I haven't tried it out yet, but I quite like the idea and the fluff text of the Stinger IIC.
I have the feeling that by the time of the Jihad and post-Jihad, that the primary uses of the Stinger would be in militia regiments and backwaters. It really doesn't have the speed or integrity to be a line unit, but it has plenty of uses as a budget scout for a strapped militia.
I consider Wasps and Stingers to be scouts and training 'Mechs that are not really to engage other 'Mechs.
’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
The largest problem the design had was the space allocated for the pilot. Apparently getting out of a Stinger required a can of WD-40 and a crowbar…
Should the Stinger be considered to have a small cockpit?
The article fails to mention that the Stinger, even in 3025, was seen primarily in training cadres and poorly equipped militia formations. It's not a designated training 'Mech, but apparently that's the job it sucks least at so that's what it's used for. And for terrorizing the public.
The article fails to mention that the Stinger, even in 3025, was seen primarily in training cadres and poorly equipped militia formations. It's not a designated training 'Mech, but apparently that's the job it sucks least at so that's what it's used for. And for terrorizing the public.actually, it would make a lousy training mech (cramped cockpit for one pilot and no room for a trainer, no real diversity of weapons for live fire training, not really durable enough to survive the inevitable falls as the trainee learns how to pilot..)
Look at where the Stinger came from. It's implied to be a blatant Wasp ripoff (although it was never decided in court), to the point of being all but a variant of that 'Mech. I recall a notion from somewhere that even the parts were largely interchangeable.
To wit, the Stinger is essentially a Wasp with MGs instead of a SRM-2.
Why would anybody want that? Don't know, ask the Star League quartermasters. It does make some (limited) sense when going against infantry, if you're not going to use infernos.
As for variants, well scream at me for coming up with an apocryphal source again but in The Crescent Hawks' Inception (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Crescent_Hawk%27s_Inception) the Steiner techs on Chara III can give you what seems to be a standard refit where they remove the MGs & ammo and replace them with two small lasers in each arm. I like that modification a lot.
There's an additional mod removing the JJs for two CT-mounted med lasers and extra armor; that one I don't like quite as much.
the small laser refit would be fairly simple, since MG's and SL's mass the same. you'd also have a spare ton from removing the MG ammo though.. no need for extra heatsinks, so where did it go in the Crescent hawk's refit? :-\There's a pair of small lasers in each arm for this variant.
I see Stingers as generic scout or picket 'mechs when you expect to face reasonable number of infantry. (This translates to all offensive and a fair chunk of defensive missions.) It can range far and wide without compromising the firepower of your main force. It's fast enough to move speedily on a strategic scale, so it can find the enemy, break contact quickly and report in, then harass them, going after infantry patrols, or lightly defended targets.
Indeed. The Stinger's natural predator on the modern battlefield are 6/9/x mediums with the range and firepower to cripple Stingers in the opening salvo.
The Uziel 2S could easily have been designed for the express purpose of mauling Stingers and Wasps, for how good it is at it.
On the other hand taking a couple of Level 1 Stingers in a mixed force means never having to whine about Infantry units outside of an Urban environment.
Although I've always liked the Stinger, it is very much outclassed on the modern battlefield, just as nerd says. That said however, it still has a place in militia units and it is dirt cheap BV and C-Bill wise.
I haven't tried it out yet, but I quite like the idea and the fluff text of the Stinger IIC.
I have the feeling that by the time of the Jihad and post-Jihad, that the primary uses of the Stinger would be in militia regiments and backwaters. It really doesn't have the speed or integrity to be a line unit, but it has plenty of uses as a budget scout for a strapped militia.
The Stinger/Wasp duo started the process that eventually drove me away from the idea of "cheap" Mech scouts.
The concept of a Stinger scouting can be basically summed up as: "we'll know where the enemy is when it stops reporting in".
Even back in 3025 the thing wasn't really fast enough to run away, and worthless as a combat unit. An Assassin is faster, and a Pixie will it it for lunch.
So either you go all out, cost be damned (LCT-6M), or you forget the entire idea of Scout Mechs, and optimize them for harrassing.
Use VTOLs or stealthy BA for actual scouting.
Though IMO, a guy on a motorbike is a better scout anyway.
You can hide everywhere, and you can at least try to make up excuses when the bad guys find you!
"Invasion? What invasion, i'm out here camping for the last two weeks! Radio? The point of this trip is getting away from civilisation!
Oh, those military binocs? Birdwatching man! Cost me a fortune, but i can count a Jaybirds feathers from half a mile out!
The rifle? Come on, you've seen a Stuffer Shack out here? I'm hunting my food!
What about that compact com unit, don't you guys know anything? Only a fool goes camping in the hills without a way to call the rangers is something goes south, like a broken leg!"
Try something like that after they've shot you out of your Stinger... 8)
Wasn't entirely serious there ;)
Point is, even if you might lose him as a recon asset, he has a better chance to hide and survive, be it in the wilds or in the city, than a guy in a 20 ton warmachine.
Even the TPTB joke at this, see TRO3085, Wolfhound.
And even if you really lose him, the bike costs a little bit less than the Mech!
As quite note about the Stinger in the Dark Age. A notable pilot of one was Jonah Levin (future Exarch of the RotS), he used one in 3110 on Kurragin while serving in the Republic Standing Guard. The thing was stripped down by ex-Mercs who sold them to the Republic for use. Stripped of Jumpjets, thing only had its ER ML and Rocket Launcher pack left to it. Facing down the House
Ma-Tzu Kai was interesting battle...
Dude: Citation PLEASE! Seeing that in 3110, Warrior house Ma-Tsu Kai is back? I want to know where this was printed so IIts in MWDA: Scorpion's Jar, Chapters 30 - 31. Republic's Expedition was sent into Capellan space find a lost Jumpship, Levin was Captain with the Kyrkbacken Militia. They were among forces fighting House Ma-Tzu Kai.
see that for myself!
Its in MWDA: Scorpion's Jar, Chapters 30 - 31. Republic's Expedition was sent into Capellan space find a lost Jumpship, Levin was Captain with the Kyrkbacken Militia. They were among forces fighting House Ma-Tzu Kai.
Personally, I want to see a Stinger with Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous armor, and a Light PPC, with 2 small Lasers.....You mean like the 3P ?
That would be, at least, useful as a sniper.
You mean like the 3P ?The 3P is great, unless you lose that right arm...
The 3P is great, unless you lose that right arm...
Hence the small lasers.
They also give you a slight punch if you do get a backshot, and cover the minimum of the Light PPC...... which should only happen if your opponent uses something that is fast enough that you can't get away.
Although the question remains.... has anyone refitted a stinger with Reflec armor?
I've noticed that a lot of the counters to the bug mechs are either pulse lasers or ERPPC's and TC's......
Maybe Reflec armor might help?
Nahuris
When me and my friends played the Clan invasion battles or at least clan tech vs the IS who faced them in the invasion any Stingers/Wasps I had always ended out smoking hulks or legless wrecks when trying to carry out their mission, although I did once charge a Thor with a Stinger and kinda ended out smeared over its torso as the MG ammo went up thanks to collision damage.
I just posted a batrep (found here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26692.0.html ) of a 3028 battle in which I used a Wasp 1D and a Stinger 3G and they both did fantastic and even went toe-to-toe with assaults and heavies!
In the SW era, I'd say they are superb scout and fast attack machines!
Of course, yer Wasp was one-shot during the withdrawal; and your opponent had more pressing matters. All the same, knowing how to use the little guys will certainly improve their chances. :)
-To the question about the Black Widow Company: Three Stingers (two in the recon lance) and a Wasp.
Still, the Stinger alone held up the advance of the Catapult and enemy Archer for several turns while my Wasp and Archers concentrated on the Goliath and Awesome. Without that delay single-handedly bought by the Stinger, the Catapult and enemy Archer would have had at least an extra turn or two to fire at the DropShip which would have cost me the game.And I look forward to seeing that! O0
The Stinger did its job and even knocked the enemy Archer off its feet once with a kick and it survived the battle. Both 20-tonners did so well that I will be using 20-tonners a lot more in the future.
I do understand their limitations. A single hit, especially from something like a Gauss Rifle, will be fatal and Pulse Lasers do take away a lot of their advantage of high to-hit modifiers, but I have played Kit Foxes with my Clan Wolf forces, which have similar speed and almost as bad armor, and have had the Kit Foxes do very well and even survive the battles.
Light 'Mechs have their uses and can be a very cheap way to distract the enemy and buy time for other forces when used correctly. I have used light 'Mechs successfully in enough battles now to believe that they have a legitimate combat role and shouldn't just be regulated to scouting.
To be fair, you can remove Stinger from your post and replace it with 'every 20 ton (Inner Sphere) 'Mech in existance'.Cockpit is 3 tons, gyro is going to be at least 2, that's 5 tons, or 25% of your weight on a Stinger. The cockpit on a vehicle only weighs 2 tons.
There are some inherent penalties to the lightest units, for example cockpit weight and Gyro weight taking up such a large percentage of their mass, maximum armor limits and so on. 30-35 tons, to me, is as light as I'd go in fielding a 'line' battlemech. 25 tonners and below, even at lower cost, simply have too many drawbacks and wont survive on the modern battlefield against well equipped units.
The IIC idea intrigued me until I saw the weapons load. Why HMLs on a 6/9 20 tonner??? Need to be able to move at least 11-12 for that to work. Clan built ERMLs would be a much better solution at 6/9. They lose some damage but gain range to not make you a sitting duck if you need to fight.
I like heavy lasers but not here.
Just wield it like a fairy carrying a shotgun:Best. Mental. Image. Ever.
Just wield it like a fairy carrying a shotgun: Flutter about and avoid attention and(more importantly) damage while the fight rages around you, and when the opportunity arises, blow someone's spine out through their chest and flit away before anyone else can respond. }:)
Best. Mental. Image. Ever.I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.
I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.
I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.
I'm much more of a hit them over the head with gauss slug or two from 15 hexes or so then lumber past their carcass player.
But that might be fun!
I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.
Citing the extremes does not make the middle any less effective. Just because something does it better doesn't mean the Stinger can't do its job well enough.
Weirdo, while I see where you are coming from, the Stinger IIC just does not have the mobility to pull it off with Clan tech on the field. It is barely faster than the 75 ton Timber Wolf, the 40 ton Viper carries more firepower while moving much faster, and the Fire Moth H is far faster and has more than double the firepower for about the same BV. About the only thing I can see using it for against a real opponent is a cheap, expendable urban combat 'Mech to provide support to dispersed infantry units and help them stall the enemy's thrust until your real forces can be brought to bear.
What Clan do you play, where top-of-the-line Omnis are the scout 'mech of choice for second-line troops and non-Clan militias? Such a powerful faction must surely already be ilClan, and us mere mortals simply haven't noticed yet. Can you do us a favor and break it to us gently, please?
As I said to Scotty, those were representative examples, not an exhaustive list. Just about everything beats the Stinger IIC in at least two ways, and most beat it in every way. Even a very highly specialized design like the Piranah beats it in every way and a number of designs with serious flaws like the Clint IIC blow it out of the water.
While it is being compared to top of the line equipment . . . I imagine it is also pretty cheap BV-wise?
I don't own the Prototypes Record Sheet book, does it include the IIC 2 record sheet?
BV 730 for the standard model; the value for the 2 doesn't seem to have made it into the MUL yet. MegaMekLab puts it at 1021 (and SSW, once I copy the MML version over manually, seems to agree), but that may not be the final answer because in both programs it also seems to come out half a ton underweight, so either the designers chose to randomly waste that weight or there's some detail missing yet. (Armor looks already maxed out, so that can't be it.)
I don't own the Prototypes Record Sheet book, does it include the IIC 2 record sheet?
It's 1097 BV. So yeah, you missed something. ;)
I could be wrong, but I do not believe they have ever released an Prototypes Unabridged.They put out a print book that I believe only covers the main variants in Prototypes, not the second (or more). This has put a serious crimp in writing articles on certain designs (I'm looking at you, Mad Cat III).
I would love it if they did so I could use the Svartalfa 2(since they always leave information
out in the Variants description, like how many shots it has)
Diablo48.... it's simple.
People ignore Stingers.......
Even the Stinger with the Rockets.
I've fielded Stingers, and even managed to just walk around to the back of my opponent, and he ignored it...... (I ran, but the terrain was crap, so, at best, I managed 4 hexes a round of actual movement)........
I am not sure why, but people see Stinger, and promptly decide it's a 20 ton waste.... they compare it to other designs, or cite how poor it is, and then promptly decide it's not worth chasing around.... so I hold them back, and then unleash them at the right time...... and no, I am not disparaging you. Nearly every player I have faced has laughed, and pointed out the Wolfhound, or some other mech, and then question me as to why I "wasted" a unit with the Stinger.
Usually, somewhere during that battle, I also get an "oh crap, I forgot that it was there" moment to savor......
Then, there is always the 3P... complete with a Light PPC.....
The thing with the Stinger is that once you spring it, people will probably hurt it, or kill it quick.. . but if you play it right, don't attract a lot of attention, and never leave it as the only target (unless that's part of the plan), you can pretty much run it around with impunity...... people just don't tend to pay attention to them.
Nahuris
Oh, it's not just me. I'm drawing from the stats currently included with MegaMek/MegaMekLab, so if there's something off with those they'll eventually need fixing for more than just my sake.
*tinkers*
Ah...I think I see. That version should actually be a full ton underweight because it drops the right arm iHML along with the AP Gauss, but disguises that by then maxing out the head armor for an extra half-ton (wasting seven points in the process ::)). Revert to the standard version's armor configuration and add the laser back in and you do end up at 1097 (and a potential 37 points of heat on a jumping alpha strike vs. the base ten DHS for dissipation -- ouch).
I hat to say this, but: As long as the RS hasn't been released, I can't tell you if you are right or wrong. Sorry.
@Weirdo.... You mean a 5/8 hammer with a 4/6 anvil is doing it wrong???
Seemed like when we were going through the old Tales of the Black Widow about half the mechs you got to use were stingers...
The IIC isn't a scout, it's a backstabber, like the classic Stinger
I don't know, sounds like pretty standard Dresden Files fare to me. ;)
I've always like the 3G Stinger in 3025 play as a scout-v-scout combat. That second medium laser gives it better concentrated punch than the stock or the stock Wasp. The jump mobility gives it an advantage over something like a Locust or a Commando.
Stingers aren't designed to be front combat units, but as scouts in the original setting they are very useful.
The best 20 by the way is the solitaire. I dare anyone ignore that mech for long.
Well, you have to admit -- it's kind of easy to be the best 20-tonner when you're both a full-blooded Clan design and manage to sneak an extra five tons past the judges. :D