Author Topic: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?  (Read 7236 times)

Cannon_Fodder

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 642
  • Dream of freedom from the 2d6 bell curve.
Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« on: 01 February 2011, 07:19:39 »
Need some help converting Velocity to kph. I know that each hex is 500m. Are the turns still 60 sec or back to 10 sec or 6 sec? I have done the math several times but nothing ever meets up with the speed numbers mentioned in fluff and TROs. Help me.

Avatar by ShadowRaven  Sig banner by HikageMaru

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6288
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #1 on: 01 February 2011, 07:27:31 »
The low altitude map uses 500-meter hexes and, like ground combat, 10-second turns. This means 1 hex per turn is 500m/10s = 50m/s.

50 meters per second translates to 180kph (exactly) and 112mph (rounding up from 111.87).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Cannon_Fodder

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 642
  • Dream of freedom from the 2d6 bell curve.
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #2 on: 01 February 2011, 07:41:23 »
Thanks, well that means that the fluff is way off. What I was starting to think anyhow. Here is the offending information:

TRO: Vehicle Annex pg 118 C-790 Protector High Speed Medevac (think it should be Medivac)

Stats say 4/5 (typo) with SI 8 (another typo)

In the text is says it has a cruise speed of 900 kph with bursts of speed up to Mach 3

EDIT: Backwards math on a 52.5 ton Tech C ICE engine should be a 5/8
« Last Edit: 01 February 2011, 07:45:42 by Cannon_Fodder »

Avatar by ShadowRaven  Sig banner by HikageMaru

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6288
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #3 on: 01 February 2011, 08:07:18 »
Thanks, well that means that the fluff is way off. What I was starting to think anyhow. Here is the offending information:

TRO: Vehicle Annex pg 118 C-790 Protector High Speed Medevac (think it should be Medivac)

Stats say 4/5 (typo) with SI 8 (another typo)

In the text is says it has a cruise speed of 900 kph with bursts of speed up to Mach 3

TRO: Vehicle Annex is completely correct on speeds. The C-790 can enter the high altitude map up to row 1, where each hex per turn is equivalent to 1 mach. Top speed allowed to any aircraft on row 1 (without suffering damage) is 3 hexes per turn, or mach 3. You only need 2 thrust points to reach mach 3 on the high altitude map, so the C-790 is over-engined for its peak speed.

While 1 hex per turn on the high altitude map is supposedly 1080kph, it'd be reasonable for an aircraft to throttle back a bit to avoid the high-drag transonic region and cruise at 900kph.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Cannon_Fodder

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 642
  • Dream of freedom from the 2d6 bell curve.
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #4 on: 01 February 2011, 08:11:57 »
TRO: Vehicle Annex is completely correct on speeds. The C-790 can enter the high altitude map up to row 1, {snip}

Well not really..........

TW pg 80 High -Altitude Movement
Prohibited Units: Conventional fighters, air-ships and Fixed-Wing Support Vehicles cannont operate at high altitudes. This Means they cannont move onto an atmospherice hex on the space map.

Avatar by ShadowRaven  Sig banner by HikageMaru

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6288
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #5 on: 01 February 2011, 08:18:42 »
You have an out-of-date copy of Total Warfare. Check TW errata.

pg80, copying-and-pasting from the Third Printing pdf:

Restricted units: Airships and VTOLs are prohibited from
entering the high-altitude map. Such a prohibited move automatically
fails and the unit’s controlling player must immediately
make a Control Roll.

Conventional fi ghters and Fixed Wing Support Vehicles can
enter the high-altitude map, but are restricted to the ground row
and atmospheric row 1 (see the High-Altitude Map diagram, p.
75). Propeller-driven Fixed Wing Support Vehicles may only move
1 hex per turn when on the high-altitude map.


So, yes, the C-790 can enter the high altitude map. This probably applies to the 2nd printing, too, since TRO:VA revealed a lot of errata required for TW and TM on support vehicles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Cannon_Fodder

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 642
  • Dream of freedom from the 2d6 bell curve.
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #6 on: 01 February 2011, 08:26:28 »
There we go. I have 1st printing of TW.

The Safe/Max thrust and SI on the C-790 are still wrong.

Avatar by ShadowRaven  Sig banner by HikageMaru

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6288
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #7 on: 01 February 2011, 09:27:57 »
The Safe/Max thrust and SI on the C-790 are still wrong.

Did you check the errata on TR:VA? It came out in 2007 and there's been plenty of time for folks to submit errata on it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Cannon_Fodder

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 642
  • Dream of freedom from the 2d6 bell curve.
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #8 on: 01 February 2011, 10:01:21 »
Did you check the errata on TR:VA? It came out in 2007 and there's been plenty of time for folks to submit errata on it.
Didn't see an errata for TRO:VA

Avatar by ShadowRaven  Sig banner by HikageMaru

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6288
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #9 on: 01 February 2011, 10:10:50 »
Yeah, I'm a little curious where they're stored. The official CBT.com Errata page dates to FanPro.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Moonsword

  • Acutus Gladius
  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16602
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #10 on: 01 February 2011, 10:11:34 »
Yeah, I'm a little curious where they're stored. The official CBT.com Errata page dates to FanPro.

They've been updated occasionally from what I've seen, but the errata has more recently been stored in the threads in my experience.  Those are still being put back together.

Goose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1399
  • … the Laws on his tail, burning for home …
    • Home of HeavyMetal Pro
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #11 on: 02 February 2011, 19:43:15 »
Allow me to chime in with this question: What needs a thrust of three to take off? Could I build a thrust 1 prop-fixed-wing bird and expect it to move? A thrust-one, VSTOL-prop-fixed-wing?
Goose
The Ancient Egyptian God of Fractional AccountingAnimare Tai-sa Shikishima
I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

Moonsword

  • Acutus Gladius
  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16602
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #12 on: 02 February 2011, 19:53:49 »
TW page 88: "A unit cannot lift off if it has a Safe Thrust of 2 or less."  No exceptions are made.  The section doesn't specifically mention support vehicles, however.

One of the real aero wonks may be able to provide a more complete answer.

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3402
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #13 on: 11 February 2011, 12:34:19 »
TW page 88: "A unit cannot lift off if it has a Safe Thrust of 2 or less."  No exceptions are made.  The section doesn't specifically mention support vehicles, however.

One of the real aero wonks may be able to provide a more complete answer.
That sentence refers to vertical liftoffs; thepreceding and following sentences in thesame parragraph make the context (vertical liftoffs) clear.

There is no minimum for an aerodyne (i.e. aerodyne small craft, ASF, conventional fighter or fixed wing support craft), though the craft in question would be theoretically unable to gain altitude; in effect,  it would be a powered glider.

To wit, TW pp. 84 states that in order to gain altitude, an aerodyne must spend 2 thrust points. Not a problem for a 1/2 thrust aerodyne; after the necessary acceleration on the ground, the aerodyne is at altitude 1 on the low altitude map... no problem, that is, until you take into account velocity loss:

Turn 1: accelerating along the runway; turn ends at altitude 1, velocity 2
Turn 2: loses one velocity point, thrusts 2 forward; turn ends at altitude 1, velocity 3
Turn 3: loses half velocity, rounded down (2 points) - three choices: A) land, B) 2 thrust forward, remain at altitude 1 for remainder of the flight, C) attempt to gain altitude (choose C): spend two thrust to gain one altitude; turn ends at altitude 2 velocity 1
Turn 4: loses half velocity (one whole point); starts the turn with velocity 0; if the aerodyne has VSTOL capability, no problem (aerodyne can continue spending thrust to either gain velocity [max 4] or altitude, if not, the aerodyne stalls, dropping one altitude level (to altitude 1) and forcing a control roll (failing this roll would be Badtm); even if it makes it, the aerodyne would be stuck in the cycle of trying to gain altitude.

Of course, if the runway was at the edge of a cliff (of low altitude proportions), the non-VSTOL aerodyne could choose to drop 2 altitude levels in order to gain a velocity point, so that in a subsequent turn the aerodyne could end a turn with a velocity of 4, thus it would start the next turn with a velocity of 2, which would allow it to spend its entire thrust (all two points of it) into gaining altitude; thus it would operate as follows:

Turn 1: end of runway: altitude 1*, velocity 2
Turn 2: velocity 1 /   2 thrust forward (over the edge of the cliff); altitude 1, velocity 3
Turn 3: velocity 1 /  2 thrust forward, descend 2 altitude levels (free); altitude -1, velocity 4
Turn 4: velocity 2/   2 thrust to climb 1 altitude level; altitude 0, velocity 2
Turn 5: velocity 1/   2 thrust forward; altitude 2, velocity 3
Lather, rinse, repeat.

*for reference; the runway could be at a higher altitude OR the cliff could be over a DEEP precipice


Note that it can either maintain altitude or drop altitude; a non VSTOL 1/2 thrust aerodyne is a powered glider.

OTOH, a VSTOL-capable 1/2 thrust aerodyne could actually gain altitude up to and including the atmospheric boundary on the high altitude map (they can't climb higher since they can't spend 4 thrust in a single turn).

Nebfer

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1398
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #14 on: 13 February 2011, 16:57:36 »
So I would assume that 2/3 is the minimum safe thrust in this case?

Fallguy

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • The FWL: Who says Civil War can't be fun?
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #15 on: 17 February 2011, 11:06:24 »
Last time I checked, losing half of velocity 3 rounded down is a loss of 1 point of velocity, not 2. I'd have to recheck the rule again to see if it's supposed to round up or down, but I believe it's rounded down, eliminating the issue you spoke of, Fireangel.
 
As a result, the turn flow would go as follows:
 
Turn 1: 2 thrust forward to take off; altitude 1, velocity 2
Turn 2: velocity drops to 1 (drag); 2 thrust forward; altitude 1, velocity 3
Turn 3: velocity drops to 2 (drag); 2 thrust to gain 1 altitude;  altitude 2, velocity 2
Turn 4: velocity drops to 1 (drag); 2 thrust forward; altitude 2, velocity 3
Turn 5: Repeat Turn 3; altitude 3, velocity 2
Turn 6: Repeat Turn 4; altitude 3, velocity 3
etc.
 
YMMV as always.
--
"Luke, you're goint to find that many of the truthes we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Obi-Wan Kenobi

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3402
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: Low Altitude Map Velocity to kph?
« Reply #16 on: 17 February 2011, 11:55:37 »
Last time I checked, losing half of velocity 3 rounded down is a loss of 1 point of velocity, not 2. I'd have to recheck the rule again to see if it's supposed to round up or down, but I believe it's rounded down, eliminating the issue you spoke of, Fireangel.
 
As a result, the turn flow would go as follows:
 
Turn 1: 2 thrust forward to take off; altitude 1, velocity 2
Turn 2: velocity drops to 1 (drag); 2 thrust forward; altitude 1, velocity 3
Turn 3: velocity drops to 2 (drag); 2 thrust to gain 1 altitude;  altitude 2, velocity 2
Turn 4: velocity drops to 1 (drag); 2 thrust forward; altitude 2, velocity 3
Turn 5: Repeat Turn 3; altitude 3, velocity 2
Turn 6: Repeat Turn 4; altitude 3, velocity 3
etc.
 
YMMV as always.

TW pp. 84 states: "At the beginning of each turn, reduce the velocity of atmospheric units by half (rounding fractions down."

The examples include a velocity of 5 reduced by half to 2.5, rounded down to 2.

3 = 1.5 = 1  :'(

Good try, though.  O0


Now, to shoot myself in the foot (I can't believe nobody called me on the carpet over it!), my previous example is wrong. The maximum velocity in the lower atmosphere is twice SAFE thrust, not twice MAX thrust. 

This means that a 1/2 thrust aerodyne will have a maximum velocity of 2 (not 4... I still can't believe I made such a noob mistake!), so it is incapable of gaining altitude on its own (barring some pretty extraordinary circumstances, or VSTOL capability), though it can maintain altitude (so it better pray terrain does not go up in front of it!), so it can be a good (CHEAP) orbital insertion vehicle.

A 2/3 thrust non-VSTOL aerodyne does not have that problem; it can spend 3 thrust per turn, so it can start a turn with velocity 4, lose 2 to drag, then spend 1 to increase velocity to 3 and 2 to climb one altitude level,starting the following turn with 3, reduced to 1, then spending all three max thrust into velocity so it starts the following turn at velocity 4. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Of course,it would still be unable to cross the atmospheric boundary on the high altitude map.


Basically, even a 1/2 thrust aerodyne can take off and gain altitude provided it is VSTOL-capable. If it isn't, it is just a powered glider.

 

Register