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Author Topic: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn  (Read 3466 times)

Trace Coburn

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Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« on: 23 May 2013, 02:58:31 »
Y-2 Yùn - 40t, TRO3145:CCAF

  All proposed fan-variants should be posted in the corresponding “FotW Workshop” thread.

No image available at the time of writing.  But believe me: FlyingDebris did it again. O0

 
Quote from: TRO3145:CCAF
Mujika’s fighter builds upon the concept of air-deployed infantry pioneered by the Troika. Unlike its predecessor, the stealthy Yùn is capable of penetrating enemy airspace while delivering a squad of battle armor to any target point.
  This is the first time I’ve ever heard that the Troika had anything to do with troop-drops, but there was certainly room for that to have changed in the three-score years between the close of the Jihad and the opening of the current era.  [shrug]  Regardless, the Capellan Confederation is not the least ashamed of its enduring reputation for taking ‘oblique approaches’ to military advantage, rather than the classic force-on-force match-up, and the Yùn is another brick in building that tradition.  Most forces deploy battle-armour with VTOLs, or deep-strike spec-ops troops with shuttles; whatever else it may be, the CCAF certainly is not ‘most forces’.  So what do they get for the job?  An aerospace fighter.

  Now, troop-delivery is not an operational tasking that requires high combat-performance (I’ll discuss that below), so the forty-ton Yùn mounts a 120SFE to develop a relatively modest 5/8 thrust curve off five tons of fuel - nothing to write home about for its weight-class, but certainly good enough for the atmospheric/sub-orbital hops and short-range dashes that its designed purpose requires.  Eight-point-five tons of stealth(!) armour provide a 43/34/25 profile that is vulnerable to thresholding crit-checks from medium lasers (and other five-point clusters) across all but its nose; that’s not great, but the stealth modifiers do cut down on the effective fire you’re likely to take, and let’s face it, if a Yùn is taking concentrated fire while attempting to deliver its ‘precious cargo’ of commandos, UR DOIN IT WRONG.  The heat-burden of the stealth armour requires a little respect, so the designers included twelve DHS to cover that and the defensive armament - an ERML and twin Streak-6 launchers in the nose, backed by a ton of ammunition each.  The stealth armour requires an EW suite of some sort, so the aft-mounted GECM is no real surprise, and finally, the reason for the Yùn’s existence: a four-ton cargo/infantry compartment, room enough for a full squad of light or medium battle-armour, like the nasty, vicious Amazon suits which also debuted in this TRO installment. }:)

  If and when you get ahold of TRO3145:CCAF yourself, pay close attention to the Deployment and Notable Pilots section.  During the Battle of New Syrtis, Warrior House Hiritsu used two full squadrons of Yùns for a coup-de-main attack on a key defensive position, dropping their troops directly on AFFS gun-positions, then returning to TAG key targets for guided artillery and missile-fire from the CCAF siege-lines and to immobilise defending vehicles with salvoes of SSRMs.  On Talcott, Sao-shao Amy Yao was so determined to get her passengers exactly where they needed to go that she flew into the target building and breached an interior wall with her missiles before she dropped them off, giving them a near-direct run at their objective.  :o
  I’m not saying that every hop by a Yùn needs to be so, um, audacious in reaching optimal DZs, but this is a platform for delivering troops to key targets, not mixing it up with fighters lovingly designed for air-superiority missions.  The design compromises that go with making an ASF capable of delivering battle-armour decently well mean that the Y-2 is too slow, too thinly-armoured, and frankly too under-armed for that kind of nonsense.  Yùn contingents need to be routed far clear of meaningful opposition and enemy fighters kept busy by your own so the Y-2s can complete their missions unmolested, letting their BA squads hit the targets that will turn the ground-campaign your way.  Remember the fundamentals, and all that.
  Matters don't get much better when you look at the Yùn’s external warload capacity: eight ‘slots’ of ordnance at 3/5 is just too slow for safety in the age of XLFE- and XXLFE-powered starfighters, and there are far better (and cheaper!) platforms for delivering such ordnance, like the Katya.  I wouldn’t even recommend carrying a couple of Light AAMs for self-defence, because if the airspace is likely to be contested to the degree that you need them in the first place, you should be taking along escorts that are carrying them (and even more weaponry) for you.  The Yùn is essentially an intra-system bus for the black-ops jokers; its drivers need to stick to what they do best and leave the ‘hero’ shit for the jokers with the big watches, straight teeth, and crooked grins.  ::)

  Conversely, if you can get a couple of flights of intereceptors or dogfighters past the escorts and amongst a gaggle of Yùns on their way to their targets, those zoomies are going to have a high old time, like the ‘Stuka parties’ of WW2: the Yùn is too slow to outrun anything, too frail to stand up to heavy fire (even spamming MLs or ERMLs from the stern-quarter will break a lot of things), and its passengers are too specialised and valuable to the other side’s battle-plan to be present in large numbers.  Smoking a Y-2 loaded with Death Commandos or Warrior House spec-ops troopers is a relatively easy task that takes some pretty significant and rare SF manpower out of the CCAF’s Order of Battle.
  From the ground-forces perspective, surrounding likely targets with a ring or two of Partisans or similar will do a lot to discourage repeats of the New Syrtis or Talcott incident noted above.  Using the threat of ‘lawn-dart’ checks to force Yùn-deployed BA to approach their targets overland, rather than dropping directly ont heir targets, will make the ground-defence’s job of deterring or killing them a great deal easier.

  Again, being that the ship is so new to canon and so near-optimal for what it’s intended to do, I shan’t mess with it, but I’m going to create a Workshop for other people who just can’t resist the temptation to fiddle with things.  If you do break out the drawing-board and calculator, let us know how your ‘better’ version works out in play!

  All proposed fan-variants belong in the corresponding “FotW Workshop” thread: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,29681.0.html

glitterboy2098

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2013, 03:48:49 »
sound to me that the cappies heard about the Ghost Bear's Kirghiz Charlie, and decided "why build something to brute force its way into enemy territory when you can slip in unnoticed?"

Maelwys

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2013, 03:58:32 »
Just a small note, the Troika mentioned in the writeup of the Yùn is the CMT-6T. It has the same 4 ton infantry compartment as the Yùn, but retains the armor and speed of the older Troikas. The weaponry on the CMT-6T seems to indicate that once the BA were dropped off, the Troika was meant to stick around and destroy any problems the BA couldn't handle themselves: a nose-mounted heavy PPC backed by 3 small VSPs in each wing give the CMT-6T a pretty hefty strafing capability. The RL10 in the nose and wings seem like an afterthought.

I wonder if the BA pilots prefer the heavier and faster Troika that everyone can see coming, or the lighter, slower, but stealthier Yùn.

SCC

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2013, 04:04:31 »
Please tell me that that cargo bay has the bomb bay quirk, because with stealth armor it sounds like this would be a great bomber

Weirdo

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #4 on: 23 May 2013, 09:32:33 »
Please tell me that that cargo bay has the bomb bay quirk, because with stealth armor it sounds like this would be a great bomber

It does not, only Easy to Pilot.

Even if it did, it would be a HORRIBLE bomber. Slow, light warload, extremely limited air-to-air abilities...it'd be like an F-117, only without the real-world stealthing that made that design useful. Remember, BT stealth does not render you invisible(or nearly so) like modern stealth systems do. If a Yùn is coming your way and you have even the most basic of sensors available, you know it. You'd be better off sticking with Saroyans for that role, or a larger/faster ASF if warload is your quest.

Now as a CAS unit during the dropoff, the Y-2 doesn't look half bad. Remember that both TW and SO rules allow you to fire weapons in the same turn as you drop troops, so emptying a salvo or two of SRMs into whatever target the infantry are about to be assaulting is definitely a good idea. Heck, if things like up right, I could see a Y-2 pilot dropping troops directly on an AA unit while firing his missiles into the sides or back of any dedicated anti-infantry unit present. NOE approaches would definitely be advised here.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2013, 09:38:11 by Weirdo »
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misterpants

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #5 on: 23 May 2013, 14:28:05 »
How important is a high acceleration curve for these kinds of insertions? My first impulse was to wonder why not a higher rated XL engine.
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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #6 on: 23 May 2013, 14:39:52 »
Unless the interceptors are behind you at a great distance and off to a side, or the insertion simply cannot wait that extra twenty seconds, not terribly important. It doesn't affect any drop rolls(even if dropping conventional troops while flying supersonic :o), doesn't affect AA fire except in StratOps rules, and fighters ahead of you are going to get a shot at you anyway. Thrust reserves are very good when you want to carry bombs, dogfight, or travel extremely fast on the Abstract Radar Map(and I doubt any kind of XL would get a Y-2 fast enough for that last part).

I'm thinking that this has a standard engine for the same reason as the Gun. It seems to me like the Confederation completely revamped their infantry forces during the Republic era(both in terms of doctrine and equipment), and if they wanted to support these hordes of BA properly, they needed stuff cheap enough to supply them to just about every regiment in the Confederation. Honestly, between all the cool infantry support stuff they got in this TRO(not to mention the suits themselves), I'm thinking that modern Liao battlesuit formations are damned scary beasts.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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Jellico

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #7 on: 23 May 2013, 19:14:26 »
Please tell me that that cargo bay has the bomb bay quirk, because with stealth armor it sounds like this would be a great bomber
It is an Infantry Compartment, not a Cargo Bay or even an Infantry Bay. Small words matter

Kojak

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #8 on: 23 May 2013, 19:52:18 »
Where are the rules on dropping infantry from ASFs found? I feel like I can't properly evaluate the Yùn for myself until I've read them.
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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #9 on: 23 May 2013, 20:23:46 »

Even if it did, it would be a HORRIBLE bomber. Slow, light warload, extremely limited air-to-air abilities...it'd be like an F-117, only without the real-world stealthing that made that design useful. Remember, BT stealth does not render you invisible(or nearly so) like modern stealth systems do. If a Yùn is coming your way and you have even the most basic of sensors available, you know it. You'd be better off sticking with Saroyans for that role, or a larger/faster ASF if warload is your quest.


You might as well hang a sign around your wings saying "shot me, I'm a flying brick". Weirdo is right, this thing would be an awful bomber.

As troop deployer/extractor that gets you in under the nose of the enemy it works well.

Can't wait to deploy some hordes of SF troops - be they Mask teams, Death Commandoes or even the CCAF battlefield infiltration teams.
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SCC

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #10 on: 23 May 2013, 21:18:24 »
Sorry, when I said bomber I was thinking anti-shipping, between it's natural racks and the possible bomb bay the Yun can carry 3 anti-shipping missile, that's 90 points of damage, fairly nasty

A. Lurker

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #11 on: 24 May 2013, 05:46:20 »
Where are the rules on dropping infantry from ASFs found? I feel like I can't properly evaluate the Yùn for myself until I've read them.

Those would probably be the "Dropping Troops" rules starting on StratOps p. 22. The "Dismounting from Aerospace Carriers" rules on TW p. 225 won't work because under them ASFs just can't do it (only conventional fighters and fixed-wing and airship support vees need apply).

Coldwyn

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #12 on: 24 May 2013, 05:56:37 »
The Yùn/Fah Shih mix looks promissing, too. In any kind of scenario where a retreat/fall back is a viable option, that could sour your day.
it´s not necessarily that i´m immoral of character, i just don´t take great stock in the morality of others, that´s all

sillybrit

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #13 on: 24 May 2013, 15:59:33 »
The "Dismounting from Aerospace Carriers" rules on TW p. 225 won't work because under them ASFs just can't do it (only conventional fighters and fixed-wing and airship support vees need apply).

That was errataed. See here, where ASFs are added to the allowable units.

A. Lurker

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #14 on: 24 May 2013, 16:50:42 »
That was errataed. See here, where ASFs are added to the allowable units.

Hmmm, I see. That doesn't seem to have made it into the actual errata document (including the most recent draft for 4.0 I got) yet, so I missed it.

Fair enough. Carry on, then. :)

Maelwys

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #15 on: 24 May 2013, 17:42:48 »
Isn't the sentence that's being errata'd on page 225 and not 226?

So it looks to be you either drop them off with no MP cost in your ending hex if you're using the aerospace on the ground mapsheet rule, or you drop them off in hex 0909 if you're using the low altitude map.

A. Lurker

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #16 on: 25 May 2013, 03:36:28 »
Isn't the sentence that's being errata'd on page 225 and not 226?

So it looks to be you either drop them off with no MP cost in your ending hex if you're using the aerospace on the ground mapsheet rule, or you drop them off in hex 0909 if you're using the low altitude map.

The whole "Dismounting From Aerospace Carriers" rules text is on page 225, page 226 only has example text. So per errata you simply drop them in any hex along your flight path at no MP cost -- the whole "hex 0909" thing seems to be going the way of the dodo, and I can't say I'll necessarily miss it --, with jump infantry landing on the ground and VTOL-capable troopers starting at elevation 8. (I'm a bit fuzzy on whether that's supposed to be "absolute" or "relative" elevation at the moment, mind.) As usual dropped infantry is attacked as though it had moved 0 hexes that turn, +1 for jumping/VTOL movement.

chanman

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #17 on: 25 May 2013, 17:06:10 »
Not a huge fan of this tack myself (dropping infantry from fighters) from a suspension of disbelief standpoint and the disturbance it causes to the historical use of dropships for deploying drop infantry. I would have rather had the Kirghiz noted as an exception and exceptionally risky where only a few nutjob clanners are gung-ho enough to try it. The reason should be fairly obvious - The Kirghiz is an omnifighter and has one configuration that can carry 5 troops. However, if you were say... Zeta Galaxy or a similar BA-heavy formation, the possibilities for using omnifighters to deploy entire stars of Elementals should be obvious. Plus the BA carrier omnifighters make a much smaller and less obvious target than a dropship and blends right in with the rest of its escort. Fighter sweep/armed recce suddenly turns into surprise paratrooper assault!  :)

A. Lurker

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #18 on: 25 May 2013, 17:33:20 »
Well, let's be fair: for all that we call them fighters, purely mass-wise ASFs do comfortably go up all the way into what we'd consider at least the smaller passenger and transport aircraft range. (They could, of course, be denser and more compact and thus pack that mass into a smaller frame, but BattleTech construction has always kind of erred in the opposite direction with 'Mechs that should by rights be able to float and large spacecraft that are basically balloons.) Most just have no cargo space to speak of because it all gets stuffed with weapons and other equipment already -- not because a designer couldn't find the room inside that hull. :)

chanman

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #19 on: 25 May 2013, 18:00:09 »
Well, let's be fair: for all that we call them fighters, purely mass-wise ASFs do comfortably go up all the way into what we'd consider at least the smaller passenger and transport aircraft range. (They could, of course, be denser and more compact and thus pack that mass into a smaller frame, but BattleTech construction has always kind of erred in the opposite direction with 'Mechs that should by rights be able to float and large spacecraft that are basically balloons.) Most just have no cargo space to speak of because it all gets stuffed with weapons and other equipment already -- not because a designer couldn't find the room inside that hull. :)

I'm just saying a single Tatsu can carry 5 squads of Void BA on only half its podspace if the concept holds. Is that a lot of eggs in one basket? Sure, but no worse than say a Vampire, and it's a much less conspicuous basket. It's a can of worms that's been dormant for a while on account of being a bit of an OOC historical curiosity, but the Yùn prys that can the rest of the way open.

Also, the stealth armour is kind of neat and helps differentiate it from the Defiance  :)

Jellico

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #20 on: 26 May 2013, 07:49:53 »
Because no one said pod space was human shaped.

A. Lurker

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #21 on: 26 May 2013, 08:05:20 »
Because no one said pod space was human shaped.

Then again, no one said it wasn't, either. ;) Really, pod space must have such an amazingly flexible geometry to just accommodate everything that could potentially be stuffed into there that the occasional case of "live cargo" isn't much of a stretch anymore.

We're getting a bit off topic from the Yùn proper, though.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #101 - Y-2 Yùn
« Reply #22 on: 18 July 2013, 17:05:38 »
Weight and volume don't quite go logically together in BT. We just have to accept it.
Just too enjoy the whole concept of "mechs" I need to stretch my suspension of disbelief wide enough that fighters dropping a platton of Infantry doesn't seem to bad.
I mean, you have troop carriers that can carry a squad of Assault BA, or like 90 people.
You can't tell me those 90 people and the 4-6 guys in powered body armour take the same space and air conditioning.
They have the same weight, and that is literally all.
In game, I'd get along with it, strategically, I wouldn't want to pack a company of infantry in a few hovercrafts that probably fit in a garage a single one of those Infantry men would use for his car.
Can't be good for combat readiness.
Edit: Sorry, I kinda missed the date. After 2 months, this isn't relevant in any case. Someone may delete it.
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