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Off Topic and Technical Support => Off Topic => Topic started by: Failure16 on 02 September 2023, 19:08:05

Title: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 02 September 2023, 19:08:05
Because I rarely start thread, I took this one by the nose.

Behold, the mighty, LTV A-7 Corsair II...

(https://www.airhistory.net/photos/0339870.jpg?m=1614378941)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/33/19/ce/3319cef64abf07c95ff6f22f8a2f6e27.jpg)
(https://www.aircraftinformation.info/Images/A-7_02.jpg)
(https://i1.wp.com/www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/A-7-DS-warpaint.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0a/76/ac/0a76acfb2bcd1536e3a8c767f097af9d.jpg[img]
[img width=800]https://cdn10.picryl.com/photo/1981/09/19/an-air-to-air-right-side-view-of-an-a-7d-corsair-ii-aircraft-from-the-arizona-a8a565-1600.jpg)
(https://picfiles.alphacoders.com/260/260018.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/88/9d/53/889d53b1c8099984bc308986ceaae703.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/HAF-Special-head-on.jpg?resize=678%2C381&ssl=1)
(https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/TA-7-Camo-Aviano-Jul-2014.jpg)
(http://cdn.globalaircraft.org/media/img/planes/lowres/a-7_4.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/04/89/2f/04892fdabc19cc7ccf48e7c4c519b08c--posts-military-aircraft.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/24/a2/f9/24a2f9b854de9da3577682f0924e6af3.jpg)

More great images here:

http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?15846 (http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?15846)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 02 September 2023, 19:13:24
The start of the aircraft carrying the Corsair name was this stately gem:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Vought_O2U.jpg)
(https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-96000/NH-96045/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1460021127603.jpg)
(https://aerocorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Vought-O2U-4-Corsair-on-water..jpg)

Things sure did change, did they not?

More info here (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/NARG/narcrecon_O2U_corsair.html)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 September 2023, 21:16:15
The SLUF is such a cute little aircraft, I love it so.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: mikecj on 02 September 2023, 21:32:36
I love the Corsair- both models!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 September 2023, 00:46:45
tagging in
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 September 2023, 01:57:19
I have to admit, I always feel a bit nervous seeing an aircraft with a big air intake in that position.  Always looks like it's perfectly located for eating ground crew.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 03 September 2023, 03:00:42
Any intake, really...

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=672495413946583 (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=672495413946583)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 September 2023, 04:27:14
As I recall, that guy survived.  Others have been not so fortunate.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 03 September 2023, 05:00:31
A-7 Tanking up an F-8:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/6f/4d/8c6f4d7a9ec79d92f66ebca84cdceb04.jpg)

Navy F-8s typically only flew air-to-air missions with clean wings and fuselage Sidewinders
(http://www.airvectors.net/avcrus_2_02.jpg)

The USMC supposedly employed them much more in strike missions and I wonder how much influence that had on the A-7
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f1/ba/e8/f1bae82dde58eecb45757515a742f05a.jpg)

Prototype F-8 in formation with an F7U Cutlass
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e0/93/c9/e093c964796ecf0c54f2bb68e7681962.jpg)

French navy F-8 in their spiffy blue-grey colours.
(http://www.airvectors.net/avcrus_2_06.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 September 2023, 05:29:18
The tanking picture isn't coming through for me for some reason... ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 September 2023, 11:19:21
The tanking picture isn't coming through for me for some reason... ???
Try Here (https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fe8fyvjwtzo731.jpg)

and then here are 2 F18 (I think) topping off the tanks from a C130
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/refueling-plane-5418541.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 September 2023, 11:57:45
The external link worked, thanks! :)

As for the other image, I only see a single vertical stabilizer, but a second COULD be behind it on all three fighter aircraft... ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: David CGB on 03 September 2023, 20:10:43
nice
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 04 September 2023, 01:34:13
The external link worked, thanks! :)

As for the other image, I only see a single vertical stabilizer, but a second COULD be behind it on all three fighter aircraft... ???

Those are Hornets. The second vertical stabilizer is obscured by the wing from that angle.

Also fixed the A-7 tanking up the F-8 link
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 September 2023, 02:06:27
Yeah, you can tell they're Bugs from the LEX in front of the wing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 04 September 2023, 04:29:02
Working now, thanks Chanman! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 September 2023, 18:33:00
Russia is covering its Tu-95 and Tu-160 bombers at Engles Air Base with car tires to protect them from drone attack.    :laugh:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5GTX6-XwAAUFQ7?format=webp&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 September 2023, 18:55:20
So how effective is that?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 04 September 2023, 19:07:38
I'm sure the Ukrainians will let us know soon enough... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 04 September 2023, 20:31:58
Wouldn't it be ultimately quicker to simply erect a tent over the damn things? Sure, you could kamikaze in on a tent, but I imagine the drones are likely point-engagement vice area-effect systems--and even a circus tent would be cheaper than an out-of-production heavy bomber. Just thinking covering strategic bombers in tires has to be time consuming, fraught with difficulties and potential for error, and just plain onerous for the ground crews that should arguably doing more important things.

But, as Daryk says, we should get some kind of hotwash about their efficacy sooner than later.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 September 2023, 22:03:00
Given what I've heard in the last year and a half, Russia's military probably doesn't have any surplus tents they could use for that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 04 September 2023, 22:14:40
More tents than manpower, maybe...


And, pictures.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/14/6d/23146d53006f9221de60e86b1e45a780.jpg)

In Soviet Russia, Bear chooses which refueling drogue to tank from!

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 September 2023, 02:22:48
Wouldn't it be ultimately quicker to simply erect a tent over the damn things? Sure, you could kamikaze in on a tent, but I imagine the drones are likely point-engagement vice area-effect systems--and even a circus tent would be cheaper than an out-of-production heavy bomber. Just thinking covering strategic bombers in tires has to be time consuming, fraught with difficulties and potential for error, and just plain onerous for the ground crews that should arguably doing more important things.

But, as Daryk says, we should get some kind of hotwash about their efficacy sooner than later.
Tents wouldn't offer much protection. they'd provide visual concealment, but i'm fairly certain that the intent with the tires is armor. the light drones that have been used to strike at the bombers recently carry a payload little more than a couple grenades or a light mortar round. the drones being used have mostly been higher end small quad-copters you can buy on the open market, with some new fittings for carrying and dropping a payload. but their payload mass is pretty small. which means its mostly HE, and impact fused. so a thick layer of dense rubber like tired will help limit the damage the plane takes from the blast.. might even prevent the impact fuses from triggering, since if th bomb is dropped it has to be dropped from a very low altitude to ensure it hits, meaning it won't be moving very fast when it hits. and if the payload is rigged as a kamikazi drone, that layer of tires is going to make it hard to get a good strike on the skin of the aircraft, which is what is going to give you the best chance of destroying it.

that said, i'm sure that ukraine will just find a way to send a heavier weapon that bomber's way instead. they've been fairly creative about that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: phoenixalpha on 05 September 2023, 02:26:48
Surely from the placement of those tires and the accuracy of a drone, hitting the tail section or engine of those bombers is well within capabilities. Losing a tail or an engine would be as much of a mission kill as taking it out entirely.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 05 September 2023, 03:14:13
See also "cope cages" - when there's nothing you can do, do something, even if it means nothing
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 05 September 2023, 07:23:20
Unlike tires, at least cope cages aren't flammable.   
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 05 September 2023, 19:02:13
Two-seat Northrops. F-5Bs, T-38s, F-5Fs. Interesting that there seems to be some variation in the nose profile. The F-5B dumps the guns and uses some of the space for the forward cockpit, in the way of early two-seat MiG-29UBs.

Canadian CF-116D's
(https://imgur.com/l52hWZ7.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/XYb1eyw.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/UU5NLmI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/pJxIIyH.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/l7oLMKO.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/EE0Hmu5.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/5qsD3qQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/wqUKmOK.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vlL29JL.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/PoOB1Ir.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/REOtMd3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/GlO8yoB.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Lngm7U3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Ts9j1oz.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/LKfnfy3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/kqWbS78.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ARYR6wc.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/pscozLZ.jpg)

T-38s - note the oval vs. D-shaped inlets
(https://imgur.com/B9etrBw.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rZhTjjD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/G6DzSLf.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/zQMVmhr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/pZksGws.jpg)

Other F-5Bs
(https://imgur.com/NAk4e0Q.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/uQppX5q.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/3VY57De.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vDnUutD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/PRRw1jQ.jpg)

F-5F Tiger IIs - longer nose with the guns
(https://imgur.com/Q1SALxI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/RUeAZIm.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/SDuYFIi.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QhJlLTr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/E1e8aZY.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/mcNmmsp.jpg)

CF-116A Freedom Fighter gun bays
(https://imgur.com/hoM0SHT.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/8K8sUea.jpg)

CF-116A Freedom Fighter aggressors
(https://imgur.com/kDRTw1V.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 05 September 2023, 19:13:45
What could of been with the F-20 Tigershark.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 05 September 2023, 20:21:01
What could of been with the F-20 Tigershark.

At the end of the day, a tarted-up F-5 is still a tarted-up F-5. The F404 has better fuel specific fuel consumption, but that gets eaten up if the extra thrust is taken advantage of.

The F-20 gets a larger horizontal stabilizer, a larger LERX, and a new radar but the rest of the F-5's limitations are present - low fuel capacity/endurance, limited wing clearance for weapons loading, radar limited by the size of the antennae dictated by the nose dimensions, and 1960's aerodynamics. Some of which might have been mitigated by making more substantial changes, like the way the J-7E and later replaced the original MiG-21's delta wing with a cranked delta with better low-speed handling and way more internal-tankage volume.

Northrop's real step forward was the YF-17, and the Tigershark was a poor consolation prize after McDonnell Douglas took over the Hornet project.

The thing that's always puzzled me is the $1.2 billion USD pricetag attached to the project (back when that was actually a lot of money). It sure didn't seem to go into new engineering, so I wonder how much ended up as marketing/sales/lobbying spend and how much was maybe disguised spending from (literal) stealth projects like Tacit Blue, B-2, and YF-23.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 05 September 2023, 21:58:32
Tents wouldn't offer much protection. they'd provide visual concealment, but i'm fairly certain that the intent with the tires is armor. the light drones that have been used to strike at the bombers recently carry a payload little more than a couple grenades or a light mortar round. the drones being used have mostly been higher end small quad-copters you can buy on the open market, with some new fittings for carrying and dropping a payload. but their payload mass is pretty small. which means its mostly HE, and impact fused. so a thick layer of dense rubber like tired will help limit the damage the plane takes from the blast.. might even prevent the impact fuses from triggering, since if th bomb is dropped it has to be dropped from a very low altitude to ensure it hits, meaning it won't be moving very fast when it hits. and if the payload is rigged as a kamikazi drone, that layer of tires is going to make it hard to get a good strike on the skin of the aircraft, which is what is going to give you the best chance of destroying it.

that said, i'm sure that ukraine will just find a way to send a heavier weapon that bomber's way instead. they've been fairly creative about that.

Three things:

A tent would indeed offer only concealment, which, if the payload is indeed small enough, will prevent a direct and meaningful point-strike providing an infinitely better defense.

Grenades and light mortar rounds--very close to the same thing in their final effects--are not world-destroying weapons like movies would have the public believe. But they are also damaging enough that a covering of rubber measured in inches or millimeters will provide scant protection. If the tires are armor, I'd rather have sandbags. Grenades are generally lethal within five meters or so and the skin of an aircraft isn't much better than the skin of a human when it comes right down to it.

The tires only cover the upper wings and portions of the fuselage. There are plenty of areas that remain uncovered that would still lead to the airframe being damaged enough that it would be non-mission-capable in the event of a successful strike. A strike where the drone bodily impacts the target is probably unlikely to come in at a terminal, vertical dive so recreating a Michelin tire sale on a bomber's wings and central dorsal fuselage does nothing to protect every other aspect of the resulting target profile.

Naw. I still contend that putting the aircraft in revetments with a cover to prevent direct observation would be more efficacious than putting hundreds of tires on part of the plane. Or, you know, investing in some low-tech IADS for your airfields. That might work better, too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 September 2023, 04:46:07
In a newspaper report, I did see a theory that it's meant to break up the shape of the plane from automated shape-sensing algorithms that may be being used for drone targetting. The same article mentioned at least one of the covered airframes was currently lacking propellors, so there may be some decoy use going on?

But also considering the "cardboard" drones - more like flat-pack, waterproofed foamcore, and made here in Australia - are operated, not autonomous, this may be intended against some other perceived threat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 06 September 2023, 04:51:52
It might just be a simple case of "taking what you have available". (Very) large pieces of canvas or loads of sandbags might be hard to find while there's a scrapyard with acres of used-up tires next door.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 06 September 2023, 19:43:05
In a newspaper report, I did see a theory that it's meant to break up the shape of the plane from automated shape-sensing algorithms that may be being used for drone targetting. The same article mentioned at least one of the covered airframes was currently lacking propellors, so there may be some decoy use going on?

But also considering the "cardboard" drones - more like flat-pack, waterproofed foamcore, and made here in Australia - are operated, not autonomous, this may be intended against some other perceived threat.

Noted...but the tires being confined to the wings and central fuselage make it seem unlikely any algorithms would be fooled. The human eye certainly is not, and we are (one presumes) laypersons in this regard here.

It might just be a simple case of "taking what you have available". (Very) large pieces of canvas or loads of sandbags might be hard to find while there's a scrapyard with acres of used-up tires next door.

Perhaps. But, in war, sometimes a stopgap measure is worse than nothing at all, because it is a waste of time, the materials being used, and lulls you into a false sense of security. Kind of like taking technicals up against a motivated, well trained military force. They merely exist to get your soldiery used up faster than if they were simply light infantry.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 September 2023, 20:22:57
That seems to be the Russian SOP at the moment though ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 06 September 2023, 21:11:28
Touché.

But I am neither surprised nor saddened by all of that, though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 06 September 2023, 21:33:07
Turns out Jimmy Buffet anonymously donated two of his WWII vintage aircraft, a Grumman Goose and Stearman, to a museum last year:

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/cQ72G_w0UrKSkGTnpLAmiw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTI0MDA7aD0xODAwO2NmPXdlYnA-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/we_are_the_mighty_690/e195f246ea4071b0123a9e5cc66409c3)

Read more here (https://www.yahoo.com/news/jimmy-buffett-donated-two-wwii-214940761.html).

Quite a character and gentleman when it all came down to it. Fair seas and following winds, good sir...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 07 September 2023, 03:17:03
I had no idea he even HAD WWII vintage aircraft...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 07 September 2023, 12:15:35
I had no idea he even HAD WWII vintage aircraft...

at one time, when you and I were little kids, WWII vintage aircraft were actually something of a bargain in the aircraft market.  (This would be before the Billionaires weighed in to the collecting market, y'all).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 07 September 2023, 13:13:29
In what probably isn't surprising news to anyone given the fires this year, order books for water bombers are filling up. DeHavilland Canada has an interesting history - they're not the original company, which was acquired by Boeing in 1986 and then sold to Bombardier in 1992 and effectively disappeared.

Viking Air (a major parts supplier) bought the type certificates for defunct models in the mid-2000s and started making new Twin Otters. The parent company of Viking Air recently bought the Dash 8/Q400 project/type certificates and the DeHavilland Canada trademarks from Bombardier and has rebranded under that name.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/water-bombers-de-havilland-canada-1.6958748

Dangerous work. I think there's been a number of fatal accidents with water bombers and fire fighting aircraft in general this year.

The original piston-powered CL-215
(https://imgur.com/Rae9dEQ.jpg)

CL-215T Turboprop refit
(https://imgur.com/FyE288d.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/7N6HpKU.jpg)

CL-415/515/DHC-515
(https://imgur.com/Kwh1oXO.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/2MOt83p.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/r4UCDkr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/5wWDyFD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/UJ7gKY3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/w7oJEbr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/7m6RO9M.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 07 September 2023, 17:04:19
Fantastic shots of those water bombers! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 08 September 2023, 21:28:37
Agreed, a great collection of shots for some hard-working planes and aircrews!



Like leprosy, the infection continues to spread (https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1700083418900340826?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1700083418900340826%7Ctwgr%5E3b8f59ad614cba0e27346ff629d7dffefe48408a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fphoto-russia-su-34-fighter-bomber-covered-with-tires-2023-9)...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5fo3B3WYAAPyAj?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 08 September 2023, 21:46:39
The fact they've hung tires on the end of the wingtip tubes suggests silhouette-breaking. But still not convinced.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 08 September 2023, 23:38:42
Yep. Because no algorithm looking for SU-34s (of Flanker-family friends) would possibly be looking for the shapes of the actual airframes, because the tires are really not doing anything to change that at all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 September 2023, 03:09:53
Yep. Because no algorithm looking for SU-34s (of Flanker-family friends) would possibly be looking for the shapes of the actual airframes, because the tires are really not doing anything to change that at all.

Maybe someone got really badly gaslit. Assuming that's not the case though, that presumably means they've done a technical analysis of the remains of attacking drones/have intelligence sources about how the drones or cruise missiles do terminal guidance.

It's not going to fool the operator of a quadcopter, but munitions aren't exactly high-powered computing devices and image recognition is still a complex and computationally expensive task.

Seems like the tires might mess up a contrast seeker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_seeker), and due to the different materials relative to the aircraft, it might even work on IR systems as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 09 September 2023, 09:11:14
At least the guy selling the tires is making some money... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 09 September 2023, 12:30:41
At this point, I'm surprised they aren't simply selling the Flankers. Make profit, not war, kind of thing. But I guess the SU-34 et als are doing better than the SU-25s (or even KA-52s).*



*Which is something the die-hard A-10 fanboys should be paying attention to, at least in broad strokes. And yes, I am ignoring counterarguments about the A-10's relative toughness because even their airframe can only take so much abuse before the aircraft quits being operational--regardless of if it got the pilot back to base or not. That last bit is very important for a variety of reasons (from moral to even strategic if taken in a long enough view), but it is not a compelling argument for a force with a restricted number of a given type, and that includes the mighty USAF/N/MC. This isn't WWII, where you just get another P- or F-Whatever shipped to you or taken out of stores.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 09 September 2023, 12:57:41
Task and Purpose has a good video about the A-10's imminent retirement... sad to say he makes a lot of sense...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 September 2023, 14:10:37
What are the odds of a replacement aircraft that packs the GAU-8 being built?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 09 September 2023, 16:16:26
Loitering somewhere around zero, probably. But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 09 September 2023, 16:34:40
After watching the Task and Purpose video, definitely zero.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 09 September 2023, 18:06:38
Loitering somewhere around zero, probably. But I could be wrong.

The Air Force doesn't really LIKE or WANT the CAS role, they want the funding and manning, but they've never wanted the role.

so yeah, probably another boom-and-zoomie more designed to fight other fighters than a low-end tactical bomber meant to hang around below 30,000 feet.

After all, "Stealthy supersawnics" are sexier.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 September 2023, 18:26:39
What are the odds of a replacement aircraft that packs the GAU-8 being built?

Maybe they'll stick the GAU-8 in a new AC-130 variant, but barring that, not unless someone's figured out a way to give a gun more range than SHORAD missiles.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 September 2023, 18:44:43
At this point, I'm surprised they aren't simply selling the Flankers. Make profit, not war, kind of thing. But I guess the SU-34 et als are doing better than the SU-25s (or even KA-52s).*



*Which is something the die-hard A-10 fanboys should be paying attention to, at least in broad strokes. And yes, I am ignoring counterarguments about the A-10's relative toughness because even their airframe can only take so much abuse before the aircraft quits being operational--regardless of if it got the pilot back to base or not. That last bit is very important for a variety of reasons (from moral to even strategic if taken in a long enough view), but it is not a compelling argument for a force with a restricted number of a given type, and that includes the mighty USAF/N/MC. This isn't WWII, where you just get another P- or F-Whatever shipped to you or taken out of stores.

There were a number of Su-35 deals in negotiations that were scuppered by the war. (Egypt, Indonesia) and interest/more tentative discussions with the UAE, Algeria, and possibly Iran. Part of the issue is that embargoes both make it harder for the Russians to make them and for them to be paid for the sales.

As for the Su-34, there's probably a combination of cost (they're ungodly expensive) and Russian reluctance to sell some of the EW gear (lest details be leaked) coupled with being an unusual capability (very long range strike) that isn't in high demand elsewhere or can't just be handled by the Su-30 or Su-35.

I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that they may fly a little funny. They're about 50% heavier than the other Flankers, with the bigger crew cabin, but still use roughly the same engines and wings.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 09 September 2023, 19:46:34
The Air Force doesn't really LIKE or WANT the CAS role, they want the funding and manning, but they've never wanted the role.

so yeah, probably another boom-and-zoomie more designed to fight other fighters than a low-end tactical bomber meant to hang around below 30,000 feet.

After all, "Stealthy supersawnics" are sexier.

Those boom-and-zoomies are what has been doing the majority of CAS over the last twenty years. And those USAF arrowheads have been doing a lot of that CAS, too. They have found ways to make strategic bombers and even transport planes CAS platforms (in their own fashion). I am no USAF apologist, but to say that portion of the US DOD doesn't want to do what they have been doing almost to the exclusion of what they are being blamed for wanting to do is...ridiculous.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't have a low-end to go with our high-end, but the A-10 isn't the answer for 2024+--and it was even acknowledged that in 1985, it would have been a heavily armored coffin if things had gotten real.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 09 September 2023, 22:26:30
What are the odds of a replacement aircraft that packs the GAU-8 being built?
My guess is near 0..  while I love the A10 and the upgrade, it is not designed to survive in airspace that is heavy contested.  However the changing to a standoff weapon Truck, might allow it to stay in the fleet, but...
a year ago, they talked about how the USAF was trying to kill it.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/04/28/a-10-official-issues-warning-over-air-forces-devastated-warthog-fleet/ (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/04/28/a-10-official-issues-warning-over-air-forces-devastated-warthog-fleet/)
The non retired birds need to be fully upgrade to survive the new threats

That being said, the F35 pilots "to replace A10" are not even doing CAS training mission in 2023 or 2024.  Nor will any F35 be regularly doing true CAS, because it to fast, not having enough weapons, not sure it has redundancy systems like the A-10.

And how long did the A-1 Skyraider stay in servive - 30 years before the USAF retired them by handing them off to RVNAF.   They could have kept them, but CAS mission.  Now my question is if the USAF doesn't want them, could the USMC take them over?

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 01:41:48
It has to be able to take off and land on a carrier to work its way into USMC Aviation. And they are going towards a F-35-pure fixed-wing force anyway. So, no. Not saying I agree with the F-35-pure MAWs, but there it is.

Why did the USAF stop using the A-1? The same reasons the USN did, one imagines.

By the time they stopped, the youngest airframes were nearing the twenty-year mark. There were other planes that could do the job of delivering ordnance to the ground. Those planes could get to the operational area faster and work synergistically with the rest of the strike package and the constraints of the friendly airfield (be they traditional ones or carriers on-station somewhere). And the USAF in particular already had a newer model of the A-1 coming on-line within a few years. It was called the A-10.

You know, for that CAS mission the zoomies don't want and never do.

It is interesting that the USAF gets so much grief for not wanting to do CAS, and that the A-10 is the absolute bestest airframe to do it in living memory, but no one says anything to the USN or USMC who do CAS all the time (the latter, inarguably, being known for it) and have never flown A-10s so far as I know (I mean even an active-duty test pilot here, not in an operational squadron).

For those interested, the article that DOC is likely referring to (almost verbatim) can be found here (https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2023/02/documents-show-air-force-leaders-shirking-their-close-air-support-responsibilities). From what I can tell, its central theme is based on this memorandum  (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23575202-f-35a-read-aircrew-program-tasking-memorandum-aviation-schedule-2023-2024#document/p6/a2196393)that, while interesting, is mostly redacted, with the notable exception of a chart detailing mission/task training hours, where the CAS line is blank (but SEAD, for example, is not).

Statements to the contrary notwithstanding, it is possible that the USAF envisions its F-35s doing other things than CAS for the time being while jets like the F-16 and F-15E do the CAS role. Given its fundamental attributes, the F-35 seems tailor-made for SEAD and precision strikes, so I get why the USAF would focus on those missions for the time being.

Since we are talking about, if you want to know about US military CAS doctrine, look here (https://irp.fas.org/doddir/dod/jp3_09_3.pdf). And try this paper (https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1026018.pdf#:~:text=It%20asserts%20that%20the%20A-10%20is%20no%20longer,into%20the%20CAS%20role%20as%20it%20becomes%20available.) for a good overview of the A-10's contribution to CAS over the last forty years, the challenges it faces today, and what it all means for the poor saps getting all hot and bothered on the ground.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 September 2023, 06:19:23
Precision strikes are good, but there's really no morale boost like that of seeing an aircraft share the risk you're facing on the ground while eliminating that risk for you.  It's straight Napoleon: the moral is the physical as three is to one.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 09:12:51
You are surely correct. Indeed, that aspect even found itself into the RAND paper (the last link).

Of course, one imagines morale would suffer when those in contact see their friendly, ass-kicking A-10 or F-35 or whatever take a MANPADS.

There are no easy answers. But I do believe we need a CAS option for at least a mid-intensity fight against an adversary with at least some peer-level gear that can do its job in a workmanlike fashion and not cost 80 million USD while its doing it.

It is believed that the A-10 has another 20 years of airframe life left after its upgrades, but the USAF thinks it can save 3+ billion retiring it. I think the real answer is to turn it into a drone, accept the cost of retention, and let the F-35 work itself out like every other combat aircraft we have procured.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 September 2023, 10:15:19
They're really fighting this fight to save all of $3B?  That's not much of a hill to die on...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 10:59:21
Well, 3.7bn USD as of 2013...https://breakingdefense.com/2013/12/air-force-chief-says-cutting-a-10-fleet-would-save-3-7-billion/#:~:text=But%20Air%20Force%20Chief%20of%20Staff%20Gen.%20Mark,the%20next%20decade%20in%20the%20face%20of%20sequestration. (https://breakingdefense.com/2013/12/air-force-chief-says-cutting-a-10-fleet-would-save-3-7-billion/#:~:text=But%20Air%20Force%20Chief%20of%20Staff%20Gen.%20Mark,the%20next%20decade%20in%20the%20face%20of%20sequestration.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 September 2023, 11:12:55
Sequestration was (is) its very own beast.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Garrand on 10 September 2023, 14:07:13
Re: CAS. One of the things I read about CAS in Afghanistan, is that there was often a preference for the "zoomies" over the A-10, for the simple reason that the response time was much, much faster. If you needed an airstrike NOW, if it was A-10s on station, that could take several critical minutes for the aircraft to enter the target zone, transit, release ordinance, & exit. With an F-16, this turn-around time was noticeably faster.

So all the talk about how great the A-10 was (& is) doesn't always translate well to the warzone. Unless the A-10 is right there, right now, its disadvantages in that conflict outweighed its advantages.

I've read that in Afghanistan, a dedicated attack platform like the A-7 would have been perfect: not too expensive or sophisticated, but with better performance than the A-10, and able to deliver a good enough war load...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 September 2023, 14:32:15
Good enough right now is always better than the best eventually.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Elmoth on 10 September 2023, 15:26:10
Question about CAS....

Frames like the Super Tucano are supposed to do that, right? And be MUCH cheaper than the big things. Has the USAF ever considered less capable frame like these for CAS or similar? Dunno, the idea just occurred to me and as I have no idea at all about this I thought i better ask.

Or are they too vulnerable to man pads and other man portable AA systems?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 September 2023, 15:44:26
The Air Force?  No, not to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 September 2023, 16:03:36
\
Why did the USAF stop using the A-1? The same reasons the USN did, one imagines.

By the time they stopped, the youngest airframes were nearing the twenty-year mark. There were other planes that could do the job of delivering ordnance to the ground. Those planes could get to the operational area faster and work synergistically with the rest of the strike package and the constraints of the friendly airfield (be they traditional ones or carriers on-station somewhere). And the USAF in particular already had a newer model of the A-1 coming on-line within a few years. It was called the A-10.

You know, for that CAS mission the zoomies don't want and never do.



as soon as the AH-56 was good and killed in funding, the USAF started work on canceling the PAVE/COIN program, and with it, the A-10.    The last A-10 rolled off the assembly line at Fairchild in 1982.

Yes, Forty two years ago.

This is part of why it costs so damned much to modernize/upgrade, and why the cost of maintenance has climbed-literally no new airframes since the first full year of the Reagan administration. 

To contrast this;

F-16's
(https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/photo/f16/F-16Web.jpg)
 are still being built.
F-18 and variants?
(https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:eco%2Cw_1200/MTc0NDUxOTY5MzU4ODMzMDAw/know-your-hornets-the-f-18-and-you.jpg)

still being built, new ones off the line, full spares and support.
F-15 (in multiple variants?)
(https://thedailyaviationcom.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/081112-f-7823a-306.jpg?w=2000&h=1200&crop=1) still in production, with annual production numbers (Notably, F-22, which was supposed to replace the '15? no longer in production aftr the first batch.)

F-35 was sold to congress as intended to be cheaper than F-22, this influenced the decision to cease production.

So the entire A-10 force, the youngest airframe is 42 years old as of 2024.  (41 currently).

Going through the Air Force inventory, contemporaries in terms of duration of service for flying airframes without new production includes platforms like B-52 and C-5A.  Front line combat, the only older airframe still in service is the B-52, which with the re-engining program and regular updates, is a fleet of "Ship of Theseus"  (every part's been replaced at least twice, the only continuation is the serial number plate.)

potentially a situation in 2021 where an A-10 pilot may literally be flying the same bird his grandfather flew at his age.

not just the same number plate, the same aircraft.

It's due for replacement, past due even...but F-35 is not the replacement it has been touted as.  Bitter experience with "Does everything by design" includes F-111 (only became reliable late in production, in a narrow role, instead of the all-things-to-all-commanders it was pushed by McNamara as being in the early sixties, since retired in the 1990s.)

while a large portion of why so many supersonic birds show up in CAS roles in asskrakistan has much to do with the simple fact that more of them have been built, and most of them are still being built, fighter pilots need flight hours, and there are more of them.

Because they're still being built.  Nobody worked their ass off to cancel them before they even saw front-line service, as happened with A-10, beginning late Carter Administration onward.

Pentagon brass were trying to get the extant airframes retired out of service before the 1991 gulf war, which bought a reprieve, they began again as soon as the gleam wore off that conflict in the 1990s.  It's been forty one years and annually, there's a push in the Pentagon to 'replace them' with something else.

The reason is because airframes like A-10 aren't designed or developed to 'turn and burn' with other fighters, and the role doesn't lend to 'Stealth'  characteristics when the ground fire can be viable using mark one eyeball or low-tech radars (ask the F-117 about that one, or the Serbs, who shot one down with 1950s missile tech.)

The demands of the role aren't smexy demands, you're not going to get an "Ace" flying a plane optimized for that unless they count helicopters and grounded aviation most of hte time (and if you're using something LIKE an A-10 or Frogfoot for that, you have bigger problems).
 
USAF retired the A-1 (gave it to the Vietnamese) because, in part, prop aircraft were a niche tech by 1972 for the United States (same reason USAF didn't want to give PA-48 a chance to compete in PAVE Coin despite being exponentially cheaper, with half the footprint, half the bomb load on an airframe a fraction of the size. It took a literal act of congress to give Piper a hearing.)

They were also offloaded because they were old, wearing out.

They (A-1 skyraiders) were also highly effective at missions we were already losing F-105s, F-4s, A-4's, etc etc. on over vietnam.  (all aircraft that cost significantly more to procure, train pilots for and maintain, than the old, 'obsolete' skyraider fleet.)

of related tangential interest, a Vietnam-era light bomber:

(https://media.defense.gov/2005/Dec/26/2000574502/2000/2000/0/050317-F-1234P-047.JPG)

which is also a Korean War medium bomber:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCVwTl_QpoLaIhXXLLvqb12OdvYoiTip3XiiSOWet0WdOw6nhPOYPvuHA2Vpxe61tEfPc&usqp=CAU)

and was designed for World War 2.

THOSE didn't make it in service past the 1960s outside of firefighting waterbombers and museum pieces.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 16:05:24
Question about CAS....

Frames like the Super Tucano are supposed to do that, right? And be MUCH cheaper than the big things. Has the USAF ever considered less capable frame like these for CAS or similar? Dunno, the idea just occurred to me and as I have no idea at all about this I thought i better ask.

Or are they too vulnerable to man pads and other man portable AA systems?

Sure, in 2009 the USAF initiated the Light Attack/Armed Reconnaissance (LAAR) program, where they investigated the usage of the Super Tucano and similar aircraft. But by 2017 it was long gone.

As I alluded to earlier, and has been brought up just recently by Garrand, turboprops are slow, slower than even the A-10. While cheaper and maybe better at the CAS role in an individual circumstance, you have to wait for the aircraft to get on station and have your airfields close enough to make it feasible in the first place. I cannot imagine they would be significantly better at eluding a modern front-line, all-arms IADS (as practiced by ex-WarPac forces and witnessed by this author during rotations at NTC) than helos are.

In a permissive AD environment (such as COIN, OOTW, operations against a non-peer force, etc.) I would think they could do just as well as they have since the early-mid 1940s. But even non-peer forces are starting to get peer-level equipment (which has been going on since Vietnam and really hit once we started giving Stingers to the Mujahedeen in the 1980s and the Iranians provided certain technologies [like certain EFP notions] to non-state actors as seen in Lebanon in 2006 and Iraq in 2003+), so the situation is changing out there.

EDIT: Further research (https://www.vietnamairlosses.com/index.php/statistics/usaf-losses) has confirmed that well over 200 A-1s were lost in Vietnam (the link is USAF only, remember, but either way it represents two-thirds of the fixed-wing combat aircraft losses). Not great, by any means, and perhaps symptomatic of their mission profile and the threat levels they faced. If a given aircraft had 2/3rds of all your combat aircraft losses, you might look for a replacement as well...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 17:27:40
First, love that B-26K image. Favorite aircraft ever. Glad to see it.

Second, umm, CS, the AH-56 program stopped in 1972 and the A-X program that begat the A-10 didn't even exist in its final form until 1970, and it started in 1966 (as a side note, it should be remembered that the A-10 flew off against the A-7D upgrade--itself the winner against the F-5--for the CAS role and won handily). The fight against the AH-56--whose program started in 1966 as well--started much later (officially in 1970-1 (https://www.history.army.mil/books/DAHSUM/1972/ch05.htm#b6)), but even I cannot say the USAF was wrong in its assertions.

A lot of helos had gone down in Southeast Asia, and the USAF spent a lot of time looking for their own downed fliers in conjunction with helicopters, which is probably where a fair-few A-1s were lost in their role as SAR escorts (hence the reason some will hear Skyraiders being called "Sandies" after their callsigns). They had every reason to say to Congress in 1971 that rotary winged assets had problems against determined air-defenses (see here for an encapsulation of Operation LAM SON 719 (https://www.comanchero.org/LamSon719.html#:~:text=The%20objective%20%20of%20Lam%20Son%20719%20was,into%20and%20out%20of%20Laos%20during%20this%20operation.) which the USAF used to torpedo Army arguments for the AH-56 based on the extensive US helicopter losses).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 17:27:57
Sequestration was (is) its very own beast.

Oh, yessir.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 September 2023, 19:59:20
First, love that B-26K image. Favorite aircraft ever. Glad to see it.

Second, umm, CS, the AH-56 program stopped in 1972 and the A-X program that begat the A-10 didn't even exist in its final form until 1970, and it started in 1966 (as a side note, it should be remembered that the A-10 flew off against the A-7D upgrade--itself the winner against the F-5--for the CAS role and won handily). The fight against the AH-56--whose program started in 1966 as well--started much later (officially in 1970-1 (https://www.history.army.mil/books/DAHSUM/1972/ch05.htm#b6)), but even I cannot say the USAF was wrong in its assertions.

A lot of helos had gone down in Southeast Asia, and the USAF spent a lot of time looking for their own downed fliers in conjunction with helicopters, which is probably where a fair-few A-1s were lost in their role as SAR escorts (hence the reason some will hear Skyraiders being called "Sandies" after their callsigns). They had every reason to say to Congress in 1971 that rotary winged assets had problems against determined air-defenses (see here for an encapsulation of Operation LAM SON 719 (https://www.comanchero.org/LamSon719.html#:~:text=The%20objective%20%20of%20Lam%20Son%20719%20was,into%20and%20out%20of%20Laos%20during%20this%20operation.) which the USAF used to torpedo Army arguments for the AH-56 based on the extensive US helicopter losses).

and the Air Force was STILL trying to cancel the A-10 before the last one came off the production lines at Fairchild...in 1982, in part because the programs it was supposed to bury, got good and buried for a long time.  (*AH-56 was still TECHNICALLY a program until the mid 70s, it was just a program going nowhere but the bin.  AH-64 ended up filling the role, but by then USAF didn't care that much.)

So a 41 year old aircraft, which had its first combat debut nearly a decade after the last one (ever) rolled off Fairchild's line, which has persisted in the role for decades...is inferior?  That's the gist of your position, am I mistaken?

It would be EXPECTED that a newer plane built for the same role will be better, if it isn't, someone needs their engineering degree yanked and someone else needs a budget audit.

thing being, newer aircraft to fill that role aren't being designed or built, because the role is only a role in terms of fighting over pieces of the Defense Pie (For the USAF)that being it isn't a role that's desired beyond securing funding and manning for it.

Kind of like how in the mid-sixties ballistic missiles were supposed to invalidate strategic bombers, so why finish the B-70?

(https://media.defense.gov/2006/Nov/22/2000533297/2000/2000/0/061122-F-1234P-019.JPG)

Or, "it's too expensive and we have submarines" so cancel the B-1(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RF7Vo7b69io/maxresdefault.jpg)

or, "Dogfighting is the past, No engagement will happen at close range, the future belongs to BVR"...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/QF-4_Holloman_AFB.jpg)

So let's build our fighters without guns.

"light fighters are useless!"

(https://www.airforce-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/05/shutterstock_1462927028.jpg)

(https://images.dassault-aviation.com/f_auto,q_auto,g_center,dpr_auto/wp-auto-upload/2/files/2016/11/MirageIII001_en-vol.jpg)

(https://nationalinterest.org/sites/default/files/main_images/f-16_fighting_falcon.jpg)

(https://cdn.prd.ngc.agencyq.site/-/jssmedia/wp-content/uploads/F-5-Tiger.jpg?mw=667&rev=330343e6ab79495fa011c9f070d9fdd1)

(https://www.thedrive.com/content/2021/02/Saab-Gripen-E-splinter-scheme.jpg?quality=85)

Then, something happens...

(https://flyingmag.sfo3.digitaloceanspaces.com/flyingma/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/03153638/air-tractor-sky-warden.png)

which is to say, weird shit.  the last one? that's a converted cropduster to do what these were designed for...back in the sixties.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/NASA_OV-10.jpg/1200px-NASA_OV-10.jpg)

We sit here on a forum and talk about 'peer' and 'near-peer' conflicts like we know what we're talking about.  Dunno about y'all, but I cannot claim to be an expert (at least, not with a straight face), but as an observer with very limited time the Service (and the wrong one, at that), I posit that there are two kinds of military procurement;

Fantasies, and obsessions.

Fantasies surrounding the next war where some superweapon will be the be-all and end-all no casualties victory the bombers will hit them so hard we'll just have to paint the lines.

Obsessions: over the last war, "next war will be Last War but with nifty new toys and we'll win it by doing what worked th last time only better."

Reality, if my reading of history is any indicator, falls somewhere between those two schools of...'thought'.

In the Vietnam era, everyone thought that BVR missiles made dogfighting obsolete.  This was...not borne out in practice.  The two replacements for the B-52 fleet that were proposed, designed, prototyped (one of thm actually made production of a sort) are retiring while the Buff soldiers on.

An aircraft first test flown in the late 1940s.

(https://warontherocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/B-52-Flying-1024x593.jpg)

and it turns out that ballistic missile batteries might be fan-tastic for delivering nuclear packages (at least, in theory, the performance of SCUD in the Iraq war left something to be desired there, and those weren't even intercontinental systems) They don't make up for a box, with wings, that can schlep an ABSURD amount of conventional ordnance over very long distances.

Remember when everyone was hot and bothered by Stealth?

(https://www.aviationfile.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/RAH-66-featured.jpg)

They still are, but we aren't buying fleets of Comanches, it turns out the idea's not that great.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 10 September 2023, 20:51:53
My 1st thought would be to look at a drone to replace to A10, then I thought about it and nope that last thing we want is a CAS Drone coming in - Hacked and hit your own troops.

I would like to see a new next gen A10, but to keep the armor and gun it still won't be sexy.  Yes it is Slow, but in it's role speed kills.

When I mentioned the A1 being used in CAS, in where I know if it was flying CAS for picking up downed pilots escorting Jolly Green Giants, had a "uncle" who did that.

The armed Cropduster, I think was part of the inspired for an "old BT" support vehicle right after the rules came out, now lost to time.   Tag Team sales team, 1 selling Cropdusters the second selling weapon  that conveniently are designed to "mount" in/on it.  But no we aren't selling combat airframes to rim planets.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 21:51:30
and the Air Force was STILL trying to cancel the A-10 before the last one came off the production lines at Fairchild...in 1982, in part because the programs it was supposed to bury, got good and buried for a long time.  (*AH-56 was still TECHNICALLY a program until the mid 70s, it was just a program going nowhere but the bin.  AH-64 ended up filling the role, but by then USAF didn't care that much.).

The AH-56 was cancelled and done for in 1972. The program that begat the AH-64 came on its heels almost immediately. It did not continue on into the mid 1970s, though if it did, I'd love to see the proof so I can know more than I did earlier. And just to say that you saw it on someone's desk at Lockheed in 1977 doesn't count either, since Lockheed never made another serious attempt to build a helicopter. And if they did continue with the AH-56, that was demonstrably stupid since the terms of the cancellation (https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1121533.pdf) made it clear the AH-56 did not meet the developing requirements for what begat the AH-64*.

The USAF wasn't trying to cancel the A-10 that early so far as I know. Maybe they were. In 1966, the news was about the F-111 (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=o-VVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EuEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6856%2C3575947).  In 1974 they were publicly lauding the A-10, though (https://www.nytimes.com/1974/06/20/archives/new-a10-jet-is-rated-over-a7-for-support-of-combat-troops.html). I do know that they stopped crying about CAS like they were in the early 1970s because Congress effectively told them in 1973 that the AH-56, A-X, and AV-8 were different craft and not replacements for each other (https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1121533.pdf)**. I also know that the USAF conducted the majority of training CAS missions at NTC during the 19 rotations I spent in the Box in the late-late 90s. No empirical linked data for that, but that statement is not derived from the jets I saw solely with my own eyes.

So a 41 year old aircraft, which had its first combat debut nearly a decade after the last one (ever) rolled off Fairchild's line, which has persisted in the role for decades...is inferior?  That's the gist of your position, am I mistaken?

You are mistaken. The A-10 will rightfully go down in history as one of the best aircraft to have ever functioned in the CAS role (and it should be remembered that CAS is a role or a mission, not an equipment type, just like cavalry is in modern terms***). It will go down alongside the IL2 and F4U in that regard. But, as a longtime fan of the aforementioned B-26K, F-14, and F4U, I realize that times change. I have always loved the A-10, and while I never received CAS from one in real-life, I operated underneath them many times in training at NTC and was 'killed' by one once or twice. In comparison to the faster fixed-wing CAS, they were more visible, more aerobatic, with an artistry to their movements you just didn't get when an F-16 or whathaveyou snapped past. The only jet I saw fly lower were USMC AV-8Bs.

But I am saying that A-10 fanboys are ignoring that fact that the present conflict in Ukraine is closer to the "peer-conflict" you speak so dismissively of (for an individual that speaks as if their opinion is rather more than that), and it shows that the A-10 would be in trouble there...unless the F-35 conducted the SEAD missions it apparently is training for. And even then, SEAD doesn't counter all aspects of an IADS, just the top echelons of it.

It would be EXPECTED that a newer plane built for the same role will be better, if it isn't, someone needs their engineering degree yanked and someone else needs a budget audit.

thing being, newer aircraft to fill that role aren't being designed or built, because the role is only a role in terms of fighting over pieces of the Defense Pie (For the USAF)that being it isn't a role that's desired beyond securing funding and manning for it.

I think the USAF is invested in providing CAS for the US Army. They have said that the F-35 will not conduct CAS missions in the same way the A-10 did/did--and right now it remains to be seen how it will all pan out. I know your thoughts on the F-35, but people said the same things about a lot of other kit. I prefer to let time tell me how they will turn out. Like you, I am not a professional.

Kind of like how in the mid-sixties ballistic missiles were supposed to invalidate strategic bombers, so why finish the B-70?

Why not adopt it? EDIT: You know why, already.

Or, "it's too expensive and we have submarines" so cancel the B-1

Read up on the "Nuclear Defense Triad". Anecdotally, I once got nuked by a B-1 at NTC, from my sister's squadron, no less. In and out in an eyeblink, it was. Care to note how the USAF figured out how to turn the B-1 into a CAS platform?

Nice images, if a tad large. Thanks for including them. I, myself, have been remiss in that regard.




*See Page 9: "On 17 August 1971, a settlement agreement was reached with Lockheed
that provided for completion of CHEYENNE development, and resolved all issues of the production termination litigation. In this settlement, the development contract was restructured to. a cost reimbursement (no fee) type, retroactive to 29 December 1969. Lockheed expenditures prior to that date resulted in a minimum contractor loss of $72.3 million, The production settlement allowed Lockheed to retain previously paid progress payments ($54 million) and provided $33 million for Lockheed settlement of their
sub-contractor claims. The termination inventory was reserved for the beneficial use of the Government in any future CHEYENNE or successor helicopter production contract with Lockheed."

**See Page 9: "In the first months of FY 71, Congressional committees showed an intense interest in CAS aircraft. They were faced with DOD requests to fund three separate CAS aircraft: AH-56A CHEYENNE, AV-811 Harrier, and A-X. The A-X was envisioned by the Air Force as a means of reestablishing that service's responsibility as the primary provider of CAS to ground troops. After considerable study of the merits of each service's system, the committee directed the SECDEF to reevaluate the roles and missions and aircraft options available for CAS. Findings, including a decision as to the aircraft best suited to fill the needs of CAS were to be delivered to the
Appropriations Committee in time for the FY 72 budget hearings. In accordance with Congressional instructions, a DOD CAS study group was formed. The Group found that A-X, CHEYENNE, and Harrier were sufficiently divergent in capability so as to justify all three programs."

***As a true, but tangentially related, aside, it might be well to note that the US Army doctrinally considers rotary-wing units to be maneuver units vice the USMC's doctrinal approach to them being supportive assets. In Vietnam, which is where the whole AH-56/A-10 fracas started, the US Army even considered specialized aviation units as fire support assets (in their "Aerial Rocket Artillery battalions")
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 September 2023, 22:29:19


and now, a visit from the island of 'never weres'

(https://www.jetsprops.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Rockwell_XFV-12_hovering_over_ship_-_drawing_1974.jpg)

XF-V12 supersonic vtol fighter (circa 1970s)

(https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/data/attachments/87/87983-08e0f9a2a21ffa21daf15a4c0b927c5d.jpg)

The F-15 concept that was rejected.

(https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/F-108A1.jpg)

Proposed F-108 Rapier

And one that Might've Been:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/F-16XL_NASA.jpg/220px-F-16XL_NASA.jpg)
F-16XL in NASA colours

Oh, and just because we've been having a fun discussion about the A-10, here's a shot of the A-10 and the plane that almost beat it to procurement...
(https://militarymatters.online/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/ya-10_YA-9.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 22:37:30
The A-9 eventually did make it to production...as the SU-25

(https://www.defencetalk.com/military/photos/su-25-frogfoot.5927/full?d=1514051039)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 10 September 2023, 22:39:38
I always liked the looks of the YA-9, and I wonder if they would have gone with the twin Oerlikon KCAs or adapted it to use the GAU-8.  I wonder what the deciding factors were that the Northrop offering wasn't selected.

I've heard the original intent for the A-10 was less CAS and more designed around slaughtering masses of tanks in Europe with Mavericks, while the Su-25 was more of a CAS aircraft intended to support forces on the move.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 September 2023, 22:51:24
More "never weres":

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/USAF_X32B_250.jpg)  There's a nasty story there that didn't get wide publicity involved, including a primary customer who really couldn't settle on what they wanted.  Lockheed predicted that bit better than the 'experts' imported over from Douglass to Boeing did.

(https://i0.wp.com/www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/F8U3-Crusader.jpg?fit=720%2C447&ssl=1)
XF-8U3, the 'Super Crusader' that lost to the F-4

(https://media.defense.gov/2020/Oct/02/2002510531/2000/2000/0/200930-F-IO108-032.JPG)

Look at the image, now, close your eyes, and imagine ejecting...or boarding with the engine running.  XF-107

(https://crewdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Northrop-F-20-Tigershark4.jpg)

This is what happens when you bet on politics...and lose.  F-20 Tigershark.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 10 September 2023, 22:58:51
I always liked the looks of the YA-9, and I wonder if they would have gone with the twin Oerlikon KCAs or adapted it to use the GAU-8.  I wonder what the deciding factors were that the Northrop offering wasn't selected.

I've heard the original intent for the A-10 was less CAS and more designed around slaughtering masses of tanks in Europe with Mavericks, while the Su-25 was more of a CAS aircraft intended to support forces on the move.

The A-9 would have had the GAU-8 because that is what the amended proposal in 1972 called for. And yes, tank-killing was on their minds, in europe, and even seeing how things were going in SEA.

GlobalSecurity and all, but it talks succinctly about the A-9/10 flyoff for the A-X program: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-x-1966.htm (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-x-1966.htm)

Basically, the A-10 was cheaper, more capable, lighter, and simply better. As noted, you never hear about how Northrup fought losing the contract, and that means they knew they were beaten. It's a respectable quality, if rare.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 September 2023, 23:07:00
The A-9 would have had the GAU-8 because that is what the amended proposal in 1972 called for. And yes, tank-killing was on their minds, in europe, and even seeing how things were going in SEA.

GlobalSecurity and all, but it talks succinctly about the A-9/10 flyoff for the A-X program: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-x-1966.htm (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-x-1966.htm)

Basically, the A-10 was cheaper, more capable, lighter, and simply better. As noted, you never hear about how Northrup fought losing the contract, and that means they knew they were beaten. It's a respectable quality, if rare.

It was a different, more civilized era.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 September 2023, 23:17:17
Another never-was, the YF-23:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Ray_Wagner_Collection_Image_YF-23.jpg)

Kind of ironic that the plane that beat it only barely was.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 10 September 2023, 23:28:22
I wish the YB-23 would have survived initial concepts...alas, the Black Widow II was too good for this foul world.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 10 September 2023, 23:30:00
honestly i wouldn't be surprised if the YF-23 has a descendant cropping up in the 6th gen at some point. my understanding was that it was stealthier, faster, could carry more munitions, and was almost as agile as the F-22.. but the YF-22 had it beat by just enough in the dogfighting department with the thrust vectoring to please the USAF generals, and of course lockheed was claiming a lower per unit price. (which turned out to be massively over ambitious.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 10 September 2023, 23:45:34
The F-22 also demonstrated a live-fire capability during the flight tests that the YF-23 couldn't do, which showed the -22 was a more mature program despite the fly-off still taking place.  But the -23 was definitely stealthier and faster, but it didn't have the thrust vectoring for dogfighting.

And like you said, LockMart underpriced the thing significantly compared to final costs for the program even before it was cut back to the 183 airframes produced.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 September 2023, 23:51:55
It was a different, more civilized era.

It's mildly amazing that Northrop is still around as a main contractor given the string of high-profile L's they racked up including McD taking Hornet away from them, but it's not always about the flashy headline projects.

I wish the YB-23 would have survived initial concepts...alas, the Black Widow II was too good for this foul world.

War's an ugly business. Winning ugly is still winning.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 September 2023, 23:56:58
honestly i wouldn't be surprised if the YF-23 has a descendant cropping up in the 6th gen at some point. my understanding was that it was stealthier, faster, could carry more munitions, and was almost as agile as the F-22.. but the YF-22 had it beat by just enough in the dogfighting department with the thrust vectoring to please the USAF generals, and of course lockheed was claiming a lower per unit price. (which turned out to be massively over ambitious.)

The YF-23 was just a proof-of-concept demonstrator like the X-2 Shinshin. That may have been what was requested, but the YF-22 that Lockheed brought was much closer to a pre-production prototype.

(https://imgur.com/Wlfv4d7.jpg)

For an ambitious and technically risky project, the YF-22 demonstrated that the Lockheed team had already worked on and addressed some of those technical risks. Basically, that there were fewer things that could go wrong vs. an F-23 which would have necessitated much more substantial changes to the YF-23 to turn it into an actual combat aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 11 September 2023, 01:24:53
And another bird that never was ... when Gerry Anderson did design for Republic, the F-103.

(https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/u/uenoshing/20210506/20210506090949.jpg)
(https://alchetron.com/cdn/republic-xf-103-fa6d23c0-c53c-4b3a-bbee-b2d5a6a0536-resize-750.jpeg)

Mixed powerplants - a ramjet behind a turbojet, with directable airflow; fully variable incident wings (revolving around the main spar); full titanium construction; it was stymied by
- problems working titanium not solved until the Blackbird;
- lack of the powerful engines promised; and
- before the use of area ruling, it would have flown like a brick, not a dart.

But great looking ...



Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 11 September 2023, 05:50:22
Was that one of those insane downward ejection seats, or is it merely without one? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 11 September 2023, 16:54:35
It was a different, more civilized era.

Touche.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 September 2023, 19:19:55
Was that one of those insane downward ejection seats, or is it merely without one? ???
from the looks of it, a downward ejecting *pod*. notice the pilot's seat is contained within a module. these were played around with a number of early high speed supersonic aircraft, due to the concern that ejecting into supersonic airflow would injure the pilot, if not kill them. most likely that bit above the pilots head is a shield that drops down in the event of ejection, just before the entire assembly is fired downwards out of the aircraft.
so apparently it is even weirder.. there is a shield that slides up to fully encase the pilot.. and it actually triggers if the cockpit loses pressure, creating a sealed life support unit. which has rudimentary controls allowing the pilot to keep flying the plane. when ejecting the pod seals up and then is fired downwards.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 11 September 2023, 20:15:18
Weirder indeed!! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 11 September 2023, 20:26:23
A bit of Naval Aviation from the early days:

(https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-98000/NH-98222/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1617125823986.jpg)

(https://i0.wp.com/www.airships.net/wp-content/uploads/shenandoah-diagrams.jpg)

just a sidebar, but Airships proved impractical when piston engined, cloth aeroplanes armed with rifle caliber guns were still a thing...

or even earlier, though it can be suggested this is the true ancestor of the BUFF.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Cuxhaven_Raid_1914.JPG)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 September 2023, 20:54:26
I remember seeing something about the US navy's experimentation with lighter-than-air aircraft carriers.  Interesting idea but the size limitations imposed by needing to fit the planes inside a zeppelin made them pretty impractical.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 September 2023, 21:00:22
LTA craft proved to be a largely impractical weapon of war yes. it has niches as exploratory, communications ,and observational systems though. and possible as energy efficient cargo lifting in more modern forms.

and even in WW1, they were semi-successful as long range bombers, a role that the HTA aircraft couldn't fill at the start of the war. but aircraft tech advanced much faster than LTA tech so it didn't take long for the short ranged biplanes to be able to effectively counter them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Dave Talley on 11 September 2023, 23:10:04
Tag
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 11 September 2023, 23:49:46
Airships still had their uses. They werent the superweapons the pulps made them out to be, but they had a hell of a lot of loiter time and while slower then a plane, they were still faster then a ship. The US Navy used a ton of them during WWII as sub spotters and ASW patrol.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 September 2023, 08:15:14
Can you shrink those images down when you post them?  They're far too large for my browser screen to see at all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 12 September 2023, 14:48:41
That F-16XL

Reminds me of Mack Maloney's story :Wingman Series Hawk Hunter's Cranked Arrow fighter.

Modified to carry double the normal Sidewinder amount... 12 IIRC.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 September 2023, 15:26:57
The USAF has released two new images of the B-21 Raider:

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/09/12/8018270A-scaled.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/09/12/B21-Raider-2-1-scaled.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)

I see a test boom. Can the first flight be imminent?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 September 2023, 18:09:35
That F-16XL

Reminds me of Mack Maloney's story :Wingman Series Hawk Hunter's Cranked Arrow fighter.

Modified to carry double the normal Sidewinder amount... 12 IIRC.

TT

not surprising.. half a dozen books into the series, his custom F-16 uber-falcon gets shot down (by a ridiculous BBEG contrivance) and they rebuild it into a F-16Xl but with all his absurd mods in place. ((to give you an idea.. the guy, in a post-apoc world, modified an F-16 to have a thrust to weight ratio greater than an F-15, carry six M-61 gatlings with thousands of rounds of ammo, two dozen sidewiders, all without sacrificing any agility.. which because his literally superhuman reflexes and spidersense like abiltiy to pick up on threats, meant he was literally unstoppable. yeah, it was pretty silly.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 12 September 2023, 18:27:09
Which is why Starhawk series is just Wingman 2.0, but super-duper sci-fi.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 12 September 2023, 18:32:49
It has been years since I read those
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 13 September 2023, 10:43:17
Another one:

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/cms.ipressroom.com/295/files/20238/6500ad903d63328eaa6e586d_Northrop+Grummans+B-21+Raider+Continues+Progression+to+Flight+Test++/Northrop+Grummans+B-21+Raider+Continues+Progression+to+Flight+Test++_405e8a96-1211-42ad-8f20-e9359166e33b-prv.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 13 September 2023, 11:37:42
The USAF has released two new images of the B-21 Raider:

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/09/12/8018270A-scaled.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/09/12/B21-Raider-2-1-scaled.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)

I see a test boom. Can the first flight be imminent?

I'm not sure if it's the angle with the contours or just the colour choice, but to me it looks less like a B-2 and actually more like a bigger, manned X-44A (not the F-22 derived MANTA) or to a lesser degree X-45, X-47B since those two have the change in wing sweep.

X-44A
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Lockheed_Martin_X-44A_%285-18-2023%29.jpg/1024px-Lockheed_Martin_X-44A_%285-18-2023%29.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/St2FNLD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/2GYKer6.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/EwRNAFK.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/LouRotk.jpg)

X-45A
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/X-45_AV1_sixth_flight_from_Edwards_AFB_%28EC02-0295-05%29.jpg/1024px-X-45_AV1_sixth_flight_from_Edwards_AFB_%28EC02-0295-05%29.jpg)

X-47B, which is also from Northrop Grumman
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/X-47B_operating_in_the_Atlantic_Test_Range_%28modified%29.jpg/1024px-X-47B_operating_in_the_Atlantic_Test_Range_%28modified%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 15 September 2023, 20:10:45
Bell 207 Sioux Scout. The proof-of-concept for the first dedicated attack helicopter. Modified from a Bell 47 helicopter to test concepts before the AH-1 Cobra.

Stock Bell 47
(https://imgur.com/3RO4HOa.jpg)

The Bell 207 Sioux Scout
(https://imgur.com/kD0WZz2.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Bell_Model_207_Sioux_Scout.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Bell_207_Sioux_Scout_73923_%28cropped%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Bell_207_Sioux_Scout_%27N73927%27_-_10876796276.jpg/1280px-Bell_207_Sioux_Scout_%27N73927%27_-_10876796276.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 15 September 2023, 21:02:44
Bell 207 Sioux Scout. The proof-of-concept for the first dedicated attack helicopter. Modified from a Bell 47 helicopter to test concepts before the AH-1 Cobra.

It is indeed correct that the Bell 207 was likely the first American purpose designed gunship (in 1964), and its shortcomings (which surprised no one since it was little more than a proof of concept developed from watching the Algerian mess from afar) would begat the Fire-Support Aerial System (FAS) program, which would turn into the Advanced Aerial Fire Support System (AAFSS) program, which would yield the AH-56 Cheyenne, and would eventually morph into the Advanced Attack Helicopter (AAH) program which yielded the AH-64 Apache.

The AH-1 HueyCobra (later just the Cobra after the -1G model became standardized) was originally selected as a stopgap measure against several other competitors (and in record time; first flight being 1965 after seven months' development and production starting under two years later in 1967) for use in Vietnam as the AAFSS program went forth. It was actually not selected for the competition itself, but Bell thought they had a good thing going on, so they kept working on it. The sublime irony is that not only did the AH-1 soldier manfully on through that debacle, but continued on to the present in a rather proud lineage. Fun fact, the AH-1 as we know it started life as the Bell 209, the first model of which had retractable skids.

(https://defaeroreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Bell_209-e1473525454370.jpg)

You can read more about it here (https://defaeroreport.com/2016/09/09/first-flight-bells-model-209-becomes-cobra-gunship/).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 20 September 2023, 03:27:32
Well, they have identity an American MIA U.S. Army Air Forces Sergeant Irving R. Newman (https://www.dpaa.mil/News-Stories/News-Releases/PressReleaseArticleView/Article/3512320/airman-accounted-for-from-wwii-newman-i/) from WWII.

 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DaveMac on 20 September 2023, 07:09:32
https://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2022/08/24/supermarine-spitfire-raf-x4009-restoration/

Hope they can attract the funding
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 20 September 2023, 13:47:10
Just a buncha mouth breathers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdiU9aHWHo

Two Canadair Sabres, a 2-seater MiG-15, a Fury - I want to say FJ-4, and what I think is a MiG-17
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 20 September 2023, 14:24:31
That Huey Cobra with retractable landing gear looks really off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 20 September 2023, 15:11:11
I can't imagine the retractable hydraulics were worth the weight, especially since they seem to have been abandoned in later designs.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 20 September 2023, 19:14:01
Not a lot of attack choppers have retractable landing gear.
Even the Z model of the Cobra has the skis still.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 21 September 2023, 01:52:01
Mil-24 has'em.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 21 September 2023, 04:22:49
Mil-24 has'em.

Ka-50/52 as well, but those two are the big exceptions from the standard attack helicopter configuration (stepped tandem cockpit with a thin fuselage).

AH-56 Cheyenne and the RAH-66 Comanche also had retractable gear for speed/stealth, but again both are kind of exceptions to all the other dedicated attack/attack-like helos (Kawaski OH-1 and Harbin Z-19 are scout choppers, but keep the attack helicopter layout otherwise)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 21 September 2023, 12:53:59
SA 365 Dauphin 2 and it's American variant, MH-65 Dolphin.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 21 September 2023, 13:26:33
SA 365 Dauphin 2 and it's American variant, MH-65 Dolphin.

TT

Retractable gear aren't unusual at all in transport helos, although the Dauphin 2/Panther is on the smaller/lighter side of designs that do.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 21 September 2023, 13:43:46
Speed is everything in Rescue...

Drag hurts.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 September 2023, 16:36:48
The news this morning played the audio recording of the 911 call made by the pilot of the F-35 who had to eject over Georgia.  Poor guy was having a heck of a time trying to convince the dispatcher that he really was a Marine pilot who'd ejected from his jet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 22 September 2023, 16:53:46
Here's a link to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXhI8fLpeJU
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 September 2023, 09:11:30
(https://minutemanmissile.com/images/AirborneLaserB.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcMiMbdXYAAuiWo.jpg:large)

two Lasers installed on airframes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Death_from_above on 28 September 2023, 10:26:01
First image is the YAL-1 (scrapped and sent to the Boneyard since), quiaff ?

The USAF is now apparently testing fighter-scale lasers :

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/first-laser-weapon-for-a-fighter-delivered-to-the-air-force
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 28 September 2023, 10:30:00
Ah, the precursor to the Seydlitz.

(I mean, you can barrel roll a 707... (https://youtu.be/AaA7kPfC5Hk))
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 28 September 2023, 14:00:50
Are you thinking Fairchild Republic A-10e Thunderbolt III, Laser addition?

Just asking for a friend...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 28 September 2023, 14:42:01
First image is the YAL-1 (scrapped and sent to the Boneyard since), quiaff ?

The USAF is now apparently testing fighter-scale lasers :

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/first-laser-weapon-for-a-fighter-delivered-to-the-air-force

the other is the NKC-135 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_NC-135l), a flying observatory aircraft refit to carry an earlier laser device to test the feasibility of airborne laser use.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 28 September 2023, 16:36:26
second one is the YAL-1. the first one is the NKC-135 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_NC-135l), a flying observatory aircraft refit to carry an earlier laser device to test the feasibility of airborne laser use.
Every picture I can find of the YAL-1 matches the first picture...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 28 September 2023, 18:16:07
sigh.. you are right. what i get for not checking the order of the images.  :tongue:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 28 September 2023, 18:26:05
Are you thinking Fairchild Republic A-10e Thunderbolt III, Laser addition?

Just asking for a friend...

TT

There's a thought.

Or a B-52K with a belly mount.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 28 September 2023, 18:32:53
B-52K is more like a Strato-Puff the Magic Dragon... Breathes fire and can make it rain hella hot drops if you Catch-22 it!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 29 September 2023, 08:33:48
We're still mostly talking about antimissile defense. We dont have the oomph to take out anything heavier in a reliable fashion quiet yet, especially not on an air based platform. We're a LONG ways away from taking out ground targets with the things.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 29 September 2023, 13:57:01
Imagine a GRU-8 or two mounted in the belly of a 52...

Forwards or maybe backwards firing down...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 29 September 2023, 23:22:37
not sure the airframe could take the stress
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 30 September 2023, 14:01:50
Imaginations run rampant sometimes, and people come up with cool ideas that could never exist...

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f6/52/25/f65225f5865e7e29177a73efa5d0d69e.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/83/33/86/83338673bf691c9ab28ec937b197aac8.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 30 September 2023, 15:04:32
Cool indeed... though I think that COULD have come to be, even if it didn't...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 01 October 2023, 08:49:59
Make one in 1/300 and I'd buy a couple, just because Starfighter.


In other news, those crazy Russian groundcrews are at it again (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tu-95-decoys-are-being-painted-on-russian-air-base-s-apron/ar-AA1hv05Q?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9c3ce11d19624d419457d1a4ffe06358&ei=31#image=1):

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1hv2dv.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1hvdox.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1huSkp.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 01 October 2023, 09:11:51
Would love to see a Starfighter 5th gen!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 01 October 2023, 14:36:45
Imaginations run rampant sometimes, and people come up with cool ideas that could never exist...

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f6/52/25/f65225f5865e7e29177a73efa5d0d69e.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/83/33/86/83338673bf691c9ab28ec937b197aac8.jpg)

It doesn't look aerodynamically impossible, at least, although the vertical stabilizer looks a bit undersized and the flaps/ailerons a little funky.

Top speed would probably be limited though if it uses fixed intakes like pretty much all stealthy aircraft do. Not that Mach 2 atmospheric heating probably does anything good for RAM. It's also not as stealthy as it could be with the single vertical tail and more could be done with edge alignment.

Found the artist's site: https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/9429014

I like the 'stealth' Vampire, but again with the undersized vertical stabilizers

(https://imgur.com/EDQN9Q9.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 01 October 2023, 14:44:52
The 5th Gen Starfighter, is just nuts. Considering that it was the ultimate expression of a day fighter, it's cool but just crazy.

Italy operated them until 2004, 29 years after the USAF phased the airframe out. But then, NASA flew theirs until 1994.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 01 October 2023, 14:55:05
Well, being shot at wasn't exactly in NASA's mission profile... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 01 October 2023, 15:00:50
Well technically, it was a one way up...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 01 October 2023, 15:22:24
Well, being shot at wasn't exactly in NASA's mission profile... ;)
Point taken! But airframe stress and parts availability are always a concern.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 01 October 2023, 15:23:27
Also fair points, good sir! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 01 October 2023, 16:29:56
Make one in 1/300 and I'd buy a couple, just because Starfighter.


In other news, those [img=https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tu-95-decoys-are-being-painted-on-russian-air-base-s-apron/ar-AA1hv05Q?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9c3ce11d19624d419457d1a4ffe06358&ei=31#image=1]http://crazy Russian groundcrews are at it again[/img]:

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1hv2dv.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1hvdox.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1huSkp.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)

Aim for the ones covered in tires.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 October 2023, 16:47:14
It's like fighting an enemy that can create illusionary duplicates in a video game: shoot the one with a shadow.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 01 October 2023, 19:50:11
Aim for the ones covered in tires.

Pretty sure the story says that they painted the tires on too. The real answer is to go after the fuel trucks. Or personnel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 01 October 2023, 20:00:06
I know I've posted it before, but the 'stealth' P-38 always amuses me

(https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/043/979/895/4k/yeeky-zhang-as-casd.jpg?1638797767)

Artists's site: https://www.artstation.com/yeeky317

He's the guy that did the alt-universe B-36, along with a bunch of Ace Combat-esque planes and Homeworld-esque space ships, with some weird guns in the mix

(https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/041/293/391/4k/yeeky-zhang-bbbbbb1.jpg?1631365176)
(https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/040/168/172/4k/yeeky-zhang-azxcqwad1.jpg?1628066953)
(https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/043/790/779/4k/yeeky-zhang-asdxcve.jpg?1638273534)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 01 October 2023, 20:11:48
Looking up the artist for the stealth Starfighter and Vampire led me to a Japanese marketplace for various art things

Hypothetical JASDF F-14s
(https://imgur.com/kW6FwIn.jpg)

A 3-D printed model kit for one of the twin-engine concepts for the FS-X
(https://imgur.com/TKaM3vO.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/HpLZQsU.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vfM2kJa.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/3wGgSa9.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 01 October 2023, 20:32:55
Its such a bad movie but Deal Of the Century had the F-19 in it. It was a pretty cool looking jet with circle shaped wings.

Not as cool as the first photos of the F-19 Stealth
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 October 2023, 18:59:34
F19
(https://www.hdwallpaperspulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/08/Lockheed-F-19-Stealth-Fighter-Title.jpg)
you know Testors model (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/a-short-very-short-history-of-the-f-19-23036383/) of an aircraft that never existed or did it??
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 03 October 2023, 19:22:58
Always liked this F-19 also
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 October 2023, 19:31:44
That's certainly one way to achieve a "lifting body" design... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 October 2023, 19:54:23
So who else played Project Stealth Fighter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Stealth_Fighter) on their C64 back in the day
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 October 2023, 20:00:22
Not me... I had a TRS-80 Model III! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 03 October 2023, 21:32:07
Night Raven!!!  Cobra-la-la-la!!1

I repainted my Imperial TIE pilot with a Cobra sticker on their head.

 :grin:

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 October 2023, 22:14:24
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/384105860_714858057339964_1369266075725930715_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=49d041&_nc_ohc=PaEQXCsyImgAX98EDgY&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfBZiSkXeaW2fe4dQTuklQA4ypxfh6oDFaLpyZuJL2hreA&oe=6521538C)

October 3rd, 1967, Test pilot "Pete" Knight gave that Ol' Mach Demon the best chase it ever had! William John "Pete" Knight set a world absolute aircraft speed record for manned aircraft when he piloted the X-15A-2 to 4,520 miles per hour, or Mach 6.72, almost seven times the speed of sound. A speed record that still stands to this date. Knight also became one of only five pilots to earn their Astronaut Wings by flying an airplane to an altitude over 280,500 feet.

On a previous X-15 test flight, Pete suffered a total electrical failure and complete onboard systems shut down, that occurred while climbing through 107,000 feet at Mach 4.17 on June 29, 1967.

Calmly allowing the plane to continue to its apex altitude of 173,000 feet, he pushed the nose over and flew a purely visual approach to a non eventful landing at Mud Lake, Nevada. For his remarkable feat of airmanship that day, he earned a Distinguished Flying Cross.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 04 October 2023, 00:15:01
F19
(https://www.hdwallpaperspulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/08/Lockheed-F-19-Stealth-Fighter-Title.jpg)
you know Testors model (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/a-short-very-short-history-of-the-f-19-23036383/) of an aircraft that never existed or did it??

[F-19 intro theme starts playing]
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 October 2023, 12:40:42
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/384105860_714858057339964_1369266075725930715_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=49d041&_nc_ohc=PaEQXCsyImgAX98EDgY&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfBZiSkXeaW2fe4dQTuklQA4ypxfh6oDFaLpyZuJL2hreA&oe=6521538C)

October 3rd, 1967, Test pilot "Pete" Knight gave that Ol' Mach Demon the best chase it ever had! William John "Pete" Knight set a world absolute aircraft speed record for manned aircraft when he piloted the X-15A-2 to 4,520 miles per hour, or Mach 6.72, almost seven times the speed of sound. A speed record that still stands to this date. Knight also became one of only five pilots to earn their Astronaut Wings by flying an airplane to an altitude over 280,500 feet.

On a previous X-15 test flight, Pete suffered a total electrical failure and complete onboard systems shut down, that occurred while climbing through 107,000 feet at Mach 4.17 on June 29, 1967.

Calmly allowing the plane to continue to its apex altitude of 173,000 feet, he pushed the nose over and flew a purely visual approach to a non eventful landing at Mud Lake, Nevada. For his remarkable feat of airmanship that day, he earned a Distinguished Flying Cross.

all bow down before the Mach, and praise Pete Knight who is its prophet.

(https://th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com/r49-0ILY2WZ4TeuVFfoXPpMuXHg=/1000x750/filters:no_upscale()/https://tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com/filer/d3/ca/d3ca89d6-7a43-4f54-9ebe-62b50cbeb1e7/6283h.jpg)

Oh Behold the breaker of Records,  That which has been beyond the speed of mortal men.

(https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/191218144956-ecn-1651-orig.jpg?q=w_3000,h_2365,x_0,y_0,c_fill)

and remember, it is not that Gravity holds us down, it is instead, that the Earth Sucks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 06 October 2023, 03:20:58
And now for something completely different - an F-51 with twin recoilless rifles undergoing testing in 1970:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/comments/170hxb5/20_june_1974_a_us_army_f51_mustang_experimenting/

(https://i.redd.it/dxa5oefoxdsb1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 06 October 2023, 10:39:34
And now for something completely different - an F-51 with twin recoilless rifles undergoing testing in 1970:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/comments/170hxb5/20_june_1974_a_us_army_f51_mustang_experimenting/

(https://i.redd.it/dxa5oefoxdsb1.jpg)

I'd love to know the context for that experiment since it's not like WW2 fighters hadn't been fitted with ground rockets before, and the Mustang in particular was well-known for its vulnerability to ground fire - although by 1974 maybe it was more of a case of what planes had the most flyable examples left after the big post-war demobilization
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Death_from_above on 06 October 2023, 11:07:23
I'd love to know the context for that experiment since it's not like WW2 fighters hadn't been fitted with ground rockets before, and the Mustang in particular was well-known for its vulnerability to ground fire - although by 1974 maybe it was more of a case of what planes had the most flyable examples left after the big post-war demobilization

Very much not an expert, but AFAIK the P-51 was used as a testbed for supposed/proposed use of a recoilless rifle on the Bronco OV-10

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/legends-of-vietnam-broncos-tale-5802093/

They had in mind the 106-mm recoilless rifle.


During WW2, the Germans tested a 14-inch recoilless rifle (Sondergerät 104 "Münchhausen"). Never made it up in the air though..

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/mdvnw0/sonderger%C3%A4t_sg104_m%C3%BCnchhausen_this_massive_3556mm/

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 06 October 2023, 11:46:49
Very much not an expert, but AFAIK the P-51 was used as a testbed for supposed/proposed use of a recoilless rifle on the Bronco OV-10

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/legends-of-vietnam-broncos-tale-5802093/

They had in mind the 106-mm recoilless rifle.


During WW2, the Germans tested a 14-inch recoilless rifle (Sondergerät 104 "Münchhausen"). Never made it up in the air though..

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/mdvnw0/sonderger%C3%A4t_sg104_m%C3%BCnchhausen_this_massive_3556mm/

I can't think of any reason to use a 106mm recoilless rifle over unguided rockets is the thing. That's a lot of fixed weight and drag, especially if there's a reload mechanism. Not to mention the counterweight being blown backwards and the visual signature of the firing itself.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 06 October 2023, 12:21:10
I can't think of any reason to use a 106mm recoilless rifle over unguided rockets is the thing. That's a lot of fixed weight and drag, especially if there's a reload mechanism. Not to mention the counterweight being blown backwards and the visual signature of the firing itself.
Accuracy, presumably. Sometimes area effect weapons aren't your friend.  azn
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 October 2023, 15:29:05
Wouldn't the airspeed be a significant portion of the muzzle velocity? Can't imagine accuracy would be improved.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 06 October 2023, 15:42:29
I can't think of any reason to use a 106mm recoilless rifle over unguided rockets is the thing. That's a lot of fixed weight and drag, especially if there's a reload mechanism. Not to mention the counterweight being blown backwards and the visual signature of the firing itself.


Have you ever watched the trail from an unguided rocket?  since it's continuing to thrust, the path is not necessarily 'ballistic' so much as "good 'nuff'.  To get precise shots with a rocket, you need a guidance package to keep it going at the target, esp. as propellant variations in the rocket itself can cause yaw and other problems an unpowered projectile doesn't really have.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 06 October 2023, 15:51:29
Love that smooth jazz. Swiss Mirage III with JATO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyVFFewIi24

Other vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfQVkfSkDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZk_MPlHBaY

Also I remember borrowing this VHS tape from the library!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRDC3apcHng
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 06 October 2023, 16:01:21

Have you ever watched the trail from an unguided rocket?  since it's continuing to thrust, the path is not necessarily 'ballistic' so much as "good 'nuff'.  To get precise shots with a rocket, you need a guidance package to keep it going at the target, esp. as propellant variations in the rocket itself can cause yaw and other problems an unpowered projectile doesn't really have.

CRV7 2.75" rockets have ~3 miliradians of dispersion or roughly 10MOA which is a fair bit tighter than the supposed dispersion for Vulcan or Avenger although I have to wonder how much the Vulcan's numbers vary by platform. In any case, unguided rockets are accurate or 'accurate' enough to be aimed via gunsight.

The real question is how much accuracy is expected from a pair of recoilless rifle rounds being fired from an aircraft. Recoilless rifles weren't particularly known for high muzzle velocities or long effective ranges even in their original ground role.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 06 October 2023, 16:10:54
CRV7 2.75" rockets have ~3 miliradians of dispersion or roughly 10MOA which is a fair bit tighter than the supposed dispersion for Vulcan or Avenger although I have to wonder how much the Vulcan's numbers vary by platform. In any case, unguided rockets are accurate or 'accurate' enough to be aimed via gunsight.

The real question is how much accuracy is expected from a pair of recoilless rifle rounds being fired from an aircraft. Recoilless rifles weren't particularly known for high muzzle velocities or long effective ranges even in their original ground role.

A lot of the dispersion on vulcans is INTENTIONAL.  Machine guns fire in patterns to account for a likely targets' effort to not become a likely casualty.  if your machine gun's pattern is too tight, they  rebarrel it to open it up a bit.

(it's not a drilling device, it's an area of effect weapon, when you're looking at machine-guns.  One of the reason you see 'rate reducers' is to keep too many rounds from an MG from cming in too closely packed, and thus, missing the target.)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 October 2023, 16:14:50
Love that smooth jazz. Swiss Mirage III with JATO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyVFFewIi24

Sorry, nothing beats an F-104 on ZLL:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75qnxMd1YSY

Surprisingly, it was considered remarkably smooth, transition was easy, and overall pilots thought it was one of the less dangerous things to do in a Starfighter.

Still, I love the faces of the uniformed gents immediately after take-off. "What the ****, it actually worked!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 06 October 2023, 16:32:46
Those vintage vids are HILARIOUS! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 06 October 2023, 17:40:48
I have to say, if you find yourself putting recoilless rifles on the wingtips of any airframe, let alone a P-51, you are doing something terribly wrong and should probably be moved into a different line of work.

The caveat being that there may be some entirely reasonable explanation that I am utterly unable to see or contemplate.

And, because, JATO:

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=c-130+jato&mid=E7F100CE3D43FA72B02FE7F100CE3D43FA72B02F (https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=c-130+jato&mid=E7F100CE3D43FA72B02FE7F100CE3D43FA72B02F)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 06 October 2023, 19:09:54
Since the Russians are testing their IADS on their own aircraft, I've been thinking about Sukhois.

This one is likely still flying:

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1hO7V6.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)

Unlike this one (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/su-33-carrier-landing-crash-aftermath-seen-in-new-video):

https://twitter.com/i/status/1708855961765482532 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1708855961765482532)

The pilot in that one survived after the Su-33 broke an arrestor wire during an attempted recovery.

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/10/02/Screenshot-2023-10-02-at-3.39.47-PM.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

And just because, navalized Fulcrum:

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/10/02/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-29K_%E2%80%98RF-92324_-_48_blue_36928677816-scaled.jpeg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

And Flanker:

(https://weaponews.com/images/2018/01/05/7e54bfd78911bcab421f95bfc01fcec4.jpg)

You know, I've been thinking that if I ever get around to painting my Renegade Legion Interceptors, I was going to go with a basic grey for the TOG, in homage to their inception as Star Wars Imperial starfighters. But lately, I've come to think that the Soviet Naval Aviation eggplant scheme is appropriately sinister enough.

The Commonwealth/RL craft, will, of course, be in some form of the groovy 1970s era USN gull-grey/white:

(https://i2.wp.com/cms.sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/f-14-tomcat.jpg?fit=800%2C420&ssl=1&w=800)

Because, you know, VF-84 Tomcat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 06 October 2023, 19:20:51
Here is a Bird Dog scout plane with Bazooka's.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 06 October 2023, 19:29:21
Here is a Bird Dog scout plane with Bazooka's.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 06 October 2023, 20:37:50
https://www.americanheritagemuseum.org/aircrafts/piper-l4-grasshopper-rosie-the-rocketer/

he strapped an array of single shot bazookas onto his wings he was able to turn his spotter plane into an anti-vehicle unit, in the event he ran across tanks or light vehicles while scouting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 October 2023, 22:21:28
Which just demonstrates how demoralised and disadvantaged the Wermacht & other forces were by that period of WW2.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 October 2023, 18:53:49
https://www.americanheritagemuseum.org/aircrafts/piper-l4-grasshopper-rosie-the-rocketer/

he strapped an array of single shot bazookas onto his wings he was able to turn his spotter plane into an anti-vehicle unit, in the event he ran across tanks or light vehicles while scouting.

Grasshoppers are already fairly sedate, if nimble aircraft. I'm curious how that added drag and weight on the wings affected the handling. I would expect slower roll and more roll inertia. Also, the low-slow-and quiet approach really is a precursor to attack helo operations. Along with the need for surprise to survive the close attack
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Euphonium on 11 October 2023, 14:02:48
Archeologist have discovered the remains of a WWII attempt to build a catapult to help launch heavy bombers: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052782 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052782)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 11 October 2023, 16:42:11
Interesting... I'm surprised they gave up on it before even trying to launch at least one aircraft...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 October 2023, 20:56:37
Some bean counter probably decided that the rate the system went through engines wasn't worth taking things to an actual launch.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 17 October 2023, 19:14:02
Going French, and only the lookers this time around!

The Mystere Delta, great grand-daddy of Gallic Doritos
(https://imgur.com/TFo3z2d.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/5oyDS4p.jpg)

The Mirage III prototype
(https://imgur.com/05X8P2X.jpg)

The Mirage IIIE. Stunningly modern proportions given the vintage of the design
(https://imgur.com/QEJ0f8x.jpg)

Just because it's pointy, doesn't mean it gets out of moving mud!. The caption for this Mirage 5 says it's the first test flight, but I think that's a mistake - that would have been flown clean instead of having all that stuff hanging off of it. Clearly, they weren't all into the low-drag bombs yet when the photo was taken
(https://imgur.com/ZBPlwzU.jpg)

The Mirage 50 upgrade on the ramp. I think only Chile bought them and Venezuela had some aircraft updated to it
(https://imgur.com/n45X6G1.jpg)

Mirage F2 (Dassault's webpage has it labelled as the III F2), a bigger, more capable twin-engined jet, that the military dropped due to cost, going with the cheaper F1
(https://imgur.com/Pn6HyvP.jpg)

Mirage III and IV on the ramp, giving a good size comparison. To give an idea how big the big boys of fighterdom are, the Mirage IV is only 1.5m longer than a Flanker, and less than a meter longer than a MiG-31
(https://imgur.com/v42u6BY.jpg)

The big Mirage 4000, competitor to the F-15. Like the F2, it failed to secure contracts, giving way to the smaller, cheaper, single-engine Mirage 2000
(https://imgur.com/YQek2Nk.jpg)

Swinger Mirage Gs. They look like some weird combination of MiG-23 and Panavia Tornado, except with the distinctive semi-conical inlets
(https://imgur.com/zKko3KI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/gTdIvJZ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/cMYr1kG.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 17 October 2023, 19:39:35
Navy jets are the ones that can really justify the cost of two engines... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Garrand on 17 October 2023, 23:17:27
Talking about Mirage IIIs, here is an Ecuadorian Atlas Cheetah, a rebuilt & modernized Mirage III

(https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/7/6/7/2341767.jpg?v=v40)

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 18 October 2023, 00:28:03
Pakistani Mirage III EP at the China Aviation Museum. The interior part of the exhibit uses part of an old airbase dug under a mountain
(https://imgur.com/3z8cIWX.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rL1qORH.jpg)

The museum has an open-air boneyard from which they presumably cannibalize parts and restore exhibits. It's hardly AMARG out in Arizona, as some of these Succession War-worthy Il-10 and An-2 airframes testify
(https://imgur.com/B3i0KCP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/c1JEh1Q.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/K522xaE.jpg)

B-29
(https://imgur.com/fSBN4rw.jpg)

And a bunch of not-B-29s. Note the engines, changed wing profile and big tail of the B-50s. And occasional extra wing tanks and strapped on jets...
WB-50D
(https://imgur.com/ErJ7tpg.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ndN3Ti3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/h3fZYd8.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/eHeth83.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ORQDUQN.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/D6DuXKo.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ntGwz7s.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/afEXpvg.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QxWlYnM.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/AA9qzN3.jpg)

B-50D
(https://imgur.com/55FW1TI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/lWja5Yo.jpg)

B-50A
(https://imgur.com/PpwBgwE.jpg)

KB-50J
(https://imgur.com/bigQfli.jpg)

B-50B (I think like the B-29B, this omits the turrets that were on the A)
(https://imgur.com/MUdnZBM.jpg)

Tu-4 at the China Aviation Museum. I think these are turboprop conversions, because the Tu-4's radials sure don't look like that
(https://imgur.com/Vz5t6Ou.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Ln0yxSa.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/K6fH5Nd.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rnTKgBU.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QwJOMdy.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/r7nbiDI.jpg)

KJ-1 proposed AWACS conversion of the Tu-4. Supposedly the project never finished, and the display is a mock-up/conversion of another Tu-4
(https://imgur.com/gNG86zP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/MkRbZEF.jpg)

Actual Tu-4 at Morino
(https://imgur.com/Nl9Tc4l.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rfWSFEx.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/SQagNhX.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QiJRizh.jpg)

Vintage Tu-4 'Bull' photo
(https://imgur.com/AJkEZXB.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 October 2023, 06:25:52
That B-50 has a remarkably tall tail and rudder.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 18 October 2023, 13:47:00
The engine differences on the B-50 compared to the B-29.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 21 October 2023, 17:15:49
Now, that B-50 is something you just don't see enough of. Nice.

So, as in most things from that area, the KA-52's armor is shown to have...holes:

(https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1715388536495477197/photo/1)

Reportedly taken following the ATACMs strike by Ukranian forces on the airfield at Berdyansk.

I am till intrigued by the ejection system (see the squiggles on the top of the canopy? Those are the det-cords that blow the glass to allow egress.) on the KA-5# series. It doesn't seem to me to be helping save the aircrews to any noticeable degree, but I have yet to see an in-depth study on the matter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 21 October 2023, 18:15:15
Now, that B-50 is something you just don't see enough of. Nice.

So, as in most things from that area, the KA-52's armor is shown to have...holes:

(https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1715388536495477197/photo/1)

Reportedly taken following the ATACMs strike by Ukranian forces on the airfield at Berdyansk.

I am till intrigued by the ejection system (see the squiggles on the top of the canopy? Those are the det-cords that blow the glass to allow egress.) on the KA-5# series. It doesn't seem to me to be helping save the aircrews to any noticeable degree, but I have yet to see an in-depth study on the matter.

Twitter (sorry, 'X') seems to be blocking the hotlinking. I've re-hosted on imgur:
(https://imgur.com/hILpKXP.jpg)

B-52 prototypes with that nifty fighter-style cockpit like the B-47
(https://imgur.com/SZQYuuy.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/q8BNCTH.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/iPPCII8.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/sSPlCxQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Yd1Dlep.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/mOJo7lP.jpg)

Some big iron in the sun
(https://imgur.com/5LE4gdt.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 21 October 2023, 18:48:40
On the Ka-50/52 ejections - my guess is that it's actually quite difficult to initiate an ejection within safe parameters given the low flight altitude. Even zero-zero systems have limits for how much yaw/pitch angle and rate of descent they can compensate for and between the limits of human reaction time and the tendency for helos to start tumbling as a bad hit wrecks its control surfaces/rotors, I'm not sure most downed KA-50/52 pilots have time to realize they need to eject before it's too late to do so.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 21 October 2023, 19:36:46
If you're looking for a bit more discussion on the holes in that KA-52, Denys Davydov had a bit of discussion in one of his latest videos.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 21 October 2023, 20:07:57
Also with KA-50 ejection system, beside trust the det cord to blow the canopy safely, you also need to trust that those twin meat choppers above you are also blown away from the hub.  I'm not sure how much trust I would have in this multiple explosive setup.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 21 October 2023, 20:56:15
Also with KA-50 ejection system, beside trust the det cord to blow the canopy safely, you also need to trust that those twin meat choppers above you are also blown away from the hub.  I'm not sure how much trust I would have in this multiple explosive setup.

I have the feeling that the ideal ejection sequence is for the entire canopy to be jettisoned, and the through-canopy ejection is there because of time constraints when flying at low level. A number of planes seemed to have the option for either depending on how urgent it was to get out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejection_seat#Egress_systems

Watching the infamous video of a Hind being shot down early in the war, it hits the ground no more than 5 seconds after impact by MANPADS, and is in fact dangerously nose-down by 3 seconds. So the pilot would need near-instantaneous reactions to trigger the ejection in time to get out, and the delay may make it impossible for the second crew member to get out at all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 21 October 2023, 21:22:26
Neat seeing the B47 and the B52 compared together.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 21 October 2023, 22:22:10
So the pilot would need near-instantaneous reactions to trigger the ejection in time to get out, and the delay may make it impossible for the second crew member to get out at all.

Hell, half a second or less can be fatal for the second aircrew to egress. Look up Kara Hultgreen as an example.

On the Ka-50/52 ejections - my guess is that it's actually quite difficult to initiate an ejection within safe parameters given the low flight altitude. Even zero-zero systems have limits for how much yaw/pitch angle and rate of descent they can compensate for and between the limits of human reaction time and the tendency for helos to start tumbling as a bad hit wrecks its control surfaces/rotors, I'm not sure most downed KA-50/52 pilots have time to realize they need to eject before it's too late to do so.

Like I said, the ejection systems do not seem to be saving the aircrews, yes?  :grin:

If you're looking for a bit more discussion on the holes in that KA-52, Denys Davydov had a bit of discussion in one of his latest videos.

I didn't quite catch that part of his video about the airfield strike, but I did find it interesting he had already pinpointed the culprit of the Gaza hospital explosion through fair deduction. And that is absolutely all I'll say about that.

Neat seeing the B47 and the B52 compared together.

Indeed. And I never realized just how big the B-50 was, as compared to the -52, never having seen them together.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 21 October 2023, 22:33:26
Hell, half a second or less can be fatal for the second aircrew to egress. Look up Kara Hultgreen as an example.

Like I said, the ejection systems do not seem to be saving the aircrews, yes?  :grin:

It's probably as effective as manual bail outs of WW2 planes. Get hit at treetop height in a Typhoon or P-39/P-63, and you'd be riding it in as best you can even without the silly car doors. Supposedly one of the Ka-52s filmed being downed had a successful pilot ejection, but the gunner didn't make it, which isn't surprising. As with the F-14 example, that delay might be the difference between one swing and impacting before chute deployment.

Quote
Indeed. And I never realized just how big the B-50 was, as compared to the -52, never having seen them together.

It took me a moment to realize the plane in back was a KC-97. I think at the back of my mind, I knew that 4 radials + auxiliary jets + tip tanks was probably a B-50 derivative. I just hadn't realized how big it was relative to the jets (A bit shorter, but also a bit more wingspan than the KC-135)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 21 October 2023, 23:01:39
You sure that is a KC-97? I guess the tip-tanks would be the other two fuel booms (they had three so far as I know, but that was a bit into the grey area of my aircraft awareness/recognition skills)...

We have seen USN jets in retro/WWII colors, but not an S-3 methinks:

(https://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/11_22B.jpg)


Oh, and cheers on the KA-52 image save, chanman.  :embarrassed: The one time I don't preview a post...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 21 October 2023, 23:14:16
(https://i.redd.it/bycvu6bcegdy.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3398/5712298632_638664662c.jpg)

And just because, an image I have been looking for, for years, a blue disruptive A-7:

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/3e/87/68/3e876848c7bba295adeb71cea83ead53.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 21 October 2023, 23:14:58
You sure that is a KC-97? I guess the tip-tanks would be the other two fuel booms (they had three so far as I know, but that was a bit into the grey area of my aircraft awareness/recognition skills)...

We have seen USN jets in retro/WWII colors, but not an S-3 methinks:

(https://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/11_22B.jpg)


Oh, and cheers on the KA-52 image save, chanman.  :embarrassed: The one time I don't preview a post...

No, I'm not sure. Fuselage is too chunky and greenhouse doesn't look right. I checked again, and right role and family, but wrong family member. It's a KB-50J.

(https://imgur.com/m0vcZo4.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/1l7l2Rk.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/TnK0BK9.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ryys6j4.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/J8rH0Br.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/nKjUXOl.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 21 October 2023, 23:31:15
Good finds there of yet another aircraft seldom seen.

Interesting photo of a gaggle of A-7s with all differently colored "Light Gull Gray":

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50021296676_5f6ba77843_b.jpg)

So, you really can paint your miniatures whatever you want!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 22 October 2023, 07:42:22
Heck, I saw a video about a WWII Navy Squadron that had unauthorized nose art (right up until they had to switch carriers...).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Euphonium on 22 October 2023, 10:17:18
No, I'm not sure. Fuselage is too chunky and greenhouse doesn't look right. I checked again, and right role and family, but wrong family member. It's a KB-50J.

Love those pics! When did the USAF switch from drogues on the tankers to the boom system they use now, and what's the reason for the switch?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 22 October 2023, 11:11:22
Love those pics! When did the USAF switch from drogues on the tankers to the boom system they use now, and what's the reason for the switch?

Pretty early into the jet age - you can see in the picture with both the KB-50 and KC-97 that the KC-97 already has a boom. As for why...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_refueling#Flying_boom

SAC was interested in refueling bombers and the quantities of fuel needed to be transferred made the greater fuel flow of the boom very desirable. 1000 US gallons per minute for a KC-135 vs. ~300 for a KC-130's hose and drogue.

I imagine that using the boom where the connection is made by an operator steering the movable boom also makes more sense when refueling a large aircraft, which isn't as big of a mission for most other air forces
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 22 October 2023, 12:07:08
I have always maintained that the USAF is lazy, and their pilots don't want to put in the time to hook to a drogue*.

But that is not fair--parochialism perhaps--especially in light of a significant fleet of very large aircraft that are relatively un-maneuverable in close quarters and have large fuel tanks to fill. So, for them, the boom system makes sense, just as making a boom for a KA-3/6/18 is functionally unworkable/impossible for the Navy/USMC. At least the booms have a drogue system as a salve for interserviceability.


Have an A-6:

(https://cdn10.picryl.com/photo/1993/12/01/a-us-navy-usn-a-6e-intruder-connects-with-the-refueling-drogue-from-the-boom-54e6e7-1600.jpg)



*I bet some tired-ass Naval aviator who has made three bolters already on a stormy night in the middle of the Pacific would love to see his tanker fly a boom back to him or her, though...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 22 October 2023, 12:16:51
Good finds there of yet another aircraft seldom seen.

Interesting photo of a gaggle of A-7s with all differently colored "Light Gull Gray":

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50021296676_5f6ba77843_b.jpg)

So, you really can paint your miniatures whatever you want!
This picture is of Navy Reserve squadrons from RCVW-20 and 30, which is why there's at least three squadron's aircraft of the same type present in a single hangar. It's from the 1980's, when they were transitioning to the Corsair from the Skyhawk. A few years later, they would switch to the Hornet, or be decommissioned.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 22 October 2023, 12:52:46
*snip*
*I bet some tired-ass Naval aviator who has made three bolters already on a stormy night in the middle of the Pacific would love to see his tanker fly a boom back to him or her, though...
I suspect Naval Aviator pride would keep them from admitting that though... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 22 October 2023, 15:31:52
It's a pride that is well earned. And for the Naval Air Crew as well. I can only imagine, or have gleaned from association, a lot of naval air-ops is even more unsettling for them since for certain aspects of the flight (such as takeoffs, but primarily for our purposes here, landings/traps) they are observers trusting on the individual beside or in front of them. Once that pilot gets rattled, well, its kitty bar the door.


Because we don't get to see it much, this is what they get to deal with if a landing or takeoff doesn't go as planned:

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/07/09/4130965F00000578-0-image-a-31_1496825922254.jpg)

And that is a best-case scenario; daylight, a friendly ship nearby, and a few seconds to unass the aircraft. The ocean is a big place, and it's easy to get lost...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 October 2023, 16:03:30
What is that, a Dauntless?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 22 October 2023, 16:04:24
Heck, I saw a video about a WWII Navy Squadron that had unauthorized nose art (right up until they had to switch carriers...).

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/607892d0460d6f7768d704ef/1627403279467-EXBQ0YRI4TDUQ2P08E0P/BiteMe73.jpg?format=1500w)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cb/e2/b3/cbe2b3142dcf92b4babee229a9a52014.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7224/7355783092_85f0fcba71_b.jpg)

That was VF-27, which had a "cat from hell" visage painted around their cowlings. They were embarked aboard USS Princeton (CVL-23) and was scuttled during the Battle for Leyte on 24 OCT 44 (two days from now, seventy-nine years removed!) after taking a bomb into the hanger from a lone-wolf Japanese Judy. The fires spread and went quickly out of control (which came to be expected on the CVLs) and the ship was abandoned relatively soon. Sadly, she collided with some of the rescue ships and a secondary explosion did heavy damage to the surrounding ships (particularly USS Birmingham [CL-62]).

(https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/w/war-damage-reports/uss-princeton-cvl23-war-damage-report-no-62/_jcr_content/body/image_4.img.jpg/1427311532020.jpg)
(https://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineLibrary/photos/images/g270000/g270357.jpg)

An IJN D4Y-1 Judy:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Yokosuka_D4Y3_in_the_field.jpg)
One being restored in the U.S.:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yAKhfzG5kVg/ULySR6LrsgI/AAAAAAAAEh8/uSWfhaZPK78/s1600/D4YPlanesFame.jpg)

In any event, VF-27 was viewed askance due to its decidedly nonstandard F6Fs by many in its task force. Since nine Hellcats were airborne and thereby orphanded when the Princeton went down, they recovered aboard other carriers, and those captains/CAGs quickly got their revenge by painting out the offending markings (within hours, as I recall).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 22 October 2023, 16:06:50
What is that, a Dauntless?

Grumman TBF Avenger, midwar, judging by the scheme and markings (http://www.pmcn.de/English/USN%20Markings%20II/USN%20Markings%20II.htm).

EDIT: Remember, too, that the TBF had three crew, and one of them was well inside the fuselage which made it tricky to get out in the event of a ditching.

And, fun facts, George Bush flew one and was the youngest naval pilot at the time of his receipt of his Wings of Gold, and Paul Newman was a rear gunner aboard one. The aircraft was given its name prior to December 1941, and six served at Midway, though only one came back to the island and it was promptly declared unserviceable. They were from the Hornet's Torpedo 8 (LCDR Waldron commanding, and likely one of the best squadron commanders in the USN at the time, but no one will get to know since he didn't live long into his first contact), of a certain infamy (where Ensign George Gay was the only survivor of the shipbound contingent).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 23 October 2023, 00:11:50

That was VF-27, which had a "cat from hell" visage painted around their cowlings. They were embarked aboard USS Princeton (CVL-23) and was scuttled during the Battle for Leyte on 24 OCT 44 (two days from now, seventy-nine years removed!) after taking a bomb into the hanger from a lone-wolf Japanese Judy. The fires spread and went quickly out of control (which came to be expected on the CVLs) and the ship was abandoned relatively soon. Sadly, she collided with some of the rescue ships and a secondary explosion did heavy damage to the surrounding ships (particularly USS Birmingham [CL-62]).

(https://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineLibrary/photos/images/g270000/g270357.jpg)

Most of the sailors manning the hoses were killed minutes after the photo was taken, more men died on Birmingham than did on Princeton.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 October 2023, 00:38:20
Munitions explosion?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 23 October 2023, 06:15:44
Yes, shrapnel from Princeton killed more than two hundred men on Birmingham. Since cruiser had to return for repairs, but with intact propulsion, many of the wounded from other ships were transferred to Birmingham, I recall account from one of the Princeton aviators, who recalled chunks of flesh nailed to superstructure by shrapnel and deck dark from blood, it haunted him for years.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 October 2023, 10:30:08
I'll bet.  That's a pretty horrific image, especially if he personally knew any of the victims.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 25 October 2023, 14:19:39
B-21 photographed during taxi tests:

(https://images.spot.im/image/upload/q_70,fl_lossy,dpr_3,h_66,w_100,c_scale/v200/d9e61fe355d986f2010e5e4fbb34f3b1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 25 October 2023, 14:35:49
how certain are they it is a B-21, and not a B-2? they look fairly similar from a distance
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 25 October 2023, 18:05:50
True!  And how easy is it to assert one for the other? :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 25 October 2023, 20:05:48
The exhausts are much closer to the wing edge than the B-2, and not in trenches. Also the main gears have only two wheels as apposed to the B-2's four.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: wantec on 26 October 2023, 08:50:11
Location can also play a factor. The B2 roster is limited and the locations of most (if not all) are pretty well tracked. This could be a pic from the place where the B-21 is being built & tested
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 26 October 2023, 17:24:21
70's Brit documentary bit on Jags in Germany
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hpey7hBe8s

I'd love to see sci-fi settings with retro vibes carry through with grainy VHS fake documentaries introducing the mecha or starfighters or whatever of the setting  :grin:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 26 October 2023, 17:26:32
Watching the infamous video of a Hind being shot down early in the war, it hits the ground no more than 5 seconds after impact by MANPADS, and is in fact dangerously nose-down by 3 seconds. So the pilot would need near-instantaneous reactions to trigger the ejection in time to get out, and the delay may make it impossible for the second crew member to get out at all.
It was a Hind, they don't fly great without power
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 October 2023, 17:50:05
I've heard they don't always fly great even with power.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 26 October 2023, 21:33:04
Big bastards are fast though. And, down low and nose-on, there are few helos that look more frighteningly efficient at what they are intended to do.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 26 October 2023, 22:47:45
The National Mesueum of the United States Air Force has added an Su-27UB.

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/10/26/Su27-USAF-Museum-2-scaled.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1440)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 26 October 2023, 23:01:16
The National Mesueum of the United States Air Force has added an Su-27UB.

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/10/26/Su27-USAF-Museum-2-scaled.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1440)

The F-111 is about two feet longer, but optimized for supersonic dash as it is, it really doesn't have the Flanker's presence and span. The eye-popping part is the MiG-31 is another foot longer than the F-111, and the MiG-25 is 4 more feet longer than even that.

So the USAF worry that the MiG-25 was some kind of super dogfighter has me incredulously wondering who the hell thought that when looking at a jet 78 feet long[/il]

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 27 October 2023, 02:23:06
RAF Phantom training in the early 70s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5YEZHxCmuM
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 27 October 2023, 15:40:29
Did this as filler art for one of Gio's Niops fanfics. The joke, of course, is that the Battletech Torrent bomber is actually just a B-52 in disguise
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 27 October 2023, 17:28:17
Disguise?  I'd be hard pressed to even call it "a new paint job"... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Luciora on 27 October 2023, 18:13:26
Can't remember if i shared this before, but 3 planes, all 1/72 scale, a Privateer, Avenger and an A-10.  Bombloads have certainly changed since the early days.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 27 October 2023, 18:32:24
No kidding!  :shocked:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 27 October 2023, 20:39:56
Heh...

A Buff-J escorted by A10Cs with a KC-Z and a E7A flying in formations...

Bomber with CISW
Attack Ground Support
AWACS
Refueler

Ukraine could use such a force, but... Politics kills Catgirls!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 29 October 2023, 01:45:14
One of the Saab Gripen E prototypes has been sporting a reprofiled wing courtesy of reshaped control surfaces giving it more of a trailing trapezoid

Before:
(https://imgur.com/Xx9pR5r.jpg)

After:
(https://imgur.com/w1iOpJL.jpg)

I imagine it may have required tweaking the flight control software and FBW system. Wing alterations are pretty rare (unlike fuselage stretches...). You can't just say... give the F-35A the wings from the F-35C due to all of the engineering (hydraulics lines, etc.) involved. See also the cost overruns of the Mitsubishi F-2, which has a redesigned wing and different flight-controls among other alterations.

Beyond weird experimental craft like NASA's B-57s, only a handful of other cases come to mind. The F-111B, F-111C and FB-111 all have longer-span wings. The F-86 Sabre got the revised 6-3 wing partway through its life, and the later versions of the J-7 got a cranked-delta wing of increased span for more fuel and hardpoints

Before:
(https://imgur.com/HpOQ50S.jpg)

After:
(https://imgur.com/JvMJxQ4.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/mi3rVrQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/0AYoY2O.jpg[/img
[img width=800]https://imgur.com/X8uya2X.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 29 October 2023, 14:14:29
One of the Saab Gripen E prototypes has been sporting a reprofiled wing courtesy of reshaped control surfaces giving it more of a trailing trapezoid

Before:
(https://imgur.com/Xx9pR5r.jpg)

After:
(https://imgur.com/w1iOpJL.jpg)

I imagine it may have required tweaking the flight control software and FBW system. Wing alterations are pretty rare (unlike fuselage stretches...). You can't just say... give the F-35A the wings from the F-35C due to all of the engineering (hydraulics lines, etc.) involved. See also the cost overruns of the Mitsubishi F-2, which has a redesigned wing and different flight-controls among other alterations.

Beyond weird experimental craft like NASA's B-57s, only a handful of other cases come to mind. The F-111B, F-111C and FB-111 all have longer-span wings. The F-86 Sabre got the revised 6-3 wing partway through its life, and the later versions of the J-7 got a cranked-delta wing of increased span for more fuel and hardpoints

Before:
(https://imgur.com/HpOQ50S.jpg)

After:
(https://imgur.com/JvMJxQ4.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/mi3rVrQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/0AYoY2O.jpg[/img
[img width=800]https://imgur.com/X8uya2X.jpg)

You forgot one...though it never made it to production, the prototypes WERE converted from other airframes;

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YU7-hpErGDU/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 29 October 2023, 14:54:37
What's that one?  I'm not an aviator, so I have to ask...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 October 2023, 15:13:20
F-16 XL.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 29 October 2023, 15:46:37
Ah, thanks! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 29 October 2023, 17:30:57
Saab Grippen is such a great looking airplane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 29 October 2023, 21:06:47
Saab Grippen is such a great looking airplane.

Looks good, AND flies good.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 30 October 2023, 00:34:56
You forgot one...though it never made it to production, the prototypes WERE converted from other airframes;

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YU7-hpErGDU/maxresdefault.jpg)

Major structural changes too. 56" longer, 2-2.5 tonnes heavier, removal of ventral fins... it actually has a lot in common with the Su-34 where the modifications are really comprehensive enough that it should get its own designation as a derivative design.

The XL is mentioned briefly in Red Eagles : America's secret MiGs as it and the F-15E prototype were given some brief evaluation against the 4477th's MiGs. The F-16XL had eye watering roll rates, but it was mentioned that it rapidly bled energy during sustained turning, which isn't that surprising, since that's a common observation of tailless delta designs with their big wings.

Part of me wonders if the XL pilot was simply trying to fight it like a normal F-16 since it seems like it would have been too early in development for design-specific tactics to be developed. I suppose luckily for the prototype F-15E pilots, they still generally fly like other F-15s...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 30 October 2023, 16:57:05
Just add Hawke Hunter...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 October 2023, 17:27:48
Its too bad the F16XL couldnt come back like a Super Hornet from the Hornet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 01 November 2023, 14:52:06
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1jagsy.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 01 November 2023, 17:41:11
Its too bad the F16XL couldnt come back like a Super Hornet from the Hornet.
Very different purposes. The Super Hornet was to replace the aging A-6 and F-14 in a way that would get the Navy in as little trouble as possible with Congress during the Peace Dividend years.

The F-16XL started as a technology test program, that mutated into something else.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 01 November 2023, 18:16:05
FatGuy, that's an AMAZING pic! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 01 November 2023, 22:48:49
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1jagsy.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)

"Excuse me, sir. But I'm going to have to ask you to pull over and shut off your engine. Your overheating radiator is creating an unsafe...flying...condition."


Bur, for sure, that image is mesmerizing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Euphonium on 02 November 2023, 17:28:28
"Excuse me, sir. But I'm going to have to ask you to pull over and shut off your engine. Your overheating radiator is creating an unsafe...flying...condition."


Bur, for sure, that image is mesmerizing.

So is that what a badly overheated ASF would look like in atmosphere?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 02 November 2023, 17:33:58
Its why stealth is so expensive, it makes a cloud.
Great for grey sky of Michigan where I live because nobody would notice 4 small clouds flying in formation, not really stealth in the cloudless skies of places with nice weather.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 02 November 2023, 18:02:12
That's an aircraft pulling some serious Gs... they don't do that ALL the time... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 02 November 2023, 18:23:30
Excuse me...

I thought this was a Non-Smoking flight?

And don't call me Shurely either, or I'll get Ted Striker on you!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 04 November 2023, 18:25:07
Yeah, boy...F-35I intercepts cruise missile:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1720081401721270646 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1720081401721270646)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 04 November 2023, 18:44:58
And, sometimes, you make the road bumpy even if it wasn't to start with:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1720357317412327729 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1720357317412327729)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 04 November 2023, 19:03:09
And, sometimes, you make the road bumpy even if it wasn't to start with:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1720357317412327729 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1720357317412327729)

If the Eagle be rockin' don't come a-knockin'
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 06 November 2023, 20:27:36
Some WW1 crates. Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8, first flight 1916, 1650 built, 2-seat recon/bomber
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/A.W._F.K.8_%28Late_production_1%29.jpg/1280px-A.W._F.K.8_%28Late_production_1%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/A.W._F.K.8_%28Cockpit_area%29.jpg/1280px-A.W._F.K.8_%28Cockpit_area%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/A.W._F.K.8_%28Final_production_1%29.jpg/1024px-A.W._F.K.8_%28Final_production_1%29.jpg)

Airco DH.10 Amiens heavy bomber. I think this just missed the war, entering service in November 1918. 258 made and retired by 1923
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Airco_DH_10_ExCC.jpg/1024px-Airco_DH_10_ExCC.jpg)

Airco DH.9A late-war light bomber, first flight March, 1918. Somewhere over 4000 made
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Airco_D.H.9A_ExCC.jpg)

Airco DH.4 light bomber. First flight mid-1916, entered service March 1917. About 6300 made of which 4850 in the US
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Friends_of_Jenny_DH.4_side_view.jpg/1024px-Friends_of_Jenny_DH.4_side_view.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/EarlyDH4.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Airco_DH-4.jpg/1280px-Airco_DH-4.jpg)

Royal Aircraft Factory R.E.8. recon and light bomber. First flight June 1916. 4000ish made
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Royal_Aircraft_Factory_R.E.8_-_Duxford_Airshow_2012.jpg/1024px-Royal_Aircraft_Factory_R.E.8_-_Duxford_Airshow_2012.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/R.E.8_%28early_tail%29.jpg/1024px-R.E.8_%28early_tail%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/RMM_Brussel_RE8_2.JPG/1024px-RMM_Brussel_RE8_2.JPG)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/RE8_duxford_001.jpg/1024px-RE8_duxford_001.jpg)

Sopwith 1½ Strutter, first flight late-1915, entered service mid-1916. Almost 6000 made, over 3/4 by the French, interestingly
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Sopwith_1_2-1_Strutter-2006.jpg/1024px-Sopwith_1_2-1_Strutter-2006.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Sopwith_Strutter_RAFM.jpg/1024px-Sopwith_Strutter_RAFM.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/An_aeroplane_leaving_the_deck_of_the_Australia_on_a_reconnaissance_trip_%2813960807682%29.jpg/1272px-An_aeroplane_leaving_the_deck_of_the_Australia_on_a_reconnaissance_trip_%2813960807682%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/RAF_Sopwith_1_1-2_Strutter.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Sopwith_1_1.2_Strutter_S.85_BRU_Msm_14.04.00R_edited-2.jpg)

French Voisin VIII/LAP/LBP night bomber. Introduced late 1916, 1100 built
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Voisin_VIII_NARA_17342123.jpg/1280px-Voisin_VIII_NARA_17342123.jpg)

Voisin XI introduced 1917, 900 built
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voisin_X#/media/File:Voisin_XI_single-engine_pusher_bomber.jpg)

Caudron G.4, first flight 1915, 1400 made. Recon and bomber
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Caudron_G.4_%285%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Caudron_G.4_%283%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/NASM_-_Caudron_G.4.jpg/1280px-NASM_-_Caudron_G.4.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Caudron_G.4_sideview.jpg/1024px-Caudron_G.4_sideview.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Caudron_G.4_3-view_line_drawing.jpg/1024px-Caudron_G.4_3-view_line_drawing.jpg)

Bréguet XIV introduced May 1917, 8000 made
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Escadrille_BR_128_Br%C3%A9guet_14_B.2_on_8_March_1918_at_Champien_%28Somme%29_-_Fonds_Berthel%C3%A9_-_49Fi1098_%28cropped%29.jpg/1024px-Escadrille_BR_128_Br%C3%A9guet_14_B.2_on_8_March_1918_at_Champien_%28Somme%29_-_Fonds_Berthel%C3%A9_-_49Fi1098_%28cropped%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Br%C3%A9guet_14_A.2_side.jpg/1024px-Br%C3%A9guet_14_A.2_side.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Br%C3%A9guet_14_B.2_in_flight.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/111-SC-17776_-_NARA_-_55195644_%28cropped%29.jpg/1024px-111-SC-17776_-_NARA_-_55195644_%28cropped%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Breguet_14_A.2_powered_by_275hp_Fiat_111-SC-20273_-_NARA_-_55200250_%28cropped%29.jpg/1024px-Breguet_14_A.2_powered_by_275hp_Fiat_111-SC-20273_-_NARA_-_55200250_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 08 November 2023, 04:12:17
Say goodbye.

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/07/ROCAF-F-5E-TAKEOFF-scaled.jpg)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/taiwan-is-finally-saying-goodbye-to-its-f-5-tiger-ii-fighters
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 08 November 2023, 10:36:55
Say goodbye.

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/07/ROCAF-F-5E-TAKEOFF-scaled.jpg)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/taiwan-is-finally-saying-goodbye-to-its-f-5-tiger-ii-fighters

They had an interesting guest article yesterday too from a Canadian pilot using the F-5As as an advanced fighter trainer and how hard they were to mid-air refuel with their tiny wings and engines when heavily (okay, 'heavily') loaded with draggy external stores and the need for just a bit of afterburner to stay on station (same as SR-71s, except they could leave the final link up to the boom operator)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 November 2023, 13:29:36
How about a bunch of twin-engined WW2 fighters that never made it into production?

From the Soviets:
Tairov Ta-3
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/TairovTa3.jpg)

Polikarpov TIS
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/PolikarpovTIS.jpg)

Mikoyan-Gurevich DIS
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/MiG_DIS.jpg)

From the Poles, the PZL.38 Wilk
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/PZL.38_Wilk_4.jpg/1024px-PZL.38_Wilk_4.jpg)

The Italian IMAM Ro.57, of which 50-75 were actually made, but not until mid-late war
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Italian_IMAM_Ro.57_fighter_prototype_front_quarter_view.jpg)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.57#/media/File:Italian_IMAM_Ro.57_bis_fighter_in_flight.jpg)

The French SNCASE SE.100 which definitely has some Crimson Skies vibes going
(https://imgur.com/AXeIM7I.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vGlZc4d.jpg)

Grumman XP-50
(https://imgur.com/ezP44i3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vgtn3Lq.jpg)

The related Grumman XF5F Skyrocket
(https://imgur.com/hrtwkJw.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Grumman_XF5F-1_Skyrocket.jpg)

Gloster F.9/37
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Gloster_f9_37.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 November 2023, 13:40:59
What was the major reason they were rejected?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 November 2023, 13:48:48
What was the major reason they were rejected?

Germans, mostly.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 09 November 2023, 14:10:39
Germans, mostly.

Das nitch koser...

Should be more sensitive chanman. :police:

It was more lack of war production and scarcity of materials and workforce.

Tends to happen when one is distracted by local bombings and the need to one's self preservations during a crisis when it happens every week repeatedly.

Not harshing you personal, but just blurting out it's this or that is somewhat inconsiderate to those that created beautiful flying craft. It's a testimony that pictures or even partial remains still survive, most were reclaimed for other purposes and/or never survived past occupation.

Especially in today's light...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 November 2023, 15:01:52
Das nitch koser...

Should be more sensitive chanman. :police:

It was more lack of war production and scarcity of materials and workforce.

Tends to happen when one is distracted by local bombings and the need to one's self preservations during a crisis when it happens every week repeatedly.

Not harshing you personal, but just blurting out it's this or that is somewhat inconsiderate to those that created beautiful flying craft. It's a testimony that pictures or even partial remains still survive, most were reclaimed for other purposes and/or never survived past occupation.

Especially in today's light...

TT

You can check the project timelines. The programs were generally overtaken by events where events happened to be war with Germany, but also the lessons come out of the fighting that largely argued against dedicated twin-engine heavy fighters.

The Soviets and British did end up with the generally excellent Pe-2, Beaufighter, and Mosquito (and you can argue the A-20 on the US side), and the Ju-88 on the German side, but most of those are or were developed from high-performance bombers into more multi-role attack aircraft than designs meant to tangle in the air the way planes like the Me110 or Westland Whirlwind originally envisioned.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 November 2023, 15:06:37
F-16s don't usually look that small, but you can really see the difference when they're loaded up.

ROKAF F-16 with 4x AIM-120, 2x AIM-9, 2x drop tanks
(https://imgur.com/WPGcB92.jpg)

USAF F-15Cs with 4x AIM-120, 4x AIM-9, 2x drop tanks
(https://imgur.com/axsrJLO.jpg)

Spanish F/A-18 with 6x AIM-120, 2x AIM-9, 2x drop tanks, and a centerline sensor pod of some kind
(https://imgur.com/D7EkCfA.jpg)

Notably, I don't think I've ever seen F-16s using twin-rails for AIM-120 or air-to-air missiles on either the inner-wing pylons (4, 6) or fuselage side pylons (5L, 5R)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 09 November 2023, 20:01:34
Since F-15s are doing F-15ish things these days, they deserve a close-up:

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1jFKbL.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)

Supposedly taken in Wales, so almost certainly at Mach Loop.

(https://i0.wp.com/fightersweep.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Two_F-15I_Raam.jpg)

Just because F-15Is are always sexy. And they are definitely doing F-15ish things right about now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 November 2023, 20:03:24
Some old Merlin-powered warbirds taking to the skies (Hurricane, Spitfire Mk IX, P-51D)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGanW-Du1ec
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 09 November 2023, 20:09:15
Das nitch koser...

Should be more sensitive chanman. :police:

It was more lack of war production and scarcity of materials and workforce.

Tends to happen when one is distracted by local bombings and the need to one's self preservations during a crisis when it happens every week repeatedly.

Not harshing you personal, but just blurting out it's this or that is somewhat inconsiderate to those that created beautiful flying craft. It's a testimony that pictures or even partial remains still survive, most were reclaimed for other purposes and/or never survived past occupation.

Especially in today's light...

TT

Chanman is right. He who starteth a world war, reapeth the consequences...and if the consequences in this case were aircraft that never entered production, I'd say they were mild consequences indeed compared to everything else that happened from 1937-45 (let alone the preceding and following years and the avalanche of effects).

There is no need to be sensitive about it, or even to consider it insensitive. Especially in today's light.



Looove that Skyrocket. Talk about a 1930s-serial posterchild!

(https://www.avionslegendaires.net/wp-content/uploads/images/avion_militaire/Gxf5f-xp50-skyrocket-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Ruger on 09 November 2023, 20:13:06

Looove that Skyrocket. Talk about a 1930s-serial posterchild!

(https://www.avionslegendaires.net/wp-content/uploads/images/avion_militaire/Gxf5f-xp50-skyrocket-3.jpg)

Not to mention the favored fighter of the Blackhawks during WW2.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 09 November 2023, 22:13:09
You can check the project timelines. The programs were generally overtaken by events where events happened to be war with Germany, but also the lessons come out of the fighting that largely argued against dedicated twin-engine heavy fighters.

The Soviets and British did end up with the generally excellent Pe-2, Beaufighter, and Mosquito (and you can argue the A-20 on the US side), and the Ju-88 on the German side, but most of those are or were developed from high-performance bombers into more multi-role attack aircraft than designs meant to tangle in the air the way planes like the Me110 or Westland Whirlwind originally envisioned.
there was a lot of interest before the war in big heavy fighters. with heavy guns and beefy high endurance engines, as a counter to bombers. it shared a lot of mental DNA with the various 'turret fighter' concepts, where they envisioned fighters as basically sub-scale bomber like craft equipped with turreted guns. "destroyers" to the bomber's "cruiser". two exampels of which that actualyl saw combat being the Boulton-Paul defiant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulton_Paul_Defiant) and the Blackburn Roc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Roc). both of which proved terrible and air superiority missions and quickly saw near-retirement. a lot of the twin engine 'heavy fighter' programs started in the concept stage as turret fighters, and saw the turrets deleted early on when testing of the few that did get to prototyping got shown to be dubious at best. but the heavy fighter airframe idea had some appeal for its endurance and supposed durability. not to mention the possibility of multi-role use as a light bomber. so even as light speedy aircraft derived from racing plane technologies started dominating air to air battles in stuff like the spanish civil war, a lot of big heavy dual engined fighter concepts were still being developed.


image tax: Boulton-Paul Defiants. [The Article the images are from, if they don't load for others.] (https://www.historynet.com/why-britains-world-war-ii-turret-fighters-failed/)
(https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Defiant-no264-960_640.jpg)
(https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Defiant-Lead-1200x806.jpg)



Spanish F/A-18 with 6x AIM-120, 2x AIM-9, 2x drop tanks, and a centerline sensor pod of some kind
(https://imgur.com/D7EkCfA.jpg)

Notably, I don't think I've ever seen F-16s using twin-rails for AIM-120 or air-to-air missiles on either the inner-wing pylons (4, 6) or fuselage side pylons (5L, 5R)
do the F-16's even have the connectors for such racks?

and i believe that centerline pod is the AN/AAQ-28(V) Litening (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litening) targeting pod.




Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 10 November 2023, 10:19:12
do the F-16's even have the connectors for such racks?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon)

According to the tech, yeah. Depending on the mission.

"' Hardpoints: 2 × wing-tip air-to-air missile launch rails, 6 × under-wing, and 3 × under-fuselage pylon (2 of 3 for sensors) stations with a capacity of up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of stores "

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 November 2023, 11:02:29
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon)

According to the tech, yeah. Depending on the mission.

"' Hardpoints: 2 × wing-tip air-to-air missile launch rails, 6 × under-wing, and 3 × under-fuselage pylon (2 of 3 for sensors) stations with a capacity of up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of stores "

TT

I think he means for the twin AMRAAM racks. I don't know how universal pylons are. It's completely possible that the wiring exists for it, but physical limitations make their use pointless - on the F-16, the mid-wing stations look like they might not have the lateral clearance from the adjacent pylons. Unlike bombs, there's an expectation that AAMs might need to be fired while maneuvering
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 November 2023, 11:09:10
Just at the end of WW2 the Germans found the ideal configuration for a twin piston engine fighter with the Dornier Do 335 Pfeil. Had it not also been the dawn of the jet age, we'd probably have seen lots of fighters with this configuration.

(https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/64/2018/03/do335-pfeil.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Dornier_Pfeil2.jpg)

(https://www.aeroflight.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/do335-112.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 November 2023, 11:16:28
It's flown!

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/10/368404728_1163850991243733_7543843946062179468_n.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/10/370089958_884026799757999_1491349522391867410_n.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/10/386868694_324998403480532_4336957695502694522_n.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/10/B21-First-flight.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/10/b21-first-flight-2.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2023, 11:17:52
Just at the end of WW2 the Germans found the ideal configuration for a twin piston engine fighter with the Dornier Do 335 Pfeil. Had it not also been the dawn of the jet age, we'd probably have seen lots of fighters with this configuration.
What does the push/pull get you over a more normal configuration?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 November 2023, 11:19:47
What does the push/pull get you over a more normal configuration?

Much less drag compared to a conventional twin engine setup.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 10 November 2023, 11:20:28
It's also super quiet when you do see one not so high in the air...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 10 November 2023, 11:29:26
Though the concepts of Pogo and Salmon as early VTOL fighters come to mind, I wonder if this would have fruitation. Helicopters and the Osprey are the results of that concept.

I wonder if they'll present more in the future?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2023, 11:47:34
Much less drag compared to a conventional twin engine setup.
Ah, thanks!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 November 2023, 12:36:38
More:

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/10/image0.jpeg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/11/10/image1.jpeg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2023, 12:39:17
What's it towing?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 November 2023, 12:56:13
Selfie camera.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 November 2023, 13:07:14
What does the push/pull get you over a more normal configuration?

Pros:
- Less drag
- More benign engine-out performance (no asymmetric thrust)

Cons:
- All of the normal pusher prop issues - cooling the rear engine, harder bail outs, more dangerous crash landings, less efficient propulsion (rear prop is getting thoroughly disturbed air), engine accessibility issues, pitch/take off limits to avoid prop strikes
- Fuel feeds need to run both fore and aft
- Potential center-of-gravity or airframe structure issues since you've got heavy items at both ends with your lift in the middle
- Engines are going to limit where you can place control surfaces and how you connect the flight controls to them
- One of the usual benefits of twin-engine prop planes is that it frees up the nose for radar or a heavy armament or both, and potentially room in the rear for a big fuel tank. The push/pull layout kinda gets in the way of that

There's a reason it's such an uncommon configuration. But we do have the Cessna 337 Skymaster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epGK08BD5lE

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/An_air-to-air_left_side_view_of_an_O-2A_aircraft_flying_over_the_Empire_Range_near_Howard_Air_Force_Base%2C_Panama_DF-ST-85-09231.jpg/1024px-An_air-to-air_left_side_view_of_an_O-2A_aircraft_flying_over_the_Empire_Range_near_Howard_Air_Force_Base%2C_Panama_DF-ST-85-09231.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/Thai_Navy_Cessna_T337H-SP_Summit_Sentry.jpg/1024px-Thai_Navy_Cessna_T337H-SP_Summit_Sentry.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 November 2023, 13:10:34
What's it towing?

Static cone.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 November 2023, 13:18:50
(https://images.spot.im/image/upload/q_70,fl_lossy,dpr_3,h_100,w_79,c_scale/v200/29b3cbfd0ab9df66d60111b9e9d152d3)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2023, 14:08:57
Static cone.
Thanks again!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 10 November 2023, 16:49:44
Much less drag compared to a conventional twin engine setup.
Also eliminates torque problems of single-engine setup, without the roll rate disadvantage of wing-mounted engines.

Push-pull suffers from rather bad efficiency thought. IIRC losses are around 20-30%.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 10 November 2023, 16:50:21
i'd guess the static cone is meant as a radar target, since the aircraft itself is so stealthy. fitting it with a bunch of reflectors would change the aerodynamics and flight profile more than a towed bit of plastic. and first flights are generally done to see what sort of tweaks need doing to the aerodynamics and flight performance.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2023, 16:51:13
That would make sense...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 November 2023, 18:08:27
i'd guess the static cone is meant as a radar target, since the aircraft itself is so stealthy. fitting it with a bunch of reflectors would change the aerodynamics and flight profile more than a towed bit of plastic. and first flights are generally done to see what sort of tweaks need doing to the aerodynamics and flight performance.

I don't think that'd be an issue while flying with the pitot probe and gear doors among others open (there's something open up top as well).

Pretty sure it's one of these: https://simpleflying.com/test-plane-shuttlecock/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2023, 19:00:23
That's what Fat Guy said, isn't it? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 November 2023, 19:17:11
That's what Fat Guy said, isn't it? ???

Yeah, but I was replying to glitterboy who mentioned it as a radar target.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2023, 20:08:00
Roger! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 11 November 2023, 01:45:26
I suppose if you put Skibinski's Salvage, Battle Magic, and Hell's Black Aces in a blender with a dash of Crimson Skies, you would get something like this (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/commercial-enterprise-begins-air-to-air-refuelling-for-us-air-force/ar-AA1jJeM4?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=ae6e62216f2b41c486bc8f4eae0d4291&ei=21):

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1jJjA3.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 November 2023, 02:17:34
Makes me wonder how good the Mainstay is, with its combo AWACS and tanker capabilities.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 11 November 2023, 02:41:01
And cargo, and personnel...

EDIT: I numbly thought you were referring to the pictured KDC-10 for some reason. Eh. I'm sure Beriev would say the A-50 can do all those things simultaneously if asked...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 11 November 2023, 04:00:47
Makes me wonder how good the Mainstay is, with its combo AWACS and tanker capabilities.

Fuel is dense. KC-10s, and probably the KC-135s with their anemic original engines maxed out on fuel long before running out of volume, so you could probably pack on the AWACS stuff on there as long as it wasn't too heavy.

It's probably a reflection of limited Russian resources though. An AWACS that can tank its escorts kind of makes sense? But an air force usually needs far fewer AWACS and their mission profile maximizes endurance (China seems to have gone all-in on turboprops, and a number of countries operate or operated the E-2 as a land-based aircraft).

Tankers, meanwhile, need to be able to go fast enough to tank heavily laden tactical aircraft, which need to be moving fairly fast to generate enough lift to stay in the air (see https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/getting-a-grip-on-refueling-the-underpowered-cf-5-freedom-fighter for an example).

Also, while tankers do orbit to refuel other aircraft, they also need to cycle off and on to load more fuel, especially when gassing up a big strike package or a particularly large aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 November 2023, 04:04:46
I suppose if you put Skibinski's Salvage, Battle Magic, and Hell's Black Aces in a blender with a dash of Crimson Skies, you would get something like this (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/commercial-enterprise-begins-air-to-air-refuelling-for-us-air-force/ar-AA1jJeM4?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=ae6e62216f2b41c486bc8f4eae0d4291&ei=21):

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1jJjA3.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)

ACZero Theme intensifies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XH25Eis8XU&).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 11 November 2023, 12:10:20
Or Area 88.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 November 2023, 02:42:01
B-21 and B-2 both in the same area. Ol' Jack has his day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAWr6BC_A4w
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 12 November 2023, 11:30:47
B-21 and B-2 both in the same area. Ol' Jack has his day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAWr6BC_A4w

Someone's gonna squeal real good...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 November 2023, 11:40:05
The B-21 looks like a discount version of the B-2, but I guess it's what is needed for future needs.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 12 November 2023, 13:09:17
All of our warfighting gear needs to be cheaper in a fiscal sense. War is disastrous for everything, but most assuredly for equipment, and aircraft absolutely so. There hasn't been a major war amongst peer adversaries yet where combat aircraft have not ultimately been fungible line items.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 12 November 2023, 14:01:57
So what are you implying Failure?

That we Invade Mars or someone else?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 November 2023, 14:10:42
The B-21 looks like a discount version of the B-2, but I guess it's what is needed for future needs.

The B-21 is closer to what the B-2 would have looked like until it was decided that it needed the capability to fly lower level missions as well - IIRC, the extra set of sawtooth notches in the B-2 trailing edge are an aerodynamic concession to that requirement.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 November 2023, 14:13:15
All of our warfighting gear needs to be cheaper in a fiscal sense. War is disastrous for everything, but most assuredly for equipment, and aircraft absolutely so. There hasn't been a major war amongst peer adversaries yet where combat aircraft have not ultimately been fungible line items.

Helos especially, but as Ukraine demonstrates, it's the entire replacement pipeline - from flight school to regular rotation of experienced units (and retiring your best pilots from direct action to teach before they're killed or burned completely out) and hot production lines and caches of parts and munitions.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 12 November 2023, 16:44:21
So what are you implying Failure?

That we Invade Mars or someone else?

TT

I imply nothing. I state that the West's (and especially the United States's) insistence on overly expensive gear that eventually--edging more towards "quickly"--goes out of production will be detrimental in the event of a major conflict. And there will be a major conflict one day.

Put another way, could the US DoD be able to withstand the usage rate of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or even the mid-Cold War with today's combat aircraft, ships, and AFVs?

Chanman really does have the ultimate right of it--trained personnel and the underlying infrastructure for continued growth or at least station-keeping--but that departs from my original thesis.


But, you know, TT, invading Mars might not be a bad option. We need to expand to increase our long-term options as a species and part of an planetary ecosystem. We will likely have to recalibrate all these aircraft we are building, though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 November 2023, 18:46:35
bordering on a rule 4 issue there, perhaps take it to PM's if you feel you have to hash it out?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 November 2023, 18:52:08
So what are you implying Failure?

That we Invade Mars or someone else?

TT

He's implying that the ultimate purpose of warfighting gear is for fighting war, in order to both deter anyone else from starting a war and aid towards the successful prosecution of such if it occurs, regardless of who starts it or why.

That is a set of criteria that may or may not match up nicely to the criteria under which equipment is actually designed and procured, and no set of interests stands alone - they all trade off and interact with each other in many ways.

Plus, you know, affordable replacement costs and a hot production line help in case things happen. Accidents occur, weather happens, things malfunction, maintenance crews screw up, birds get in the way...

(https://imgur.com/XGIvzeu.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/GyKT1i0.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/S249kvy.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/SleRZ77.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/EER6XV7.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 12 November 2023, 19:01:38
EDIT: chanman, as ever, has beaten me to the punch. Sigh...  :laugh:


bordering on a rule 4 issue there, perhaps take it to PM's if you feel you have to hash it out?

Not really. I mention no countries nor political groups; I state a reality of the human condition. Wars will happen, and eventually they will be between peer-nations where the operational tempo is not controlled by one party because they are facing a lesser-equipped (but perhaps more motivated) enemy.

This is not a Rule 4 issue.

It is a statement of fact that if your combat aircraft cost umpteen tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, you will not be able to expend them at the rate of attrition we have seen in past conflicts. Modern combat equipment does not have to be lost due to enemy action alone. Pilot error or adverse operating conditions will take their toll every rotation, deployment, or year.

To whit: my express condolences to the families, friends, and comrades of the five US servicemembers who lost their lives in the Eastern Med yesterday. No information yet, but based on what has been released, I am expecting it to have been an E-2D.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/An_E-2D_Hawkeye_flies_over_Naval_Base_Norfolk_%2813315193084%29.jpg)
(https://www.defencetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/E-2D-Advanced-Hawkeye.jpg)
(https://nationalinterest.org/files/main_images/8233128346_eec55c0aae_k.jpg)
(https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/1/9/9/2083991.jpg?v=v40)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 12 November 2023, 19:12:07
(https://imgur.com/S249kvy.jpg)

     "Is it just me, Sergeant, or is the cloud ceiling awfully...low...this morning?"
     "You'll be fine, Lieutenant. Just a bit of fog. Just, ah, be careful when you open the canopy. And be careful when you light her up; it's been a challenge to check for FOD. Don't worry about the missing rudder, either. The -15s are tough birds."
     "Umm. Okay...?"
     "Oh, and please sign for the aircraft here, here, and here, sir. I'll see you i--when, you get back."



Niiice image, chanman, Wherever did you find it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 12 November 2023, 19:28:52
Cheers to the last surviving member of the British Bomber Command from WWII, Clifford Storr:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ww2-bomber-navigator-100-pays-tribute-to-comrades/ar-AA1jN3xt?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=7fea9c187ca64a169b9f8140f23a06aa&ei=43 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ww2-bomber-navigator-100-pays-tribute-to-comrades/ar-AA1jN3xt?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=7fea9c187ca64a169b9f8140f23a06aa&ei=43)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOU0N-4EOo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOU0N-4EOo)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 November 2023, 19:30:25
     "Is it just me, Sergeant, or is the cloud ceiling awfully...low...this morning?"
     "You'll be fine, Lieutenant. Just a bit of fog. Just, ah, be careful when you open the canopy. And be careful when you light her up; it's been a challenge to check for FOD. Don't worry about the missing rudder, either. The -15s are tough birds."
     "Umm. Okay...?"
     "Oh, and please sign for the aircraft here, here, and here, sir. I'll see you i--when, you get back."



Niiice image, chanman, Wherever did you find it?

Might as well list all the incidents:
1) 2008 B-2 crash - moisture ingress in skin sensors caused a FBW malfunction at takeoff. This is the only total loss of a B-2 (but not the only instance of damage). Crew ejected and survived
2) Aftermath of Hurricane Michael in 2018 when it hit AFB Tyndall. All the airworthy F-22s were evacuated, but obviously, not every plane is able to fly at every moment and 17 were left behind
3) There are numerous documented instances of fire suppression systems going off (I just searched for that and USAF). This one supposedly happened at Elgin in 2012 and was set off by sparks from a welder.  https://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/foam-system-discharges-accidentially-at-elgin-afb-hanger-oops/ There was another incident in 2014 that resulted in the death of a contractor
4) Belgian F-16 negligent discharge by mechanic and just so happened to hit another F-16 in 2018. https://theaviationist.com/2018/10/14/f-16-completely-destroyed-by-another-f-16-after-mechanic-accidentally-fires-cannon-on-the-ground-in-belgium/
5) 2016 at Guam. Crew claimed B-52H suffered numerous bird strikes at take off and aborted the takeoff. The drag chute malfunctioned resulting it overrunning the runway. 1 minor injury. The article linked says the investigation didn't turn up bird remnants, and the wings are about the most intact bits left, so who knows what spooked the crew into aborting the take off. https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/birds-b-52-bomber-crash-guam/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 November 2023, 19:52:48
F16's comments about a military using overly expensive equipment it can't afford to replace in combat is something that had been in the back of my head with the Serednya Slaviyan military, which had a microscopic budget compared to most nations and left me stuck with mechanized and light infantry more or less making up the whole force.  If you can't afford to lose it, you can't afford to use it, and that really shaped making that army...which has been in my head some more and won't be quiet.  I may resurrect that thread...meanwhile let's be on topic.

(https://cdn.britannica.com/57/91857-050-466A0AD2/US-Air-Force-formation-F-16-Fighting-Falcons.jpg)

A quarter of a billion dollars of airplane there...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 12 November 2023, 20:08:56
Might as well list all the incidents:
1) 2008 B-2 crash - moisture ingress in skin sensors caused a FBW malfunction at takeoff. This is the only total loss of a B-2 (but not the only instance of damage). Crew ejected and survived
2) Aftermath of Hurricane Michael in 2018 when it hit AFB Tyndall. All the airworthy F-22s were evacuated, but obviously, not every plane is able to fly at every moment and 17 were left behind
3) There are numerous documented instances of fire suppression systems going off (I just searched for that and USAF). This one supposedly happened at Elgin in 2012 and was set off by sparks from a welder.  https://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/foam-system-discharges-accidentially-at-elgin-afb-hanger-oops/ There was another incident in 2014 that resulted in the death of a contractor
4) Belgian F-16 negligent discharge by mechanic and just so happened to hit another F-16 in 2018. https://theaviationist.com/2018/10/14/f-16-completely-destroyed-by-another-f-16-after-mechanic-accidentally-fires-cannon-on-the-ground-in-belgium/
5) 2016 at Guam. Crew claimed B-52H suffered numerous bird strikes at take off and aborted the takeoff. The drag chute malfunctioned resulting it overrunning the runway. 1 minor injury. The article linked says the investigation didn't turn up bird remnants, and the wings are about the most intact bits left, so who knows what spooked the crew into aborting the take off. https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/birds-b-52-bomber-crash-guam/

Cheers. I remember the Belgian shootdown and have seen the B-52 image, but the rest are new to me, so thanks.

Kamas, it's not about losing them per se (it's going to happen), it's about being able to replace them within the confines of the war that concerns me most.

And, because this is a Corsairin' type of thread, have eleven in the air at one time. Michigan, 2019:

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=airshow%20footage&mid=BC6B0985830A1BC87202BC6B0985830A1BC87202&ajaxhist=0 (https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=airshow%20footage&mid=BC6B0985830A1BC87202BC6B0985830A1BC87202&ajaxhist=0)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 12 November 2023, 20:54:53
Only a quarter of a billion, Kamas?  That's a BARGAIN these days... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 November 2023, 21:00:19
F16, I see what you mean.  It doesn't help your military when it takes too long to build replacement equipment for combat losses...and as the RU-UA war shows, combat losses will come rapidly in a near-peer situation.  If you can't replace your losses in time, you won't have an army to fight with.

Daryk, I think that quarter billion was the combo-meal discount version!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 12 November 2023, 21:02:15
Combo-meals are bargain basement these days... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 November 2023, 22:09:48
Only a quarter of a billion, Kamas?  That's a BARGAIN these days... ;)

It's honestly probably even less. Capital depreciation is a thing and the USAF's fleet isn't young and has been run hard. That and unlike the ANG or some foreign users, they've had upgrades back burnered in favour of other platforms. They might have plenty of life yet. Or they might have so many hours now that they already have an appointment with the boneyard or in line for target drone conversion.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 13 November 2023, 13:55:41
35% scale model B-29 first flight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQyTTQLI10
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 13 November 2023, 14:29:22
I'm just wondering how the pilot gets in and out!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 13 November 2023, 14:44:01
I'm just wondering how the pilot gets in and out!

Looks like a side hatch on the left.

Also, it's claimed its first victim: a golf cart
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/347642
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 13 November 2023, 16:37:36
There was a mention about that in the YouTube comments, but no links or anything...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 13 November 2023, 20:49:32
There was a mention about that in the YouTube comments, but no links or anything...

From the accident report, ironically enough
(https://imgur.com/bLXWnxK.jpg)

P-51C Mustang. The US never formally adopted the Malcolm hood (think Spitfires or F4U Corsairs) for them, but the British made a field refit kit, and some US units in Europe acquired them. The framed canopy definitely gives them a bit more of a P-40 or Me109 feel, especially with the squared off wing and tail
(https://imgur.com/lTI0ZRc.jpg)

P-51B and C were essentially the same, just from different factories. A B/C with the Malcolm hood and a pair of D's
(https://imgur.com/bxDfOb3.jpg)

A Commonwealth Mustang. I think this one might have been Aussie-made?
(https://imgur.com/z0wwWSY.jpg)

The adorable Flying Legend scale model Tucano replica
(https://imgur.com/XQ4nOfI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ORAvNmr.jpg)

Go fast. Mike Patey's 'Turbulence' a custom racer built out of a Lancair Legacy kit plane with a 850 horsepower PT6 turboprop up front. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osYWr67CoOg
Had a catastrophic engine failure en route to Oshkosh this year. I think the image might be an earlier iteration? I've seen videos/photos of one of his planes also named Turbulence that looks like the same setup but from years ago.
(https://imgur.com/2ZpXRbQ.jpg)

Another seriously fast plane. Performance Turbine Legend (listed as Ackland Turbine Legend at Airliners.net). Another composite kit plane (this one looks to have far fewer built) and very high performance. Original engine looks like is a 575hp Chevy V8 (obviously that one isn't a turbine), but C-GUTT has a turboprop.

In 2003 with winglets and a PT6
(https://imgur.com/fbbmycJ.jpg)

By 2007, the winglets have been removed, and judging by the reprofiled cowling and relocated exhaust, has swapped the PT6 for a more fuel efficient and powerful Garrett
(https://imgur.com/1uAh0SW.jpg)

By 2013, it's got the snazzy camo, which seems to still be what it looks like currently.
(https://imgur.com/gXCs6cL.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vT0UEET.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/RzjN1vM.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/i3FzqKD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/9TTBKlP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/hy0oXHX.jpg)

Both it and the turbine Lancairs are seriously fast planes - slick, and even skinnier with tandem seating on the Turbine Legend, and without any of the combat gear of a WW2 fighter - hundreds of pounds of weapons and armour, and with far smaller wings for maximum speed and efficiency over maneuverability or external payload. They only weigh 1-1.5 tonnes, whereas even an early-warly Spitfire is over 2.5 tonnes loaded, and the last ones were at 4.5 tonnes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 13 November 2023, 21:06:31
Someone made a scale model Tucano? ???

I didn't think they'd been around that long or had that much appeal!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 13 November 2023, 21:07:25
Those are nice, and very interesting private planes.


In sadder news, it appears that the aircraft lost in the Med was a special operations helo, an MH-60:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-special-ops-aviators-who-fly-delta-force-door-kickers-killed-in-crash-in-eastern-mediterranean/ar-AA1jRasc?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=a6313171859349e18cddc86cabf52abb&ei=13 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-special-ops-aviators-who-fly-delta-force-door-kickers-killed-in-crash-in-eastern-mediterranean/ar-AA1jRasc?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=a6313171859349e18cddc86cabf52abb&ei=13)


So, not at all the E-2D I posited earlier. I wish they would have said it was just a Blackhawk and left it at that. But, you know, OPSEC is just a suggestion nowadays.

Either way, condolences to all affected.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 13 November 2023, 21:11:34
Some of us (at least) are working to bring OPSEC back as more than a suggestion...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 13 November 2023, 21:16:24
Some of us (at least) are working to bring OPSEC back as more than a suggestion...

Bless you, brother.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 13 November 2023, 21:32:54
We need all the help we can get!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Euphonium on 14 November 2023, 12:37:16
Video of a light plane that overshot the runway and hit a passing car.
Fortunately the report states that no one was seriously injured.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-67411262 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-67411262)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 14 November 2023, 19:04:32
Yikes!  That could have been SO much worse!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 November 2023, 02:31:43
The YF-32 after several iterations of mission creep and performance changes.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-_ZMRoXEAAqAsy.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 16 November 2023, 03:51:46
The YF-32 after several iterations of mission creep and performance changes.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-_ZMRoXEAAqAsy.jpg)
Seems legit! :cheesy:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Elmoth on 16 November 2023, 04:01:44
Ugly as hell
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 November 2023, 11:09:23
The YF-32 after several iterations of mission creep and performance changes.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-_ZMRoXEAAqAsy.jpg)

That is one huge air intake.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 16 November 2023, 11:34:24
The other de Havilland Comet - the DH.88 Comet racing plane

(https://imgur.com/v5C7MQa.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/DH_Comet_-_Little_Gransdden_2019_%2848672397476%29_%28cropped%29.jpg/1118px-DH_Comet_-_Little_Gransdden_2019_%2848672397476%29_%28cropped%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Comet_racer.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/U6GC92y.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 16 November 2023, 11:49:04
Pushers. I get the feeling that there was a moment in the early-mid 80s where a number of plane designers got really infatuated with the Kyushu J7W Shinden and the pusher/canard layout.

Avtek 400 prototype - designed by Al Mooney (maybe better known for his general aviation aircraft) in his final years. Made an appearance in Airwolf
(https://imgur.com/HpUAXgr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Vy5lcu1.jpg)

AASI Jetcruzer - a few prototypes made, but I think it got held up getting certification. It looks a bit like a small single-engined Starship
(https://imgur.com/pJNhKzb.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Jetcruzer_500E.jpg/1024px-Jetcruzer_500E.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/A3sz2bG.jpg)

OMAC Laser 300. 3 built in the early 80s. Similar story to Jetcruzer
(https://imgur.com/N6nMduZ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/qoz0SES.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/tWRahme.jpg)

And of course, Beech Starship
(https://imgur.com/mGx4pqQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/xnxL4RF.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/mdXPliv.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/fUhJ63J.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/0GcDBqo.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 16 November 2023, 17:12:50
Man, some of those planes must have parked for a WHILE.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 November 2023, 18:02:46
And another pusher, the Rutan Long-EX.  Probably best known for being the plane that John Denver died in.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/NOAA-Long-EZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 17 November 2023, 17:19:40
I never would have thought they'd try this: https://www.cnn.com/travel/boeing-787-dreamliner-lands-antarctica/index.html
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 17 November 2023, 18:58:32
What's most interesting to me on that is the landing gear. Commercial landing gear isn't as rugged as military, like the C-17 and C-14, for operations like the ice runway.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 17 November 2023, 19:00:06
They got there from Capetown and back on a single tank of gas, though... I guess that made the risk worth it...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 17 November 2023, 19:04:02
Also they were nowhere near a full load.  12 tons of cargo is about a fifth of the max load of a 787, and I can't imagine the low number of passengers added that much more.  Plus, they were landing (and taking off) with only a half tank of gas...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 17 November 2023, 19:31:14
Also they were nowhere near a full load.  12 tons of cargo is about a fifth of the max load of a 787, and I can't imagine the low number of passengers added that much more.  Plus, they were landing (and taking off) with only a half tank of gas...

honestly i suspect they'll never try to fly that route with a full load.. the lighter the load, the less gas it'll need to make the trip.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 17 November 2023, 20:00:43
Good point!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 17 November 2023, 23:29:44
It's a little over 2600 miles from Cape Town to Troll Station.  Loaded with payload a 787-9 can fly 9000 miles as some of the longest scheduled flights. 12 tons of cargo, and 45 passengers is a pretty easy flight. A couple of years ago a Airbus 340 did the same flight.


The longest scheduled flight of a 787 is Perth, Australia to London UK.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA9/history/20231117/1130Z/YPPH/EGLL
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 November 2023, 23:51:49
So here's a mini-poll.  Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jets, do you prefer the rounded French nose cone or the pointy German one?

French:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Alpha_Jet_-_RIAT_2007_%282544737153%29.jpg/640px-Alpha_Jet_-_RIAT_2007_%282544737153%29.jpg)
(https://aeropedia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Dassault-Dornier-Alpha_Aeropedia-The-Encyclopedia-of-Aircraft-1170x570.jpg)

German:
(https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/1/5/2/6755251.jpg?v=v476352deb31)
(https://solo-alphajet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/8.jpg)

Personally I'm more fond of the pointy nose, it just looks faster - even if it's a subsonic aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 November 2023, 00:58:21
I think the rounded nose fits the rest of the aircraft a little better.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 18 November 2023, 03:44:49
So here's a mini-poll.  Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jets, do you prefer the rounded French nose cone or the pointy German one?

French:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Alpha_Jet_-_RIAT_2007_%282544737153%29.jpg/640px-Alpha_Jet_-_RIAT_2007_%282544737153%29.jpg)
(https://aeropedia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Dassault-Dornier-Alpha_Aeropedia-The-Encyclopedia-of-Aircraft-1170x570.jpg)

German:
(https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/1/5/2/6755251.jpg?v=v476352deb31)
(https://solo-alphajet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/8.jpg)

Personally I'm more fond of the pointy nose, it just looks faster - even if it's a subsonic aircraft.

Pointy nose only with the splinter camo. Also, I made a typo in the other thread. Obviously Alpha Jets would be DEFA and not ADEN cannon. Same difference! Also, they seem to be popular commercial aggressor aircraft, flying with both Top Aces and Qinetiq

(https://imgur.com/Ezd97oA.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/6d6sPNc.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Rog9yeQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/8aE3qRI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/k1azrQV.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/4auK8yl.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 18 November 2023, 06:27:59
It depends on what's behind the nose cone to me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 18 November 2023, 10:27:24
My first reaction was the rounded nose, but as I looked at the images longer, the pointed nose is etching away at me.

Really, I am with Daryk insofar as the functionality wins out for me on this one. I believe the German aircraft had more utility, especially at the outset. According this website (https://simpleflying.com/dassault-dornier-alpha-jet-complete-guide/):

"Although the Alpha Jet came in different variants, here is a tip on recognizing the two main types of this successful fighter jet. Alpha Jets with a rounded nose were used for training purposes. Indeed, a round nose delivers enhanced stability during the flight stage, an advantageous benefit for training pilots. Conversely, a sharp nose is the distinguishing feature of the attack version of this aircraft."

In the meantime, have an Alpha Jet with delusions of being a Big Cat:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Alphajet-N88XA-071206-02-12.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/6d6sPNc.jpg)

And this...this is a beautiful aircraft. I shall be stealing this scheme.



Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: rebs on 18 November 2023, 19:43:58
(https://scontent.fdet1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/402897199_664173355866060_514354401329988990_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=k0wziHIMwcEAX-JfiL7&_nc_ht=scontent.fdet1-2.fna&oh=00_AfCowDvLUC6ohqRwH-dLapIcOxrx9MqSBM8fkh9a-UNY0w&oe=655E5C05)

Just thought I would share.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 18 November 2023, 21:25:34
That's a pretty good reason.

And it's always the most expensive plate they break, too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: rebs on 18 November 2023, 21:27:55
That's a pretty good reason.

And it's always the most expensive plate they break, too.

And the plastic cup doesn't do it for them, only the glass ones will work, lol

Edit: Unless you were enjoying what was in the plastic cup, then all bets are off.  THEY KNOW!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 19 November 2023, 20:10:22
Some of us (at least) are working to bring OPSEC back as more than a suggestion...
Good Luck...  DC leadership doesn't care about..  my household can tell you of my rant on Abbottabad raid and then fact they said who did it before they got back stateside.   And the Books and Movie afterward...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 19 November 2023, 20:16:22
So here's a mini-poll.  Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jets, do you prefer the rounded French nose cone or the pointy German one?
Pointy Nose
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Elmoth on 20 November 2023, 07:23:41
Rounded for me. If we only talk aesthetics.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 20 November 2023, 08:48:39
i have to say i think the rounded looks better, but i'm wondering what the difference is beyond appearance? does the military version have additional sensors in the nose or something, or was it just a visual recognition feature?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 20 November 2023, 09:10:24
The German "pointed nose" has better/more well-defined ground attack abilities. Never a mention that the French "rounded nose" has an edge in A2A, that I have found.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 20 November 2023, 13:30:58
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/78hqknKq8P4

Kitbash of an X-29 with F-20 kit parts in a 1980s F-16 paint job. He's got multiple longer videos about the process including all the ways an F-29 wouldn't actually be feasible  :cheesy:

Still though, It really brings those Stingray ASF vibes, no?  :grin:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: rebs on 26 November 2023, 03:23:31
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kvO66.img?w=534&h=300&m=6)

Here's an interesting short read about when the Harrier II's were retired and sold to the USMC to be used as spare parts. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/why-the-legendary-harrier-ii-jet-was-retired-by-the-raf/ar-AA1kvH1a?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=6118401f49e848e489acd32cf8ffa6a8&ei=43
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 26 November 2023, 06:04:32
That was a remarkably low price!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 November 2023, 18:54:35
Only 2.4 million apiece, that's pretty damn cheap for a modern fighter yeah. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 26 November 2023, 22:52:21
Only 2.4 million apiece, that's pretty damn cheap for a modern fighter yeah.

cheap enough Pepsi could finally give that kid his fighter plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 27 November 2023, 19:35:43
I stumbled over this, and thought I should share
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 27 November 2023, 20:06:48
Spooky?  That doesn't look like a C-130, though... ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 27 November 2023, 20:23:31
Spooky?  That doesn't look like a C-130, though... ???
Spooky the AC47 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_AC-47_Spooky) model.. also know as Puff, the Magic Dragon in Vietnam.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EuThvjefCTk/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 27 November 2023, 20:25:15
Ah, I didn't realize Puff had the same technical call sign as the later version!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 27 November 2023, 20:34:48
Gunship family
AC47Spooky (6 of these are Basler BT-67 [AC-47T] still flying and fighting in Colombian Air Force) 
AC119 Stinger
AC-130A, E, & H Spectre
AC130U Spooky
AC30W Stinger II
AC130J Ghostrider (current model USAF)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 November 2023, 12:41:51
(https://images.spot.im/image/upload/q_70,fl_lossy,dpr_3,h_89,w_100,c_scale/v200/d82e1c3ed408a100822a7f6b3c973932)

It was actually acting as a tug, not actually towing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 28 November 2023, 18:08:07
53s are powerful, but not quite THAT powerful... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 November 2023, 02:13:36
Neither is a Citroen C3, but but Clarkson made it happen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6N-zitUQ3M) - even the tiniest of tugs will stack up over time. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 29 November 2023, 03:47:49
You know, the F-16 reminds me of the MiG-21 where all of the additional conformal fuel tanks and avionics spines and external tanks makes it easy to overlook just how slick the original design is when flying clean.

(https://imgur.com/cg3zAng.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/jKa9AWb.jpg)


MiG-21 'Bison'
(https://imgur.com/HjBHBBq.jpg)

'Lancer'
(https://imgur.com/GJcZ75o.jpg)

Early MiG-21F-13 (Vietnam War-era, like the original but with missile capability added)
(https://imgur.com/x7jXc65.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/HMzxsAr.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 02 December 2023, 19:34:17
Good article (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/ah-64-apache-vs-ah-1z-viper-which-is-the-ultimate-attack-helicopter/ar-AA1kTNFj?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=a6ba429c730541f6930cc020d0745c6d&ei=13) on the differences between the AH-64E and AH-1Z. Other than the recurrence of the term "rotar".   :rolleyes:

Plus, it has pictures!

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kTXcO.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kTXcP.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kTUEH.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kTZdQ.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kTPLj.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kTL1D.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1kTPLm.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg)


You know, the F-16 reminds me of the MiG-21 where all of the additional conformal fuel tanks and avionics spines and external tanks makes it easy to overlook just how slick the original design is when flying clean.

You tell the truth, and that second F-16 is a purty beast indeed. But the F-16I has a certain je ne sais quoi:

(https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/9/9/2/1228299.jpg?v=v40)

One with stars and bars (https://www.airliners.net/photo/Israel-Air-Force/Lockheed-Martin-F-16I-Sufa/1228299), which you don't see every day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 02 December 2023, 19:50:15
Something  (https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/1-dead-4-injured-in-helicopter-crash-at-Texas-A-M-1746500.php)you don't see every day:

(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/04/74/52/1297038/4/ratio3x2_960.webp)

UH-60 crashing at Texas A&M in early 2009.

Or an AH-64 going the wrong way:

(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/an-ah-64-apache-helicopter-crashed-stocktrek-images.jpg)

And a short video of a Sea King crashing upon approach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDtvvT5xv7Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDtvvT5xv7Q)

Quote from: From the source
This video is from the destroyer USS Cushing, on station in the Northern Arabian Gulf. Miraculously, all seven passengers onboard were recovered. Note how the tail rotor seems to seize or stop during the approach, causing the body of the helicopter to rotate out of control.

Dangerous business, flight ops.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 02 December 2023, 21:01:59
Very true!  Some plat camera footage I saw as it happened, shortly before I went straight to the bridge (they turned off the feed right after it went into the catwalk): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkH32mf_iVE
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 02 December 2023, 21:11:33
Any sailor or pilot who says they aren't afraid of the weather is a damn liar
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 03 December 2023, 04:25:06
Apache pilots shows off in Afghanistan, fortunately there were no casualties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FguAOoUg3ZY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FguAOoUg3ZY)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 December 2023, 05:10:25
Any sailor or pilot who says they aren't afraid of the weather is a damn liar
Very true!  I lost count of the number of waterspouts I saw off the Virginia Capes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 December 2023, 05:44:34
Any sailor or pilot who says they aren't afraid of the weather is a damn liar
What about the bubbleheads?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 03 December 2023, 05:59:53
Unless they're on final patrol, they gotta surface some time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Chicoutimi_(SSK_879)#October_2004_fire
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 December 2023, 07:06:23
I've felt the deck pitch deep under a typhoon, and subs on the surface are very vulnerable to sea state.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 03 December 2023, 12:03:47
What about the bubbleheads?
Unless you can feel it at patrol depth, weather didn't matter much in my experience.

Of course, being in port, 35 F and rainy is the most miserable place I've been.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 December 2023, 12:34:47
35 and rainy is shorts, a windbreaker and scarf for me these days.  The worst I've experienced is dry dock in winter at Groton, CT.  I gave up my rack and retreated to the wardroom (which had a portable heater blowing into it).  The bench wasn't really comfortable, but that little bit of extra heat made ALL the difference...  When the steam's out, boats are COLD.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 December 2023, 14:06:09
A big mass of metal sitting in cold water?  That makes sense.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 December 2023, 14:11:35
Worse... a big mass of metal sitting in the cold air for weeks on end.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 03 December 2023, 14:42:54
It certainly puts all those 19th Century Northwest Passage explorers getting iced-in into perspective. A large mass of wood in even colder weather for months is almost certainly hellish!

No matter what, cold is cold. I feel for you guys. I wouldn't want to be on a boat or ship for a long period regardless of the weather. :wink:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 03 December 2023, 15:17:27
Rough landings for that COD and Apache both, but eminently worse for the latter. Glad everyone at least survived the paired experiences.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 December 2023, 18:06:38
It certainly puts all those 19th Century Northwest Passage explorers getting iced-in into perspective. A large mass of wood in even colder weather for months is almost certainly hellish!

No matter what, cold is cold. I feel for you guys. I wouldn't want to be on a boat or ship for a long period regardless of the weather. :wink:

Wood doesn't conduct cold as readily as metal does, but yeah.  Especially since due to the flammability of wooden ships there were typical serious restrictions on fires.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 03 December 2023, 20:23:05
Indeed. The point is, being on a ship in cold weather is probably unfortunate.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 03 December 2023, 22:18:45
Wood doesn't conduct cold as readily as metal does, but yeah.  Especially since due to the flammability of wooden ships there were typical serious restrictions on fires.
IIRC several of the later ones had steam engines aboard. not to run propulsion, but to generate hot water in the boiler, which would be circulated through pipes around the ship to keep things warm. and to help cook hot beverages and food.

didn't help the Franklin expedition in the long run though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 December 2023, 23:58:42
That's because the pipes were lead.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 December 2023, 00:16:50
So was the canned food.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 04 December 2023, 01:14:59
The lead soldering of the tin cans was exponentially worse than the lead pipes, whose danger is grossly overstated anyway, as lead pipes wouldn't leak more than trace amounts in the lifetime of user and that is not taking into account mineral buildup in the pipes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 04 December 2023, 04:04:30
Lead pipes, and lead solder, weren't the problem. Lead doesn't dissolve easily in water. The problem is mild acids. Consider that the Romans used lead cups to hold wine & drink wine out of, and lead bowls to boil down unfermented grape juice. Both lead to the formation of lead carbonate, which dissolved easily, and had a pleasant sweet taste of its own which the Romans liked.

SO depending on what was in the tin, this may not have been a problem. Early tins weren't tin - they were iron, and rusted, which was bad for the food inside. So they gave it a 'wash' of tin, which prevented rusting - but if you dented the can, this broke the layer, which led to the iron underneath rusting, and the food spoiling. Remember, fellow oldies, being told not to pick dented cans? That's the memory of that.

Cans now are steel (which doesn't rust unless badly made, or badly treated), or aluminium (which doesn't rust due to forming a protective layer of oxide.) Either way, denting a modern can lightly is not a risk.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 04 December 2023, 10:01:32
further discussion of it probably belongs in the naval thread, since it has no real relation to aircraft.
link:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,83041.msg1978358.html#msg1978358
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 04 December 2023, 12:09:27

Frankenbird (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-air-force-is-trying-to-save-2-severely-damaged-f-35s-by-merging-them-into-a-single-franken-bird-aircraft/ar-AA1kWH5N?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=1bd022a9d29542c7a99245865a44218e&ei=70)

Something from a news feed I get... thought I share.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 04 December 2023, 13:44:43
is cobbling together intact chassis parts from damaged aircraft something normal for the airforce, or is this something they're doing because of the low number of F-35's they currently have in service?

(also.. did they ever find that missing F-35?)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 04 December 2023, 18:20:48
It happens more often than you would think, going back to at least WWII, where it was exceedingly commonplace.

The one where the pilot landed and called 911? Sure, they found that one (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/09/19/marine-corps-fighter-jet-lost/70898403007/).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 04 December 2023, 19:12:22
is cobbling together intact chassis parts from damaged aircraft something normal for the airforce, or is this something they're doing because of the low number of F-35's they currently have in service?

(also.. did they ever find that missing F-35?)

They aren't that low. They already have more F-35s than Strike Eagles or Raptors. I suspect it's much more of an experiment for the salvage and repair teams to figure out how feasible it is and what unexpected obstacles they encounter. Given the number of F-35s the USAF has /is getting, more will invariably be damaged, so they might as well find out what degree of damage can be salvaged between different airframes and what to write off now that they have the chance to try.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 05 December 2023, 13:18:29
I think this is the last of Taiwan's F-16s to go through the Block 70/F-16V upgrade process. The whole test flights in yellow primer, interestingly, mostly reminds me of the PLA, or at least it feels that way since test/new aircraft there seem to often get photographed while flying around in primer.

(https://imgur.com/qwNV4Am.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/2HFM1d3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/EbGJJI2.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ulXqS85.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 December 2023, 18:04:23
Why is it a two-seater?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 December 2023, 19:42:07
Why is it a two-seater?
the V's are upgrades of both the one seater F-16A's and the two seater F-16B's. they upgraded all of their old F-16's, and apparently are buying another 66 new build aircraft of the same specs.

(they wanted F-35's, but cost and export red tape meant they couldn't, so they settled for upgrading the F-16's and ordering more to replace their old F-5's)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 11 December 2023, 01:14:32
Have a freshly restored Corsair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jh0-a2ju0
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 12 December 2023, 12:42:44
I need to "bump" this up a bit...

BUMP!

(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/406847754_1020823915656711_2409683150106360268_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=W0rNCs9tdUkAX-8PJjo&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfDJWa2Skcc_2URUK1DAJYUmOrmJHiixMy9d9hM4ZLTfEA&oe=657D0674)
LT Pete "Maverick" Mitchell and LTJG Nick “Goose” Bradshaw

While on exersices, the Joe team encounters an enemy Viper Pilot in manouvers questionable to say...

TT
(From Facebook Alpha Check Point, a page I follow... ya ol' grognards need a memory and a laugh! Like me...  :grin: )
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 December 2023, 16:07:58
The Pepsi dispenser is jammed again?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 12 December 2023, 16:57:51
The Pepsi dispenser is jammed again?
(https://s26162.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Screen_181008_194624-1.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 December 2023, 17:22:33
The Pepsi dispenser is jammed again?
(https://i.imgur.com/XS5LK.gif)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 12 December 2023, 18:47:17
ALL the memes! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Failure16 on 12 December 2023, 18:51:54
Have a freshly restored Corsair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jh0-a2ju0

You, sir, are a man of taste and good-breeding.

Hmm. VBF-10 tail markings, during the Okinawa campaign, a nice choice and a little esoteric. Not sure about the roundel around the star (which was historically darker than the airframe if it appeared at all during that timeframe), but everyone involved did light-years better than I could ever do! Congratulations and my thanks to everyone that was a part of that magnificent feat of restoration. Something to be proud of, and I am very glad to see it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 12 December 2023, 19:01:03
That was indeed awesome, but I'll say that engine definitely sounded 73 years old after landing...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 12 December 2023, 20:16:23
That was indeed awesome, but I'll say that engine definitely sounded 73 years old after landing...

considering nobody has made one of those in a lifetime?  (big radial engines like that)...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 December 2023, 21:38:13
(https://i.imgur.com/XS5LK.gif)

Since I hang out on a lot of forums and Discord servers that are populated heavily by people who are younger than I am, it's nice being somewhere where I can make a reference to something from the 80s and actually have people be familiar with it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 December 2023, 23:42:37
considering nobody has made one of those in a lifetime?  (big radial engines like that)...

At least the Double Wasp had a long and prolific post-war life, staying in production to 1960. Probably makes for an easier restoration and better parts availability than most other big pistons
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 14 December 2023, 13:08:50
A farewell to the Buffalo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBSWZtMS-sw

de Havilland Canada's STOL aircraft really are flying utility trucks
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 14 December 2023, 20:25:40
Interesting!  Thanks for the link! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 15 December 2023, 02:30:35
Gloster F.5/34 - very Zero-like, including the vertical stabilizer being set notably forward of the horizontal stabilizer. You can view it as fairly comprable to the Hurricane - part-fabric, maneuverable, just a bit over 300 mph top speed, and with better visibility with the early bubble canopy. Of course, first flight was also 9 months after the Spitfire. In the end, I think the Hurricane was the correct choice, and using the Merlin engine for both Spits and Hurricanes probably simplified life a lot.

The Merlin, of course, also had plenty of room to grow. I'm not sure how much additional room for improvement was left in the Bristol Mercury considering the design dates back to 1925 while the Merlin was brand new in 1936. Interestingly, a very similar limitation the Zero also had.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/15_Gloster_F.5-34_Fighter_Bristol_Mercury_IX_%2815812158196%29.jpg/1024px-15_Gloster_F.5-34_Fighter_Bristol_Mercury_IX_%2815812158196%29.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/V5bPr2z.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/IiiWlrH.jpg)

Dewoitine D.520 the highest performance of France's fighters entering WW2 with a very racy profile. Famed British test pilot Eric Brown did not like it at all. Apparently something about the fuel tank design gave it unpredictable stability. My guess from that description would be a lack of internal divisions allowing fuel to slosh around when partially full. Still absolutely gorgeous though.
(https://imgur.com/TkJeoVC.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/r6WPg6p.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/KgSMvac.jpg)

The kinda hapless, but still good looking Morane-Saulnier M.S.406. It had a light armament (1 cannon + 2 machine guns, all in the nose), good maneuverability, but lackluster speed due to an underpowered engine.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Morane_D-3801_J-143.jpg/1024px-Morane_D-3801_J-143.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Morane-Saulnier_D-3801_HB-RCF_OTT_2013_04.jpg/1024px-Morane-Saulnier_D-3801_HB-RCF_OTT_2013_04.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Flugzeug_Morane-Saulnier_D.3801_%28Ans_05035-082%29.jpg/1024px-Flugzeug_Morane-Saulnier_D.3801_%28Ans_05035-082%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Morane_D-3801_J-143_flying.jpg/1024px-Morane_D-3801_J-143_flying.jpg)

Bloch MB.151/152 one of the less successful French fighters. Armament was unreliable (an issue common to early-war cannon), engine underpowered, range short, and maneuverability lacking.
(https://imgur.com/3vQa5tx.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Bloch_MB.151_in_flight_1938.jpg/1024px-Bloch_MB.151_in_flight_1938.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 22 December 2023, 19:53:26
Clean-as-hell Dutch Viper
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/F-16_Demo_Team_2722.jpg/1280px-F-16_Demo_Team_2722.jpg)

Sadly, I suspect the flamboyant display paint jobs might go away with low-observable (stealthy) designs made with the assumption that they'll always be coated in RAM
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 22 December 2023, 20:45:07
The flight demonstration teams will always be flamboyant... it's not like they see combat...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: DOC_Agren on 22 December 2023, 21:49:55
The flight demonstration teams will always be flamboyant... it's not like they see combat...
You hope
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 December 2023, 22:00:49
Given the cost of stealth tech, I suspect that there will always be air forces that decide they still need to have at least some cheap planes in active duty.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 23 December 2023, 04:54:23
Given the cost of stealth tech, I suspect that there will always be air forces that decide they still need to have at least some cheap planes in active duty.

The stealth tech isn't based on some unobtainium super-element that only exists in a few kilograms/year of frantic mining efforts, they're so costly because production is limited and economies of scale can't be implemented.  (either because they're not worth much in the civilian market, or national security concerns of the country where the stuff's being produced.)

IOW it's not a fixed cost, and the source isn't going to be exhausted, the price comes from not producing nearly enough of it to reduce the cost.

Once upon a time, Aluminium was worth more per volume (nevermind ton) than Gold.  It was a scientific plaything and status symbol for the wealthy.  Napoleon's field kit/dining set was made from it, and it was an extravagant display of wealth.

forward to just after the 1st World War and it was a cheap replacement for tin in little knock-off knicknacks.  The difference was that it was worth it to the manufacturers to invest in mass production of the stuff from Bauxite.

Stealth materials have a different problem;  there's literally no market outside high-end military applications for the stuff, and much of it is classified because it's 'stealthy' (defeats radar on certain bands and in certain configurations), so there's no driving market to make it cheaper and a good reason for manufacturers to keep the price of making it high (to make a profit off something with a very limited market that is relatively low volume.)

after all, who would really consent to producing themselves out of a job?  especially one that has a decent payout?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 23 December 2023, 09:35:10
I don’t think production volume is the only factor. RAMs - as far as I know - are quite finicky materials. So even if you get the material cost down making something out of it is still likely to cost a whole lot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 December 2023, 11:50:20
I don’t think production volume is the only factor. RAMs - as far as I know - are quite finicky materials. So even if you get the material cost down making something out of it is still likely to cost a whole lot.

Exactly.  Everything I've ever heard about stealth aircraft starting with the F-117's declassification when I was a kid has always said that it's very demanding and requires a ton of extra work to keep functioning correctly.  The commonly cited figure being that having a single screw out of alignment would triple a B-2's radar profile.

And there will be roles, even combat roles, where stealth simply isn't necessary.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 24 December 2023, 00:47:42
I don’t think production volume is the only factor. RAMs - as far as I know - are quite finicky materials. So even if you get the material cost down making something out of it is still likely to cost a whole lot.

Are you familiar with the Practice Effect?  The more of something you make, the better you end up being able to make it (all other factors being equal).

that is, your percentage of defects drop, the more of something you make (also you develop more efficient processes and procedures the more you work with something).

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 24 December 2023, 07:55:19
Certainly.

However if material A needs 1mm tolerances and material B needs 0.1mm tolerances material A will always be cheaper than B (assuming everything else equal). The difference can be reduced, but it's extremely unlikely to disappear.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 25 December 2023, 20:49:14
Certainly.

However if material A needs 1mm tolerances and material B needs 0.1mm tolerances material A will always be cheaper than B (assuming everything else equal). The difference can be reduced, but it's extremely unlikely to disappear.

That's true, however, that's relative to those materials, not to the general market.  if you get your efficiencies of scale going, .1mm tolerancing becomes the average, which in turn becomes your new baseline price.

Think on it this way: levels of malfunction that were common with bolt action rifles of the late 1800s are, today, unacceptable with semi-automatic rifles.

once upon a time, 3 MOA was considered adequate for sharpshooting and even competition, you can buy a rifle with 1.5 to 2 MOA over the counter at your local sporting goods store for proportionally (when you equalize for inflation) less, and it weighs less, is more reliable, and requires less active care (and in the case of modern semi-automatics like the AR-15, it's reliable under harsher conditions.)

This is the refinement that being able to leverage efficiencies of scale gets you. Your tolerances become tighter because your process becomes better, eventually the looser tolerance becomes unacceptable (quality improves).

The LESS of something you make, the less this happens.  The learning process simply doesn't occur at the same rate.  Ammunition from 1917 from the BEST arsenals of that era, wouldn't pass QC at even a second-rate modern manufacturer.

The same is shown in the automobile market, unless you honestly believe a 1957 [insert brand here] is a better car than a 2023 Honda.

(Hint: its not, build quality is significantly better on the newer machine, breakdowns that were common on car in the 1950s  are actually pretty rare today-particularly if you compare rates with the same level of maintenance from the owner).

doing things is how you advance technology.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 29 December 2023, 02:47:34
YF-4E - this airframe was the prototype for the RF-4C recce version and F-4E variant, as well as canards and FBW. Details: https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/197971/mcdonnell-douglas-yf-4e-phantom-ii/

(https://imgur.com/s3wW8hd.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/IhNFkhH.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/DsjQDsM.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Eor6siW.jpg)

Here come the Northrops. YA-9 demonstrator
(https://imgur.com/svxfIwh.jpg)

B-2 over YF-23
(https://imgur.com/cOE8twd.jpg)

Some great YF-23 shots, including a few I haven't seen before
(https://imgur.com/UGKgiFD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/5mJE7ty.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/XOV9m7F.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ZmqvuTt.jpg)

B-2
(https://imgur.com/OdQzc7f.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/fnysVwD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/HlcOLZb.jpg)

Vought V-507. Their entry into the post-F-111B VFX program that led to the Tomcat. The side looks almost Tornado-like, and the semi-conformal Sparrows look very Tornado ADV-like
(https://imgur.com/8O7I2k2.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/jKM9rmo.jpg)

Raptor time
(https://imgur.com/s2VBUog.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 29 December 2023, 04:19:28
KF-21 demo from a couple months ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvQdrbQoKy8
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2023, 05:38:45
I never realized they tried canards on the F-4... nice find! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 29 December 2023, 09:49:38
That F4 with the  Canards looks pretty cool. Way better than the F15 with the Canards.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Crimson Dynamo on 29 December 2023, 12:01:59
Good sirs, I used to have bookmarked a website full of colored images of various fighting aircraft from all over the world, organized by country and era, from examples of Sopwith Camels to Su-57s. I lost track of it after a harddrive crash and my Google-fu is weak. It was a Russian web domain IIRC. See attached image for example of the style of images. Anyone this site or at least one like it? Thanks!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 29 December 2023, 14:51:23
Ah, the YF-4E. One of so many intriguing Phantom developments that never were. At least the F-15 was a good successor.

And the Vought V-507?? Okay, the missiles look Tornado, but the plane screams Mirage Mirage F-1 to me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 29 December 2023, 16:32:05
Ah, the YF-4E. One of so many intriguing Phantom developments that never were. At least the F-15 was a good successor.

And the Vought V-507?? Okay, the missiles look Tornado, but the plane screams Mirage Mirage F-1 to me.

Naw, the size is a big thing. F1s are small planes. The tall single tail, high-mount swing-wing, razorback two-seat cockpit, and stub radome all look very Tornado-esque to me with the most obvious difference (and most unique detail) being the extreme anhedral of the stabilators

(https://imgur.com/GEzr8PO.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 30 December 2023, 02:14:20
One of the dwindling J-7 'Fishcan' (has a separate reporting name than the MiG-21)  still in service. Unguided rockets always make for dramatic photos
(https://imgur.com/i3qm6BQ.jpg)

NATO jets in Europe would have likely relied heavily on them for ground attack missions through the 80s. Look through period footage of Hornets and Vipers, and most ground attack stores are going to be unguided bombs and rockets.

CF-104, CF-5, CF-18 firing CRV7 rockets
(https://imgur.com/cBH4OBl.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/7kcGH0l.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/HHyZDIu.jpg)

The ultimate hot shot. F-106 firing an AIR-2 Genie
(https://imgur.com/FZHT3y1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 30 December 2023, 02:52:23
Imgur's saying the first photo isn't available.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 30 December 2023, 03:17:26
Imgur's saying the first photo isn't available.

Should be fixed now
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 30 December 2023, 04:08:44
Much more "fooosh!"  :cheesy:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 30 December 2023, 05:26:20
"Foosh" indeed! :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 December 2023, 20:21:43
The F106 firing the Genie, is great because it might be the nuke armed one. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 30 December 2023, 23:51:34
The F106 firing the Genie, is great because it might be the nuke armed one.
did they ever do a live fire test with the nuclear version?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 31 December 2023, 01:30:02
Plumbob John. Featured in "Trinity and Beyond."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 03 January 2024, 14:43:21
B-2 Rose Bowl flyover, from above.

(https://www.airandspaceforces.com/app/uploads/2024/01/2024-Rose-Bowl-Flyover-1024x683.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 January 2024, 16:29:13
Is that an undoctored picture?  The B-2 looks almost like a digital insertion.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 January 2024, 17:15:14
Probably taken by a blimp over the game for the TV network.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 03 January 2024, 18:11:45
That's possible, but MLO4H isn't wrong... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 03 January 2024, 19:04:51
It's the lighting. Because the photo flattens the depth out of it, the B-2 looks inconsistently lit relative to the rest of the scene.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 03 January 2024, 21:51:54
I don't know what the spaceing is. But when a plane flies over, its usually a 1000 feet above the ground, so I wonder how high the Blimp was?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 January 2024, 10:08:03
Professional photographer in a Cessna 206: https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-b-2-rose-bowl-flyover/ (https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-b-2-rose-bowl-flyover/)

He got it over the parade earlier that day as well.

(https://www.airandspaceforces.com/app/uploads/2024/01/2024-Rose-Parade-Flyover-1024x682.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Elmoth on 04 January 2024, 15:04:51
Nice shot. I fail to see how that geometry is very stealthy, but then I am a radar ignorant.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: phoenixalpha on 05 January 2024, 02:43:21
A very wierd (and expensive both cash and engineering time wise) combination of having Radar Absorbing Materials (RAM) which absorb radar energy (well certain wavelengths of radar) and having no flat angles to return a radar signal to its source. The angles deflect any radar waves away from the source so it reduces the detection signature
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 05 January 2024, 12:07:00
The fighting in Ukraine makes me think there might be room for the return of light attack helos. Instead of expensive (as in jet fighter expensive) dedicated fast/armoured/sensor-integrated platforms, we're talking about converted light utility/scout machines with a few ATGMs (4-8 seems common) with a sensor ball and a role to provide ATGM overwatch/supplementary night vision over/slightly behind friendly lines.

Might be vulnerable to attacks by FPV drones if they don't move around though. The idea goes back a long ways, and Syrian Gazelles equipped with ye olde AT-3 'Sagger' missiles gave the IDF a nasty surprise back in the early 80s. 6 helos for 30 tanks isn't a bad trade in terms of cost or lives, with the caveat that pilots probably take longer to train than AFV crews. Commercially popular platforms (thousands made in many cases) also helps a lot with maintainability, and also gives the option of expanding a force with airframes off the commercial/used market, or de-militarizing surplus platforms for sale to recoup some costs when downsizing.

South Korean MD500 Defender with a nose sensor ball, and I think 4x TOW
(https://imgur.com/R6yRyA6.jpg)

OH-58D showing Hellfire mount
(https://imgur.com/YgO1DeW.jpg)

Z-9 (AS365 Dauphin 2 license-produced by Harbin in China) with selection of local ATGMs, gun pods, and rockets
(https://imgur.com/3Or1gOO.jpg)

Bulgarian navy Dauphin 2
(https://imgur.com/MsaNNz8.jpg)

AS565 Panther variant of the Dauphin 2
(https://imgur.com/6hYcNEq.jpg)

2009 AS365 Dauphin 2 fitted for oil & gas work for sale, currently marked at 2 million Euros
(https://imgur.com/oJdubkn.jpg)

Boeing's been marketing a dedicated attack variant. Here's a Saudi one with a pair of Hellfires.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/17-_Saudi_Arabian_National_Guard_AH-6_Little_Bird_%28My_Trip_To_Al-Jenadriyah_32%29.jpg/1024px-17-_Saudi_Arabian_National_Guard_AH-6_Little_Bird_%28My_Trip_To_Al-Jenadriyah_32%29.jpg)

One with a bit-o-everything
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/SAS_2010_AH-6.JPG/1024px-SAS_2010_AH-6.JPG)

Another option in Europe is the French Aérospatiale Gazelle. Light, made into the 90s, saw some decent service and almost 1800 made. Even using Soviet AT-3 Saggers rigged to them, the Syrians managed to cost the IDF a fair number of tanks in the fighting in Syria back in the day.

(https://i.redd.it/eggqbto90cf71.jpg)

Killer eggs!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 05 January 2024, 13:08:33
Quote
Syrian Gazelles equipped with ye olde AT-3 'Sagger' missiles gave the IDF a nasty surprise back in the early 80s.

Syrian Gazelles used HOT missiles. Malyutka missiles were used on Yugoslavian Gazelles, but there is no record of their use against armour in Yugoslav wars.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 05 January 2024, 13:17:36
Syrian Gazelles used HOT missiles. Malyutka missiles were used on Yugoslavian Gazelles, but there is no record of their use against armour in Yugoslav wars.

Got my wires crossed. Seems to be something the Romanians worked on adapting their Alouette IIIs for and nothing to do with the Gazelles
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: micko on 05 January 2024, 15:03:24
A very wierd (and expensive both cash and engineering time wise) combination of having Radar Absorbing Materials (RAM) which absorb radar energy (well certain wavelengths of radar) and having no flat angles to return a radar signal to its source. The angles deflect any radar waves away from the source so it reduces the detection signature
Stealth is also a matter of perspective.
Most modern stealth designs are really only stealthily from the frontal arc.
The picture illustrates this perfectly.

Looking down it's a large target.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 January 2024, 15:50:05
Of course, most of the time a stealth aircraft does not need to worry about hostile radar coming from directly above or directly below it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: phoenixalpha on 06 January 2024, 04:01:06
Of course, most of the time a stealth aircraft does not need to worry about hostile radar coming from directly above or directly below it.

If you are a pilot in a stealth aircraft and you are being painted by radar from something directly above or below.... you're in the wrong job.  :cheesy:

Also as to the picture - yes it is a big target, but if you are in the position of being able to visually see a stealth aircraft in combat something has gone wrong somewhere.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 January 2024, 10:49:12
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/416284046_399733639234151_3765558703580039794_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=230a55&_nc_ohc=zFWjFrazM08AX9Nf_n7&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDCd7y14DNrhBZJD4zu9JqVC_POD4cR58qTx3-VUlr6sw&oe=659E47E1)

Is it true that the fuel in the Me-163 would dissolve the pilot if the fuel tank burst? Not dissolve. Set them on fire on contact.

The Me163 “Komet” was powered by a liquid-fueled rocket engine. The original chemistry was actually a catalyzed monopropellant instead of fuel-oxidizer (the difference being that the catalyst isn’t consumed in the reaction, but its presence increases the rate of reaction), and involved the code-named “T-Stoff” (Substance T) and a sodium or potassium permanganate catalyst within the reactor chamber prompting “spontaneous exothermic decomposition” of the fuel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 January 2024, 11:08:39
Not only that, but the fuel was also quite toxic and the fuel tank was very prone to leaks and ruptures.

And the reason the Komet had this toxic, highly reactive fuel was to allow it to swiftly accelerate in order to intercept Allied bombers as fast as possible.

Which it did too well, because it flew so fast that in the few times it was successfully scrambled to intercept a bombing run it was very prone to simply overflying its target before it could actually shoot them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 06 January 2024, 13:13:22
The fact that it's canons had such a slow rate of fire complicated matters even further.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 January 2024, 13:42:49
And then there was the slight issue of it only having enough fuel or about 7.5 minutes of flight time, making it incredibly short-ranged.  And my personal favorite, the design requiring the front landing gear to be jettisoned during takeoff and frequently causing them to bounce back up and strike the underside of the aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 06 January 2024, 19:39:49
The fact that it's canons had such a slow rate of fire complicated matters even further.

The cannons also had very short range and slow firing, with a arc that was pretty bad.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 January 2024, 22:38:21
  And my personal favorite, the design requiring the front landing gear to be jettisoned during takeoff and frequently causing them to bounce back up and strike the underside of the aircraft.

Wasn't the "front" landing gear, it was a launching trolley, which yes, could bounce back & damage the Komet.

It landed on a skid, on rough fields, with tanks sloshing with dangerous and volatile fuels, and the force of landing could easily rupture pipes or tanks.

From all accounts, the Me 263 addressed many of the vicious characteristics, but of course never made it as far as powered flight.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 January 2024, 10:56:11
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/415590907_321522967535702_6481181104628309445_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=eErHBIgVQ7cAX-4dhcl&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfBQmh6qZH5X906EpUiw5A9H1-wgh2Nsdvda7UPcpyxvzQ&oe=65A0382B)

The Vickers Wellington Mark X HE239 of No.428 Sqn. RCAF after completing its bomb run despite losing the rear gunner and turret and then flying back home for a landing with its bomb bay doors stuck open due to a lack of hydraulic power.

Saw this picture before in a book, but it came floating across my feed so I shared.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 08 January 2024, 19:28:08
It was pretty amazing how much damage some of those heavy bombers could take and still make it back to base.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 08 January 2024, 19:38:55
Heck, the rear wheel is still there!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 09 January 2024, 01:14:25
And Wellington was noted to be especially sturdy due to geodetic structure. In one exceptional case, a crew member cut holes in canvas on the wing so he could hold on to the structure and make his way close enough to the burning engine to use fire extinguisher to put down the fire.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 10 January 2024, 20:53:52
Movie posters from "Born To Fly" - essentially a Chinese market 'Top Gun' minus the combat and sex - featuring the J-20, J-16, and J-10C depicted in the manner of the traditional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gongbi realist style. I actually would have liked to see it in the more interpretive ink and wash style painting. The 04/28 stamp I think was the movie release date last year.

(https://imgur.com/GpRiUvp.jpg)(https://imgur.com/UCN2Mk3.jpg)(https://imgur.com/jryxwnG.jpg)

I'm also a sucker for airshow displays where the humidity is high enough to start forming vapour trails.

Mitsubishi F-2
(https://imgur.com/JOW77pc.jpg)

F-35 near Chicago with lake humidity in full swing
(https://imgur.com/9BnADBV.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/AbJVQlM.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/LVkTI0n.jpg)

F-22 - I'm not sure if this is CG or just a well-edited photo
(https://imgur.com/k1sPJm7.jpg)

And F-14 artwork:
(https://imgur.com/UVDWjEf.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 January 2024, 21:30:16

F-35 near Chicago with lake humidity in full swing
(https://imgur.com/9BnADBV.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/AbJVQlM.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/LVkTI0n.jpg)


Ghost plane!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 11 January 2024, 01:57:15
Qatari Typhoon (Tranche 3, note the two-tone grey camo, like F-15s but unlike the European Typhoons) and Pakistani J-10C (note the green-grey camo carried forward from their Mirages).

You can kind of see the similarities (low wing, chin intake) and differences (wider wings on the Typhoon, longer body on the J-10, gull wing on the J-10, canards mounted unusually forward on the Typhoon)

(https://imgur.com/JF3BgYv.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 January 2024, 20:05:59
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/420154984_406664108541104_1197174465993407731_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=230a55&_nc_ohc=PCtys3IcDaYAX8wOm1l&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDN5OfL4tDSm_LsFq5P1eGRB4FWkB6ecdDJg9P6HPZZvQ&oe=65AE98D3)

ine to an F4U Corsair at the Vought factory in Stratford Connecticut, 1943. The XF4U-1 prototype was the very first aircraft to be designed around the Pratt and Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp engine. This beast of an engine was the heart of the F4U.

With 2,800 cubic inches (46 litres) of displacement and 18 cylinders, this mammoth put down over 1,800 hp. The engine spun a large 13 feet 4 inches (4.06 m) propeller.
On October 1, 1940, the XF4U was the first single-engine US fighter to exceed 400 mph. Not only was she fast in a straight line but also in a dive too, attaining speeds of up to 550 mph.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 18 January 2024, 20:12:56
Ah, the days before PPE was a thing... still a great picture! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 19 January 2024, 06:04:28
That's one big engine for a single seater, dang.  Great photo.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 19 January 2024, 14:04:49
The F4U was a large aircraft for that era. The F2G Corsair with the Wasp Major is a bit more imposing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 19 January 2024, 14:36:18
That's one big engine for a single seater, dang.  Great photo.

It's the same engine as the Hellcat, Bearcat, and P-47 (and a whole bunch of multi-engine planes too). The Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp was prolific.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 January 2024, 20:47:39
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/420925232_768040565355215_4351644980312965030_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=ZN5rOkutngkAX-gHOo_&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDnf30nIOYTXy7t7R0Dn2zsuNHKaI_KaL5m5dXyPN1dmg&oe=65B0431D)

Wildcat, Hellcat, and Bearcat
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 January 2024, 22:46:25
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/419928591_767205162105422_1540804519280851191_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=8QeaeOXqPlsAX8Dkesn&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDHXP00sNPIszIIQoAo0YgeDx4RifHQrdFZ3J_0NVtniw&oe=65AF59CF)

This P-51B Mustang is now currently being restored by the Fagen Fighters WWII Museum

Restored?  I am going to have to lean towards re-built, I mean it sort of leans heavy into your "grandfather's axe" situation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 20 January 2024, 00:02:42
What are you talking about?  Some duct tape and a little paint and it will be good as new.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 20 January 2024, 03:59:14
Just like the Glacier Lady.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 20 January 2024, 05:31:48
That looks like rebuilding an entire 'mech from a single point of CT internal structure... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Euphonium on 20 January 2024, 14:03:52
That looks like rebuilding an entire 'mech from a single point of CT internal structure... ;D

A single point of CT structure and a mostly intact engine.

I don't think I'd trust any structural components in there as anything other than recyclable dural
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 20 January 2024, 14:32:01
If it's got less than six engine hits, it can be fixed! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 January 2024, 15:12:34
That looks like rebuilding an entire 'mech from a single point of CT internal structure... ;D

Agreed, wonder where it belly-flopped since the information was not provided.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 January 2024, 22:53:56
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/420902565_768551728637432_71903779226095294_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=GBRsmMN8itkAX_qjrNI&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCkk0cLAcv6U3M2itLiiIMY3bS2ZmTCUnCxIhpLSo1gnA&oe=65B108F9)

Highest Thunderbolt Ace "Gabby" Gebreski (28 kills) and his maintenance crew.
Without a great maintenance crew there would be no successful pilot! It's their airplane they just let the pilot fly it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 January 2024, 18:14:02
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/420689422_778760087611719_468225652796516700_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=sRbXONVDvawAX99v-a1&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDay2jLg2Fx6gjGSxATA2w7r5dcyjTVlLCZM_GhfycV3A&oe=65B3BBE0)

Traces of Texas reader Robert Brandon's wife's stepfather, Robert George, was a photographer during World War II. He was born in Missouri but raised in Houston and was living in Houston when the war began. Robert served in the National Guard and was assigned to the 111th Operations Squadron based at Ellington Air Field when the war started. As a photographer, he flew on 50 missions with various squadrons in North Africa and Europe, leaving behind some amazing photographs This is just one them, showing a B-17 that has had one of its wings blown off by flak above farmland somewhere in Europe.

Tail & Belly gunner were not getting out . . . wonder if anyone did.

Edit to fix dimensions
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 22 January 2024, 19:35:39
Yikes!  That is a LOT of damage!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 23 January 2024, 01:24:34
Direct hit by 128 mm shell to the wing will do that. Given that the aircraft is belly up, it looks like it entered oscillations, exerting centrifugal forces on the crew that would make it next to impossible for any crew members to reach the exit hatches.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 January 2024, 01:59:30
What's truly amazing is the pictures of some of the amount of damage some B-17s sustained while still making it back to their bases.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 23 January 2024, 20:17:05
More for the flak discussion . . .

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/421860684_770676978424907_4712552830605521469_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=UaKNbqpNcGsAX8VNtbf&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfC_41wR1ba0DP6QbzyPV4UASF-tyqzSwcSqChCHkUhdXQ&oe=65B57234)

1Lt. Robert Amon examines the tail of his P-38G after being hit with FLAK.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 23 January 2024, 20:29:11
Wow... he's lucky that thing is still attached!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 January 2024, 21:14:27
Slightly different angle and it wouldn't have been.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 23 January 2024, 23:46:27
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeeeK1iWsAIhE-I.jpg)

I feel for the poor tail gunner. But Barnes Wallis made the Wellington tough.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 24 January 2024, 04:12:48
Well, aside from the canvas skin at any rate... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 25 January 2024, 13:39:17
Australia’s young NH90 helicopters were such a nightmare that they are being stripped of parts and buried after nobody wanted them.

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2024/01/25/2-aussie-nh90-burial1.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 25 January 2024, 14:23:38
Australia’s young NH90 helicopters were such a nightmare that they are being stripped of parts and buried after nobody wanted them.

(https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2024/01/25/2-aussie-nh90-burial1.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

Decent chance any useful parts are already cannibalized for the remaining NH90 users who seem to be living with their own nightmares albeit not as loud with their complaints, and the composite bodies don't recycle, well, so...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 25 January 2024, 17:46:43
what's wrong with the NH90's?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 January 2024, 17:53:04
Apparently they're very high maintenance and prone to crashing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 26 January 2024, 01:26:31
Plus poor ergonomics, troops they carry can't be seated in full combat gear.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 26 January 2024, 02:15:21
And putting a machine gun in the side doors prevents people getting in or out. But it was the fatal crashes which did them in for Australia.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 26 January 2024, 04:19:45
what's wrong with the NH90's?

Everything except for looks seems to be the winning answer.

Not only are they bad at their job, they're unreliable, dangerous, and expensive too!

Australia's had some bad luck with Eurocopter. The Tiger has been unsatisfactory as well, IIRC and the Germans seem to be dropping them entirely
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 26 January 2024, 18:15:13
How about a Swiss oddball? The EKW C-3603 saw service during WW2. Looks a bit like a baby Me-110 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EKW_C-36
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Swiss_Air_Force_C-3603-1.jpg/1024px-Swiss_Air_Force_C-3603-1.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Nd2iVuc.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/wLd9jWd.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/X3YFEWo.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QAWTurd.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/utHEwe9.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/U8aPfqC.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/9WYj1Bo.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/qmQmmZ6.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/60448dP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/1M3pGFL.jpg)

And it continued service for decades afterwards as a target tug, in some cases after an engine swap to a turboprop as the F+W C-3605
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/C-3605_Swiss_Alps.jpg/1024px-C-3605_Swiss_Alps.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 26 January 2024, 18:45:32
An oddball indeed! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 January 2024, 23:05:11
Have to wonder what might have landed in Switzerland and was not returned . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 January 2024, 00:14:29
One 20mm and two 7.5mm machine guns for forward armament.  Got to have been kind of nerve wracking to actually engage targets in that thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: phoenixalpha on 27 January 2024, 05:11:32
Looks like the designer saw every plane from every major power and went.... "hmmmm... I just want to copy and paste bits from a Spitfire, a ME110, a ME109 and a cockpit from a greenhouse"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 27 January 2024, 05:28:07
Have to wonder what might have landed in Switzerland and was not returned . . .

None of the above? The C-36's first flight predates the war and the Swiss operated purchased Bf 109s from the Germans and license-produced M.S. 406s from the French
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 January 2024, 17:34:28
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/423159760_412897724584409_7097887811021648996_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=230a55&_nc_ohc=Je9_kmV4EaMAX-P1Gzi&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfAbmfV2zwuHVMAJCN-j9pr8b8m6KJbkP8LUgv4tB5naXw&oe=65BB35C6)

Stunning image of a Fw-190, and check out the tires being covered. The pilots seem very relaxed!

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/423161675_774425528050052_1171877145459977340_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=Zf9x4PehD9MAX8H5mqi&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDvyabScxcjWlYre0RctCh18RHR3ZGF-Sce1bshCGy8CA&oe=65BB7AB2)

Shark mouth on a German Bf-109!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 January 2024, 19:46:43
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/423235606_775000377992567_5083305115561837555_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=VDLHyvFDDqYAX8Ky76k&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDvHXOl3Z6zqxis-MwG007vcPmwnT7d6U1aEWrixgj6Bg&oe=65BE9E53)

No date or ship named . . . but lol, this pic COULD qualify for two threads.  I figure this is a Essex?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 30 January 2024, 21:11:43
That's definitely NOT an operational flight deck... who knows what ship, or where they were going? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 January 2024, 21:16:18
that is a escort carrier ferrying Mustangs somewhere.
I wonder if a P51 could take off from a escort carrier.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 30 January 2024, 21:21:08
If it had a catapult?  Maybe... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 January 2024, 21:39:16
If it had a catapult?  Maybe... ;)

Just all by itself. No catapult and just flight deck and power. Just a one way like the Dolittle Raid B25, take off and fly away.
Wildcats and Avengers were normal operations off the slower and smaller Escort Carriers.
There is a video of P40s taking off from the USS Ranger CV-4 but she was a mostly fullsize carrier. Sure, a little smaller and slower, but better than an Escort Carrier.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 January 2024, 23:29:17
I suspect an attempt to launch a P-51 off a carrier would result in semiballistic hydrobraking.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 31 January 2024, 02:31:10
I'd say it would depend on how much headwind you got. 20 knots into a 20 knot headwind and I expect a P-51 wouldn't have too much trouble.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 31 January 2024, 14:41:33
I'd say it would depend on how much headwind you got. 20 knots into a 20 knot headwind and I expect a P-51 wouldn't have too much trouble.

None of the USN escort carriers had a top speed of above 19 knots.  I can't imagine trying to fly a Mustang off one under those conditions.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 31 January 2024, 15:21:37
If it had a catapult?  Maybe... ;)

No provision for a cat launch though, and steam catapults don't come into use until the post-war era. Other than that, it's just a question of deck length, acceleration, and headwind. Seafires were just converted Spitfires, after all.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 January 2024, 21:28:44
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/422258982_696133125976866_4265460784484942418_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=huSFf7H09lcAX9nVNxR&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfA-NEMlsTimQ-FRqoa85OmgFmqOBDDmXt2f2KqaN1ye1A&oe=65C04467)

A great colorized photo of some Mosquitos
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 01 February 2024, 04:17:56
Great indeed! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 01 February 2024, 11:34:14
It impressed the Germans so much that they made a similar plane, even going so far as to use the same name. Turns out though there was only one factory in all of Germany that made decent wood glue, and once we bombed it that was the end of Focke Wulf's Moskito.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Focke-Wulf_Ta_154.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 01 February 2024, 11:37:49
Love the Mosquito!!! Its in the top 3 of my favorite WW2 fighters.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 01 February 2024, 21:04:57
Fighter/Bomber? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 01 February 2024, 22:50:39
Fighter/Bomber? ???

Whatever the Mosquito needed to be, it did it pretty darn well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 02 February 2024, 00:09:26
designed as a fast bomber (what we'd today call a strike aircraft), then got turned into a heavy fighter, night fighter, recon aircraft, and maritime strike aircraft.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 02 February 2024, 01:29:59
Quote
Turns out though there was only one factory in all of Germany that made special wood glue

And it wasn't even intentional, the factory just happened to be in the area that Bomber Command burned down.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 06 February 2024, 15:59:07
Can Boeing do anything right anymore?

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/02/05/boeing-pushes-back-t-7-plans-due-to-faulty-parts/ (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/02/05/boeing-pushes-back-t-7-plans-due-to-faulty-parts/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 06 February 2024, 16:16:34
Can Boeing do anything right anymore?

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/02/05/boeing-pushes-back-t-7-plans-due-to-faulty-parts/ (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/02/05/boeing-pushes-back-t-7-plans-due-to-faulty-parts/)

I think they just had more 737 MAX issues recently too - this time holes drilled in the wrong location.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/05/boeing-may-delay-more-737-max-deliveries-after-new-production-glitch-found
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 06 February 2024, 18:27:38
And missing bolts confirmed on that plug... QA is going to be under the microscope for a WHILE!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 07 February 2024, 01:07:43
Now that they've been approved for F-35 and Rafales are arriving, the Hellenic Air Force's Mirage 2000s are on their way out and looking for a buyer.

(https://imgur.com/A7JXoaU.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/eDg57yD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/KsbfOnt.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/TeJyHIg.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/vhEIStY.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/zneTbEQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/j5wvY9s.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/wDUCrH5.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/iB4eGlB.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/STTk6UO.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/AXLzbiA.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/KMBqF6Y.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/l27wzUI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Q5GGjvj.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/6dXEw7U.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/wPLiZ4T.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 09 February 2024, 18:51:24
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426261134_781510894008182_1656431473754071618_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=IAx61LqFhGEAX90bTA6&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDd1BOqTqbnklsyeQ1xxiAa94TzoLuAuEC7Xg0fLXLWIw&oe=65CC43DC)

F6F-3 Hellcat showing its ruggedness. This Hellcat flown by Butch O'Hare with over 200 bullet holes from combat was patched up and brought to the production plant to show the workers what they are building. Butch was awarded the medal of Honor 02/20/42 for shooting down five bombers attacking his carrier, he was shot down by a Japanese "Betty" bomber on 11/26/43 during the first night raid ever conducted by the US Navy from an aircraft carrier.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 09 February 2024, 21:10:49
Grumman Iron Works at it's most famous!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 10 February 2024, 05:45:28
I remember Saburo Sakai's account of his first encounter with Wildcat, he unloaded all the ammo he had into the Wildcat but failed to bring it down and it wasn't for his lack of marksmanship.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 February 2024, 20:49:10
The amount of damage some planes take and still make it back is amazing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 18 February 2024, 03:37:57
Had to share this ... posted by hammerbolt on RGP.net:

(https://scontent.flis9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428017798_423333743540807_4529339152395786515_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=230a55&_nc_ohc=s4LVC3Z9jscAX-qBZkB&_nc_ht=scontent.flis9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBTnkmGzBv45hT7unJ8su0BohcrtQeGSkYMyXe9nXNIPQ&oe=65D5B735)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 18 February 2024, 06:21:02
Hilarious, and a fantastic paint job! :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 18 February 2024, 09:21:36
I like how its on the inside. Wonder how many other jokes are inside planes like that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 22 February 2024, 08:14:55
Turkey's TF Kaan has flown.

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/02/21/Kaan-Fighter.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/02/21/TF-X-in-flight.png?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 23 February 2024, 04:16:29
KAAAAAAAN!!!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 February 2024, 16:34:40
The Turkey 5th Gen looks like F22 with more angles.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 23 February 2024, 19:07:31
The Turkey 5th Gen looks like F22 with more angles.

Depends on the angle. The F-22 has massive wings - the wings on the Raptor and the F-35C extend so far back that they have notches cut out for the horizontal stabilizers.

The overall size, inlet shape, and area forward of the wing are the most F-22 looking bits. The fairing behind the cockpit, front opening canopy, and general wing-shape look like an up-sized F-35A. Whether for stealth or aerodynamic reasons, a lot of new designs are following the F-35's footsteps and adding a fairing behind the cockpit instead of more glass for rear visibility. KF-21 and FC-31/J-35 also do this, and there seems to be a new J-20 test airframe spotted with a similar change.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 23 February 2024, 19:08:14
The Turkey 5th Gen looks like F22 with more angles.

The difference being, the Turks can actually Build more of theirs.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 24 February 2024, 07:47:13
The difference being, the Turks can actually Build more of theirs.
If they can afford it. Erdogan's not exactly been doing a brilliant job with his economy...

My guess is that Turkey will start to look for a European or American partner within a few years, or possibly one of India/Japan/Korea. I doubt there'll be a Chinese partner unless it's very well hidden!

Of course a major multi-national war looks more likely all the time, so who knows what the situation is in five years...  :cry:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 24 February 2024, 20:51:51
If the US really really wanted to, they could build more F-22s. The F-15E Eagle II is a good example of that.

F-35 seems to be the put all the eggs in one basket.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 24 February 2024, 21:11:01
If the US really really wanted to, they could build more F-22s. The F-15E Eagle II is a good example of that.

F-35 seems to be the put all the eggs in one basket.

yeah, the F-22 production got ended because they thought the F-35 would provide similar performance with lower costs. not so much as it turned out. at this point we could build more F-22's, we'd just to have shell out the money to set up a new production line.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 February 2024, 19:03:05
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428619014_791797329646205_8189314733133753270_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=fJWzqbKA4hUAX8_HoDA&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCRiOb9efMOUIObUw9qZ5FeHzLzefX8V3wcQwkWpCpHYA&oe=65E16D17)

Exceptional low pass of a B-17!

"Hey, do we have any oil leaking during flight operations?"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 26 February 2024, 18:17:54
Had to share this ... posted by hammerbolt on RGP.net:

(https://scontent.flis9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428017798_423333743540807_4529339152395786515_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=230a55&_nc_ohc=s4LVC3Z9jscAX-qBZkB&_nc_ht=scontent.flis9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBTnkmGzBv45hT7unJ8su0BohcrtQeGSkYMyXe9nXNIPQ&oe=65D5B735)

Wonder Woman's invisible jet?

(image isn't loading, and when I try following the URL I get a message it's expired)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 26 February 2024, 18:21:52
Had to share this ... posted by hammerbolt on RGP.net:

[ img]https://scontent.flis9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428017798_423333743540807_4529339152395786515_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=230a55&_nc_ohc=s4LVC3Z9jscAX-qBZkB&_nc_ht=scontent.flis9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBTnkmGzBv45hT7unJ8su0BohcrtQeGSkYMyXe9nXNIPQ&oe=65D5B735[/ img]

Facebook images can't be directly hotlinked any more, at least not for long. The URLs generated eventually expire leaving a non-functional URL
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 26 February 2024, 18:31:29
It's still showing for me... even in the quote... ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 26 February 2024, 18:37:51
It's still showing for me... even in the quote... ???

Maybe it's in your cache. I assume you mean Gio's quote, because I deliberately broke the tags to show the URL
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 26 February 2024, 18:43:20
Yes, I meant Gio's quote... sorry for being vague!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 26 February 2024, 23:10:23
It's still showing for me... even in the quote... ???

Might still be in your browser cache.  I see nothing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 28 February 2024, 04:11:40
Scooters!

A-4A
(https://imgur.com/J5Xj84A.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/xeXC0rC.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/7rx7n2S.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/6QQNV08.jpg)

A-4B
(https://imgur.com/6YYBzcV.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ezNjAt4.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/tbT05Ha.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/DUh729w.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/lF4hglR.jpg)

A-4C
(https://imgur.com/cwXtTFP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/GvqUQ68.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/pzqKjdf.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/YfjhlON.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/PSMKoIX.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/UdJ5q9W.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/TiJQSis.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/dwvEsqC.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/4aHEqd2.jpg)

A-4E
(https://imgur.com/UwSBhT3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/IyUykNZ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/4Z9BnuU.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/82pgXsT.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Tc7VR9Q.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/bLcQOLQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/OZbsPhn.jpg)

A-4F
(https://imgur.com/Tv0mFz8.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/fIO3jv3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/NqreB3n.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/3lhqlrJ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Q47bEtL.jpg)

A-4G
(https://imgur.com/GyA0wLH.jpg)

A-4K
(https://imgur.com/owfWO8d.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/MM6qQD8.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/RBRbLZ6.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/J20WAst.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/hXtK0gU.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/DYT1mBL.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vwSnvTC.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QQRFfeH.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Bs4x3vQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/IJSQsiI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/7ec11py.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/owfWO8d.jpg)

A-4L
(https://imgur.com/ROKCQXR.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/47IApD5.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/RQqOOXE.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/HNaZG29.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/vGEK8pE.jpg)

A-4M
(https://imgur.com/G8GMk1e.jpg)

A-4P
(https://imgur.com/70RaaQn.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/XJ009yv.jpg)

A-4Q
(https://imgur.com/pYHxuit.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/zx4UTws.jpg)

A-4S
(https://imgur.com/zMN3sIp.jpg)

A-4SU
(https://imgur.com/aiAfmNd.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/6djXjEN.jpg)

OA-4M
(https://imgur.com/eiFIEWw.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/az5ahJD.jpg)

OA-4AR
(https://imgur.com/qGoolrs.jpg)

OA-4R
(https://imgur.com/IJx3LeN.jpg)

TA-4F
(https://imgur.com/0P5KmXn.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/gOnz8fN.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/YVjv7Y2.jpg)

TA-4J
(https://imgur.com/X3YYt8B.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/k54U5xL.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/8vNefgY.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rYvASmP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/lLGXxe3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Z9I89Bc.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/GTrJYJe.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/nx45y32.jpg)

TA-4K
(https://imgur.com/9KeiPAT.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ylqRgsW.jpg)

TA-4SU
(https://imgur.com/HPGzuzw.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/M0P3yxc.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/dXf7FS4.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 28 February 2024, 04:23:26
That's quite the collection! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Elmoth on 28 February 2024, 07:03:13
Cool looking plane! I did not know about this one. it looks like a ferocius tiny creature!

What is the "hump" that some of the models have?

Cheers,
Xavi
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 February 2024, 08:21:04
Top Aces, the Canada-based advanced training provider that specializes in ‘red air’ adversary support, has shown off one of its Cold War-era A-4 Skyhawk jets fitted with an infrared search and track (IRST) system. The development brings the veteran A-4 right up to date in terms of the kind of threat sensor replication it can offer, especially as the company has already been adding advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars to the same type.

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/02/27/A-4-IRST.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: lrose on 28 February 2024, 08:21:47
The humps we’re usually for additional electronics. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 28 February 2024, 11:46:01
The A-4 Skyhawk is such a neat little jet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 28 February 2024, 12:25:18
The humps we’re usually for additional electronics.

I think sometimes fuel as well, but it's more interesting to me that you find examples of a given variant both with and without humps, especially the E/F.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 28 February 2024, 16:49:42
the hump started with the A-4F, where the hump was used to house extra avionics. it would later be retrofit to some of the E's and C's, and be an option for the various export models.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 29 February 2024, 16:11:46
Always had a soft spot for the A-4, since one of my older second cousins flew one for the Marines back in the '70s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 February 2024, 17:44:46
Frank Piasecki's flying bananas:

HPP Rescuer
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8b79440c8454ba24dc9482eaa4b093d3?rik=y8oEItQtOQLsGQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.helistart.com%2fpictures%2fpiasecki-HRP-1.jpg&ehk=GOuqNXRo8kUS4QIJ7lBc95wVA3FIX756UriMG%2bUjyFE%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

H-16 Transporter
(https://www.airhistory.net/photos/0242259.jpg)

HUP Retriever
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/HUP-2_from_USS_FD_Roosevelt_%28CVA-42%29_in_flight_1959.jpg)

H-21 Shawnee/Workhorse
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Piasecki_H-21_%28modified%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 29 February 2024, 17:49:55
Those all appear to be designed to avoid telestrikes... cool!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 29 February 2024, 18:29:51
Always had a soft spot for the A-4, since one of my older second cousins flew one for the Marines back in the '70s.

Plus it's like the Volkswagen Beetle of warplanes!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 29 February 2024, 19:38:29
Plus it's like the Volkswagen Beetle of warplanes!

"It's an airplane, not a clown car!"  :grin:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 29 February 2024, 21:12:39
Fully loaded Skyhawks almost take up all the space under the wings.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 01 March 2024, 00:18:41
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2604/4866/files/advdopga_700w_0_64195876-bca2-43a4-979f-44df5bb22f17.jpg?v=1623768612) (https://sierrahotel.net/blogs/news/wheres-the-beef?fbclid=IwAR2noizZ242vgXvTRv1id4WKjxjkXjoWbjyyqptR-_hZ21Ra3ziFxj7itN8)

Supposedly:

Quote
This particular Warthog S/N 81-994 was seen at the 100th anniversary of the 107th Fighter Squadron (107FS) also known as the "RED Devils” of the Air National Guard 127th Wing assigned to Selfridge Air National Guard Base(ANGB), Michigan.   According to unsubstantiated and vague internet sources, the story behind the cow marking starts with a CAS mission over Afghanistan by an unnamed pilot, whom was utilizing his GAU-8/A Avenger Cannon in an undisclosed location in the pursuit of establishing and maintaining international relations.

After the A-10 had completed its mission and cleared the area, the ground troops moved in, it is said that a solitary cajun cooked depleted uranium seasoned cow was discovered, that had most unfortunately suffered from a rapid kinetic disassembly unknowingly delivered by the A-10 Warthog as it provided its support. Thusly, explaining the appearance of a victory marking in the form of a cow adorning the side of a Warthog.

Picture is the Link.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 March 2024, 00:39:36
At the very least it's a good story.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 05 March 2024, 03:24:49
Saw a kitbash that was aerodynamically interesting and would have hideous amounts of power if it were real.

Source: https://twitter.com/BaroBaronron/status/1764680907729018969
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 05 March 2024, 04:25:08
So... three engines? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 05 March 2024, 04:36:19
The airflow out of the central engine would be appalling, given the tunnelling of the engines on either side. The heat impact would also be enormous. I'd be trusting there'd be some form of air intake in the middle underneath, which isn't necessarily a good place for intakes (the F-16 intake is up the front, with just a pointy nose ahead of it.)

Cute, yes; practical, not necessarily.

See also the NF-349 - a theoretical design which added a third engine to a Vigilante airframe. The third engine was above and between the other two, over the large linear bomb bay in the original design, which kept airflow and heating cleaner. There were additional air intakes above the usual two, these feeding into the central engine. It would have been an interesting design, assuming mechanical and heating problems could be solved; as well as having enormous power from 3 of the classic afterburning J-79ss, it promised the potential of loitering with two engines shut down. Try that, A-5, F-4, and F-14 pilots! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 March 2024, 20:42:57
as well as having enormous power from 3 of the classic afterburning J-79ss, it promised the potential of loitering with two engines shut down. Try that, A-5, F-4, and F-14 pilots! :)

reminds me of that joke about the B-52 pilot being heckled by a F-15 pilot during a mission. with the F-15 pilot showing off aerobatics..and the B-52 pilot going "oh yeah, watch this?" followed by 5 minutes of silence and steady flight. to which the F-15 pilot asks "watch what?" "i turned off two engines, got up stretched my legs, and got a fresh cup of coffee"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 05 March 2024, 20:44:44
Brilliant trolling, that! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 05 March 2024, 21:42:29
See also the NF-349 - a theoretical design which added a third engine to a Vigilante airframe. The third engine was above and between the other two, over the large linear bomb bay in the original design, which kept airflow and heating cleaner. There were additional air intakes above the usual two, these feeding into the central engine. It would have been an interesting design, assuming mechanical and heating problems could be solved; as well as having enormous power from 3 of the classic afterburning J-79ss, it promised the potential of loitering with two engines shut down. Try that, A-5, F-4, and F-14 pilots! :)
The Tomcat did have a good loiter time, it's the Hornet in any version that has a horrible one.

Besides, the NR-349 was for the Air Force to replace interceptors. Like this TXANG Convair F-102 Delta Dagger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 05 March 2024, 22:55:24
The Tomcat did have a good loiter time, it's the Hornet in any version that has a horrible one.

Besides, the NR-349 was for the Air Force to replace interceptors. Like this TXANG Convair F-102 Delta Dagger

That gets me thinking weird, off center thoughts like; "What if someone converted an F-102 to use a modern low-bypass turbofan instead of the old-school Turbojet engines?'
 
I mean, I know it's not a PRACTICAL idea, and the work would cost more than just building something new from scratch...

but one wonders what might have been possible...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 March 2024, 00:07:58
Fuselage would be double the diameter, to get enough airflow in the bypass, for one. Fitting turbofans into turbojet chasses is slightly different than hanging them under wings; the B-52 would probably work brilliantly with four GEnx-1B engines (like the Dreamliner's), but the cost and paperwork in recertifying the airframe would be cost-prohibitive - yet entirely necessary, see what happens when you skimp on that, 737-MAX  :huh:

But now I have this mad idea of a single big-assed turbofan pushed into the back of an old F-4 chassis ...  :shocked:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 06 March 2024, 00:46:39
the B-52 would probably work brilliantly with four GEnx-1B engines (like the Dreamliner's)
there have been a number of proposals to do just that sort of thing over the Buff's service life. different models every time of course.

the most recent proposal actually passed.. they'll be getting 8 Rolls-Royce F130 turbofans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_BR700). pretty much had to pass, the old engines had reached total end of life. there had been proposals basically every decade since the 1970's to replace them with new engines.. usually whatever was in common use by civilian or cargo planes. i think one of the more recent ones that was shot down proposed using the same General Electric CF6 engines as the C-5 galaxy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 March 2024, 02:34:54
Did the B-52 already get refitted with new wings, or is that upcoming?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 06 March 2024, 04:00:04
The B-52J features ""new Rolls Royce F130 engines, upgraded avionics, radar, and an enlarged and modernized weapons bay." That's 8 F130s per plane. The F130 is a turbofan, but a military variant of an engine usually powering corporate jets like Gulfstreams - although the F130 had been slated for RAF Nimrods, before that was cancelled. So presumably it's lower diameter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 March 2024, 19:29:16
Did the B-52 already get refitted with new wings, or is that upcoming?

New composite wings are like a decade in the past.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 March 2024, 19:33:03
Well, you can see how on top of things I am when it comes to keeping track of what's going on in the military.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 06 March 2024, 19:33:10
The B-52 is truly the grandfather's axe of airplanes... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 07 March 2024, 10:54:18
Another example of the rotor RPM being a multiple of the camera's FPS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xTjyV8F6XU

As for whether the rotors keep a constant RPM - they actually do on most helos. It's the same technology behind constant-speed propellers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-pitch_propeller_(aeronautics)#Constant-speed_propellers
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 07 March 2024, 11:50:29
A technology that WW1 pilots in their rotary engine planes would have killed for. Having to blip the engine on and off to throttle had to have been difficult.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 09 March 2024, 11:03:03
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1055014738901542 (https://www.facebook.com/reel/1055014738901542)

Like old ammo cans...

Spam is best, ja?

TT

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Colt Ward on 10 March 2024, 00:07:36
Well, you can see how on top of things I am when it comes to keeping track of what's going on in the military.

Eh, now that I think about it it is more like 15-20 years.  Only reason I really know is one of my section chiefs was a aviation engineer on the update to the B-52 around 2002 and talked about it some.  He was a weird bird . . . former Marine rifleman, aviation engineer on a Air Force contract, and was in the National Guard as artillery to get his 20+ for retirement.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 March 2024, 03:31:32
Eh, now that I think about it it is more like 15-20 years.  Only reason I really know is one of my section chiefs was a aviation engineer on the update to the B-52 around 2002 and talked about it some.  He was a weird bird . . . former Marine rifleman, aviation engineer on a Air Force contract, and was in the National Guard as artillery to get his 20+ for retirement.

Weird? or 'Well Rounded'?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 13 March 2024, 02:58:26
Scaled Composites designs are always unique and look like something that a 70s sci-fi artist might regard as being just a little too much.

White Knight One carrier aircraft for SpaceShipOne. It's deceptively small - those are J85 turbojets, giving it the power of an F-5. The booms and wing give it a bat-like profile from some angles
(https://imgur.com/FdlepQV.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/nozsDSN.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Q4p1huq.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QS7G9Wn.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/KmsRfLp.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/CFduA6z.jpg)

Mated up with SpaceShipOne
(https://imgur.com/qX3rHvL.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/0eeaHOV.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/e1LYI6p.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/O0ahhC7.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/qZOv1B0.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/l1liH87.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ZGvV94U.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/GfbTrQl.jpg)

SpaceShipOne
(https://imgur.com/3dckASn.jpg)
(http://.jpg)

White Knight Two carrier aircraft
(https://imgur.com/eXiaqo7.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/6XJTYu0.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/LH8y3Wb.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/8MCOdCt.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QbKlNeQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/3Xobc2L.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/dBbSUob.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/CBJG1SX.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/DV5k2xN.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/4km2awE.jpg)

SpaceShipTwo
(https://imgur.com/hNr3b78.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/sCFNHHA.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/hfKAgkI.jpg)

Stratolaunch Roc carrier aircraft. Could be right out of the cover of an old sci-fi novel
(https://imgur.com/h9Q0V77.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rK7dT85.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/hmpHtRP.jpg)

Proteus research aircraft. Powered by a pair of FJ44 turbofans, equivalent to a Citation jet
(https://imgur.com/csbVnUZ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ZzdSmVu.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/JNocHNF.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/SVqOlJu.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/hKCuZan.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/JnNvc38.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/5sXUYF8.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/UY8vMOb.jpg)

The Virgin Atlantic GlobalFlyer
(https://imgur.com/z7DMsh9.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/M5QSetr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/TG1C6rV.jpg)

X-38 experimental re-entry vehicle
(https://imgur.com/Q9e5w5a.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/GWfcNhA.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/EEzv9H9.jpg)

V-Jet II demonstrator for Williams. Although Williams would move on with the Eclipse twin-jet, the layout reminds me more of the Cirrus Vision with the V-tail and dorsal engine mounts (albeit Cirrus goes with a single engine)
(https://imgur.com/PVa1i4O.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/tRLtk9t.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/fzy7dq7.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/FiAck1N.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Qs478m2.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/YM2xAkk.jpg)

Triumph
(https://imgur.com/xQdyVhn.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/WkVFePI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/J3iwd7H.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/yJYJuWL.jpg)

Vantage prototype
(https://imgur.com/PnkiXav.jpg)

Model 33 Advanced Technology Tactical Transport (ATTT) demonstrator
(https://imgur.com/6Al4GgE.jpg)
(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)

(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)

(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)
(http://.jpg)


The iconic Long-EZ kit plane
(https://imgur.com/GobM4yj.jpg)

Model 401 single-seat aircraft
(https://imgur.com/3kg7ENt.jpg)

Pond Racer racing plane
(https://imgur.com/mArCh4R.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rOUTe81.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/z3KsVXA.jpg)

Here's a joking partial bingo sheet for Scaled Composite/Burt Rutan aircraft:
- Only one made
- Less than 10 made
- Kitplane
- Canards
- Carbon Fiber (freebie)
- Lateral asymmetry
- Twin-boom
- High aspect-ratio wings
- Breaks some kind of record
- Round portholes
- Pusher prop
- Carrier aircraft
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 13 March 2024, 15:42:32
I feel like all those different aircraft should combine together to form a giant robot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 13 March 2024, 17:30:21
You are not wrong! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 13 March 2024, 18:46:36
But it would have to be an awkward looking and innately unsettling robot. More Eva than Gundam.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 14 March 2024, 16:53:58
I'm not really sure it's fair to include the X-38 in there, though, as it comes upon its weirdness honestly, going back decades to the X-24.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 14 March 2024, 17:30:37
I'm not really sure it's fair to include the X-38 in there, though, as it comes upon its weirdness honestly, going back decades to the X-24.

It's easily the least weird of their designs.

But otherwise, a lot of their designs seem to share a lot of genes with the F-82 Twin Mustang, U-2, and XP-55
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 15 March 2024, 14:57:53
The Sirrus SF50 a small single jet personal plane is pretty neat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 March 2024, 08:36:51
This is the SF50 Jet, 5 seat. 0.5 mach, and under 2 million fully equipped with all the things.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 16 March 2024, 13:26:10
Meanwhile...

(https://preview.redd.it/f-15e-strike-eagle-playing-hide-and-seek-in-the-mach-loop-v0-gjfllph03poc1.jpeg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a20c1bdb5eb4ddbfcb9df5c09a845bd6f9420913)

Source (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137929058@N06/34356366374/in/album-72157675117354293/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 16 March 2024, 14:22:14
More from the Mach Loop:

(https://www.musclecarszone.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/LOW-FLYING-FIGHTER-JETS-From-MACH-LOOP-3.jpg)

(https://e3.365dm.com/18/06/1600x900/skynews-f-15-fighter-jet-mach-loop-wales_4346843.jpg?20180627104105)

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.5c2aa25dc2fd052c71a911f0f4c222b0?rik=RDfvx61cUCaOWQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fi.imgur.com%2fIIUIwR2.jpg&ehk=dVcEGoOTqhvprO3G%2fAyRUZx%2fqjVPaV%2bEIrLGlB6wZ4M%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/da/83/c2/da83c298bc1541b7a84f62ecb38bb928.jpg) 

(https://www.musclecarszone.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Low-Flying-Jet-Performance-At-The-Mach-Loop-In-Wales-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 17 March 2024, 07:54:43
Mach loop would be so fun to go to.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 19 March 2024, 15:43:16
Jet airlifters! They basically all follow the same recipe:
1) Podded main gear to keep the cargo area free
2) High wing so that wing sparse keep clear of the cargo area
3) T-tail to reduce drag and keep the elevators clear of turbulent airflow coming off the high wing
4) Rear ramp for airdropping and loading palletized/oversized cargo

Xi'an Y-20 - These all have the D-30 turbofans. The Y-20B with the indigenous high-bypass engines hasn't been out long enough for really good photos to make it onto Airliners.net
(https://imgur.com/z4rrDcS.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/sCFoS98.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Lg1hdQ1.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/4qE7xsM.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/oVQBqPP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/hEd6znp.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/JOWAMX3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/VSnqy9d.jpg)

The one and only An-225. I think it actually has less lifting weight than the An-124, and there isn't a tail ramp due to weight-saving measures to free up weight for its original job of lugging an orbiter
(https://imgur.com/nRKHBos.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/jxUYwID.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/XsUrn8h.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/U3T5wq6.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Wwn0WJ8.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/YwMpFsM.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/AvBMute.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/wjsUxhC.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/YNEO02Q.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/3PnvMqQ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/fRyXsl3.jpg)

The preceding An-124. The low horizontal stabilizer is a little unusual, but I imagine it might have been a trade-off for mechanical complexity and maintainability to not mount it on top of the huge fin
(https://imgur.com/FSYZAGS.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/QNNpWyO.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rkfAFRc.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rduQn4Z.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/38Ybvvu.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/run9IWf.jpg)

An-72/74 with its distinctive overwing engines for STOL performance via Coandă effect. Obviously, it makes the engines much more complicated to service/replace and there's a non-trivial drag penalty
(https://imgur.com/BxbCuZ9.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/I4GSUqx.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/f1byUts.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/FF3d0j3.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/W8lWdfH.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Lyt9T7e.jpg)

The evergreen Il-76 and its distinctive glazed navigator station in the nose
(https://imgur.com/oXMozfJ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/xBRq3Mr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/5PzZz4w.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/qPVEcdb.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/X9ho2xh.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/paSbczj.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/I6FQXS1.jpg)

The adorably compact Kawasaki C-2
(https://imgur.com/jZ9AQcH.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/xgrGmJN.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/rNMaW5e.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/O5FBrIj.jpg)

The older and similarly petite Kawasaki C-1
(https://imgur.com/vPRJuQ1.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/KJ0C8uC.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/KS210Zy.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/xUrWkEx.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/c00oUIf.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/CUYc3pq.jpg)

The similarly sized Embraer C-390 from Brazil
(https://imgur.com/sYxEdhw.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/WyfhgKZ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/LlbKTkE.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/IFQnBss.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/3hhGY2i.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/knLIj3I.jpg)

The Boeing/McDonnell-Douglas C-17
(https://imgur.com/1ZnSVkf.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Q9oT3JN.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/kpACwh2.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/gipSGem.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/F4kTNEV.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/r4ouy9E.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/YxlgS40.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/mhMLUo6.jpg)

The big ol' Lockheed C-5
(https://imgur.com/aT4Qq1b.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Wsvk4GH.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/2F9oNYr.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/WKzX7ZB.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/tg4ScVF.jpg)

The Lockheed C-141
(https://imgur.com/noOKLoG.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/UNl8oqi.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/WEUlsix.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/s5a7leJ.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/T1htAHD.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/PwCrTN6.jpg)

And the queen of the skies, the Boeing 747
(https://imgur.com/umo0xA5.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/YCT6wSt.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/1nZHXuK.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/V8LFq8N.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 19 March 2024, 20:48:57
I've got a feeling the 747-8 will end up flying for years after the A380 as was heavily ordered as a cargo aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 19 March 2024, 22:02:18
I've got a feeling the 747-8 will end up flying for years after the A380 as was heavily ordered as a cargo aircraft.

Not heavily enough-when the decision to pull the plug on the 747 program was decided, they wasted zero time dismantling the production line, and I mean all the way.  They're using the building it was in as a hangar for repairing/refitting 787s now.

This may have cost Boeing the next Airforce One contract, seeing as we lost the RFP AFTER they dismantled the 747 line.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 March 2024, 22:06:46
The one and only An-225. I think it actually has less lifting weight than the An-124, and there isn't a tail ramp due to weight-saving measures to free up weight for its original job of lugging an orbiter
(https://imgur.com/U3T5wq6.jpg)

*drapes the picture in a black ribbon*
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/antonov-an-225-largest-plane-destroyed-ukraine-scli-intl/index.html
https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/04/drone-footage-of-destroyed-antonov-an-225-revealed/

was a victim of the battle of Hostomel Airport in Feb 2022.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 20 March 2024, 18:07:32
Not heavily enough-when the decision to pull the plug on the 747 program was decided, they wasted zero time dismantling the production line, and I mean all the way.  They're using the building it was in as a hangar for repairing/refitting 787s now.

This may have cost Boeing the next Airforce One contract, seeing as we lost the RFP AFTER they dismantled the 747 line.
Another victim of Boeing getting taken over by McDonnell Douglas management.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 20 March 2024, 19:16:25
John Oliver had a typically hilarious and on-the-nose take on that... ;D

It's free on YouTube, but is probably on HBO Max or something too... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 22 March 2024, 21:01:02
Another victim of Boeing getting taken over by McDonnell Douglas management.

Not supposed to speak out of schoooool on this, but...talking about that merger will head us straight into the "No Politics Rule" so let's leave it where it is, ayeh?  The 747 Line was dismantled, the -8 discontinued, Boeing lost the next Airforce one contract in the pre-bidding.  as in 'not even a consideration'.  is it related? who knows?

I don't.  what I do know, is that the only alternative to Boeing in the large, heavy lift, passenger capable long-haul market? is European.  The merger in 1996 and the 'paring down' of Lockheed a decade earlier means that the next Air Force One will probably be built in Toulouse France.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 March 2024, 21:26:54
Kind of a foreseeable consequence when there are two major companies that do something and one of them gets a reputation for having terrible quality control.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 23 March 2024, 07:59:45
I've heard several arguments that Boeing's problem is, basically, greedy owners. Boeing wasn't paying enough dividends so it was forced to cut down on expenses like R&D and quality control to increase payouts.

Suffering through this exact situation for the second time in my professional life I see no reason to question this analysis... :'(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 23 March 2024, 13:08:45
I've heard several arguments that Boeing's problem is, basically, greedy owners. Boeing wasn't paying enough dividends so it was forced to cut down on expenses like R&D and quality control to increase payouts.

Suffering through this exact situation for the second time in my professional life I see no reason to question this analysis... :'(
this tracks with the accounts the Boeing employees were giving.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 23 March 2024, 16:38:39
Boom Supersonic's XB-1 demonstrator took flight for the first time yesterday.

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/03/23/HS408416-scaled-1.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 23 March 2024, 18:46:52
Not supposed to speak out of schoooool on this, but...talking about that merger will head us straight into the "No Politics Rule" so let's leave it where it is, ayeh?  The 747 Line was dismantled, the -8 discontinued, Boeing lost the next Airforce one contract in the pre-bidding.  as in 'not even a consideration'.  is it related? who knows?

I don't.  what I do know, is that the only alternative to Boeing in the large, heavy lift, passenger capable long-haul market? is European.  The merger in 1996 and the 'paring down' of Lockheed a decade earlier means that the next Air Force One will probably be built in Toulouse France.

Airbus can build it or at least do final assembly in their US plant for appearances sake if nothing else.

A better question is if ETOPs is good enough for a new Air Force One, because there aren't any three or four-engined airliners being made any more.

In fact, there are very few tri or quad-jets in production at all. The Y-20 airlifter, Il-76 airlifter (supposedly/somehow), P-1 maritime patrol aircraft, and the Dassault Falcon executive jets.

Maybe a refit of a couple existing C-17s could do it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 March 2024, 21:28:10
The Airbus A380 is also not in production. Many government official aircraft are A350 or 777 which are both twins. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 23 March 2024, 22:15:34
The Airbus A380 is also not in production. Many government official aircraft are A350 or 777 which are both twins.

Hence my comment. The A340, A380, and now 747 are all OOP and Falcon is only exec-jet sized. Looks like except for the odd 747, most world leaders use twinjets, but Air Force One has some additional duties that other head of states transports don't.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 24 March 2024, 04:43:54
Hence my comment. The A340, A380, and now 747 are all OOP and Falcon is only exec-jet sized. Looks like except for the odd 747, most world leaders use twinjets, but Air Force One has some additional duties that other head of states transports don't.

and those duties will be done by something else, probably made in Europe or China, when they run out of spares to keep the current Airforce One functional.

But y'know what? the guys who made the decision on Boeing's side? they're still going to get their bonuses, even though they screwed up and lost the chance to BID on that contract.

THAT is the kind of mess that SHOULD be getting executives shown the door, with a boot to the ass to make sure they leave.

The current mess w/rt the 737 Max has a lot to do with execs focusing more on irrelevancies than on the core business, and passing that shifted priority down through the layers of bureaucratic management to the shop floor, because that mess? it's multilayered and multileveled. 

Tag gets written, TAg turns into NCR, Mechanic starts working the NCR, Mechanic gets interrupted, QA buys off some of the work, but not all of it, because it ain't all finished.

Plane moves a position, nobody followed up.  Now, the Mechanic didn't because it's factory work and if it's important, someone on the next shift or past that usually gets assigned to finish it.  The QA doesn't for the same reason, but the guys in the next position? the ones getting an OK to close in that area? they didn't even CHECK, and neither did the QA in that area, or the Customer Representative, so this open paper saying "Hey y'all the envelope's compromised" gets forgotten about through Interiors, paint shop, Delivery center, and the FAA guy who's supposed to review the paperwork before the airplane gets its registry number and is legal to fly.

Because that's the procedure that's existed since the 1930s, Final delivery gets a paperwork review from both the Customer, and the FAA, before the plane can be delivered to load passengers.

so how many failures is that? It's a LOT of failures.

as reported in the news weeks ago, they figured out the cause because the rework document was still incomplete.

That means Alaska Airlines's rep didn't review the paper on the plane, neither did the FAA guy whose job is to issue the registry certification, but those guys shouldn't HAVE TO, and that's where you get into the internal problems with optimistic scheduling and overlooking details to 'make delivery'.

What was driving that? remember a couple planes going all nose-down and crash with full passenger loads because someone in the executive suite decided to make having three sensors instead of one an expensive option on a software that requires two-to-one comparison parity?

iirc, one of those was Lion Air?

Grounded the Max fleet for a couple years right during Covid?

yeah. 

The people who made that call, got their bonuses despite making a choice that killed people.  They're not the shareholders, they get their bonuses from their peers at corporate HQ.

where do THOSE guys get it? from a Board of Directors that doesn't include a single engineer or aviation professional, but does include several hedge-fund managers and lobbyists.

You know, people who know 'Tech is money' but don't know how or why it works.

They make us take an annual ethics course that mostly focuses on actions none of hte people I work with, will ever be in a position to do.  Nobody is ever going to bribe a guy who beats metal into airplane parts (or shapes) over a procurement contract, I'm never going to be at risk of overcharging the company on a business trip.  (not even if I get into AOG), I will never have the ability to hire a relative who is unqualified, because I don't have access to that level.

Why do we have those classes? because executives have been caught doing all those things.  They act unethically, we get to take a class telling us why it's wrong.

OTOH, falsifying a rework document, doing unauthorized rework or modifications, claiming to have done a process and not doing it? those come with ACTUAL LEGAL CONSEQUENCES.  Not just 'fired' but "Hello mister federal marshall please don't break my wrists as you arrest me".

See, that production paperwork? and the rework documents? those are LEGAL documents.  You put your stamp on it and it wasn't done, they can toss your ass in LEAVENWORTH.

The prison, in Kansas, not the charming german-theme tourist town with the cool Octoberfest in Washington.

so, y'know, multiple failures and there's a good chance that if DoJ wanted to, people would be under arrest, under indictment, and facing a judge over this, but it won't be the guy who didn't claim the work was finished, at least, if anything happens at all beyond some fines and embarrassment.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 24 March 2024, 05:10:28
The exact particulars differ of course, but that post definitely reminded me of all the joy and happiness that comes from working in an industry where mistakes kill people, Cannonshop.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 24 March 2024, 05:54:29
The exact particulars differ of course, but that post definitely reminded me of all the joy and happiness that comes from working in an industry where mistakes kill people, Cannonshop.

Sadly, people forget that this stuff doesn't happen by some unconscious magic, and that you can't apply methods developed for disposable consumer goods to something like aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 24 March 2024, 07:07:03
Building a reputation for quality work is more expensive than squeezing that reputation for more profit.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 24 March 2024, 07:22:10
Building a reputation for quality work is more expensive than squeezing that reputation for more profit.

It's not so much that it's 'more expensive'-quality work tends to be less expensive than 'cheap' work, but only if you look past the immediate moment.  It's not that it's less expensive, it's that it's less DIFFICULT to wring the reputation, than it is to maintain it.  (after all, it's really EASY to lose your reputation, but somehow, that's not what gets taught at Harvard Business Schools.)

the problem, is that Business Majors have been taught a three month horizon, beyond that point, they don't consider anything.  (Or at least, that's the behavior when they graduate business school to go run a manufacturing firm)

Why? because companies have to pay taxes on a quarterly basis-so earnings and everything else fall in line, and you can make bank if you can show a 'positive return' in an 'important quarter'.

even if you're LOSING money two months out of three.

Thus the pernicious influence of economists like Keynes telling people that the long term doesn't matter.

boy this is going WAY off topic...

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/28/8b/60/288b60daddfd6003a70db51df806d7ef.jpg)

Here's an airplane with a historical significance.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 24 March 2024, 07:51:29
I've seen that one in person!  Nice close up! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Sabelkatten on 24 March 2024, 10:49:42
IIRC there was talk about reopening the A380 line. Anyone who knows if there is anything to that?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 24 March 2024, 16:41:27
and those duties will be done by something else, probably made in Europe or China, when they run out of spares to keep the current Airforce One functional.
legally they can't. by the military regulations it has to be produced in the USA. so if airbus does end up with the contract, they'd have to build a factory for their A380 in the states.
and a chinese company is going to be a no-go due to current geopolitics, even if they did offer to build a factory in the states for it.

and the latest version of the VC-25, the VC-25B, are being delivered later this year. (they're derived from the 747-8I)
no doubt the USAF will be going over them with a fine toothed comb to make sure Boeing didn't screw anything up, and will fix anything they find.
as for spare parts.. the avionics and engines on the new VC-25B's are the same ones used on the 787, with the avionics augmented with the current USAF hardware. so as long as they don't take any major structural damage, they'll be able to keep it flying for decades due to the commonality.


i honestly wouldn't be surprised if we don't see users of the 747 upgrading their aircraft to similar set ups using the 787's engines and avionics in order to keep them flying longer.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 24 March 2024, 20:53:15
The 747 freighter is going to stay around for a little while longer. The big selling point is that the nose can open up all the other freighters can’t.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: PsihoKekec on 25 March 2024, 01:19:31
IIRC there was talk about reopening the A380 line. Anyone who knows if there is anything to that?

There are couple of interested parties, but not enough to justify the costs, especially since the whole program was a net loss to Airbus.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 25 March 2024, 12:24:08
Image I saw of various 4th gen fighters showing 3 main groupings:

1) Tailless delta with single tail. Both with and without canards
Mirage 4000, F-16XL, Typhoon, Rafale, J-10, Gripen, Lavi, Mirage 2000, Tejas

2) Cropped tailed delta with single fin (and single engine aside from the F-CK-1)
F-2, F-16, F-CK-1, JF-17, F-20, FA-50

3) Twin engine, twin tail
Su-27, F-15, F-14, F/A-18E, MiG-29, F/A-18A/C

(https://i.redd.it/0bgieswg6gqc1.jpeg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 25 March 2024, 16:47:49
The Su-27 is such a big plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 25 March 2024, 17:05:44
So is the F-14...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 25 March 2024, 20:29:06
With the wings out for the Tomcat, yes its a big plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 26 March 2024, 11:32:49
The Su-27 is such a big plane.

Different aerodynamics than the Eagle. Benefit of an additional decade or so of research, but also, the Eagle is aerodynamically conservative even for the F-X contest. The North American proposal (NA-335) has more pronounced wing-body blending and an underslung intake, foreshadowing the F-16, but also the complex shaping and wing planform has some resemblance to the Su-27

McDonnell Douglas was picked as the winner of the F-X competition in 1969 and the Eagle prototype first flight is in 1972, so it's based on mid-late 1960s aerodynamics and materials.

The Flanker first flight is only 5 years later (1977), but you can see the prolonged tweaking of aerodynamics (and capabilities in response to learning more about the F-15) between then and actual entry into service in the mid-80s (and the troubled development period with several fatal crashes and requirement for FBW that the MiG-29 didn't have).

(https://imgur.com/4WYavC9.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/9DR8DAR.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/bnTAxnO.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/NoaIRhT.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 05 April 2024, 08:24:17
Can anyone explain me the nature of this pic?

(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/435104352_1086476892424746_767708948260202065_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p960x960&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=UNwcyf85D4wAb4Ns6Fn&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCMwqhZF93A91deJdzG87Y1J3r5SU8yzd53hmTpxhXNEQ&oe=6615B4D8)

Because I want to say, they made an Air Force One for G.I. Joe...

Where's Cobra version?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 05 April 2024, 08:54:44
Where's the 'motorised wench' ??
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 April 2024, 09:16:27
It's obviously some sort of fan work.  The GI Joe Mobile Command Center was a giant brick of a ground vehicle who's gimmick was to unfold into a three-level structure with a service bay for smaller vehicles and multiple consoles to place action figures at.  It was not a knock-off of Air Force One.

https://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/87/mobilecommandcenter/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 05 April 2024, 11:27:14
Because I want to say, they made an Air Force One for G.I. Joe...

Where's Cobra version?
Early Cobra stuff tended to be easy to tote around and hide, cause they werent a match in a stand up fight. Like you could fit two FANGs or a HISS in the trailer of a semi. But they had this thing in the cartoon.

(https://preview.redd.it/cobra-transport-carrier-v0-a2dfaevl9yob1.jpg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=490c5ea753ad49424106cc38cc3109b3a1531ae9)

Also a helicarrier, but that more their equivalent to the USS Flagg.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Garrand on 05 April 2024, 11:53:16
For a terrorist organization waging a secret war against the world, subtlety apparently was not really their thing...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 05 April 2024, 11:58:00
Thank you Grognards of Olde'!

With well aged and bodied minds, our younger selves relive the battles of yore...

*cough-cough-wheeze*

Eh? Where was I? Befuddles me mind me has... *struggles to remember, gives up, scratches his metaled butt before going off to sleep in a big comfy chair...*

*starts to snore*

But yeah, it was strange the stuff they came up with and the backstories, we ate it up, didn't we? Couldn't wait to see the next episode, damnable chores and homework lingering, threating "our" Joe/Cobra time.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 05 April 2024, 12:01:07
You know its a bad day, when the Tug for the aircraft comes with 20mm guns.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 05 April 2024, 12:04:26
You know its a bad day, when the Tug for the aircraft comes with 20mm guns.

That fires *Blue* when in use...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 05 April 2024, 16:18:40
Where's the 'motorised wench' ??
This is also my question... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 07 April 2024, 18:38:12
For a terrorist organization waging a secret war against the world, subtlety apparently was not really their thing
They had their own island nation as time went on. When you're a military state/cult you're expected to have your logo everywhere. But yeah, the cartoon tended to go for spectacle over the comics version of Cobra, which was a lot less 'Saturday Morning Villain' in competency.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Ruger on 07 April 2024, 19:22:53
They had their own island nation as time went on. When you're a military state/cult you're expected to have your logo everywhere. But yeah, the cartoon tended to go for spectacle over the comics version of Cobra, which was a lot less 'Saturday Morning Villain' in competency.

Of course, to get the island, they didn’t do it the old fashioned way (buying it). Instead, at least in the comics, they had the Joes create it for them, just outside all territorial waters, so they could have their own UN approved legal rights to it.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 April 2024, 21:47:32
I don't believe the cartoon ever dealt with issues of how Cobra got any of its stuff, aside from Destro being rich thanks to his businesses.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 08 April 2024, 00:05:56
I don't believe the cartoon ever dealt with issues of how Cobra got any of its stuff, aside from Destro being rich thanks to his businesses.

Ahem.

Extensive Enterprises

Owned and operated by Tomax & Xamot Paoli, the Crimson Twins, leaders of the Crimson Guards, an Elite Cobra Viper group with a degree in either Law or Financing.

Advat Cobra-ling here... I have almost 30 SW Stormtrooper Corps Vipers in my collection. Hail Emperor Serpentor Palpatine, Sith Master! (Yes, I went there...)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 08 April 2024, 11:53:52
I think we can assume that Cartoon Cobra got it's money the same way Comics Cobra did...
Pyramid schemes, money laundering, Con jobs, and bank robbery. It's just usually those arent flashy so why bother putting it on screen? We do see a few big money schemes.

Later we have Extensive Enterprises which is a 'totally legit' business, although the cartoon doesnt really go into details about what they actually do. Whatever plot demands usually. But probably finance, legal, and merchandising.

Destro isnt TECHNICALLY Cobra, although the cartoon kinda glosses over that. He's the owner of MARS Industries, which is an independant weapons manufacture. IE, he's who Cobra is handing over all their money too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 08 April 2024, 17:13:09
CT-156 Harvard II (Canadian version of the Beech/Pilatus T-6 Texan II) flying with an original Harvard (North American T-6 Texan)

(https://imgur.com/xkhIpwT.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 08 April 2024, 18:20:08
How very Tucano-like the new one looks... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 08 April 2024, 18:32:01
That's a very heritage scheme there. The RCAF has long used the Maple Leaf roundel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 08 April 2024, 18:49:26
How very Tucano-like the new one looks... ;)

Modern-ish turboprop trainers all tend to look alike even more than jet trainers do, since the requirements are similar - aerobatics capable, turbine engines like pretty much anything a military pilot will fly with more performance than a GA aircraft, but also rugged and easy to maintain because students inevitably result in some rough handling. They almost all even use the same family of engines (Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6).

They definitely tend to about the weight and power of an early WW2 fighter (think Battle of Britain planes) with weight saved by the engine coming back as avionics and ejections seats. Longer due to the second ejection seat, and I assume the squared off wings and control surfaces make for easier construction and repair, but that means that all the trainers (adding the KAI KT-1 Woongbi and TAI Hürkuş) look a bit like a cross between an Me109 and a P-51D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 08 April 2024, 18:59:19
That makes sense to me! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 08 April 2024, 19:11:49
RAF Shorts Tucano T.1
(https://imgur.com/bf1tJRi.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/E2r8KqK.jpg)

The replacement Beechcraft T-6 Texan T.1
(https://imgur.com/NfyDX5k.jpg)

And a Super Tucano for reference
(https://imgur.com/6gCHPUl.jpg)

KA-1 (light attack member of the KAI family)
(https://imgur.com/NUxM2VH.jpg)

TAI Hürkuş
(https://imgur.com/0iYtDme.jpg)

HAL HTT-40 - a bit unusual in that it doesn't use a PT-6
(https://imgur.com/43hvk5O.jpg)

RAAF Pilatus PC-21
(https://imgur.com/mgyxVDU.jpg)

Also, dark gloss paint also seems to be used by Canada and New Zealand for trainers as well, although the Kiwis and Brits seem to go for black while the Canadian planes are a dark navy.
(https://imgur.com/IozWdXh.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/AYQIQS5.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 08 April 2024, 19:25:36
Heh... I guess they assume new pilots won't drag their tails... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Garrand on 09 April 2024, 11:12:05
On a recent trip back & forth from Ecuador to the US, I got to see Ecuador's Super Tucanos lined up on the tarmac at Manta International Airport (which also doubles as an airbase for the FAE). In another trip back & forth via Guayaquil, I saw one of Ecuador's retired Mirage F.1s. At least it was a thrill for me...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 09 April 2024, 12:22:50
I love that really dark blue color. I wish i could find that in a good paint color....want to paint some mechs like that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 April 2024, 12:29:37
I do love heritage paint schemes on prop trainers.

USAF/USAAF
(https://imgur.com/zl98ncP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/G9vmIuU.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/paXh2L2.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/Y2mUKVI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/9QZ78OU.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/5Pvf2Ja.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/tZcir0L.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/FbpAfuI.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/nErlgV2.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/WnZsWpj.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/EZNAzbw.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/K7rQJ1m.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/AvGjweL.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/6vLmudk.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/lKQyP1Y.jpg)

Not heritage, but the new modern overall low-visibility grey. Considering the USAF only uses it for basic flight training, there's no real point to using a low-vis scheme. It'd arguably benefit more from something bright to help with spotting in case of accidents/VFR avoidance
(https://imgur.com/d7PKJSP.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/zlNT8Wi.jpg)

Texan and Texan II
(https://imgur.com/Cfo0BN4.jpg)

The older two-tone paint scheme is pretty sporty
(https://imgur.com/75WaeU9.jpg)

Navy heritage paint scheme. I know it says Marines, but it also says Navy on the other side
(https://imgur.com/CzU9N91.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/iItZcLx.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/eSO0RT7.jpg)

RCAF Heritage Harvard II and the demonstrator team Hornet
(https://imgur.com/6oRA5Lx.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 April 2024, 12:42:34
I love that really dark blue color. I wish i could find that in a good paint color....want to paint some mechs like that.

Listed under "Roundel Blue"
https://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colour_Guide/aircraft_clr.html

I think the US Navy WW2 dark blue is a bit blue-r
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 09 April 2024, 12:49:40
now for something weird...

(https://airandspace.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/body_large/public/images/editoral-stories/thumbnails/3996_640.jpg?itok=LTtv_38P)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 April 2024, 15:54:32
The old Flying Pancake.  It boggles the mind how that aircraft was able to operate.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 April 2024, 20:45:20
Aerodynamics is a deep magic unto itself.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 April 2024, 23:08:06
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FgZ9dh-qz40

Spitfire flypast
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Elmoth on 10 April 2024, 04:22:32
I love that really dark blue color. I wish i could find that in a good paint color....want to paint some mechs like that.

https://www.amazon.es/Vallejo-Model-Color-ACrylic-Prussian/dp/B000PH9JNC

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41FTEyN8rsL._AC_SL1024_.jpg)

Looks like dark prussian blue to me.

Or prussian blue with a black undercoat or a black wash.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 10 April 2024, 17:09:16
Navy Blue is darker than that... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 April 2024, 17:14:37
That Dark Blue looks so good on those aircraft, in person probaly looks that much better.

It reminds me of the really dark blue (almost black IMHO) that was on the US Airways airplanes pre-America West Merger.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 11 April 2024, 16:23:07
now for something weird...

(https://airandspace.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/body_large/public/images/editoral-stories/thumbnails/3996_640.jpg?itok=LTtv_38P)

I wonder what her armaments would have been, back then, if any?

Be real interesting to say at the least.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 April 2024, 16:37:53
well, the V-173 didn't have any guns since it was just a flight demonstrator, but the uncompleted XF5U would have had 6x .50cal MG's in the wingroots on either side of the cockpit, and hard points for a pair of 1000lb bombs underneath (which presumably also would have been able to carry external fuel tanks)

(https://tvd.im/uploads/posts/2021/08/vought-xf5u-flying-flapjack_4.jpg)
(https://tvd.im/uploads/posts/2021/08/vought-xf5u-flying-flapjack_3.jpg)
(https://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/uploads/9/1/7/5/9175276/2347447_orig.jpg)

sadly it came around just too late.. by the time the design got finalized and the first test model started being built in 1947, ww2 was over and jet aircraft were the big focus of interest.

ironically, at the same time that it was being cancelled, vought was already working on a jet carrier fighter for the same role.. the ill fated F7U Cutlass..
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 12 April 2024, 02:00:22
Ah, the nutless Cutlass ...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/F7U_Cutlass.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbHlZ1GMsjnRp0AE8M1CuBwSpcHIGfVMACOYQPFoxuww&s)

Such a beautiful looking airframe, which wouldn't look out of place in the BattleTech universe. Cursed by poor Westinghouse engines, and the technical immaturity which forced the absurdly long (and fragile) nose gear to provide angle of attack for takeoff (and which caused no end of landing issues, both from viewpoint & pilot impalement perspectives.) One of the more intriguing "what might have been" cases.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 April 2024, 09:49:55
The way the nose and cockpit droop down it looks like it'd have fantastic forward visibility.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 April 2024, 14:40:10
The way the nose and cockpit droop down it looks like it'd have fantastic forward visibility.

Not with that nose gear.

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/45/d4/1b/45d41b3a3f5e07a1db8479276c6e2319--scale-models-google-search.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Luciora on 12 April 2024, 15:01:13
So very Wing Commander.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 April 2024, 16:04:40
biggest problem the cutlass had was the control system.. Hydraulics, with no alternate manual backup and no safety system built in to ensure hydraulics pressure in the event that the pump isn't working. the system also leaked badly, so even if the engine powered pumps were working, the control would lose responsiveness over time anyway.
combine that with the underpowered engines prone to flaming out... it's amazing that the USN didn't lose more of the aircraft to accidents than they did.
(also the fact that the ejection seat, which was a new feature at the time, was overly sensative and prone to accidental firing. so most pilots disabled it. in a plane that was prone to losing power and the controls going unresponsive.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 12 April 2024, 16:06:29
biggest problem the cutlass had was the control system.. Hydraulics, with no alternate manual backup and no safety system built in to ensure hydraulics pressure in the event that the pump isn't working. the system also leaked badly, so even if the engine powered pumps were working, the control would lose responsiveness over time anyway.
combine that with the underpowered engines prone to flaming out... it's amazing that the USN didn't lose more of the aircraft to accidents than they did.
(also the fact that the ejection seat, which was a new feature at the time, was overly sensative and prone to accidental firing. so most pilots disabled it. in a plane that was prone to losing power and the controls going unresponsive.)

so basically your prototype that engages in New Toy Syndrome without much safety concern.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 12 April 2024, 17:35:50
It was an awkward stage in development; coming off the war R&D cycle, lots of new toys, lots of basics (eg. area ruling) not yet identified, etc.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 April 2024, 18:12:39
I bet a lot of issues in that period end up back at the feet of unreliable and underpowered engines. The only recourse would have been to slow development - ie designing planes around proven/existing engines, but the appetite for risk and ambition of the time meant design compromises that might not have made it past the proof-of-concept stage ended up in service.

The Allies had a fair number of WW2 designs that died on the drawing board or prototype phase simply because logistically, it wasn't worth upsetting the existing apple cart to add in a new design that was only slightly better.

You can have a great engine in a bad plane, but you can't have a great plane with bad engines.

so basically your prototype that engages in New Toy Syndrome without much safety concern.

I mean, the 50s were a time of almost wartime-levels of risk-taking, without the wartime scarcity worries. You wouldn't say, stop P-40 or early P-51 production to crank out a couple wings worth of P-75 Eagles just to try out mid-1943, but apparently in 1949, the Navy was just fine throwing that many pilots away.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 12 April 2024, 18:15:45
Ah, the nutless Cutlass ...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/F7U_Cutlass.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbHlZ1GMsjnRp0AE8M1CuBwSpcHIGfVMACOYQPFoxuww&s)

Such a beautiful looking airframe, which wouldn't look out of place in the BattleTech universe. Cursed by poor Westinghouse engines, and the technical immaturity which forced the absurdly long (and fragile) nose gear to provide angle of attack for takeoff (and which caused no end of landing issues, both from viewpoint & pilot impalement perspectives.) One of the more intriguing "what might have been" cases.

I give pretty good odds that it's the inspiration for the Lucifer. Just add canards and extend the fuselage a little more and move the vertical stabilizers onto the fuselage instead of hanging out there on the wing. Even the fluff about the Lucifer's legion of issues seems inspired by the Cutlass

(https://imgur.com/dr8uTtW.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 12 April 2024, 18:40:18
Legion of issues, yes... design overall?  Not so sure...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 14 April 2024, 01:50:36
Legion of issues, yes... design overall?  Not so sure...

That's because it's drawn from an unusual angle. The little scallop between the jet pipes and the doming cockpit are distinctive and not really something you see elsewhere. The Lucifer has a more triangular wing, leaving the fins to be moved back to the fuselage, and a bit more of a 'neck' to move the cockpit forward, but those details and the flattened fuselage shape seem very Cutlass-y, even when you don't factor in the fluff.

(https://imgur.com/ki3b4FO.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 14 April 2024, 07:09:01
Good points! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 18 April 2024, 02:09:07
More F-104s

(https://imgur.com/hduoPm6.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/cUNIQNc.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/koVqQpj.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/j8tIx5L.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 18 April 2024, 03:46:03
Ain't no Starfighter like a ZELL Starfighter!

(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/ZeLL_10.jpg?fit=1200%2C803&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: I am Belch II on 18 April 2024, 08:12:36
The F-104 Starfighter was such a awesome iconic plane. It looks better with those stubby thin wings holding fuel tanks over missiles IMHO.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Porshadoxus on 18 April 2024, 11:14:46
Both of these F-15E models had my name on the side.
TN 207 was 391st FS, 366 FW at Mountain Home AFB, Idaho.

TN 326 was 492 FS, 48 FW at RAF Lakenheath, UK. Although the red tail flash indicates 494 FS from a later date.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: truetanker on 18 April 2024, 13:28:43
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/436446542_3679559985694704_7401595035821133862_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p843x403&_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=dMkhHcydFlQAb7WuHi7&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCadfOpsQAsTZGQ_qkMnfe8cP_r63_-UrN8AMEL7Hh0tg&oe=66272E39)

Nice...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 18 April 2024, 14:21:18
F-4s carrying AIM-4 Falcons

(https://imgur.com/kOR64tB.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/GVcbS94.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Gorgon on 18 April 2024, 16:32:49
(https://disciplesofflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Nem_parachute_plane.jpg)(https://disciplesofflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Nemeth-Parasol_2.jpg)



I recently discovered this fantastically weird plane, the Nemeth Parasol, a circular wing design from the '30s. The best thing is, there's even some surviving video footage documenting one of the test flight!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzjpXLKLx1s
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 April 2024, 20:02:59
A whopping 12 B-2 Spirit stealth bombers took to the skies to cap off the recent Spirit Vigilance exercise. This was so many of the bombers that none of the official pictures from the event show all 12 aircraft at once. This one got closest with 11.

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/04/18/B-2-lineup.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 April 2024, 21:14:50
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-us-military-is-keeping-it-secret-who-won-the-real-world-dogfight-between-a-human-pilot-and-an-ai-flying-an-f-16-fighter-jet/ar-AA1nkfed
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 April 2024, 23:53:20
I'm guessing that means that the AI didn't come close to performing as advertised.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 20 April 2024, 05:14:34
Me too... given how real-world pilots usually fare in the high-end flight combat simulators.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 21 April 2024, 11:27:07
(https://images.spot.im/image/upload/q_70,fl_lossy,dpr_3,h_100,w_98,c_scale/v200/8ed219ecae7d01beaa0a89410cc841b4)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 April 2024, 05:19:12
It only hurts because it's true
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 April 2024, 12:51:39
(https://vintageaviationnews.com/wp-content/uploads/F-101-VoodooRObert-F.-Dorr-Collection1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Luciora on 28 April 2024, 12:57:40
Such a beaut.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 28 April 2024, 13:26:43
When did the Air Force stop using the Navy refueling method?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 April 2024, 17:40:59
When did the Air Force stop using the Navy refueling method?

the "navy" refueling method was developed by the USAF.  Drogue-and-probe was the FIRST method they used.

(https://www.wearethemighty.com/uploads/2023/11/05/KB-50J-F-100.jpeg?auto=webp&optimize=high&crop=16:9,smart&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1440)

Yes, that's a B-50, aka product improved B-29, only that's a KB-50, one of the very first in-service aerial refueling platforms ever.  Please note the service marking.

tey also built one on the Boeing 307 platform, and developed the big refueling probe everyone is familiar with concurrently...

(https://www.floridamemory.com/fpc/prints/pr00114.jpg)

Please to note the era in both pics.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 28 April 2024, 18:28:36
Good to know, thanks!  Still wondering when they stopped using drogue and probe... :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 28 April 2024, 20:54:00
i think sometime in the 60's, after retiring their older refueling aircraft for the KC-135.

they developed both methods, but the USAF ended up going all in on the flying boom set up because of the strategic air command's needs. the big bombers tended to be very fuel hungry, plus they were frequently being kept in the air for prolonged periods of time. so they were refueling often. the probe and drogue system couldn't pump fuel fast enough to refuel the big bombers efficiently. so they went in for the booms, which while heavier and needing a bigger plane, could move the fuel fast.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 28 April 2024, 21:45:35
Its also worth noting that modern USAF tankers can do both, they have multiple systems in place. Cause they refuel more then just USAF planes.



Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 29 April 2024, 00:15:30
my understanding is that a flying boom equipped tanker can have a drogue hooked to the end of the boom to handle the other system.. but it has to be done on the ground before the mission, it can't be done mid-air. the USAF just makes sure that they have their tankers configured to handle whichever aircraft they've been routed to service before sending the orders out.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 29 April 2024, 02:16:47
tey also built one on the Boeing 307 platform, and developed the big refueling probe everyone is familiar with concurrently...

I can't find a stall speed for the B-47, but I did find this:

Quote
During refueling, the B-47 flew just above stall speed while the KC-97 flew at full throttle

The 307 had a cruising speed of 220mph, and a max speed of 250mph; the KC-97 (the B-29 based frame) had a cruise of 230mph, and a max of 400 (altitude not specified.)

Look how nose-up the B-47 is ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 29 April 2024, 08:41:12
Thanks!  The 60s sounds reasonable.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 29 April 2024, 12:36:06
my understanding is that a flying boom equipped tanker can have a drogue hooked to the end of the boom to handle the other system.. but it has to be done on the ground before the mission, it can't be done mid-air. the USAF just makes sure that they have their tankers configured to handle whichever aircraft they've been routed to service before sending the orders out.
Modern tankers are built with both systems (KC-10, KC-46), or are being retrofitted to have both (KC-135) through the use of wingtip tanks. Note this KC-135, from a seven year old video, refueling Australian F/A-18s. Currently unsure how many KC-135's were modified for this, but the adaptor option is still around.

https://youtu.be/LlKY5kLsih8

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Cannonshop on 30 April 2024, 22:16:20
(https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/NATO_E-7_Wedgetail_AWACS_Replacement_1.jpeg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 May 2024, 05:33:00
This could go either here or Naval pictures, really. 

https://twitter.com/CcibChris/status/1785690170756370547

"Unusual image. This particular photo taken in Jan 1928 and is known as one of most unique and special photos ever taken of a particular ship due to this event only happening once in naval history. picture shows USS Saratoga (CV-3) with ZR-3 Los Angeles Zeppelin on board her deck"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 02 May 2024, 05:50:07
Had to include this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Zr3nearvertical.jpg)

Which it survived with only minor damage. Built in Germany as part of reparations from WW1, the ZR3 was the only US Navy rigid airship to survive without 'catastrophic incident', being dismantled in 1939.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 May 2024, 23:47:39
According to Twitter:

"If you go to Google Maps and type in Whiteman AFB and zoom in on the runway, there’s an example of really bad timing for the Google sky cam to have taken a photo at that moment."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 05 May 2024, 00:12:09
Dick Rutan just passed away, age 85, with more accomplishments in aeronautics than one could poke an aileron at. But let's try a few ...

(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-423653ece3b620ec429e2226a33700bf.webp)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WpvIL4N2hL12BRTfmgK1_xSQ-hPQ0rzfWUeX0eIc994nriondmT4yBquqb3_SV8V9axL-rd2_cAc3B2cMsDfgOXXPzQ7YTyH1kXXAYlZGd6gR9Q)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOEl0DfBzQDCQKYGQGp4h-XdAaIBsNAwYNrD_MsncdTloPu-HrFQki1msVPHwddFP25Uo&usqp=CAU)

(https://cdn.britannica.com/01/124501-050-48DB0DD6/Burt-Rutan-SpaceShipOne.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 05 May 2024, 09:09:17
That's a sad loss... :/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Luciora on 05 May 2024, 11:33:48
Found online
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Euphonium on 07 May 2024, 13:12:09
Found online

I didn't know Death had traded the pale horse in for a pale plane, never mind getting a custom registration!

My favourite Britis plane registration was this one:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 07 May 2024, 14:04:49
Found online

One of our cadet tow planes for gliding 25 years ago was a Cessna Bird Dog with the registration C-FTAL.

https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/201021405/c-ftal-1956-cessna-l19-305c-bird-dog
https://skiesmag.com/news/purplehillaircompletescessnal19birddogrestoration/

It's actually one of the skins for the L-19 add-on in MS Flight Simulator 2020
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 09 May 2024, 14:31:09
Nothing to see here, just a California ANG F-106 lobbing a nuke:

(https://i.redd.it/q1zhzoayfbzc1.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 May 2024, 18:16:27
What kind of nuke?

Seems pretty small...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 09 May 2024, 18:55:14
What kind of nuke?

Seems pretty small...

AIR-2 Genie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie) unguided air-to-air rocket with a 1.5 kiloton W25 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W25_(nuclear_warhead)) warhead on a timer. 6.2 mile (10km) range, 12 second flight time.

In theory, it's aimed and guided by ground control (SAGE) using a collision-course intercept.

In practice, it's a time-delay fuse with an estimated 300m lethal radius, which means uh... you'd need something like 2.25 MOA accuracy firing something with a 12 second flight time from a moving aircraft at another moving aircraft.

My only thought is that maybe the weapons designer was thinking of WW2-style mass bomber fleets and not widely-dispersed nuclear bombers spread out across the sky. I don't recall any reports of testing of the ground-intercept air-to-air rocket combination, but I'd bet any proof of ineffectiveness were quietly lost, other than this case:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160811-the-runaway-drone-that-caused-a-cold-war-air-battle
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 10 May 2024, 23:59:02
AIR-2 Genie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie) unguided air-to-air rocket with a 1.5 kiloton W25 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W25_(nuclear_warhead)) warhead on a timer. 6.2 mile (10km) range, 12 second flight time.

In theory, it's aimed and guided by ground control (SAGE) using a collision-course intercept.

In practice, it's a time-delay fuse with an estimated 300m lethal radius, which means uh... you'd need something like 2.25 MOA accuracy firing something with a 12 second flight time from a moving aircraft at another moving aircraft.

My only thought is that maybe the weapons designer was thinking of WW2-style mass bomber fleets and not widely-dispersed nuclear bombers spread out across the sky. I don't recall any reports of testing of the ground-intercept air-to-air rocket combination, but I'd bet any proof of ineffectiveness were quietly lost, other than this case:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160811-the-runaway-drone-that-caused-a-cold-war-air-battle

The Genie was a product of the early 1950s, with development beginning in 1951 and the missile operational by 1956.  The original idea was to counter formations of Tu-4 Bulls (the reverse-engineered B-29s in Soviet service), and I'm sure bombers in tight formations were on their mind.  But, even if they weren't, with guided missile technology in its infancy and not ready for deployment yet, machine guns inadaquate to shoot down more advanced bombers, and the unguided "Mighty Mouse" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding-Fin_Aerial_Rocket) rocket clusters not offering much chance of really taking down a bomber either, the idea of using waves of Genie missiles against incoming bombers seemed the most viable method of shooting them down at the time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 May 2024, 01:37:06
Ah, the 50s, when "let's nuke it" was seen as a viable option for every issue.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 11 May 2024, 02:33:39
The Genie was a product of the early 1950s, with development beginning in 1951 and the missile operational by 1956.  The original idea was to counter formations of Tu-4 Bulls (the reverse-engineered B-29s in Soviet service), and I'm sure bombers in tight formations were on their mind.  But, even if they weren't, with guided missile technology in its infancy and not ready for deployment yet, machine guns inadaquate to shoot down more advanced bombers, and the unguided "Mighty Mouse" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding-Fin_Aerial_Rocket) rocket clusters not offering much chance of really taking down a bomber either, the idea of using waves of Genie missiles against incoming bombers seemed the most viable method of shooting them down at the time.

Sometimes, there are no real answers. I don't think the Genie concept was ever particularly workable as an operational concept and they never even bothered with a live test engagement. The only test detonation of a Genie was the publicity shot. I'd say that a gun interception with a swept-wing jet interceptor should have been viable*, albeit dangerous as hell since the Tu-4 swapped out the B-29's .50s for 23mm cannon one-for-one. It's the Tu-16 on a one-way trip or a Tu-95 that fighters would be hard-pressed to catch, but they'd be hard-pressed to get a Genie within launch parameters too. Not only does it have to be within 2.25 MOA dispersion, but the timing on the fuse would have to be within about half a second in order to not overshoot or undershoot the target (~900 m/s) assuming the target didn't react at all.

2.25 MOA isn't remotely practical with aircraft guns even now, let alone a giant folding fin rocket in the 50s. Nuclear security theatre maybe. I don't think a serious air defence system would be deploying AIM-4 Falcon missiles all the way into the 80s (Falcon/Genie was the weapons fit for both the Canadian CF-101 Voodoos and USAF F-106s in NORAD)

*
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 May 2024, 03:38:23
i'd argue that the main reason they were interested in nuclear warhead AAM's at the time was the lack of reliable guidance systems for missiles. so long as you could set the timer and course right before firing, the big AOE on a nuclear blast would be likely to down a bomber, even if the missile itself didn't come anywhere close to hitting. as soon as they got guidance systems that could reliably track and hit targets, the use of nuclear warhead anti-aircraft missiles stopped in the west. (the soviets kept at it a little longer, but given how their electronics tech tended to lag behind america/NATO, it's not surprising they'd want to retain the option. they mostly focused on ground launched nuclear SAM's though)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: worktroll on 11 May 2024, 03:49:07
Both lack of guidance options, and expectation of massed bomber formations. Both changed. Albeit with the Falcon, not necessarily for the better ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: nerd on 11 May 2024, 20:35:20
Nuclear SAMs were also produced, including RIM-8 Talos, CIM-10 Bomarc and MIM-14 Nike Hercules. Notably, some were estimated to be lethal within a kilometer of the target.

It was a response to a problem solved by improved electronics.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 11 May 2024, 21:16:50
Nuclear SAMs were also produced, including RIM-8 Talos, CIM-10 Bomarc and MIM-14 Nike Hercules. Notably, some were estimated to be lethal within a kilometer of the target.

It was a response to a problem solved by improved electronics.

There were nuclear SA-2 'Guideline' (S-75 Dvina) SAMs too, but all of them had larger warheads than the Genie and were, of course, guided.
There was also a nuclear warhead option for the SARH AIM-26 Falcon variant due to concerns about accuracy. The usual quoted yield is 0.25 kT, but https://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html mentions a first-hand source claiming 1.5 kT, similar to the Genie. At least that one had guidance and fusing instead of the timer system of the Genie...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Garrand on 11 May 2024, 22:33:24
It's hard to say how Falcon's would have performed live, as they were intended.

In Vietnam they were used outside of parameters (i.e. they were meant to be launched from a supersonic interceptor flying fast & level towards a bomber). I think they'd have been a bit better vs Soviet bombers, as opposed to MiG-21s

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 May 2024, 18:03:15
Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works has released a new rendering of a stealthy aerial refueling tanker.

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/05/13/skunk-works-stealth-tanker-rendering.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2024, 18:16:22
It may have been released recently, but it looks like it was drawn some decades ago... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 May 2024, 19:29:22
What's the point of a stealth fuel tanker?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2024, 19:30:10
Denying enemy counter-air an easy kill... :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 May 2024, 19:36:12
I feel that once you have the fuel line extended and the jet you're filling in place, you're no longer quite that sneaky.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 14 May 2024, 19:40:43
Meanwhile, in the US Marine Corps...

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/05/08/paraglider-marsoc-drone-hunters.jpg)

From the War Zone (https://www.twz.com/air/marine-special-operations-paragliding-capabilities-emerge-at-tampa-showcase).

So, those would be VTOL (Microlite) Infantry, right?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 14 May 2024, 19:41:19
Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works has released a new rendering of a stealthy aerial refueling tanker.

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/05/13/skunk-works-stealth-tanker-rendering.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)

i prefer the Northrop design..
(https://aviationweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/crop_freeform/public/2023-04/northrop_grummanjetzero_tanker_jetzero.jpg?itok=k3UqIWax)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2024, 19:50:14
Gio: Vertical landing sure... but I don't think they can take off vertically... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 14 May 2024, 20:10:10
Gio: Vertical landing sure... but I don't think they can take off vertically... ;D

Not literally, but surprisingly close:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3hjxZhGaG0

Under BT rules, microlite infantry is a subset of VTOL infantry.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 May 2024, 20:12:26
i prefer the Northrop design..
(https://aviationweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/crop_freeform/public/2023-04/northrop_grummanjetzero_tanker_jetzero.jpg?itok=k3UqIWax)

Wasn't that in Godzilla: King of the Monsters?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 14 May 2024, 20:32:54
Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works has released a new rendering of a stealthy aerial refueling tanker.

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/05/13/skunk-works-stealth-tanker-rendering.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=2018)
There's something weird about the perspective and scaling of that art, like the F-35 looks like it's flying closer to the viewer than the tanker instead of being in trail formation. It also makes the F-35 cockpit look huge compared to that of the tanker.

i prefer the Northrop design..
(https://aviationweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/crop_freeform/public/2023-04/northrop_grummanjetzero_tanker_jetzero.jpg?itok=k3UqIWax)

Not particularly low observable though with those exposed engines and their fan blades, tall winglets, and podded tanks on the wings. Also, the high-mounted rear engines are going to be a pain in the ass to service or replace.

Also of note, the airframe isn't actually a Northrop design, but is based on the Z5 from startup JetZero.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 14 May 2024, 20:41:18
Wasn't that in Godzilla: King of the Monsters?

no that was an even larger flying wing stealth bomber thing, the Argo.

(https://www.scifijapan.com/images/Godzilla/Godzilla-KOTM2019-toho05.jpg)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5504ba81e4b030d1c7f9ce00/1554057457812-MIXM140MH770TL2RHXXB/GOJIFOLIO_066.jpg?format=2500w)


http://www.scottchambliss.com/godzilla
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: chanman on 14 May 2024, 20:43:41
Meanwhile, in the US Marine Corps...

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/05/08/paraglider-marsoc-drone-hunters.jpg)

From the War Zone (https://www.twz.com/air/marine-special-operations-paragliding-capabilities-emerge-at-tampa-showcase).

So, those would be VTOL (Microlite) Infantry, right?

Man, I thought that was clearly in the wacky, weird past, because I remember some PLA special forces groups were filmed with them 15-20 years ago.
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/W9C81H/chinese-pla-peoples-liberation-army-soldiers-equipped-with-powered-paraglider-run-during-a-military-drill-in-southwest-chinas-sichuan-province-23-a-W9C81H.jpg)

What's next, replacing Little Birds with autogyros?  :shocked: https://www.twz.com/air/h-6-little-birds-future-upended-due-to-army-axing-armed-scout-helicopter
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace
Post by: Goose on 14 May 2024, 20:49:21
Meanwhile, in the US Marine Corps...

From [snip].

So, those would be VTOL (Microlite) Infantry, right?
Alow me this digression: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/05/07/speeding-toward-ukrainian-lines-on-two-wheels-russias-motorcycle-troops-got-beaten-in-the-teeth/?sh=5ccd724b5439