Author Topic: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O  (Read 7853 times)

Firesprocket

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Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« on: 11 June 2017, 00:20:33 »
Before we begin our briefing today I will briefly discuss the Celestial Class of Omni Mechs. For the benefits of anyone who may have missed any earlier briefings, I have attached links to the information for you.  Please feel free to look over them on your own time as some references are drawn off of that material.

Sarna overview of the Manei Domini


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini

Additional information about implants
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=20507.msg1164613#msg1164613

Prior briefings of other Celestial classes
Deva:  http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=21376.msg478084#msg478084
Archangel:  http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=18562.0
Seraph:  http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=19192.msg431950#msg431950

Designed by Dr. Devon Cortland (aka Precentor Vapula), each Mech shares an aesthetic that is meant to keep their opponent unhinged and fill them with terror. The Celestial Mechs themselves are a tool for the most passionate and devoted of the Master of the Word of Blake, the Manei Domini, to carry out their missions with ruthless efficiency and in a manner designed to demoralize or outright break the morale of their opposition.

The majority of Celestials designs use a light engine to allow for a larger amount weapons when compared to a standard engine and a greater chance of survival when compared to use of an Inner Sphere produced XL engine. Each Celestial also features a small cockpit which makes piloting more difficult in comparison to a standard cockpit design. The cybernetic VDNI implants available to the Domini offset the larger difficulty that an non-augmented pilot would experience have trying to control the machine in the smaller, more cramped cockpit. C3i is also included as one might expect given it is at the core of Word of Blake tactical doctrine.

For additional information concerning Celestials feel free to look through supplemental briefing contained here:  http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Celestial_series

Celestial class Omni Mech Grigori

The Mech is named after a class of fallen angels from Christian religion. The Grigori is one of two different heavy Celestial Mechs. It has an abundance of pod space due to the advanced components that were used to construct the design. Eschewing the use of bulkier materials such as Endo Steel, Cortland elected to use Light Ferro armor, an XL gyro, and the previously mentioned Light engine found in other Celestials. Compared to a Clan Mech of similar weight the amount of space available between it and, say, a Vulture is similar.

Having almost half your weight dedicated to weapons and ample pod space would make it a welcome addition to any force. In order to achieve all this the Mech is forced into a smaller engine than Clan designed machines.  Most configurations make up for this by including Jump Jets and/or a Supercharger to improve mobility and speed in short burst. While the VDNI implants can assist in driving down the increase difficulty of having to jump around on a regular basis, there is something to be said for having the ability to sprint at an effective speed 100% of the time.

Configurations:

Invictus (Prime):  The Invictus consists of a mix of several different weapon systems with different weapons ranges.  At long range (18 hexes or more) it sports a Light PPC and an LRM-15 with two tons of ammunition.  When closing to medium range (15 hexes of less) it sports an MRM-20. At the shortest of ranges it has a Streak SRM 4 and Retractable Blade for melee.

This configuration is designed to be a jack of all trades when a working C3i network is in place. It does nothing exceptionally well. Instead, in theory, it offers a good amount of medium range fire power to support other units.  Ammo for all weapons is kept in the right torso with a layer of CASE. Unfortunately, if one of those magazines goes off then the Mech is left with only a functional LPPC and the retractable blade to provide offensive punch.

Dominus (A):  The Dominus is a reliable machine. It features one main long range weapon, a Heavy PPC, backed up with ER Medium and Medium Pulse lasers, and a Streak 6 SRM. This variant also has jump jets which will allow it to hold its own over broken terrain. While all Celestials are to a degree ‘team player’ designs, this variant should effectively hold its own if the C3i link is severed by ECM.

Infernus (B):  This variant includes jump jets for mobility and a weapon load that consists of a Plasma Rifle, 2 MML-7s with Artemis, a Medium Pulse Laser, and an ER Small in the rear arc. The weapons are decent, but nothing to write home about. This is another one of those designs that is either a team player or a specialist.
The Plasma Rifle is unquestionably one of the best weapons in existence for the utility it brings to the battlefield.  MMLs give you a multitude of different munitions that you can launch at either long range or short range. The Medium Pulse laser gives you that extra firepower at knife fighting range.  CASE is included to safe guard the ammo.

Where this configuration experiences issues is the lack of necessary ammo reserves for the MMLs to be fully utilized. What you have is a design that either you are wasting the abilities of the Artemis to use special munitions or the flexibility of the MML system outside of the ability to shoot long and short range missiles from the same launcher. Even with those limitations you can load up on inferno rounds, Tandem Charge warheads, tear gas rounds, or any other number of specialty rounds that make the Word a real pain in the ass to every non Mech unit out there and even a good amount of mechs.

Comminus (C):  Jump Jets are again included on this variant. It features 3 MRM-10s and 2 Streak 6 SRMs with a couple ER medium lasers. CASE is included to protect the missile ammo. Of note this system also features a Guardian ECM suite to either reduce the effectiveness of opposing electronic enhancements or counter the opposition's ECM.

This Comminus configuration is a good candidate to be the poster child for short range combat, if it could get there fast enough. The increased difficulty of hitting with MRMs is mitigated to a degree by the VDNI implants and the C3i system as long as it has not been jammed. Overall the 2 Streak 6 launchers and Medium lasers are the most reliable firepower in the design.

Had the MRM-10s on this design, instead, been something else this could be an extremely lethal design. Light PPCs or even a pair of Large Lasers come to mind as a good substitute. Fortunately for the rest of the universe neither Cortland or anyone else in the Word of Blake came to this conclusion.

Luminos (D):  The Luminos configuration features 6 improved jump jets. That on its own makes it a much more capable design as long as the weapons are there to compliment. The design doesn't disappoint there either. It features a Heavy and Light PPC that is backed up by a pair of ER Medium and ER Small Lasers. That line up of firepower is very good considering the tonnage that has to be sunk into the Jump Jets.

The design runs warm because no additional heat sinks were added. Smart pilots will simply disengage to safety before the dangers of a possible shut down become likely. The only piece that I find missing from this design is an ECM system. With 180 meters of jump you could dictate where you want to in order to get good position to nullify their ECM.

Eminus (E):  This Grigori features a good mix of firepower at all ranges. At long range the design features an ER PPC and a Thunderbolt-15. For mixing it up at medium range the design carries 5 ER Medium Lasers and an ER Small Laser to fill out tonnage. CASE remains on the design to mitigate catastrophic damage. Ammo is placed in the arm along with the missile launcher. 2 additional heat sinks are installed to help deal with the heat produced by all of these weapons, but only if the pilot elects to fire their weapons at their intended ranges.

This is decent design carrying advanced technology in the form of the Thunderbolt launcher. That opinion I know won't be shared by everyone. An AMS has a modest chance of shooting it down and the ammo magazine only has 8 shots. The later issue is something that could be easily solved by sacrificing an ER Medium Laser.

Against Clan opponents there are only 25 Mech designs that feature an AMS system and 3 vehicles during the same period (which didn't hit production until the late Jihad or later). 12 of those are not likely to be encountered in any large number because they are unique, short run/or field refits, exclusively used by the home world Clans, or Late Jihad designs. The majority of the remaining designs are designs 50 tons or less. So odds are if you are shooting the Thunderbolt at a larger, less mobile, targets the AMS isn't going to be an issue that you will have to deal with.*

Against an Inner Sphere opponent, things are somewhat different. There are 80+ mechs and 20+ tanks that feature an AMS.  If you adjust those numbers for unique designs, short runs or field refits, and Word of Blake/FWL exclusive Mechs then the number is still 50+.*

The conclusion here is that the Thunderbolt isn’t a bad weapon to use against the Clans. However, it was a poor choice against the Inner Sphere units it would face the majority of the time. Any number of weapons from an Ultra-10, an additional ER PPC and heat sinks, to a Gauss Rifle (by way of dropping some of those medium lasers) would be a better use of space and overall design.

Caelestis (S):  This is a mixed tech design that features a Silver Bullet Gauss, Clan Streak 10 LRM, and a pair of Medium X-Pulse Lasers. It is another team player design that provides decent AAA and crit seeking via the Gauss rifle. The Streak launcher provides a decent (at least in terms of an Inner Sphere design) direct fire support weapon without waste. The pulse lasers and Streak will do an okay job of defending itself from anything that gets to close. CASE II provides superior survival in the case of an ammo explosion. I think one could design this to do the same job more efficiently with other weapons. However, by the same token, it isn’t horrible for what it is designed to do.

Exanimus (U):  This is the variant designed for underwater combat and features as most U variant Omni Mechs out there UMUs.  It is an all energy configuration with its punch coming from a Heavy PPC and an ER PPC. A pair of ER Mediums and ER Small Lasers round out the weapon load. An Active Probe also added for good measure.  M.A.S.S is included to help a MechWarrior survive should their Mech become disabled underwater.

I love me some underwater combat. I love it because when you need mass chaos and random **** happening, very little is better for that than rolling for breaches on each and every hit. The last thing you want though is a fair fight, which in my opinion, is what the Mech gives your opponent a chance at.

While C3i generally puts range in your favor, ECM and this other thing called torpedoes exist that this design lacks.  ECM is fortunately not mounted on most Mechs with UMUs. Torpedoes on the other hand are.  Most underwater Mechs with UMUs have them and the majority of Clan Omni Mechs definitely have them. Thus your effective range with one weapon is in most cases worse than your opponent's in this type of niche situation.

The HPPC in this case should have been either an LRT or a few smaller LRT launchers. That would have made the design quite a bit better. As is I'd never want to take this thing into the water unless I know my opponent doesn't have torpedoes.

Rufus:  Listen to this dude Rufus. He knows what he's talking about. The Rufus is the personal ride of Opacus Venatori member Rufus Black Bear. Rufus, like me, was of the opinion that the Infernus configuration could use more ammo. Unlike me, he decided to overhaul the rest of the design and keep the Artemis IV system hooked up to the launchers. Rufus also stuck a Supercharger on his Mech for additional speed. Rufus, please give my love to the princesses when you see them.

The Plasma Rifle is replaced by a Light PPC with a Capacitor to give it a comparable damage curve and better range, on a delayed firing cycle.  A Medium Variable Speed Pulse Laser is also included to add some punch at shorter range.  It also jumps just like the original.

I am torn about either the inclusion of the VSP instead of second Light PPC with Capacitor or maybe it is the other way around and it should have a second VSP. Either way it is a capable design, but a support unit/team player like its inspiration.

Tamiel:  Personal ride of Poltergeist Sigma (Precentor) Tamiel of the 47th Shadow Division. The design has Jump Jets, ECM, 2 Thunderbolt 10s, and a Snub Nose PPC. Like the Eminus, it lacks deep magazines so it doesn't have the ability to engage in a prolonged fire fight. However, for the 60 seconds that it has to be engaged in combat with all weapons on deck, it has the firepower of an Awesome. I suppose that has to count for something. Things probably were going poorly if Tamiel is engaged in combat. In the end, they did. The 47th was destroyed at New Home by orbital bombardment.

Final observations- The Grigori manages to traverse the full scale of good and bad design through its configurations. The use of the Light engine is obviously a choice based on survival over other considerations, such as speed. If I was to make any structural changes and break with the other designs in the Celestial series it would be with the Grigori.

Lacking a heavy cavalry Omni Mech the Word of Blake's Grigori stands to gain more out of the use of a higher rated XL engine than the Deva. A XL engine and Endo Steel swap ends up at a cost of only 2 additional critical spaces. The net benefit is the Mech generating enough speed to hit a +3 to hit modifier and none of the existing designs are compromised.

When I started this article, I was expecting that my perception of the Grigori’s value to be lower than that of the Deva. Instead I find it the other way around. Between the two, the Deva might be the less useful of the two heavy Celestial chassis. With only minute differences to the design as is, you could port any configuration on the Deva over to the Grigori at the cost of a more sensitive gyro. On the average that results in a BV reduction of 200 points per configuration.

So team, what are your thoughts on the Grigori?

*researched through the MUL


Iron Mongoose

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #1 on: 11 June 2017, 02:31:15 »
Tremendous work. Depth of research on things like the Thunderbolts targets is just lovely.

As to the mech, it is a go to Celestial for me, since it has some of the better power configurations. But Celestials will always be tricky since they aren't really built to operate like a normal mech; they rely too much on C3i and implanted enhancements, rather than just being intrinsically good and being better for the cool bonuses.
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Maelwys

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #2 on: 11 June 2017, 05:56:09 »
I dunno, I want to like it, but there always seems to be something off on it.

The Invictus goes for the mix and match weapons, which isn't necessarily bad, but its a slow heavy, its got 4 out of 6 slots in its RT as ammo, and its got an XL gyro. Something always seems to trip it up for me.

I've had luck with the Dominus, but there always seems to be something off about it. Bracketing and everything is fine, but it always seems to go like "I've got medium pulse lasers and I'm never using them because I don't want to jump close where they're super effective and the HPPC isn't..." Its slow enough that others can dictate to it, so the MPLs come in handy sometimes, but it always seems a bit off.

Like the others, the Infernus just seems a little off, but that's probably the lack of extra ammo for the MMLs. With Artemis there you might as well stick to Artemis SRMs and LRMs, and it feels...odd. Artemis does seem effective atleast, it boosts the average hit from 4 missiles to 6, so atleast it isn't as wasted as it does on a LRM5.

The Comminus I just have trouble with MRMs and their to-hit issues. But the missiles only have about 8 rounds of endurance, which the Streaks will stretch a bit, but only if you miss.

The Luminos I've had luck with, much like the Dominus. It moves faster than most expect, and its heat curve isn't too bad.

The Eminus I haven't used much because I'm not that big of a fan of Thunderbolts, but its basically a GR and ERPPC design with a battery of ERMLs for backup. If it can survive the XL gyro and slow speed, it should do fine. Assuming you hit with things....

The Caelestis is an odd ball, but its nice to see a Gauss Rifle, finally, even if its a Silverbullet. Its just for a mixed-tech, experimental-tech design, it just doesn't really wow me. And shouldn't it?

The Exanimus, I don't really have much experience with underwater combat, but I can't help but think that its going to be torn to pieces by units with LRTs. Of course, I pretty much think that about all Mechs underwater. I guess if you're going to go in to the water, an ERPPC is what you want if you don't want to have a Torpedo launcher, with a HPPC trying to knock holes in something so you don't have to worry about breach checks...

The Rufus. Still with the Artemis, but this time it manages to squeeze in an extra ton of ammo so you can swap in something special without feeling too guilty, but I have to agree. A second Light PPC with a capacitor instead of the VSP might make more sense (though then you'd have to shove something else in the head).

The Tamiel..yeah, 6 rounds per gun isn't enough, and 4/6/4 with a XL gyro isn't fast enough to let it get away with being a Snub-nose Harasser like the Preta Luminos could.

As for the Deva comparison, I always had it the other way. The Deva has an extra ton and a half to play with , and IIRC, an extra DHS built in. The Grigori has 2 more critical slots to play with, and the torso are much more open than the Deva (10 and 8 compared to 6 and 6), but I'm not sure that ever really comes into play in a manner that would make the Grigori capable of doing something that the Deva can't. 

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #3 on: 11 June 2017, 07:07:24 »
Splendid work on the article.
I'd never even thought about someone digging through the MUL to count AMS.   ^-^
No experience with the mech whatsoever, but I sure like thunderbolts and vspls - how many indirect fire weapons can deliver such heavy hits?
MMLs + VSPLs are a great combination for cheapskating the BV. 8)
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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #4 on: 11 June 2017, 09:02:27 »
I would agree that the Grigori is the one Celestial where I'd break protocol and fit an XL engine.  In my opinion the Celestial series is really hurting for a heavy cavalry design and with the Grigori and Deva doubling up on capability, speeding up the Grigori is the obvious call to me...

However, dealing with what we have rather than what I'd like, in of itself I think the Grigori is a decent design that's hurting for some good configurations.  The Invictus, for example, would be my go-to LRM support Celestial is that MRM 20 was replaced by an LRM 15.  Meanwhile whilst the energy based variants are certainly powerful, in most cases I'd pick a Deva variant over them to do the same job.  If I must field one, I usually make do with the Infernus which I find to be a useful jack of all trades.

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Firesprocket

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #5 on: 11 June 2017, 12:00:21 »
There is a fair amount of edited out of the final posting, but I see most people hit on some of those same items.

Tremendous work. Depth of research on things like the Thunderbolts targets is just lovely.
Thank you for your kind words.  I know that people's attitudes about the weapon covered a wide spectrum.  On a whim I was curious what the numbers were.  It makes quite a bit of sense that the weapon would be used by the Clan to swat the SRM volleys of an Elemental point.  But that wasn't what I found.  Conversely I though the number of IS designs was going to be larger, but the gap between the two was staggering.

I dunno, I want to like it, but there always seems to be something off on it.
When the Prime design seems so wacky it plants a seed of doubt, it isn't hard to come to that conclusion.  That is the opinion I held before I wrote the article.  Now that thought is reserved for select configurations.

I am not a fan of XL gyros in general so I have always considered that a strike against the machine.  After writing the article I think it still is.  If you port over to an XL Engine design that XL gyro should disappear.

My recommendations on some of the different variants is as follows:

Invictus:  Lose everything for an additional LRM launcher.  Flipping through all of the Celestials there seems to be no dedicated LRM boat.  You can use the weight savings and put in a few back up weapons for closer range and an ECM.

Dominus:  Either upgrade the Pulse to X-Pulse or make each a pair of medium lasers for the better range.

Comminus:  Within this configurations there is good ideas and a few bad ones, mostly those MRMs.  Apollo is absent on pretty much all of these designs because it had not hit production yet.  The penalty of an MRM launcher is offset by the advanced VDNI, but even then it is a poor weapon.  A battery of 3 LPPCs fits in the same place and allows the design to hit at longer range.  Alternatively you can carry the 2 Large Lasers and have the same range and the average damage potential of the 3 MRM launchers is still kept.  Personal preference would be to swap the large Streaks for smaller ones.   More attempt to hit and a little bit more available for the shots/ton per weapon.

Quote
The Caelestis is an odd ball, but its nice to see a Gauss Rifle, finally, even if its a Silverbullet. Its just for a mixed-tech, experimental-tech design, it just doesn't really wow me. And shouldn't it?
I agree with you.  I think that instead of a Streak 10 it should have been more menacing like a Clan ER PPC or Large Pulse Laser.  Either you have a hole puncher or another weapon that can feed into a AAA theme.
Quote
The Exanimus, I don't really have much experience with underwater combat, but I can't help but think that its going to be torn to pieces by units with LRTs. Of course, I pretty much think that about all Mechs underwater. I guess if you're going to go in to the water, an ERPPC is what you want if you don't want to have a Torpedo launcher, with a HPPC trying to knock holes in something so you don't have to worry about breach checks...
This is a safe and accurate assessment.  The HPPC should have either been an LRT-15/20 or a number of smaller SRTs.
Quote
As for the Deva comparison, I always had it the other way. The Deva has an extra ton and a half to play with , and IIRC, an extra DHS built in. The Grigori has 2 more critical slots to play with, and the torso are much more open than the Deva (10 and 8 compared to 6 and 6), but I'm not sure that ever really comes into play in a manner that would make the Grigori capable of doing something that the Deva can't. 
You would be neither right or wrong in your assessment.  The Deva is the more durable design based on the fact it doesn't have the XL gyro.  I am not a fan of the heavy duty gyro either though.  In almost every circumstance an armored, Compact gyro is going to be more efficient.  Both designs can pretty much do the same as the other.  The Grigori could certainly shine more if it was a hair faster to be a heavy cavalry mech.

What the Grigori can do, but fails to, is take advantage of the spacious pod space it has.  You can fit a larger caliber AC on there, but they don't do it.  It makes little sense in the grand scheme of things to build something for which you can squeeze quite a bit more out of the design, but fail to do so.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #6 on: 11 June 2017, 12:42:57 »
This was a great in-depth article, Fireprocket! I like how you examined the aspects of the design as well as various configurations' weaponry which some folks maybe not familiar with.   

When i originally was introduced to the new WoB OminMechs, i was taken back how usual the weapons layouts were.  However, i never clued into how much they were designed as team oriented machines.  Depending on each other.  Now looking at Grigori for instances, aside from unique configurations. It certainly does show signs this a machine that works well with friends.  I don't think there many designs that compliment each other so much or perhaps depends on team mates.  It was done with say earlier Hammer and Anvil, and other "teamup" machines.

With the C3i network, it does make it more effective than most as being inter-changable in Level II (demi-companies/reinforced lances) formations. 

I've come to like the Thunderbolt, frankly i was glad that the WoB machines employed them and other then unique weapons we hadn't seen in regular use before.  I know it's does not go well with having anti-missile system on your target or something fitted with a Republic's RISC Advanced Point Defense System which can be used to cover more than just the Mech that mounts the system shooting down missiles.  I still think a T-bolt packing machine still can do some damage.

I think the WoB heavies like the Grigori and the Deva were among my favorites of the WoB Celestial machines.  They weren't zombie machines and yet they were not lacking in weapons to give the enemy a good fight, even if they were meant to team up with another Mech verses being isolated and alone.

Thanks again, Firesprocket!
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Firesprocket

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #7 on: 11 June 2017, 12:55:48 »
I am glad you enjoyed the article Wrangler.  It is very easy to be dismissive of the design as it has a fair amount of minor flaws in each variant.  When I started doing the my research and trying to figure out why the design did something and failed to do another to improve on it, most stuff panned out that it either wasn't in production or likely produced in such little quantity that the item was missing for a good reason.  I could have expanded my research to include post Jihad designs for comparison, but it made little sense as in setting they were very unlikely to ever face those designs.

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #8 on: 11 June 2017, 17:19:40 »
Ok, having a proper keyboard, I can say what I really want. 

One of the funny things about the Celestials and their team play focus is the surprising lack of specialists, and of "boats" like we often see with other omnis.  No one questions LRM mechs are great team players in C3i situations, yet no Celestial mounts a pile of them alone.  There are also few with really long range, since most use PPCs for their ranged power, with few ER PPCs or GRs.  And, as has been talked about, there's not really a stand out cavalry option.  The Manai Domini are supposed to be this terrifying force that hits like an avalanche, but they just don't have that much tactical speed to maneuver.   The Gregori has a few jumping options, including an IJJ model, which address that, of course, which is part of why I like it (I like jumping, and with MD troops it's easy to hit even on the bounce).

But, the joy is that they're hard to upset.  Most any mech can be a brawler at least a bit, and few utterly lack some ranged power.  So, you flank a level II, they just turn and switch roles and rip right back into you.  When things are going well and you've got the enemy right where you want them, you do bemoan that you've got a spare SSRM on your ranged fighter, but when they're not, or if you just need to be flexible, you know that you've always got that spare SSRM to fall back on.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #9 on: 11 June 2017, 18:45:25 »
Yikes. The Grigori is much nastier than I initially figured.

That being said, having another article about a Celestial makes me wonder: Would anyone ever salvage one with intent to put it into combat (besides the Blakists themselves)? Far more likely they either have their techs rip them apart to supplement their stocks of the more miscellaneous spare parts (myomer, actuators, wires, etc.), or have them dragged off to be used as gunnery targets by their soldiers ("Wow, Major! Putting that Archangel on the shooting range is an awesome idea!" "Say that again when you can hit the damn thing more than half the time, Private!")

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #10 on: 11 June 2017, 19:31:24 »
Great article!

The Grigori Dominus reminds me Thunderbolt TDR-5SS load out. I rather pilot a Thunderbolt myself but it's a good indication of how dangerous the Grigori can be, especially considering Celestials work in packs using shock and awe tactics.

   
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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #11 on: 12 June 2017, 01:53:25 »
Superb article, loads of insight and thought put into it (the Thunderbolt vs AMS issue for example).  The Grigori is a team player for sure, but even with all the stuff that makes it harder to kill (light engine, small cockpit etc) there's that XL gyro going "HIT ME!", so it gives with one hand and takes with the other.

The variants are nice if in some cases a bit samey (A and D for example) and I'm not sure about the variants love affair with MRMs but its a good mech one the less. Once again, great write up!
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GermanSumo

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #12 on: 14 June 2017, 07:27:06 »
hhhmmm great article. thanks for covering one of the last missing wob mashines :D

the grigori... i never fully understood the whole celestials. and also with this one. it denotes roughly half his mass to weapon pods. but still with most configs i cant help to think: is that really it? the damage output is weird, heat management, too.... one of my friends had huuuuge successes at our table with them, but i totally cannot wrap my brain over how to play them or why their dmg output seems LOW compared to other mechs. well... i think, im getting too old for the game hehehe

marauder648

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #13 on: 14 June 2017, 14:53:11 »
The whole thing about the Celestial series is synergy. They are meant to work as a group, using and abusing their C3i as well as any VDNI shenanigans on their very good MD pilots to make a mess of other mechs. 
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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #14 on: 14 June 2017, 16:03:48 »
Exactly. You don't look at your Grigori and wonder how he hurts the enemy, you look at it and wonder how he can make it easier for the Seraph next to him to hurt the enemy. It's hard to explain, but when you get enough of those guys helping each other enough, the other side starts dropping like flies. Kinda like the Free Worlds League, but with marginally less Regulans.
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Nav_Alpha

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #15 on: 14 June 2017, 20:53:26 »
Kinda like the Free Worlds League, but with marginally less Regulans.

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gyedid

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #16 on: 16 June 2017, 01:51:19 »
Here is my attempt at making the Grigori into a heavy cav 'Mech, which I think is sorely lacking among the Celestials.  Very mixed bag if I say so myself.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=57362.0

cheers,

Gabe

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #17 on: 16 June 2017, 14:17:31 »
Not at home right now where I can pull up and compare my version to yours.  I know I kept the pod tonnage rough similar to the original.

marauder648

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #18 on: 17 June 2017, 01:09:22 »
Quote
Kinda like the Free Worlds League, but with marginally less Regulans.

And far less LRM spam :p  Which is actually a point, the Celestials for the most part lack indirect fire weapons save Thunderbolts.  They might have a smattering of MML's but IIRC not one of them mounts anything like an LRM-20.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #19 on: 17 June 2017, 12:21:20 »
I think the WoB tends to rely on conventional units for stuff like fire support. You know, LRM Carriers, towed guns, Aegis CAs, stuff like that.
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gyedid

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #20 on: 18 June 2017, 11:29:45 »
And far less LRM spam :p  Which is actually a point, the Celestials for the most part lack indirect fire weapons save Thunderbolts.  They might have a smattering of MML's but IIRC not one of them mounts anything like an LRM-20.

Which is one of the reasons why I stated in my upgrade thread that the Grigori's stock configs--not just the Grig, but all the Celestials, to some extent--have an annoying sameness about them.  With other factions, we're used to seeing a variety of configs that fulfill particular, distinct tactical roles, with LRM support usually being one; by contrast, the Celestials don't seem to take full advantage of Omni flexibility.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #21 on: 18 June 2017, 12:56:42 »
The surprise, at least to me, when you look at the different chassis of the Celesitals there are certainly some head scratching done on why 'X' is missing.  Here is just a short list of them:

  • There are a couple dedicate Thunderbolt , yet no LRM boats
  • The variants that contain a Gauss Rifle is fairly insignificant.
  • The number of variants that contain a HGR are non existent.
  • VSPs are underutilized
The last 2 can easily be explained away.  VSPs don't hit full time production until 3072 which is 3 years after the Celestials are first deployed in generous numbers.  The Heavy Gauss Rifle, while it exists as pod for the Hauptmann, exactly where it is manufactured as pod is unknown.  Star Corps makes the pods for the Manteuffel, but none of those planets ever fell to the Word of Blake.

The first two are a little bit of mystery for the designs themselves.  There is plenty of space on most of the Omnis, but they fail to use them.  In the case where you get a Thunderbolt launcher or a Gauss Rifle, they are woefully low on ammunition.  The explanation that potentially wipes all of that away is supplementing Omnis with regular Battlemechs.  There are plenty of designs already in production that would fill the rolls the Celestials fail to address with their configurations.  Perseus, Legacy, and Vanquisher just to name a few.  The only thing that I find muddled about that is the amount of mechs (or vehicles) that would need to be modified with VDNI is potentially staggering.  Otherwise, it would seem a lot surgery was going to waste.

Caedis Animus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #22 on: 18 June 2017, 13:55:59 »
I would be surprised if the Blakists couldn't produce the Heavy Gauss in pod form, considering they were the only faction other than the Terrans or Steiners to hold Hesperus II for more than a year.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #23 on: 18 June 2017, 18:35:23 »
I am a WOB player, and I find the Celestials, to be useful, but odd. I use them as fill in...... I see them as units that the WOB assigns to normal units to be a bridge, in a formation, to help the others work together, better.
I seem to get better mileage out of them, when I use them in that manner, rather than trying to build formations around them.....
As for the Examinus.... it does have an ERPPC, as well as the Heavy PPC, so it isn't as limited in range, but really, I see it more as a strike unit that can use a water approach, or retreat path, that gives it options, rather than a dedicated underwater fighter...... but that's me.

Overall, I find the Grigori to be a better "trooper" than the Deva...... with the Deva being more of a "command" mech or fire support. The Grigori is a mid range trooper, similar in role to the Centurion, or Enforcer, in older formations, with the WOB preference for PPC's over autocannons.

Nahuris
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #24 on: 21 June 2017, 23:15:26 »
Weapons do not have to be made in 'pod' form, it just takes a bit of c-bills and time along with blank pod to set up any weapon.  I do agree they do seem to be missing some staple weapons and load outs but . . .


 . . . Nahuris point about using them to fill in for gaps in L2s of traditional Blakist mechs.  You already have the Grand Crusader for LRM fire support and the Vanquisher for direct fire support, the Celestials can fill gaps in their L2s to cover the weaknesses.  I do wish we had a cavalry design, it would be interesting to see if they tried to clone the Timberwolf or go for the Lao Hu.  Just something 'missing' like the other Omni vehs.  I mean @70t if you go with the LFE, LFF armor and small cockpit you can get a base 5/8 with 97% armor and 25.5t pod space with 23 crits without messing with the arms.

As far as them being used after . . . well, they MIGHT be used in the Jihad as quick replacements since they can be easier than standard mechs to repair but we get told they are pretty much gone after the Jihad as symbols of power- like a eagle above SPQR or the legionnaire's helmet was a sign of Rome, or sailing ships were a sign of British naval power during the Empire.  You might have Word versions of things like Zeus, Guillotine or other common mechs survive well after the Jihad- particularly during the draw down since they would have been more advanced than most designs.  Protectorate mechs like the Titan and vehicles were taken into the Republic very easily- surprisingly the Bolla was included for all it was part of their Omni lines.  But the '58's Grand Crusader, 3060 Word mechs like Toyama, Initiate, Buccaneer, Red Shift and Vanquisher are a toss up depending on your view of how much of their symbols got stomped out.

Personally, I intend to use them as a fun story twist . . . if I can manage to recover one.  But I also intend to throw out that whole bit where you cannot change anything on a Omni or it 'breaks' the design.  By-by Small Cockpit when its merc salvage- just like the Republic yanked the C3i out of Bollas to make them ECM/C3s . . . and still Omni!
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #25 on: 22 June 2017, 00:00:46 »
I always assumed such a refit was considered factory level and would like be denoted by slightly different nomenclature.

I.E., "Grigori (S) C-GRG(S)-O". The S, in this case, standing for "Stripped".

marauder648

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #26 on: 22 June 2017, 01:50:47 »
Regarding the Celestial's problem of them being a bit samey in some configs, why not introduce a like Block II version and start adding things like VSPs?  Like have the Archangel Prime replace its heavy PPC with a heavy VSP, or replacing a snubby with a Medium VSP and a light or something.

Or would the combination of an MD pilot with VDNI + a VSP be a bit too much cheddar on one big plate?
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Mech of the Week: Grigori C-GRG-O
« Reply #27 on: 22 June 2017, 22:02:07 »
Considering Blakists didn't play fair, and especially not the MDs, I wouldn't be surprised.

Especially considering several Celestials already mount VSP. When they are built for MDs.

 

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