Author Topic: What new technology for 3150  (Read 81140 times)

Fear Factory

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #240 on: 19 August 2011, 14:30:16 »
I love specific faction tech. It adds more character to each of them, but like he said it can get pretty silly(talons  #P). Its just what make it great, the idea that each faction is trying to gain the upperhand with better tech. And with that, the other factions trying to obtain that technology, slowly distributing it.

[qoute]and to give Clantech to the Inner Sphere you pretty much render the Clans into Inner Sphere minor powers.


PLEASE GOD YES! OH I WOULD REJOYCE SEEING THIS! Not only would this be a great ironic twist in BT history, but i would finally have the last laugh at all those munchkins...

Honestly I'm much more comfortable with a considerable amount of Clan Technology going extinct.

Things like their double heat sinks, endo steel, ferro fibrous, electronics, are OK.  However, seeing the weapons get on the same level as the Inner Sphere would be interesting to see.  Something like them getting bumped down to the star league/klondike tech level and refining it from there.  Things like ATM's, HAG's, their lighter and more powerful weapons, all going down as a result of the Wars of Reaving/leaving the homeworlds.

Maybe then they can dive into things like MML's, some kind of special class of laser weapons between pulse and er, and possibly some kind of multi-function autocannon (like an ultra autocannon, which weighs about the same as standard autocannons, but it can act like an Ultra and LB-X cannon but have a risk of "jamming" instead of the stupid circut blowing out) all within the range levels of the Inner Sphere so it's not broken.  Things like ProtoMechs can stay.  Shoot, it would be neat to see Enhanced Imaging become standard tech, and I would welcome that with open arms.  It's unique.

But hey this is the kind of stuff I would enjoy.
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Nanaki

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #241 on: 19 August 2011, 14:49:42 »
What it seems to be said by so many other people far more eloquently is that the Clans don't make sense from a consistent view within the universe itself.

Care to explain how the Clans violated the internal consistancy of battletech? I read the rest of your post and all I saw were strawmen and complaints about the Jihad/Wars of Reaving that have absolutly nothing to do with the Clans as they were introduced.
« Last Edit: 19 August 2011, 14:52:55 by Nanaki »

Fear Factory

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #242 on: 19 August 2011, 16:03:56 »
There are people out there who don't like the Clans but I actually find most of them interesting.  Klondike really enforced this.
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Chris24601

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #243 on: 19 August 2011, 16:39:37 »
You know what?  You're right.  'so many other people' don't like the Clans, let's just wipe everything since the Clans came out.  Let's make Battletech make sense again.  Let's go back to just before the Clans were introduced- good ol' 1989, let's wipe out the past 24 years of Battletech fluff.  Afterall, we had a whole ~3 years of fantastic development consistency, and it's only the next quarter of a century of development that doesn't make sense at all.
OR... we can go forward and accomplish the same thing by accepting that the Clans as they existed in 3050 at the start of their glorious invasion were not a sustainable force in history any more than the mighty Japanese Navy that swept across most of the Pacific in 1941 was. Indeed, the association is quite apt and deliberate on my part.

Like the Clans, the IJN had the concept of "decisive battle" along with a warrior code. During the lead-up to WWII the Japanese devoted considerable resources into modernizing their navy (nearly 32% of their annual budget). They were the first nation to launch a purpose designed aircraft carrier (at a time when the Battleship was considered the king of the seas). They were the first navy to mount 14 inch and 16 inch guns on a Battleship and the only navy to ever mount 18 inch guns. They launched the first destroyer with dual-5 inch guns capable of anti-aircraft fire. They had the best torpedo in the world until after the end of WWII. The carrier launched Zero fighter had better range and performance than any rival US warplane and their pilots had more experience in the air. In the build-up to Pearl Harbor the Japanese matched (in 1940) and then exceeded (in 1941) the United States naval production.

After the intended knockout blow of Pearl Harbor (and the British, Austrailian, and Dutch forces drained by the war in Europe) the Japanese swarmed through the region with no more than token resistance. The HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales were sunk by a Japanese attack off Malaya on December 10. Thailand surrendered within 24 hours of the Japanese invasion. Hong Kong fell on December 25. The US bases on Guam and Wake Island were lost. Japan went on to invade Burma, the Dutch East Indies, New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Manila, Kuala Lumpur, Rabaul, Malaya, Singapore, Bali and Timor. They started air raids against Australia and crushed the Allied forces in the battle of the Java Sea leading the surrender of Java and Sumatra. They drove the British Navy completely out of the Indian Ocean which prevented the Allies from being able to provide material support to the Chinese Nationalists. They conquered the Philippines and occupied the Aleutian Islands off the coast of Alaska.

Sound familiar? A seemingly unstoppable military force armed with advanced weapon systems carving out vast swathes of territory from the established empires?

And what happened to them is the same thing that happened to the Clans... their forces' needs taxed their population and resource base to the absolute limit as they pit themselves against another power which, while woefully unprepared for the threat initially, had a greater resource base than the rest of the world combined. Once the US got itself kicked out of its complacency the defeat of the Japanese Empire was inevitable.

The only chance the Japanese and the Clans ever had of winning was a decisive knockout blow that convinced the other side to just give up without a fight.

All the advanced technology in the world just can NOT make up for the disparity in resources. It didn't matter that the Germans actually fielded the world's first JET FIGHTER that outperformed Allied warplanes in every single way because the Allies could afford to lose a dozen planes to shoot down one of the jets because they could build two dozen planes in the time it would take the Germans to build one replacement jet. The Clans simply didn't have the resources to knock out the Inner Sphere's production capacity and that is why they were always going to lose.

Someone upthread lamented that allowing the Inner Sphere to have Clantech would relegate the Clans to minor power status. I've got news for you. They already are, and indeed, always have been, minor powers that never really stood a chance against the combined forces of the Inner Sphere. Their tech and the power of surprise just temporarily gave them the ability to punch way above their weight class and the Annihilation of the Smoke Jaguars was their Hiroshima and Nagasaki (also apt as the Japanese surrendered on bluff that we had an arsenal of nukes waiting in the wings when we'd literally shot our wad on those two... likewise forces at home were already conspiring to undermine the very alliance that made the Annihilation of the Smoke Jaguars possible in the first place).

Historically speaking, the high point of the Clans was 3050, after which their importance to the Inner Sphere waned signicantly. And there's nothing WRONG with that either. People still break out WWII miniatures to refight battles that were and that might have been regardless of the fact that we already know the ultimate outcome of that war. People still refight the Battle of Waterloo even though the era of British and French dominance has long since past.

Just because the Clans are minor powers doesn't make them any less interesting. If you want to play them in their heyday set your battles in the 3050's. If you want to play them where THEY are the underdog trying to hold onto their customs as the universe threatens to pass them by (I'm now imagining some sort of "Dances with Wolves" parallel with regards to the Clans) then 3150 would be the time to play.

Heck, some might even come to romanticize the Clan ways the same way we do the Samurai, the Knight, and/or the Native American warrior and want to emulate their ways (wasn't that even the whole point of Steel Wolves? Weren't they mostly Clan wannabes akin to SCA'ers turned post-apocalyptic survivalists?). Seeing just how the Clans adapt to life in the Inner Sphere across the span of several generations is frankly going to be half the fun... seeing which traditions they do their best to hold to and which they surrender to pragmatism across multiple generations of leadership. How do the first generation of Trueborn to have been born in the Inner Sphere handle leadership when it passes to them? How do their occupied Inner Sphere subjects adapt or change after nearly five generations of rule by the Clans? How much of the Clan way do they adopt? How much of their ways do their Clan occupiers adopt?

There's a LOT more interesting stuff going on in the Clan future that doesn't hinge a bit on their level of technological advancement relative to the rest of the Inner Sphere.

And that tech level IS going to even out a lot over the subsequent 80 years... especially when you've got the Japanese/Clan Sea Fox selling cheap microprocessors/ClanTech to anyone willing to buy it (and yes, I had to ride the Clans/Japanese Empire to the bitter end).

The Battletech Universe of 3150 is not going to be like that of 3050... and that's a GOOD thing.
« Last Edit: 19 August 2011, 16:41:31 by Chris24601 »

Khymerion

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #244 on: 19 August 2011, 17:23:20 »
Care to explain how the Clans violated the internal consistancy of battletech? I read the rest of your post and all I saw were strawmen and complaints about the Jihad/Wars of Reaving that have absolutly nothing to do with the Clans as they were introduced.

Nothing is wrong with them as they were introduced... well, except for the auto-broken nature of things early on.   They were the great galactic steam rollers who hit with a force of unmitigated strength.   They were unknowns... we didn't know if they were the vanguard of a massive imperium or what.

Then they were explained.  The tight web of now having to fit within the setting starts to form.   We soon find out that the invasion was the work of decades, if not centuries, of preparation.  Stockpiles of equipment and a very tiny industrial base compared to any of the major and some of the minor Inner Sphere powers.  It was believable that with the very frugal state of fighting within the clans, the predominance of dueling, that such a force over the course of two centuries could be amassed.

The invasion hits.  It is a perfect storm that if it had hit a few years later, MIGHT not have been so effective.  The IS is caught with it's pants down.  We know them as the might that they had.   The books continue and things slowly start to wear on this stockpile.  Tukayyaid kills a whole lot of this pre-war generation... leading to a new generation to come up.   More books arrive, more details.   We start to get an internally consistent view... things don't add up.  Suddenly, we are given the Brian Caches, the vast supplies of stockpiled goods... to help make up for the fact that the vaunted industrial base of the clans can't meet the ferocity of fighting or absorb actual loses from fighting an enemy that won't duel.

We have now established within setting an internally consistent way things are able to function but this is not a perpetual motion engine here.  Things get worse for the clans.  Operation Bulldog, fighting between the Falcons and the Wolves, infighting between Hell's Horses and about anyone they can get their hands on it seemed, the exodus of the Bears (which didn't go QUITE as well as they hoped), the flight of the Ravens to the IS (DEFINITELY didn't go as well as they had hoped), the Jihad, and the WoR and destruction a good deal of things that remove the Homeworlds from the equation of power within the Inner Sphere and putting a good deal of the IS based clans on their hind ends in less than desirable straights.

They are honestly not what I would call a 'super power' anymore...  their time has come and gone thanks to nearly 20 years of writing them into minor power status.  Perhaps if they were unified under a single banner, they might be... but it is almost laughable to assume such a thing will ever occur considering the way things have progressed.

To assume that the IS based clans are able to not only rebuild but somehow maintain their technological advantage within the realm of the universe is actually flying in the face of the facts that have already been established within setting.  This is also in the face of the Experimental books already having their tech being cracked (finally).  To keep them separate after another 70 years just to maintain some false differentiating state between the two powers that only made sense during the invasion era and was already starting to seriously waver as the setting moved into the Jihad would be flying against the face of what has already come before it within the universe.

It would be tossing out the progress being made in game just to allow players to feel special about themselves because they are playing the mega-vehicles and swear allegiance to clan (Insert an animal here) while for some reason, despite proof being out there that we may soon see the Star League era inefficient garbage slipping away for at least 'modern' (read here Clan tech) incarnations or just consigned to realm of second line units, is ludicrous.  It is actually downright pandering to a certain subsect who want to feel extra special because they want to play trueborn pilots who are all masters at warfare and have mega-warmachines that allow them to scythe through their uneducated enemies like a hot knife through butter.  That worked twenty years ago but time moves forward, supported by the fluff in setting.


TL:DR - Clan/IS separation was okay 20 years ago when they first arrive...  illogical in current time frame when the field has changed dramatically.
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Nanaki

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #245 on: 19 August 2011, 17:41:57 »
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Sound familiar? A seemingly unstoppable military force armed with advanced weapon systems carving out vast swathes of territory from the established empires?

The IJN had no advanced weapon systems whatsoever.

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All the advanced technology in the world just can NOT make up for the disparity in resources. It didn't matter that the Germans actually fielded the world's first JET FIGHTER that outperformed Allied warplanes in every single way because the Allies could afford to lose a dozen planes to shoot down one of the jets because they could build two dozen planes in the time it would take the Germans to build one replacement jet.

A large portion of Germany's loss in World War II can be attributed to the fact that the top German leadership was full of idiots whom had no idea what they were doing.

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Someone upthread lamented that allowing the Inner Sphere to have Clantech would relegate the Clans to minor power status. I've got news for you. They already are, and indeed, always have been, minor powers that never really stood a chance against the combined forces of the Inner Sphere.

The Lyran Commonwealth and Free Worlds League would beg to differ. Even the Draconis Combine failed in their attempt to stab the Nova Cats in the back while the Cats were fighting the Combine's war against the Bears.

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Historically speaking, the high point of the Clans was 3050, after which their importance to the Inner Sphere waned signicantly.

Their importance has waned significantly, but even then they are still important. The Clans remain very big movers and shakers in 3144. When I said the Clans would be demoted to minor powers, I was looking more to the Tikonov Republic and the St Ives Compact as examples. Those are minor powers that had very little bearing on the universe as a whole, and barely were able to last a few years before they were simply annexed by the much bigger Successor States. That would be the future of the Clans if the Inner Sphere was allowed to retool their entire infrastructure and industry to Clantech.

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There's a LOT more interesting stuff going on in the Clan future that doesn't hinge a bit on their level of technological advancement relative to the rest of the Inner Sphere.

Their technological advantage allows them to retain a bit of relevancy in the overall storyline, which they would not have if the Successor States were able to mass-manufacture Clantech on their own.

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The Battletech Universe of 3150 is not going to be like that of 3050... and that's a GOOD thing.

The MUL seems to indicate that the Inner Sphere in 3133 gets their clantech the exact same way as they had in 3052: Salvage or Trade.

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We have now established within setting an internally consistent way things are able to function but this is not a perpetual motion engine here.  Things get worse for the clans.  Operation Bulldog, fighting between the Falcons and the Wolves, infighting between Hell's Horses and about anyone they can get their hands on it seemed, the exodus of the Bears (which didn't go QUITE as well as they hoped), the flight of the Ravens to the IS (DEFINITELY didn't go as well as they had hoped), the Jihad, and the WoR and destruction a good deal of things that remove the Homeworlds from the equation of power within the Inner Sphere and putting a good deal of the IS based clans on their hind ends in less than desirable straights.

At the same time, though, the Inner Sphere goes through the Jihad which extensively wrecked their economies and military production, so pretty much everybody is being knocked down more or less evenly... well, unless your a Ghost Bear (Actually, the Ghost Bears got out of the Clan Homeworlds relatively unscathed compared to the other Clans)

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They are honestly not what I would call a 'super power' anymore...  their time has come and gone thanks to nearly 20 years of writing them into minor power status.

Again, the Lyran Commonwealth and Free Worlds League would beg to differ.

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This is also in the face of the Experimental books already having their tech being cracked (finally).

You forgot to mention that the Inner Sphere later decided that it was not worth upgrading to Clantech and dropped it completely. The Dark Ages and the MUL support this, as there is no Inner Sphere-built Clantech to be found.

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It would be tossing out the progress being made in game just to allow players to feel special about themselves because they are playing the mega-vehicles and swear allegiance to clan (Insert an animal here) while for some reason, despite proof being out there that we may soon see the Star League era inefficient garbage slipping away for at least 'modern' (read here Clan tech) incarnations or just consigned to realm of second line units, is ludicrous.  It is actually downright pandering to a certain subsect who want to feel extra special because they want to play trueborn pilots who are all masters at warfare and have mega-warmachines that allow them to scythe through their uneducated enemies like a hot knife through butter.  That worked twenty years ago but time moves forward, supported by the fluff in setting.

Lets face it, take away the realism argument and you have no leg to stand on. That is why you people keep defaulting to it.
« Last Edit: 19 August 2011, 17:44:10 by Nanaki »

stoicfaux

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #246 on: 19 August 2011, 17:55:52 »
Adders didn't use zeil when attacking tainted clans or the society. Essentially, they turned their Warden attitude towards protecting the Clans from the IS "taint" rather than the IS from themselves (or other Clans). They didn't cut out their brains. The Adder Khan is very reasonable and intelligent, very far from reactinary. Since he's the defacto ilKhan, that influences all the Homeworld Clans very strongly.

If you're getting this impression from reading the WoR, then you may want to go back and reread it. The Clans may have a different approach to warfare, but they're not blithering fools. They can addapt, and they DID adapt during the WoR, the ones that didn't are dead.

The HomeWorld Clans have regressed.  They use zell within the untainted clans in order to prevent the damage that total war causes.  Future generations of warriors are going to know nothing but zell as a means of fighting.  They're still fixated on genetics.  They still have the caste system.  They're still stuck with resource poor worlds.

Even if the Clans rebuild, they still have some seemingly insurmountable obstacles to another invasion of the IS.  They have to rebuild their warship and jumpship fleets.  They still have a ridiculously long logistical trail.  The IS and IS-Clans know the location of the Home Worlds which leaves them vulnerable to counter attack.  The IS-Clans took a lot of Clan technology and expertise with them and the IS worlds have greater resources to build and improve upon Clan tech, so the HomeWorld Clans most likely won't have a tech advantage.




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Because TPTB aren't going to get rid of everything that makes the clans interesting, it woudl be a stupid move on their part, getting rid of the tech gap. All of a sudden the clans are what? Slightly better trained mechwarriors, and that's it? BOOOOOOOORRRRIIINNNGGGGG! It's like Tolkien describing Orcs as "meanies"

The gap HAS to remain between Clan and IS technology, otherwise they're essentially cutting off one of their own feet. Clan fans would hate it, and it would reduce the diversity in cultures and factions in the game, while serving utterly no good story line.

Or, maybe the Clans as high-tech alien invaders plot card is played out and it's time for something new?  The BT universe isn't static and the writers are quite happy to shake things up a bit.  The HomeWorld Clans are cliche and irrelevant unless TPTB re-invent them.   


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While this may be metagaming, it's still a huge part of the decision making process. Combining IS and Clan tech just doesn't help anyone.

BattleTech 2.0?  A total revamp of the game rules?  IMO, the game rules are starting to get clumsy and are running into scalability problems in terms of weapon damage, armor, and equipment effects.  For example, armor BAR and the damage reduction of newer armors is a bit clumsy.  BT 2.0 armor might be modeled on penetration over albation as weapon lethality increases.

Or maybe it's time shift the game's historical background?  We started with MechWarriors in a feudal society that moved to Renaissance Europe to WWII style warfare back to a heavily balkanized Dark Ages type setting-ish.  What historical paradigm is 3150 going to be modeled on?


Fear Factory

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #247 on: 19 August 2011, 18:01:08 »
So what's wrong with Clan Technology going extinct?  Heck, even crap like C3 that gets abused?  Throwing this crap across the board isn't going to solve anything.
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Khymerion

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #248 on: 19 August 2011, 18:40:14 »

Lets face it, take away the realism argument and you have no leg to stand on. That is why you people keep defaulting to it.

But that is a much better argument than just saying 'Clans need to stay special because of space magic that always makes them better and no matter what, no matter what gets developed, it will always be automatically smaller, lighter, cooler, and more damaging than anything the Inner Sphere has plus with super pilots genetically created to be better at everything' which is what the current clans hide behind...  despite evidence to the contrary within an internally consistent universe.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #249 on: 19 August 2011, 18:47:57 »
For the record, I <3 space magic

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Nanaki

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #250 on: 19 August 2011, 18:50:08 »
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So what's wrong with Clan Technology going extinct?  Heck, even crap like C3 that gets abused?  Throwing this crap across the board isn't going to solve anything.

There is still the balance issues between the Successor States and the Clans to contend with... the Successor States are many times larger than the clans, they have much larger militaries, that is the reasons why the Clans have clantech to begin with, is to balance out quantity with quality.

But that is a much better argument than just saying 'Clans need to stay special because of space magic that always makes them better and no matter what, no matter what gets developed, it will always be automatically smaller, lighter, cooler, and more damaging than anything the Inner Sphere has plus with super pilots genetically created to be better at everything' which is what the current clans hide behind...  despite evidence to the contrary within an internally consistent universe.

Nice strawman. Care to actually address my arguments?

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #251 on: 19 August 2011, 19:07:59 »
BattleTech 2.0?  A total revamp of the game rules? IMO, the game rules are starting to get clumsy and are running into scalability problems in terms of weapon damage, armor, and equipment effects.  For example, armor BAR and the damage reduction of newer armors is a bit clumsy.  BT 2.0 armor might be modeled on penetration over albation as weapon lethality increases.

In your opinion. Not mine, and not that of many other fans of the game as is. You wanting a "total revamp"doesn't mean the majority of fans do, nor does it mean your preference would be the best business plan. Looking at the history of battletech development, and the fact that a total revamp would render all current TROS obsolete, and I suspect that you're in for a disappointment.
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Moonsword

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #252 on: 19 August 2011, 19:27:06 »
The IJN had no advanced weapon systems whatsoever.

Point of order: The IJN's Type 93 and Type 95 torpedoes were the best in the war.

stoicfaux

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #253 on: 19 August 2011, 19:49:49 »
In your opinion. Not mine, and not that of many other fans of the game as is. You wanting a "total revamp"doesn't mean the majority of fans do, nor does it mean your preference would be the best business plan. Looking at the history of battletech development, and the fact that a total revamp would render all current TROS obsolete, and I suspect that you're in for a disappointment.

I wasn't clear with my point.  The HomeWorld Clans have, for the most part, regressed back to their orthodox initial starting configuration.  As myself and others have pointed out, it doesn't make sense for TPTB to rehash the Clan alien tech boogie man invader scenario.  The HomeWorld Clans don't have the resources to be a meaningful threat to the IS/IS-Clans. 

Yet, as you pointed out, the HomeWorld Clans are/were a major storyline component and have their fans, so it would be a waste/disappointment for the HomeWorld Clans to go gently into that good night.  Instead of using writers fiat to stomp over what little suspension of disbelief that BT has by keeping the HomeWorld Clans as a technologically superior foe waiting to turn the IS upside down, the TPTB could be planning on either a complete overhaul of the historical paradigm/plot/story and cast the HomeWorld Clans in a new role (ex:  a RL example would be the USSR splintered into individual countries with Russia trying to reclaim it's lost Soviet-era Glory) or TPTB could introduce some game changing technology that turns Mech warfare upside down (ex:  RL examples:  blitzkrieg, air power, industrialization, etc..)

Examples of game changing Mech warfare would be a migration to larger, smarter missiles instead of lots of LRMs, or finally replacing traditional propellant autocannons with gauss "autocannons".  Instead of albation, the new magic armor could rely heavily on DR (damage reduction) instead. 

Long story short, the TPTB might have written themselves into a corner and it's time for new storyline and technology paradigms to emerge.  (Which translates into new fiction, new rulebooks, new TROs, all of which (hopefully) equals income.)



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the fact that a total revamp would render all current TROS obsolete, and I suspect that you're in for a disappointment.

IMO, the TROs are already obsolete.  The sheer number of mech designs available has gotten silly and unwieldy . 

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #254 on: 19 August 2011, 20:05:23 »
So, when the IS finally catches up to the Clantech what excuse do we give that the Clan's are just going to sit there and not develop their own advanced gear?

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #255 on: 19 August 2011, 20:09:47 »
Point of order: The IJN's Type 93 and Type 95 torpedoes were the best in the war.

It is more like the German's Tiger tanks. Certainly impressive when it came to range and firepower, but they were huge and very prone to explode, and were actually responsible for sinking a good number of Japanese ships on their own. It also had absolutly no effect on post-war torpedo design (infact, the German electric acoustic torpedoes would end up being further developed in the United States into the Mark 37, which would serve the US Navy until the 1970s).
« Last Edit: 19 August 2011, 20:24:17 by Nanaki »

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #256 on: 19 August 2011, 20:10:26 »
So, when the IS finally catches up to the Clantech what excuse do we give that the Clan's are just going to sit there and not develop their own advanced gear?

Duh.  The real reason for Operation Revival: the Clanners wanted to get their hands on stupid pills.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #257 on: 19 August 2011, 20:13:34 »
I disagree that the Homeworld CLans can't still be a threat. The Jihad just blew the crap out of most military factories and units in the IS, the Homworld clans have a clear leader (Star Adders tell them to jump, and the HW Clans ask how high?

How is the IS supposedly going to gain all this technological prowess when for the next 65 years it's concentrating more on civilian technology, we already know that's what it's doing and going to continue doing.

TPTB have stated that after the WoR, there's going to be around a 5 year gap before more products encompassing deep periphery factions. So in a way, you're getting your wish, the Homeworld Clans aren't going to be arround. However there's nothing to stop them from changing more in the mean time.

As for resouces. That's an easy enough answer. What do you think owuld happen if the Clans took over the Hanseatic League for example? Dozens of new worlds to stripmine or what have you...A relatively weak defense. The Hanseatic League is low hanging fruit, and I suspect it will fall within the next century.

BAR 10 armor is standard, Ferro Lamellar is essentially Bar 11, not all that complex to me, BAR 12 would behave in a similiar manner, but better, and weapons designed to penetrate taha sort of armor would be easy enough to describe.

The Clans have also developed new weapons systems that use less resources (eg Protomechs) and "smarter missiles" as you mentioned iATMs are about the smartest missiles you can find in the game.

The entire IS is already cast as feuding factions of a once powerful star league, why do the same thing with the Clans. The homeworld clans are getting at least 65 years to change, do you honestly expect them NOT to change?

They have a new concern, the taint, from which they must protect themselves, they've got higher techs to build on than the IS, and while they admittedly just went through a highly destructuve war, so did EVERYONE ****** ELSE!

Duh.  The real reason for Operation Revival: the Clanners wanted to get their hands on stupid pills.

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Red Pins

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #258 on: 20 August 2011, 00:52:12 »
...Gah.  I have to agree with some of all this.

IMO, the TROs are already obsolete.  The sheer number of mech designs available has gotten silly and unwieldy . 

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Sartris

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #259 on: 20 August 2011, 01:07:46 »
Hopefully once we hit 3150, the MUL will show us more designs that have become extinct.  There are currently nearly 200 variants are no longer around by the Republic era (excluding 3067).  Granted, that's well short of 10% of all variants, but I expect that list to grow substantially when we come out of the time warp. 

I see nothing wrong with introducing some new designs if they kill off a few.  And I suspect that we'll lose more than we gain. 

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #260 on: 20 August 2011, 01:13:24 »
IMO, the TROs are already obsolete.  The sheer number of mech designs available has gotten silly and unwieldy .

It wouldn't be so bad if FASA hadn't over-saturated the market with four different TROs (not counting 3058!) over a ten year in-game period. I think making 3085 such a fat tome was also a bad idea. TRO's should be like Prototypes: short, lots of different unit types and more variants than new designs.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #261 on: 20 August 2011, 01:18:08 »
TRO's should be like Prototypes: short, lots of different unit types and more variants than new designs.

Personally, I'd rather go the other way. More new designs and way less variants. Too many designs have traveled so far from their style and roots.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #262 on: 20 August 2011, 01:27:40 »
That's because most new variants are of ancient designs; I think we're getting close to triple digits on the number of Archer variants. The Apollo, meanwhile, has about three. So how about more Apollo, Enfield and Sirocco variants and less repeats of TRO: 3025 designs?

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #263 on: 20 August 2011, 01:31:37 »
That's because most new variants are of ancient designs; I think we're getting close to triple digits on the number of Archer variants. The Apollo, meanwhile, has about three. So how about more Apollo, Enfield and Sirocco variants and less repeats of TRO: 3025 designs?

I'll drink some of that Kool-Aid

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Blackjack Jones

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #264 on: 20 August 2011, 05:09:40 »
Well some of the 'TRO bloat' is the simple fact that the core game and construction rules have managed to stay unchanged during the games lifetime.
It's very unlike other game systems- 40k obviously with the army lists, but even DnD had to revamp their Monster Manuals with each version of the game.

I have no issue with the number of TRO's that have gone out, it's more an issue so many designs have stayed in operation in the course of the main plot.
And to echo Sartis' comment, the MUL list needs to start showing more designs extinct, not only by 3150, but by the DA actually- hopefully a lot more of the
"To be Announced" entries for the Republic Era of the MUL change to "Extinct". Right now we've got 'Mechs from TRO:2750, 3025/3039, 3050, 3055, 3060,
3067, Project Phoenix, 3075, 3085, and Prototypes in some level of use by the end of the Jihad.

At the very least it's past time to junk the SW tech variants remaining given that even the Periphery powers are producing Star League tech (or better) designs.
I doubt anyone would shed a tear if all the IS refits from 3050 got junked as well, it's not as if most of those said designs didn't get another version in 3085 as a
main article or the ONN section. The collapse of C*/WoB should mean many of those designs from 2750 onwards should be on the way out as well. If TPTB were even a
bit more ambitious, the factories damaged/destroyed in the Jihad wouldn't resume building their old designs when/if reconstructed, and move on to newer
ones. That would leave us with the Clan section of 3050, and the bulk of 3055 onwards. But then again, CGL might suprise me and get real aggressive and say that
TRO:3085 is the 'Baseline TRO' moving forward, given the number of designs present should be able to provide a minimum number of 'historic' units to back up newer TRO's.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #265 on: 20 August 2011, 05:42:52 »
That's because most new variants are of ancient designs; I think we're getting close to triple digits on the number of Archer variants. The Apollo, meanwhile, has about three. So how about more Apollo, Enfield and Sirocco variants and less repeats of TRO: 3025 designs?

Well....3067 was unpopular, wasn't it? I mean..why else would IWM minis from 3060 and 3067 end up not selling well and being archived?
Admittedly, that is something that has always bothered me: The only things that ever seem to get canonical upgrades are the
oldest designs and then you have the newest designs being built with all the new toys. At the same time, you see fewer designs like
the Jagermech III and Awesome 9Q, where they take older and newer tech and merge them into something actually amazing to see.
But, yes, let's see some Viking, No-Dachi, Lao Hu, Hellfire, Lobo, and Bowman upgrades using all the new fun toys!
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #266 on: 20 August 2011, 07:05:54 »
Well....3067 was unpopular, wasn't it? I mean..why else would IWM minis from 3060 and 3067 end up not selling well and being archived?
Admittedly, that is something that has always bothered me: The only things that ever seem to get canonical upgrades are the
oldest designs and then you have the newest designs being built with all the new toys. At the same time, you see fewer designs like
the Jagermech III and Awesome 9Q, where they take older and newer tech and merge them into something actually amazing to see.
But, yes, let's see some Viking, No-Dachi, Lao Hu, Hellfire, Lobo, and Bowman upgrades using all the new fun toys!

Well obviously newer designs wouldn't have as many variants (outside of omni's of course). But we should be seeing more variants of the
newer designs. At best, most of the 3055/58 crowd had maybe one variant beyond the base model to start, had another tacked on when the
those TRO's got 'upgraded', and another in 3085 ONN.

As for the mini thing, it does boil down to a 'bang for the buck' problem, not all that dissimilar to the 'omni problem' with TRO's and miniatures.
If one isn't being strict about what variant a mini is (not that I want BT to end up like 40K), an Archer might as well be as much as an omni
as a Timber Wolf. Even if you strictly consider that miniature one variant you still get more value over a newer one, because you often can use
it across a number of game eras, where the newer chassis are only valid from the point of their introduction onwards. It's one of those things that
can really only be solved by moving forwards in timeline, and adding more variants to the newer designs, and killing off a whole lot of the old variants still around.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #267 on: 20 August 2011, 07:44:36 »
Long story short, the TPTB might have written themselves into a corner and it's time for new storyline and technology paradigms to emerge.  (Which translates into new fiction, new rulebooks, new TROs, all of which (hopefully) equals income.)



Or you do BT 2.0, lose 80%+ of your fanbase because everything they have from the rest of the universe is obsolete/not compatible with the new system and they simply throw up their hands, say "**** it" and go off and play something else.   Lots less income going to be coming in at that point. ::)

If you're going to level the playing field,  level it all at the level of "everybody now has Clan tech", get rid of the disparity in tech levels and go from there.
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #268 on: 20 August 2011, 08:12:21 »
I wouldn't mind seeing the tech bases merge. Keep the old stuff around, but let properly cutting edge equipment combine Clan weight and space efficiency with IS flexibility -- like, say, autocannons with Clan LB-X model stats but the full range of now standard-compatible alternate ammo types in addition to standard and cluster. Advanced technology inevitably gets spread around in both real life and the BT universe because, if nothing else, everybody has somebody else they're worried about and wants to have an edge over just in case.

I mean, BattleMechs remained pure Terran Hegemony 'factional' tech for exactly how long, again?

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #269 on: 20 August 2011, 09:04:54 »
There is still the balance issues between the Successor States and the Clans to contend with... the Successor States are many times larger than the clans, they have much larger militaries, that is the reasons why the Clans have clantech to begin with, is to balance out quantity with quality.
This presumes (mistakenly, I believe) that the TPTB intend to keep having the Clans as a major power and opponent to the Inner Sphere when the past 20 years of setting development has been about how elements of the Clans have split off and joined or otherwise merged with various pre-existing Inner Sphere factions (first the Dragoons, then Wolf-In-Exile, then the Nova Cats make a deal with the Draconis Combine (and then the RotS), then the Diamond Sharks move in as free traders, the Ghost Bears and Ravens make deals with Inner Sphere powers, and the Scorpions become el Scorpio Imperium).

By all accounts the Clans look to be moving firmly into minor powers status with their only prospects for not being so laying in doing the unthinkable and presenting a unified front and compromising with their ancient rivals.

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Nice strawman. Care to actually address my arguments?
Your arguments are that realism and logic shouldn't count and that the individual Clans should magically remain at major power status despite everything inside the Battletech Universe telling us they should fall to minor power status on par with the Taurians or the Magistry (who are nothing to sneeze at; just not in the Suns' or Lyrans' or Combines' league).

Trying to address the argument "BUT... I WANTS IT!!!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

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The IJN had no advanced weapon systems whatsoever.
Their torpedoes were the most advanced in the world during the war. At the start of the war their Zero fighters outperformed everything in the Allies' arsenal. They also mounted the largest guns ever (18 inchers) on their battleships (no other navy in the world used guns that large). What kicked their butts was their lack of production capacity compared to the United States.

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A large portion of Germany's loss in World War II can be attributed to the fact that the top German leadership was full of idiots whom had no idea what they were doing.

And the Clans' reliance on might-makes-right leadership where the winners of one-on-one physical duels get to be the generals instead of say, people who demonstrate an actual grasp of strategy, was not sheer idiocy?

The Germans produced vastly superior tanks, had the devestating 88's (good for ground attack as well as anti-aircraft) and fielded the world's first JET FIGHTER, but were hamstrung by a poor industrial base that literally could not compete with the Allies (at least not after the US got involved... the disparity in production numbers between the US and the rest of the world during the war are STAGGERING). They also had shoddy leadership from the get go.

In other words, the Axis powers of WWII are actually a wonderful model of what befell the Clans, and probably their long term future as well. Once they had the crap kicked out of them both Germany and Japan were re-built under new leadership and became allies of the United States.

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The Lyran Commonwealth and Free Worlds League would beg to differ [about the Clans being a minor power].
So would the British, the Chinese, and even some of the Americans during 1941 when the Japenese juggernaut rolled across the Pacific. Then they hit the limits of their supply chains and production capacity and got steamrolled by the Allies whose monthly production capacity exceeded their annual capacity.

By the same token, what sort of power is Japan today (here's a hint: they have no military to speak of, their economy has been stagnating for the past two-decades, and they got hit by a major tsunami not too long ago)?

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Those are minor powers that had very little bearing on the universe as a whole, and barely were able to last a few years before they were simply annexed by the much bigger Successor States. That would be the future of the Clans if the Inner Sphere was allowed to retool their entire infrastructure and industry to Clantech.
And because they're the Clans that means magic pixie-fairies are going to come and save them from the inevitiable crush of human history?

You say "the Clans would become a minor power" like its a BAD THING. It is neither good nor bad. It simply IS. Things in 2011 are not like they were in 1911. Entire EMPIRES formed and fell to ruin inside those hundred years. Time marches on.

What keeps BattleTech interesting is that it marches on too. We aren't perpetually stuck in 3025. Nations are born. Nations fall. Alliances shift. Leadership changes hands. Its that continued change over time that gives BattleTech much of its versimiltude and makes it so engrossing. What you're asking for is for them to make a special magic exception to what's made BattleTech such a great setting because your favored faction won't be keeping its major power status.

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Their technological advantage allows them to retain a bit of relevancy in the overall storyline, which they would not have if the Successor States were able to mass-manufacture Clantech on their own.
My favorite faction has always been the Northwind Highlanders (you might say I'm a HUGE fan of the Clans... Gunn and MacKenzie to be specific :D ). They've NEVER had a unique technology base. At best they've had ONE WORLD under their control. Doesn't keep them from being relevant to any story someone would care to tell about them.

By the same token, my Highlanders ended up shut out of pretty much the entire Jihad story due to the blockade. It didn't bother me because it made sense to the story. For the Jihad campaigns I created MacKenzie's Company; a small group of Highlanders who'd been delayed getting back to Northwind when the Wobbies started their blockade. They were a mixed company (just one lance of Mechs, two of vehicles, an air lance, a platoon of battle armor and a couple of platoons of infantry) who never did anything world-shaking during the Jihad, but the stories I created out of the characters involved made it interesting for me.

Basically what you seem to be saying is that Clans don't have an interesting enough society or heritage to make them interesting on their own. The only thing that makes them interesting is a Mary Sue tech advantage. That's just SAD really.

Personally, I think there's more than enough in the Clans to keep them interesting even if they had shown up with just Star League-era tech back in 3050.

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The Dark Ages and the MUL support this, as there is no Inner Sphere-built Clantech to be found.
The MUL (and by extension the units that Dark Ages stories had available to use) were also put together off existing game assets. The XTRO's and Prototypes are the first products to seriously look at putting out canon units using mixed technology.

As additional TRO's come out that include mixed tech, I'd expect those MUL's for 3150 to change significantly.

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Lets face it, take away the realism argument and you have no leg to stand on. That is why you people keep defaulting to it.
Let's face it, take away magic-pixie fairies and you have no leg to stand on. Your argument resides entirely on the demand that rational human beings throw away their rationality because you want the Clans to always be major players in a universe that evolved past them.

Edit: spelling and grammar.
« Last Edit: 20 August 2011, 09:08:07 by Chris24601 »