrying about balancing the game better by getting rid of the different technology levels simply aren't enjoying it in the first place.

[Fear Factory]

Well, all the Tech in TM makes sense seeing how factions were throwing everything they could at the Word of Blake.

For the Dark Age I want to see a lot of technology going extinct.  When everything kicks back in, the most essential/easy to find technology (based on fluff, NOT game performance) getting upgraded or refined (this can be positive or negative).

[Devens]

Clan tech is like getting a magic weapon in a video game. They're simply better. Getting rid of the difference would be bad for the game. People worrying about balancing the game better by getting rid of the different technology levels simply aren't enjoying it in the first place.

Actualy, getting rid of the tech level diffrence would be good for the game.  Realistically the IS should have Clan Tech by now in full production.  The clans should have some advancement also, but not anywhere near as fast as the IS advancement is since the Clans would need to start from scratch with no higher tech examples to work from.   

[Nanaki]

Actualy, getting rid of the tech level diffrence would be good for the game.   

Care to explain why? Realism is not going to cut it, Battletech is not a realistic universe by any stretch of the imagination, so please stop using it in an argument.

[Previn]

Where in the world did you get the impression that IS factories have been retooled to produce clan spec technology? Ohh I know, from factories the CLANS have retooled. That's rather disingenuous don't you think?
Considering the lack of warfare in the intervening time, I think you're going by what you wish for more than what is likely.

You're referring to the Falcon and Ghost Bear retoolings. One the IS side Irain Battlemechs Unlimited was able to produce clan -grade lasers through a mix of contracts and "some spare technical staff." TharHes Industries of Tharkad produce Clan-spec LRM 5s, though in limited numbers, the Defiance Manufacturing Annex can produce Ultra ACs to clan specifications. Defiance Industries produces XL engines to clan standards. As examples. Those are all roughly around 3075. There are still issues with cost and speed of manufacturing, but they've still got 75 years work it out, and it only took the clans 70 years to get there despite being part of the EXODUS with no industrial base, no where near the man power and no examples or plans for it.

The problem is that the clans are a popular group of factions in the game. Removing the toys that help make them popular wouldn't be a good business move. It gets rid of any reason to have factions like the Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes.

There are 3025 purists, removing the toys isn't going to prevent anyone but a small fanatical section from playing, and at worse they'll just stick to the time era they like, like lots of players and groups already do. This also doesn't do anything to remove the factions, it means that you get clan off their collective butts and have them start making new tech to keep ahead of the IS instead of sitting on the same lasers from 200 years ago. Oh, look new toys for everyone....

I'm sure there are IS factions or units using a large amount of clan tech, but I don't think we'll be seeing IS factions other than clans reproducing clan tech in large quantities.

There's been no incentive to do so, considering the small tiny size of armies, it's simply cheaper to buy that tech from a Sea Fox merchant than to build a trillion c-bill factory to make...4 mechs a year.

Look, XL engine tech was rediscovered by the IS in 3035 by the Lyrans. By 3055, 20 years later, every house had XL tech, and every house had rank and file production mechs with XL engines. Every argument that you would try to level about cost, or difficult, time, retooling or need of materials is pretty much defeated by that example.

Even if we accept that it will take the IS just as long as it took the clans, despite the number of advantages they have at this point compared to the clans, they should have clan level tech in standard production before 3150, if they started from scratch in 3080.

So it would be a bad business move on the part of Catalyst. Some people enjoy using the smaller units, but higher tech of clans. Just having a different culture won't cut it.
It's would be a foolish move to retool factories at an enormous cost when you can simply buy the good stuff from a Sea Fox factor. Mechs are relatively cheap compared to factories.
The IS have been embroiled in a peaceful era. There has been very little incentive to get super high tech. The Republic may have taken over some WoB technologies, but when you're involved in peace, the highend war technologies don't spit out quite as fast.

We're not talking about creating new techs from scratch, we're talking about catching up to existing tech that's all over the place. Better fusion engines, improved lasers, better cooling technologies all have massive applications on the civilian side. No house is going to stop trying to tool up to produce weapons that are more than twice as effective as what they have now either. The IS isn't ever at peace, it's a coldwar at best.

[Previn]

Care to explain why? Realism is not going to cut it, Battletech is not a realistic universe by any stretch of the imagination, so please stop using it in an argument.

- BV becomes more balanced, with fewer points of putting one side or the other at a disadvantage.
- More designs open up when you're able to freely mix clan and IS tech, both from a rules and story (i.e. campaign) perspective.
- Newer equipment can be made for the clans to show them moving forward in tech, and to keep the differentiated from the IS.
- We can stop making/using terribly bad weapons like IS Pulse medium lasers and AC/5s which should probably lower the BV of your machines.

As for realism, BT is not perfect, but it's pretty much better than the vast majority of herp durp sci-fi stuff. In fact BT looks like a science text book when you compare it to mechaton z or Warhammer 40k. Plus it's not that it has to be 100% realistic and perfect, it's that not having this happen is a glaring and blaten continuity issue that needs to be explained.

I'm sorry if something making sense isn't an aceptable answer, but yeah, it makes sense.

[Nanaki]

- BV becomes more balanced, with fewer points of putting one side or the other at a disadvantage.

Except doing that pretty much balances it by having everyone use the same equipment. Thats not really balance.

- More designs open up when you're able to freely mix clan and IS tech, both from a rules and story (i.e. campaign) perspective.

Why mix tech when you can just make Clan versions of Inner sphere equipment and not even bother?

- Newer equipment can be made for the clans to show them moving forward in tech, and to keep the differentiated from the IS.

This pretty much puts us back to square one with the Clantech/ISTech divide, except it will be Clantech/Clantech MK2... while rendering Inner Sphere level 2 in the same spot as Inner Sphere level 1, completely worthless and used only by completely obsolete units.

[Atlas3060]

Except that's not the most common tech by that point. The most common tech by that point in time would be the Tournament legal tech. Go take a look through most of the Field Reports sometime. Introductory tech is in the minority. A lot of the Introductory tech variants aren't even in production prior to the Jihad.

Exactly, when it hits 3150 then 3050 will be the new 3025.  ;)
Old Stormcrows will have stormcrow lines on them and be called classics while Hunchbacks will be seen on whatever passes for a History Antique show in the Inner Sphere.

[Dread Moores]

Old Stormcrows will have stormcrow lines on them and be called classics while Hunchbacks will be seen on whatever passes for a History Antique show in the Inner Sphere.

Except there's that new Hunchback being produced by the Republic. ;)

[Fear Factory]

What do you guys honestly think of faction-specific technology?

[willydstyle]

Personally, one of BT's draws for me is the lack of distinct faction-specific technology. If the Clans and IS technology levels merged, I'd be perfectly fine with it, speaking as both a clan and IS player.